Your Play Experience b/t Update 45 and Update 46 with Subclassing and Scribing In Base Game

ZOS_Kevin · July 22

Hi All! We are looking to understand how Update 46 and the launch of Subclassing, and more recently making Scribing a part of the base game, may have changed the play experience and character build for you and the content you engage in.

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?
What game content was it?

Any and all feedback is helpful for us to relay back to the Combat Team. That way, they have anecdotal experience to add to their existing data. Thanks in advance to all constructive feedback!

(This is strictly to get feedback on your play experience between Update 45 and Update 46. We are not factoring Update 47 PTS feedback in this since it is not available to everyone at the moment).

Zoidsberg · July 22

- Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
No, it got worse. I am no longer able to "play" in many dungeons, as Arcanist Beams are clearing them before I can get a spell off.

jerrodbuffington · July 22

i can clear things faster. But it doesn't allow me to clear things that I could not clear previously.

I like class identity. I liked playing content in different ways with different classes. But now if im on a nightblade I can't compete with arcanist unless I use arcanist skills and arcanist is also better for arcanist skills.

Most content now is a little too easy. However the power creep is not insufferable in most cases. In the older vet content its as easy as normal now. We can ignore all mechs and beam. But having power is fun, i just wish all classes were equal and unique.

I feel like subclassing makes other classes pointless. It's not as fun, but i still like playing. Arcanist has the most cleave, the most damage, the most survivability all with the fewest skills. Subclassing didn't cause this. It just makes it stand out more.

During the zenathar event I could complete the rifts in craflorn with 1 other person. I done it on my arcanist with subclassing and could stand still and face tank all the damage from the gargoyle and kill him I. About 20 seconds. However on templar, using sublassing from assassination line, I had to kite, roll, use more skills, take 3 times as long to kill, and still die a quarter of the time. Subclassing didnt cause this, but it didnt help either because the same was true before update 46.

I would like to be able to play my nightblade, with nightblade skills and have enough damage and cleave to keep up with others

vulonsil · July 22

I don't really care for scribing personally, but it's an interesting feature to play with.

A lot of people seem to be against subclassing, but I personally have grown to like it, since I have many old characters with not so great setups (e.g. Nightblades) who are now more playable. I prefer farming stuff on my main since I can use recipes etc immediately and now it's possible in DLC content too. It's still not as good as an Arcanist, but good enough that I can solo some content I could not before on Nightblade, at least without it taking too long.

I recently tried to do a couple of IC/Cyro quests with a Nightblade who hasn't got subclassing yet and it was a pain to kill all the adds I aggroed without good aoe - I ended up just running through stuff half the time. I also enjoyed playing Warden for possibly the first time ever, since I got the Arcanist line on it; it never grew on me properly before. I'll have to try sorc again too, since it's another class I never really cared for.

So, at least for more casual play subclassing works great imo. Haven't made a real pvp build yet, so don't know how it works there, and I don't generally run anything harder than vet trial or dungeon hm content, but for those it's been fine.

Mattymoo92 · July 22

Subclassing is quite fun however there is a lot of skill lines that could be buffed to make more playstyles equally as powerful as the usual beam.

Soarora · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
No. I have been completing dungeon and trial trifectas for multiple years at this point across various roles. Subclassing has made accessibility to this content worse for me. My experience on PC/NA is that generally people don’t care about over-optimizing for dungeons but the majority of trial groups do care. With subclassing, the buff/debuff distribution has become shaken up in an unpleasant manner (builds that make no sense thematically, sacrificing comfort for maximum buffs/debuffs on the supports, can no longer play the builds I enjoy because I functionally cannot give the same buffs/debuffs as a support or the same amount of damage as a DPS), thus also meaning that as time goes on, most HM+ groups will gravitate towards only being able to have subclassed supports. This means I can no longer play how I want in the content I enjoy and must choose the content or drastically altering my builds into a shell of themselves (which my builds have been working perfectly well for the past several metas…). It is no longer “this class works the best for this content” and no longer “this person’s an x class main, they’re really good at that class so it doesn’t matter if it’s a little off meta” it’s “run these 3 lines or else I’ll get someone who will because you’re not being a team player”. I don’t want to be shamed and so I no longer desire to engage with the content. I was working towards becoming a better and better player, optimizing little bits here and there, striving to grow. Subclassing crushed this dream because I do not want to completely shift my mentality on how builds should be looked at (I liked working within the confines of a class, I like thematics, I liked figuring out what class is best for what content, etc. and now I can’t do that anymore and still be a good player). Subclassing feels very “sink or swim” and unfortunately I know other wonderful players who are kind and helpful who have also or are possibly going to cut down their playtime due to subclassing and its effects.

I can tell by how the questions are structured that this is biased towards “subclassing helped with accessibility” but I hope you all will consider collecting data on those who are now not completing content they were before.

MincMincMinc · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

I run numerically calculated builds on PvP and keep a good track on UESP. The shift from nosubclassing to subclassing gave me roughly a 20-30% boost in overall damage. The biggest red flag is that without restriction people are just stacking 3x damage lines. Utility lines are just going to be forgotten unless they are brought up to snuff damage wise. Ideally as talked about on PTS, all skill lines would host damage, tank, and heal/support equally to avoid a singularity meta happening. This would be where players all move towards only the same 3x skill lines because they are numerically the most efficient.

Scribing simply gave everyone an absurd burst healing soul that also grants the strongest healing buff in the game with major vitality. It is a no contest free win in duels if the other player doesn't have it. To top it off, the warden charm script is so far beyond strong that people are starting to make fun of each other for running it. Compared to the other class scripts it is like comparing an ultimate to a light attack..... I simply do not run it because I have played my sorcerer for 10 years and dont plan on swapping because of a borderline exploitable mechanic.

If anything the level of content in pvp took a nosedive if we want to talk on a diversity or uniqueness level. Now builds are just boiling down to one or two build paths. If you run a burst you will use XYZ, if you run a dot setup it will be ABC.

TBH now there is ALMOST no reason to have multiple characters. Subclassing could have just allowed us to choose any skill lines so people can experience the game on their main character. Current subclassing just feels like a QoL kick in the nuts. You want to change around one minor detail on your build like a script.....Oh you gotta drop everything on this character and swap and level on another character. Oh it doesn't have psijic gotta level that. Oh it doesn't have undaunted.....time to do that. The QoL just became a nightmare. Rip the bandaid off and just make the game One character, everything account wide already if you are planning on it.

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

Before I was a 2h stamsorc using the 3 sorc lines(basically just stormcalling because daedric and dark magic were useless).

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

I had no trouble before in BGs or solo/small man cyrodil, now I am just a 2h stamsorc that has access to the animal and assassination skill line passives. The only notable loss was darkdeal from dark magic.....but netch from warden filled the sustain gap, atleast until i realized I simply didnt need sustain anymore because sustain is given out like candy now adays. For the most part my skills are the same except my build now has a 8x more passives that are useful and a few "ACTIVE" skills that are only slotted for the PASSIVES they give me.......If you catch my drift.......Its almost like ACTIVE skills should be used for their ACTIVE portion, otherwise "building" is boiling down to who has the most "passives"

What game content was it?

BGs and solo 1vX or 2vX in PCNA cyrodil

Erickson9610 · July 22

My ability to complete certain types of game content has remained the same.
N/A
N/A
N/A

Here's some more specific feedback I have:

Subclassing
- I have swapped out Dawn's Wrath and Restoring Light for Storm Calling and Grave Lord on a casual Werewolf PvE build. It can clear veteran mode dungeons with a majority of the DPS done.
- I have kept Aedric Spear and Restoring Light and swapped out Dawn's Wrath for a specific Werewolf PvP build. It can last a very long time in duels.
- I haven't felt the need to Subclass at all for my Infinite Archive build, but I do use Scribing skills for it.
Scribing
- Werewolf cannot use Scribing skills as none of the Grimoires are for the Werewolf skill line. Please give us a Werewolf Grimoire so we can further customize our werewolf builds.
- In the human form, though, I use Traveling Knife with Multi-Target, Warrior's Opportunity, and Vulnerability as a debuff skill. I still use Biting Jabs as my spammable to make use of the increased Martial Damage the debuffed enemy takes.
- For the Infinite Archive, I use Banner Bearer with Mitigation, Wayfarer's Mastery, and Protection and keep it slotted on only one bar — I only use it to increase my resurrection speed via the Battle Resurrection passive for when my ally is down, which stacks with the bonuses from Master Ritualist (Restoring Light) and Spirit Mastery.

kilroy5250 · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
- No, I was already competing in the content I wanted to. After the patch the requirements by most end game trial groups increased dramatically. This required me to grind out the new subclassing "metas" to be accepted.

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
DK, Necro and Sorc Tanks.
DK, Arcanist, Templar DPS
Necro, Warden, Templar Healers.
After--- I have 1 DPS, 1 tank. I haven't had time to redo my healer.

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?
Subclassing on two characters to the detriment of using many. No additional content opened to me.

What game content was it? N/A

Subclassing is fun, however I prefer it the way it was. Classes have no identity now. Of my characters, most would all look the same anyways so there is no point to using them. The DPS is so high that quite a bit of content is trivial. The only content that is not trivial are the ones where Mechanics require you to slow down. Then that becomes tedious and not as much fun.

Scribing is an absolute must as the different skill lines break class toolkits for builds and you need it to make up the difference.

Friendly-assasin81 · July 22

"Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?"
No. The game has become more laggy and much more cpu hungry for no reason. Fps drops from 100- 15 in random places. Pvp went from 45-50fps around ballgroups to 8-12fps around ballgroups....
I have gone trough so many tests from your so called support its mad. Its clearly not my pc. Its something you made worse.
Tried multiple subclass builds. But stuff works better when just clean class.

kumenit_taeynav · July 22

-Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve?
i dont think ive ever avoided group content with strangers as much as i do now. ive had trouble with others using the arcanist beam since the class was introduced since it blocks my view of the battlefield and physically hurts my eyes when its contrasted with light blue environments such as ice caves. the light blue version from the skill styles pack is nicer on my eyes but that was a limited time offer available to those who had at least 2 level 50 toons so that doesnt guarantee that other players have access to that skill style or would want to switch because 1 group mate for an rnd asked them nicely to switch. now that beams are more common than ever with multiclassing i prefer to avoid group content altogether unless its with my small group of friends who know i have issues with the arcanist beam

-If so what was your build before u46?
my build hasnt changed that much with scribing or multiclassing. i already feel like i have everything i need to do what i enjoy doing without scribing and multiclassing. if anything some of the nerfs to class skills and passives from the multiclassing update have made things slightly more difficult and frustrating

-What did you change to your character build when u46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?
i dont usually struggle that much with the content i normally do and my build has barely changed. everything else is way out of my scope as someone who prioritizes solo play now that the arcanist beam is so popular

-What game content was it?
the stuff thats out of my scope as someone who now prioritizes solo play are the very difficult wbs in the necrom dlc, any trials, and vet hm dungeons since my small group of friends arent quite ready for those yet

personally i wouldve made it so that the skills from multiclassing were classified differently from their pure class versions. if players came up with a multiclass combo that broke the game then the multiclass versions of those skills got the nerf instead of blanket nerfs for everyone regardless of their interest in multiclassing. but alas here we are now....

ive also had some struggles in getting vault from the scribing system to fire off consistently. sometimes it just doesnt work at all no matter how much i spam it and nothing happens, i suspect its whenever theres a low arch or something overhead just in case if the game hiccups so i dont wind up stuck inside that arch. im able to vault off cliffs, across gaps, and into water so theres no issue there. at least put in a "something is obstructing this ability" type message the same way as when you try to put down an aoe or siege weapon on terrain that just doesnt work. i very much enjoy not getting stuck in tree branches when theres a hiccup but the ability comes off as broken and non-functional when i try using it and absolutely nothing happens

spartaxoxo · July 22

I haven't subclasses yet but I can tell you that it will not enable me to play content that I couldn't before because I could already do the type of hard content that I'm interested in doing. I'm not interested in trifectas because my schedule isn't conducive to doing them and I already had some vet dlc trial clears prior to the update.

I think it will probably be the case for a lot of people on forums because they are more invested users. For this question in particular you all may want to do a survey too.

SkaiFaith · July 22

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All! We are looking to understand how Update 46 and the launch of Subclassing, and more recently making Scribing a part of the base game, may have changed the play experience and character build for you and the content you engage in.
Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

What game content was it?

Any and all feedback is helpful for us to relay back to the Combat Team. That way, they have anecdotal experience to add to their existing data. Thanks in advance to all constructive feedback!

(This is strictly to get feedback on your play experience between Update 45 and Update 46. We are not factoring Update 47 PTS feedback in this since it is not available to everyone at the moment).

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

Absolutely improved after the update!

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

I have characters of every class but I only had specific builds for Warden, Arcanist and Sorcerer; the other classes shared the same build - typically Oakensoul + Druid's Braid, slotting Vigor as healing, Wall of elements, Elemental Susceptibility, and two class skills. I loved my Arcanist beam and had a crux generating build on her. My wardens were built to solo everything but they were starting to struggle: Gold Road wandering minotaur was stressful. Sorcerers were Heavy Attack spammers.

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

I have nerves issues, that's why I build around Oakensoul. Thanks to subclassing and scribing I was able to slot the same build on all my characters: preferably Animal Companions, Herald of the tome and Aedric spear. I give up Aedric spear out of the 3 on other classes. Plus I once loved Polar Wind heal but I am now preferring the same scribing heal I put on everyone and it works like a charm. Not forgetting the absolutely awesome Banner Bearers skill!
My build is now Sergeant's Mail + Deadly strike, so that my nerves can now have easy time: I can spam heavy attacks OR I can beam, OR I can spam puncturing sweeps, OR really I can mix these 3 types of playstyle so that my hands don't hurt and I can play for longer, completing more difficult content.
I hit around 60K on the dummy; it's not optimal dps BUT it's game changer in making me able to play more and more efficiently.

What game content was it?

I haven't tried yet content I didn't already complete before (I already had achieved a lot) BUT right now everything is waaaay less painful for my hands! I would dare to say it's not painful at all anymore! Which to me indicates Subclassing and Scribing are a HUGE success - I love them! Thank you

EDIT: also, before it was just my Warden able to solo everything. Now I can with any of my characters!

valenwood_vegan · July 22

As an alt-o-holic with way too many characters (like 36 across two accounts) and builds, my answer would be something of a mixed bag, but I'll try to keep it short and to the point.

Overall, as a long-time and pretty experienced player, I would say that my ability to play and complete content did not change due to subclassing. Subclassing did improve my best characters and they are putting out more dps than before, but I was already doing good dps and already involved in all types of pve content anyway. At this higher level of vet dungeons and trials, it feels like there's definitely more pressure now to subclass into the "right" build, whereas before you could bring any class and as long as you did well, no one really cared.

However, it made many of my other builds significantly worse (due to subclassing-related nerfs to base classes... for example, the sustain nerfs to dk were so bad that stamdk became a non-viable storage mule, and I had to convert my magdk to an oakensoul heavy attack build; and the changes to non-pet sorcs forced my sorc to subclass to remain viable). I have thus abandoned a number of characters I was using before because I'd just have to subclass them into the same "good" builds I'm already using, so what's the point?

Subclassing certainly opened up some interesting themed build ideas for casual play, like an elementalist using lightning, fire, and frost - but things like this are not very viable outside of easy dungeons, overland, and questing - so again, had little effect on what content I am able to complete.

I am not much of a pvp'er so can provide very limited feedback here, but I would say that it perhaps made the barrier to entry higher due to the new quantity and complexity of build options and the diminished ability to identify other players by their class and thus have a basic expectation of their abilities. I was doing some bg's and finally starting to improve before subclassing but I have stopped entirely, as pvp doesn't interest me enough to go back to the drawing board and figure out new pvp builds. I am not sure if I'll even participate in mayhem since I'm not prepared at all.

TL;DR - I am playing less overall since subclassing, because part of what kept me engaged was the variety of different characters and ways of playing. Ironically, subclassing feels like it's made this worse by further "forcing" builds to all feel fairly similar to each other in order to remain viable. And furthermore, there just isn't much new content lately so I feel like there's honestly kinda nothing to do with the more interesting but less viable themed builds I started coming up with, and I quickly lost interest in this part of subclassing.

Emeratis · July 22

My answer is a bit complicated. On one hand, I've been playing a lot more than I used to now that subclassing is a thing. Overland is absurdly easy for me and I'm having fun giving my characters builds that fit them for rp flavor and it's made me more interested in playing my alts again. For overland and more casual stuff it's really breathed new life into the game for me.

On the other hand, most of what I did before u46 in game and still a good part of what I do is achievement based hardmode/tri dungeon and trial progs. At that level of play, choices have become more rigid. I have played my bosmer nightblade since beta through the highs and lows of patch balance. After a decade, she is my favorite character to play. Similar to Soarora's comment, there feels like there is more pressure to swap over to what the group needs now and not what we enjoy playing. My group is amazing and kind and has not forced anyone to subclass who doesn't want to, but we have opted to knowing it puts a lot less strain on the group to do so. Luckily one of the nb skill lines are meta so I can still play the character I love, but I do not enjoy the channel heavy beam which is overperforming pretty much every other dps build. While subclassing has brought groups more options here, I do agree with others who say it has not given us the ability to clear anything we couldn't already before the patch. Sure, we might get a prog done a little faster but I also see people not playing what I know they enjoy and have played for years and enjoying trials/group content less.

Ideally monoclassing and subclassing would both be viable and on an equal playing field and people could choose what they enjoy. I know that's difficult and it may take a while to get there but I would like to see it happen. I wanted to with my post address the schism that is casual/overland content where your imagination is the limit and the harder content in the game where groups need their buffs and debuffs and there are checks that need to be met. Part of this has been a problem created by earlier balancing choices like when toughness as a buff was removed from war horn and given to warden as a passive for them to see more play which now make those subclassing lines required or desired somewhere in a group. Another part of this is over and underperforming skill lines which could be more priority to adjust (I personally prefer buffs to nerfs anyday of the week just saying). Unfortunately a lot of our data as players are either anecdotal or from sources that require opt in/player uploads like esologs so we don't have a full picture of data like some games that have data trackers/sites for all data. I assume zos has internal data we don't and I'm hoping with discussions like these and looking at information it can help with balancing things for the future.

Edit to add:
Scribing has honestly felt negligible at best from release to now. It could be really cool and do a lot more but as it is I don't often use scribing skills and when I do they are kinda a nonfactor in things. It makes me sad, I want it to be good so badly. Biggest glaring issue is the class mastery scripts are so unbalanced and for some classes are straight up useless.

Cooperharley · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

I have never had problems completing content that I am interested in. The introduction of subclassing gave me even more power and made said content slightly easier if anything. The most important thing that it did though was delay main character burnout. I've never been a person that enjoyed playing alts as a completionist, especially in a game like this where there are so many over-the-top monotonous skill lines to re-level (eg, excavation/scrying, psijic, mages guild, legerdemain). It allowed me to play with a certain build and move on from there if I started to become burnt out.

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

I main a sorc now on PS5 and just used a DPS build that Skinnycheeks had put together prior to that. Now I utilize daedric summoning/herald of the tome/assassination.

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

Sorcs already felt good, but the damage components of assassination on top of the arcanist's beam allowed me to have more cleave damage than anything. I've also created a couple "fun" builds, namely a zookeeper type with grave lord, daedric summoning and animal companions that, while not very powerful, is great fun seeing lots of minions running around. For example, I've always been able to contribute solid damage to my dungeon trifecta groups and get spirit slayer/flawless conqueror with ease, but now those things are simply faster.

What game content was it?

Solo & group PVE

Edit: To add though, I do want to say while subclassing IS an interesting addition to the game, and i enjoy it, I will likely be taking a bit of a break again. I've been here since 2014 and played on every platform. Player retention long-term is still something I see is not really being touched and frankly, not even discussed remotely. Sure, subclassing freshened my current gameplay loops up by allowing me to switch up HOW I approach content, but it didn't add more meaningful gameplay loops, long term rewards and progression, etc. We're still heavily focused on monetization versus rewarding long term players, we still have 3600 CP with the last 2100 of that being entirely meaningless, and we still place our best assets possible in the crown crates versus as earnable rewards with new content that's approachable for everyone. Foundational issues are still present and not often being discussed. Anytime we get a dev interview or podcast, it's often nostalgic and inspirational about where the game started and never a sit down discussion about "hey here's where we are, here's what we're happy with and not happy with, here's what we're thinking for the next year and here's where we'd like to be in 2-3 years." I see nothing is really changing in U47, typical nerfs and stuff but no changes to itemization, no buffs of the hundreds of sets that aren't used, still the same old lack of communication from our combat team, etc. We'll see how it all looks in U48!

Arthtur · July 22

[*] Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
It become worse. I was punished for preferring to play a DK instead of a DK with a beam. I never had much trouble with content before but patch 46 made playing miserable at best. All that because you had to nerf DK sustain by 50% and you barerly did anything to adress that.
And the worst of all that it sounded like the Dev team didnt even think that players would prefer to keep their classes as they are.

In addition Im still baffled how you are trying to do everything in the name of accessibility but simply refuse to make better tutorials, make it easier to see in game what skills can somebody get, make better UI that better shows impact of somebody choices like buffs or debuffs or, you know, make HA builds actually a thing instead of some akward builds that dont fit the game systems (bar swapping) and relying on mythic items just to be "viable".
I still remember how my biggest problem at the start of the game was lack of stamina heal because i wasnt intrested in PvP so i had no idea Vigor existed... That was before U35 so yeah. Getting that made my gameplay so much better and it had nothing to do with ZOS. Just some random video on YT.
Also You can't raise a floor that doesn't want to be raised.

And at the end... Right now the patch U46 made my feel this is the last year of ESO for me because im simply not welcomed here and im getting tired of nerfs that dont make any sense or when you only look at top 1% when making those changes while ignoring the rest.
Oh and also how after 3 years you still didnt finish hybridization or event start the alchemy "rework". And hundreds of useless sets... well, kinda a lot after all those years.

Frayton · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

No.

I gave up on it bc the grind to level everything just to even try it properly is too long. Also, I gave up on endgame and play casually now so there's no point in bothering with either system.

ZOS_Kevin · July 22

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think it will probably be the case for a lot of people on forums because they are more invested users. For this question in particular you all may want to do a survey too.

The team wants just general commentary right now. We've ask this similar question in a few places just to get a rough idea from a few communities. It came up in a conversation yesterday and we wanted to just get some quick takes out there without going through the whole survey process. We do have a more formal survey in the works to include a few combat related items, but we'll notify folks when that is ready.

haynes.jgrkpreub18_ESO · July 22

Something needs to be done with Arcanist. EVERYONE and their mother plays Arcanist as a subclass... including me! It's just too OP right now.

MincMincMinc · July 22

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think it will probably be the case for a lot of people on forums because they are more invested users. For this question in particular you all may want to do a survey too.

The team wants just general commentary right now. We've ask this similar question in a few places just to get a rough idea from a few communities. It came up in a conversation yesterday and we wanted to just get some quick takes out there without going through the whole survey process. We do have a more formal survey in the works to include a few combat related items, but we'll notify folks when that is ready.

Well quick take TLDR:

Subclassing power creeped the game by 20-30% so i suppose dungeons are easier
Subclassing is much harder for new players to make choices since it is so open ended with absolutely terrible choices available next to game breaking choices in skill lines
Scribing is a character bound nuisance that has game breaking scripts like warden class mastery
The worst of it all is that subclassing as it stands is pushing the game towards a singularity where all builds are starting to converge to the same meta with very minor differences.
PvP for anyone who knows what they are doing has boiled down to Stormcalling, Animal, Assassin, or Aedric spear........ This is only 4/21 skill lines primarily being used. These lines in particular have such potent passives vs other lines which offer next to nothing. For example you have lines like daedric summoning, which isn't designed to work on its own and requires damage from other lines. Or Dark magic "shield sorc" playstyle which mainly relied on Frags+ Curse(from daedric) + MagesWrath(from stormcalling) + Ward(from daedric). Why run these discombobulated skill lines when you could just pick 3 fully functional lines on their own?

EACH skill line individually needs to portray a unique playstyle and stand on its own for subclassing to work.

Stormcalling is a good example because of how coherent it is. Right now it hosts raw responsive damage, it heals when aggressive, and it has tankiness through mobility which feeds back into the response ready to go raw damage. This coherence has been the sole essence of Stamsorc for nearly a decade now
Daedric summoning and dark magic are bad examples. Because their main playstyles of petsorc(summoning) and shieldsorc(dark magic) require skills from other lines to work
Dark magic(old school magsorc) needs curse, ward, and mages wrath if you want to maintain the playstyle.
Daedric summoning needs alot of work, more overall damage based around the pets and tools to boost/use the pets. Like encase/shroud could be repurposed for pet damage boost and a tank/support group heal. DAEDRIC mines could be on DAEDRIC summoning which would pair well for kiting/peel purposes while you focus on managing pets. Clanfear could be much tankier and be used as a taunt. Scamp could have an execute morph. Bound armaments could be more of a spammable for the line.

Jamestlw · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

Yes.

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

DPS-Banner Acanist
Tank-DK,Warden, Necro, or Sorc (all with scribing usually Ulfs/Soul burst/Heroism Trample/Shield Throw)

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

Sub-classed:
DPS (generally)- Dawns Wrath, HoT, Assassination (arc class mastery banner)
Tanks (generally)- Earthen Heart, Winters Embrace, Soldier of Apocrypha (same Scribing as pre u46)

Completing harder content with more causal groups has become much more accessible. I am able to bring more to the comp with sub-classing than I was before. Also I can easily change what buffs/de-buffs I bring depending on what the group needs.

What game content was it?
Dungeons/Arena's (Vet,HM,Trifecta, & Duo Runs) & Infinite Archive

Stamicka · July 22

I personally didn't have trouble completing content before update 46, but update 46 definitely stripped my motivation to even enter content. The amount of damage that's currently possible makes things much more boring in my opinion. The power creep is making even Veteran content feel like overland. It's not very rewarding.

I've said it many times before, accessibility is great, but trying to achieve it through power creep isn't a great way to go about it. Accessibility has actually worsened in environments like PvP due to the fact that so much knowledge and experience is required to even make a high performing build. In PvP right now, properly built veterans have never been more powerful compared to more casual or new players. The people who are stacking 3 damage skill lines that work well with each other will absolutely melt the people that are just mixing and matching skill lines for fun.

Skill lines on their own are poorly balanced with each other due to how the game was designed. When you allow something like subclassing in environments where a player's performance matters compared to others, you're just creating more ways for people to fall behind. If choices were more balanced with each other, players could be free to build how they want. Since that's not the case, curiosity and creativity will be punished, because there's far more unviable skill line combinations than there are viable ones.

colossalvoids · July 22

Can't answer the questions asked as my issue with subclassing isn't about completion of content. It's about philosophy and direction, which I don't really see or align with whatever they might actually be apart from marketing speech "play however you want" as we were doing the same thing prior and classes had direct identity / fantasy, apart from being mechanically different (until recent years which made all of them more or less shades of the same).

I vividly remember one of the citations from the combat team years back, that we should easily and precisely determine what class we're going up against and now I'm quite puzzled to how this philosophy should work nowadays when there's no pure classes to expect, to begin with. How pure classes should compete in output with custom build ones that combine better specialized kits together, how there can remain any identity going forward when everything getting neutralised to fit the balancing act. For the first time in years I don't even see the solution to the issue. It's just there, affecting everything from without an indication or even intention to do something with it.

Addietlw · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
-yes

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
-Tanks: warden and DK with scribing were my favorite to play but I had all of Hyperioxes tank builds (scribing Goading Throw, Warding burst, Leashing soul, Ulfsild's Contingency and Trample)
-DPS I was on an arc for things (scribing arc banner with class mastery)
-Healers I had all classes as well but preferred warden, arc, nb and templar (scribing Trample and Soul Burst)

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?
-Tank: Earthern Heart/Winter's Embrace/ Soldier of Apocrypha
-Healer: Green Balance/Siphoning/Restoring Light mostly but sometimes Daedric Summoning or Curative Runeforms depending on what the group comp needed
-DPS: Herald of the Tome/Assassination/Dawn's Wrath or Grave Lord
scribing skills were all the same as before because I already owned it with West Weald chapter

What game content was it?
vet Trial farms, Dungeons (HM, Trifectas, Pledges and Duo runs) Arenas, and IA

So far I have really enjoyed Update 46, it has been a lot of fun with my dungeon group trying different things and optimizing better. U46 really didn't change most of my builds, looking at most of my setups I only use a couple of class skills at any given time. Subclassing has just made me be able to bring more to a group passively and buff or debuff wise, instead of bringing a meh skill line that doesn't bring a lot to the table for your role. Subclassing just lets you bring more for your specific role- more healing, more damage or more tankiness. It's been great.

Freelancer_ESO · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

Not significantly as of yet. I'm still in the process of unlocking Subclassing fully on my main account and Scribing on my alt account.

Once I've got everything I can see myself possibly using unlocked I'll start finalizing new builds but, that will still be a month or two down the line.

I'm not sure how much I will be chasing optimization/if I'll be using the characters that chase optimization for anything outside of their "job" as I really care a bunch about the visuals of my character and I'm not sure how much optimization is going to really align with the visuals I want.

Generally speaking, I've preferred for my Elder Scrolls characters to be quiet heroes rather than flashy heroes which may not align well with some of the optimized builds.

elinien · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?
No.

These questions seem to imply classes alone weren't "good enough", which is rather weird messaging. I've never had a problem clearing content with any of the classes, and I've played all of them. Subclassing is mainly just a novelty to me after so many years of playing, not some revolutionary helper. If anything it's made things like PvP more unpleasant.

I realize the following question doesn't really apply since I said no, but I'll answer it anyway...

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?
I have 19 characters, but my primary three are a Nightblade DPS, a Templar Healer, and a Necro Tank. While I have experimented with subclassing on other characters, I've kept these three as is because I like them as they are and have no issues with them.

Finisherofwar · July 22

Speaking generally I think subclassing has been overall good and ZOS should not try to tone things down in subsequent patches from the power level we are at now. I think nerfing is rarely the answer, buffing up older content (pve enemies) is the better move and especially buffing up the upcoming content instead of nerfing the us the player.

Stamicka · July 22

colossalvoids wrote: »

I vividly remember one of the citations from the combat team years back, that we should easily and precisely determine what class we're going up against and now I'm quite puzzled to how this philosophy should work nowadays when there's no pure classes to expect, to begin with.

Yea this is a really good point that's especially relevant for PvP accessibility.

So when I was new to ESO PvP, I like many others, thought that magsorcs were overpowered. It's one of those classes that I would see complaints about constantly. Now it was a strong class no doubt, but I was able to learn certain things that made it very easy to handle magsorcs in the long run. Everything became somewhat predictable. For example, at the time Crystal Fragments stunned, but there was a very clear indicator when an enemy player had one ready. I also developed an internal sense of timing for when a Daedric Curse was about to explode due to encountering it often. So since sorcs tended to have a predictable kit and play style, I gradually learned to block or roll at times to prevent dying to either a Daedric curse frag combo, or a Dawnbreaker Curse combo.

Now really experienced sorcs knew how to mix things up or time things in a way to still get kills. Some level of predictability was absolutely crucial when it came to me learning how to PvP though.

Subclassing takes this away. While skills still have indicators, there's so many more things for newer players to die to. In many cases they won't see clear patterns that help them learn. They might get shalked into a double merciless resolve, or defiled and DOTed down by a Necro/DK combo... who knows, a lot is possible.

This absolutely isn't to say that I'm against burst in PvP as a whole, I think it's great. However, PvP will now be more difficult to learn and to get into now that subclassing is in the game. That's a really bad thing for a game that's losing almost all of its veterans. There were better ways to bring burst and lower TTK back into PvP, subclassing did it in a very unhealthy way and PvP is worse for it.

Credible_Joe · July 22

I have not engaged with the subclassing system yet, but I do have feedback about how it's affected one of my characters. Overall, I've never struggled to participate in any type of content; I have the resources on my account to adjust my builds as needed. So subclassing wouldn't be a factor in content completion or participation in my case.

That being said, my main toon is a Necromancer, and has been affected by the update. Several threads since U46 have been made in regards specifically to the changes with the number of combat pets and the pet cap. Particularly for Necromancers. While this thread is taking feedback, I'll mention it again here.

To summarize, there are oversights with the summon priority system introduced in U46 that makes Necro problematic to play, or even to subclass into. The intention described in the notes was for higher-value summons to displace lower value summons.

Yet, in many cases, active necromancer skills fail to cast simply because there are too many corpses. Particularly blastbones, making Animate Blastbones ultimate almost entirely unusable. Even solo.

I've submit a support ticket with video attached demonstrating this issue: 250721-002555

It's dangerous to subclass into Necromancer if you have any other pet abilities in your kit, as corpses flood every instance and easily hit pet cap. I suggested a while back to refactor corpses into a necro crux equivalent, but any solution that resolves the ambiguous priority of corpses as pets would be welcome.

Cominfordatoothbrush · July 22

Did your ability to play and/or complete certain types of game content improve after the launch of Update 46?

Hard to say as I was already completing trial/dungeon hardmode/trifectas before the update, but I would say it's mixed. If the higher dps from subclassing allows you to skip mechanics that you couldn't before, then I would say it is faster, but otherwise a build with more dps isn't gonna have much effect on whether people can properly perform mechs. Y'know like higher DPS isn't gonna make that one guy do deluge. DPS also seem squishier now, so deaths occur more often. You could argue that those people could keep skill lines with defensive passives they lost to maximize damage, but in this case these people's ability to clear content has decreased due to individual classes damage being nerfed after they were found to be overpowered with subclassing. In that particular situation it's a lose/lose, and an even greater loss if you want to play the original classes. This could be fixed by finding good ways to decrease the effectiveness of subclassing while leaving the classes themselves unchanged or mostly unchanged from U45.

I would like a page to be taken from other multiclassing systems, like BG3/DND, where there are some effective combos but it also means you don't get access to high level abilities/passives. If you multiclass your level 12 paladin (using this example because I love DK so much I actually try to play my main in other games lol) with sorcerer, you are not a level 12 paladin and sorcerer. You are a level 6 sorcerer and level 6 paladin. Or whatever distribution you choose.

If so, prior to the launch of Update 46, what was your character build?

Little bit of everything. I would either tank (every class), little dungeon healing, or dps, preferably as DK

What did you change to your character build when Update 46 launched that allowed you to play or complete content that you had trouble with before?

As stated whether content is easier is dependant on whether you can just skip mechanics, in my experience. But in these cases, more group buffs being stacked on tanks and healers (so incorporating skill lines like daedric summoning, earthen heart, or soldier of apocrypha on tanks for example) is a considerable boost, and combining skill lines on dps that give major buffs/pen/crit damage has reduced the need for support sets that can additionally be replaced with buffs sets there wasn't room for before - or just foregoing roles like a zenkosh in favor or another full dd.

This has the unintended side effect of removing the dynamic from endgame group comps where certain classes even if not meta for the situation could be played as a support dps. And this really just isn't much of a thing anymore, builds are simpler and have less variety at this level.

Hopefully I'm not being too general, I've been trying different combos on every role as needed. To put it shortly, no I don't feel like I can clear any content that I couldn't before, dps is just higher and the groups can make some new mech skips.

On a purely subjective note, I'll add that this is also not as fun to me as before. I still enjoy the game but I prefer characters being thematic to this system, but you can't really do that in an optimized group anymore. Theoretically there are cool thematic builds you can do with the system, but this is actively discouraged if you want to play endgame. There is ironically also a harder dps meta than before. My biggest hope going forward with subclassing is changes are made to bring parity to the overall effectiveness of single and subclassed builds