Why is the answer to ballgroups always sets?

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · July 20

Oh look, another set that is dead on arrival and will do nothing to stop 12 players abusing combat scaling.

Blackrim · July 21

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

So every Ballgroup DD would slot Spellshredder to get incredible 2% more dmg against solobuilds using only resolving vigor over mechanical acuity, vicious death or other sets increasing dmg much more often for every group member?
.

Ima be honest fighting solos you don't even need CA or a proc/bb buff set. They just melt from subclassing now

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 21

It's so funny how some people seem to think one person should be able to kill or entirely invalidate the playstyle of 12 other people by being gifted sets or items or skills by the developers with little to 0 actual effort required on their part.
But God forbid 12 people utilise the mechanics already available in the game to coordinate themselves to fight 12v50+ because that shouldn't be allowed because it's ruining the game.

Or you hav people demanding ball group killer sieges so they even less have to pvp but sit 2 miles away and be able to one shot 12 people.

Like you can already kill ballgroups with negate, bomb and siege, we are doing this every evening in a four man group, its easier then ever before.
But i guess instead its easier to ask the devs to make the game easier 😬

Hope we are all really getting the vengeance so this is finally over with the nail in the coffin

MincMincMinc · July 21

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

My suggestion was not to keep hots/shield stacking infinitely but to create a shared cap for multiple or all hots and shields.
I prefer both fighting and making build for ballgroup with 4 times the same hot over fighting a ballgroup with 10 different hots or shields.

Once a group composition with different hots got theorycrafted other ballgroup will copy it and it will not stop current ballgroups who are willing to spend much time minmaxing but gatekeeping any groups with changing members and less time.

A cap like this could function similar. My main drive for the no effect stacking is for the performance aspect and anti meta aspect. For instance being run down by 5 people with sloads soul meta. The no stacking has a drastic change on solo gameplay which hardly exists for low and mid tier players.

You do have a point where the zerg vs ballgroup scenario can suffer, but math wise there can be alot of playroom depending on the scale of skills, scenarios, etc. Which I dont think we can get through the numbers on the forums for either of us to change minds on that. Power creep and additions to the game do help your case more and more with hot sets being added and new skill lines etc.

Any proposed cap concepts? only 10 and the last one drops off? Maybe hots get pooled and capped at XX%hp/s?

Cap should be lower than 10 which is still a lot and probably what smalleror negligent ballgroups reach while still farming everyone so more like 5.
They could drop the oldest or just not apply new hots, both would be better than now, even when they always drop weakest one keeping the stronger ones it would be much better than now.

Capping the total healing rather than the number of hots would be good solution too but should be an absolute value rather than relative/percentage of hp as otherwise 50k hp gets even more attractive.

Itd have to be based on %hp. To account for power creep. Although zos has done a decent job at not adding too much health to the game. Most pvp builds have been around 30k for about 6-7 years I think.

IMO tristat armor glyphs should be balanced out by now. Food/drink should be reworked aswell

How does %hp account for power creep other than increasing it when a 60k hp player could get twice as much healing+shielding (by allies) as a 30k hp player?
A ballgroup with higher health would not just be harder to burst but also better outheal sustained dmg.
Stacking hp should mainly increase hp pool protecting against burst and not make more things scale with it than already do.
60k hp players are already hard enaugh to kill.

Sorry, the concept of scaling the cap based on hp was to account for power creep. Say the game suddenly jumps everyone to 100khp because zos releases a new mythic. Your original cap of hots based on 30khp combat makes no sense now. It has to be based on something. Maybe max stam/mag or maybe they repurpose health recovery to be a cap for hots.

Kickimanjaro · July 21

Will this set increase the damage done from Siege weapons?

If not, do you think it should?

Markytous · July 21

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

It's so funny how some people seem to think one person should be able to kill or entirely invalidate the playstyle of 12 other people by being gifted sets or items or skills by the developers with little to 0 actual effort required on their part.
But God forbid 12 people utilise the mechanics already available in the game to coordinate themselves to fight 12v50+ because that shouldn't be allowed because it's ruining the game.

Or you hav people demanding ball group killer sieges so they even less have to pvp but sit 2 miles away and be able to one shot 12 people.

Like you can already kill ballgroups with negate, bomb and siege, we are doing this every evening in a four man group, its easier then ever before.
But i guess instead its easier to ask the devs to make the game easier 😬

Hope we are all really getting the vengeance so this is finally over with the nail in the coffin

I used to despise the idea of ball groups entering Cyrodiil and lagging everyone out as a steamroll of aoe heals and deals. Over time, though, I have noticed the voices who aim to kill ball groups are the ones who already feel entitled to "1vX" culture and simply want to be able to murder 12-man groups solo as well to feed egos. I think I've finally taken the side of the ball groups, as the player agency of the new player isn't taken into account in today's iteration of PVP while the ball group takes that agency and pumps it to 1000%. Every member of that group matters and has an important role to fill, played at top level mechanically and setup-wise (the bar isn't that high).

Vengeance solves this overall. Players who want to feel useful (not get blown up in 2 seconds) and players who know the drill, want to assemble a squad and start shredding, will both have a role with agency. Agency is the key word. Too many players are vying to take agency from one another. The problem with ball groups, to me, is the lag they cause. That's purely a server infrastructure issue. If the issue is that ball groups are unkillable - well then how killable do you want an optimally set up group of players syncing their comms and skills together?? Bombing is dumb because it saps agency from players banding together to try and do something. Ball groups is dumb because there's no answer to it.

Conclusion: Currently Cryrodiil is dumb on all ends, unapproachable for new players, stale for veteran players and lags when played optimally. I don't care anymore lol

Blackrim · July 21

Markytous wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Vengeance solves this overall.

The problem with Vengeance is the playerbase for Cyrodiil will literally dissolve in two months after trying the new game mode out. It seems fun and all for a week but it will kill PvP marking a huge blow to ESO's playerbase.

I believe buffing inactive subclasses to compete with Animal Companion would be way more effective. The goal of ZOS according to their statements is to have players "Play how they want" essential or so to speak. This aligns with that goal

The solution would be to make new siege equipment and buff damage subclasses that are not on par with Animal Companion for PvP.

Markytous · July 21

Blackrim wrote: »

The problem with Vengeance is the playerbase for Cyrodiil will literally dissolve in two months after trying the new game mode out. It seems fun and all for a week but it will kill PvP marking a huge blow to ESO's playerbase.

I believe buffing inactive subclasses to compete with Animal Companion would be way more effective. The goal of ZOS according to their statements is to have players "Play how they want" essential or so to speak. This aligns with that goal

The solution would be to make new siege equipment and buff damage subclasses that are not on par with Animal Companion for PvP.

PVP is basically already dead in ESO, friend. My wife and I sit in 8v8 BG Group queue for 3 hours to no match. GH is pop locked (300 player cap) and Blackreach is empty. IC is always empty with maybe 30 players at one time in the CP instance. Check the Alliance War AP contribution page. You may get 500 players on the leaderboard? Being generous. Vengeance has a pop cap of 800+ and it was 2 bar/locked on all factions during each test week so far. 2 months of that is like a Cardiogenic shock to ESO PVP, even if it dies after. GH is 1 bar dead during the week and gets its 300 with no spillover to Blackreach on weekends. Nobody plays.

MincMincMinc · July 21

Markytous wrote: »

I have noticed the voices who aim to kill ball groups are the ones who already feel entitled to "1vX" culture and simply want to be able to murder 12-man groups solo as well to feed egos.

A lot of people have a hatred for 1vX, and try to remove all the solo player mechanics that level the playing field. However they fail to realize that if low or medium tier players are never able to play solo.....they are inevitably just going to leave the game. We all know that guilds grow popular and eventually crumble. If the only pvp newer players can experience is guild zerg combat without ever being able to break away solo, the population will only decline when that guild folds.

Back in the day cyrodil was also a far better learning environment like vengeance. Ganking was more possible and a popular entry into solo pvp, now basically impossible because players move FTL on mounts with near infinite stamina. Groups combat was limited with the shear amount of over time effects, buffs, and set bonuses available to stack. Objectives like resource nodes or side keeps/towns were contested more with the higher population caps.

YandereGirlfriend · July 21

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

Will this set increase the damage done from Siege weapons?

If not, do you think it should?

Definitely not.

Siege is already wildly overpowered vs. the effort involved. It doesn't need any more buffs.

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 21

Markytous wrote: »

Blackrim wrote: »

The problem with Vengeance is the playerbase for Cyrodiil will literally dissolve in two months after trying the new game mode out. It seems fun and all for a week but it will kill PvP marking a huge blow to ESO's playerbase.

I believe buffing inactive subclasses to compete with Animal Companion would be way more effective. The goal of ZOS according to their statements is to have players "Play how they want" essential or so to speak. This aligns with that goal

The solution would be to make new siege equipment and buff damage subclasses that are not on par with Animal Companion for PvP.

PVP is basically already dead in ESO, friend. My wife and I sit in 8v8 BG Group queue for 3 hours to no match. GH is pop locked (300 player cap) and Blackreach is empty. IC is always empty with maybe 30 players at one time in the CP instance. Check the Alliance War AP contribution page. You may get 500 players on the leaderboard? Being generous. Vengeance has a pop cap of 800+ and it was 2 bar/locked on all factions during each test week so far. 2 months of that is like a Cardiogenic shock to ESO PVP, even if it dies after. GH is 1 bar dead during the week and gets its 300 with no spillover to Blackreach on weekends. Nobody plays.

Wait your cyrodiil is pop locked?

React · July 21

CalamityCat wrote: »

Disclaimer: I'm not a super experienced/knowledgeable PvPer, but I'm curious what would happen if instead of making suits to try countering ball groups, they added new properties to the different siege weapons instead?

Alternatively I wonder if there could be a limit on how many HOTs/shields you can receive while in PvP combat. So a single group healer isn't limited to say 3 targets like in Vengeance, but recipient players can't stack say more than say 2 at any one time?

Siege is fine as is, it is already very impactful for how little effort or investment it takes to use.

But yeah, your last part is essentially what most of the community has been begging for going on years now. A limit to same morph heal over time stacks, and a limit to damage shields active at once.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

It's so funny how some people seem to think one person should be able to kill or entirely invalidate the playstyle of 12 other people by being gifted sets or items or skills by the developers with little to 0 actual effort required on their part.
But God forbid 12 people utilise the mechanics already available in the game to coordinate themselves to fight 12v50+ because that shouldn't be allowed because it's ruining the game.

I don't know a single person who thinks they should be able to 1vX a ballgroup, or entirely invalidate their playstyle.

But it seems the majority of the community is in agreement that certain mechanics being used by these groups right now, such as hot stacking/shield stacking/buff sets are generally too strong at the moment. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask that they address the strength of these mechanics rather than trying to bandaid fix them by introducing sets like the one coming in U47, or snake in the stars, or plaguebreak, etc.

Let's not exaggerate either - no ball group is fighting 50+ players at once in 2025. The per-faction player cap is very likely in the 60-70 range now. Realistically at most you're fighting 20-30 often uncoordinated players, with the survivability to tank 50+.

You even just posted yourself that your server doesn't pop lock anymore - so I'm unsure how you'd be fighting 50+ players.

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Wait your cyrodiil is pop locked?

Major_Toughness · July 21

I wish the answer was sets, because that set was Azureblight but then the ballgroup players brigaded the forums to get it nerfed.

Poss · July 22

React wrote: »

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Instead we get Vengeance. A heavily watered down and restricted version of Cyrodiil in an attempt to locate the source for all the lag and latency issues.

We all know the cause of the performance issues. The endless proc sets, vicious deaths, pulls galore and the heal/shield stacking.

Cyrodiil ran so smoothly back in 2015 before the era of proc sets and vigor spams AND we were all on the older gen consoles too

Thumbless_Bot · July 22

Poss wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Instead we get Vengeance. A heavily watered down and restricted version of Cyrodiil in an attempt to locate the source for all the lag and latency issues.

We all know the cause of the performance issues. The endless proc sets, vicious deaths, pulls galore and the heal/shield stacking.

Cyrodiil ran so smoothly back in 2015 before the era of proc sets and vigor spams AND we were all on the older gen consoles too

Aoe pull sets, aoe heals. Rather than remove the problems they're removing the game.... REMOVING...THE...GAME
.. Literally like getting an entirely new car because you refuse to take the spoiler off the one you have. It is mind-boggling.

Major_Toughness · July 23

Poss wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Instead we get Vengeance. A heavily watered down and restricted version of Cyrodiil in an attempt to locate the source for all the lag and latency issues.

We all know the cause of the performance issues. The endless proc sets, vicious deaths, pulls galore and the heal/shield stacking.

Cyrodiil ran so smoothly back in 2015 before the era of proc sets and vigor spams AND we were all on the older gen consoles too

Proc sets make zero difference and that was proven in their first round of tests which then lead to the no-proc campaign in Ravenwatch where performance was almost identical to Gray Host.

It was still no-CP which has a small performance boost.

Thumbless_Bot · July 23

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Instead we get Vengeance. A heavily watered down and restricted version of Cyrodiil in an attempt to locate the source for all the lag and latency issues.

We all know the cause of the performance issues. The endless proc sets, vicious deaths, pulls galore and the heal/shield stacking.

Cyrodiil ran so smoothly back in 2015 before the era of proc sets and vigor spams AND we were all on the older gen consoles too

Proc sets make zero difference and that was proven in their first round of tests which then lead to the no-proc campaign in Ravenwatch where performance was almost identical to Gray Host.

It was still no-CP which has a small performance boost.

Aoe pull sets have an impact on performance.

Aoe heals have an impact on performance.

Not going to get into to a semantic argument about the difference between 'zero' and 'almost identical' except to say they obviously arent the same thing.

Major_Toughness · July 23

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Instead we get Vengeance. A heavily watered down and restricted version of Cyrodiil in an attempt to locate the source for all the lag and latency issues.

We all know the cause of the performance issues. The endless proc sets, vicious deaths, pulls galore and the heal/shield stacking.

Cyrodiil ran so smoothly back in 2015 before the era of proc sets and vigor spams AND we were all on the older gen consoles too

Proc sets make zero difference and that was proven in their first round of tests which then lead to the no-proc campaign in Ravenwatch where performance was almost identical to Gray Host.

It was still no-CP which has a small performance boost.

Aoe pull sets have an impact on performance.

Aoe heals have an impact on performance.

Not going to get into to a semantic argument about the difference between 'zero' and 'almost identical' except to say they obviously arent the same thing.

If you would kindly read the post, the next line explains why Ravenwatch performance was, and still will be, better than Gray Host.

MincMincMinc · July 23

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Instead we get Vengeance. A heavily watered down and restricted version of Cyrodiil in an attempt to locate the source for all the lag and latency issues.

We all know the cause of the performance issues. The endless proc sets, vicious deaths, pulls galore and the heal/shield stacking.

Cyrodiil ran so smoothly back in 2015 before the era of proc sets and vigor spams AND we were all on the older gen consoles too

Proc sets make zero difference and that was proven in their first round of tests which then lead to the no-proc campaign in Ravenwatch where performance was almost identical to Gray Host.

It was still no-CP which has a small performance boost.

Well....no removing procs alone did not have a major effect.

The problem is obviously not a single variable problem. I'm sure they are going to find that it is multi layered. Just think through it, you have Aoe skills that do OTEs that do procs that do effects that do timers that do status effects that do CP that do major effects.......ETC. What you are saying is that well they removed procs and it was mostly fine, so alls good with procs. Well we still had the equation of Aoe skills that do OTEs that do effects that do timers that do status effects that do CP that do major effects.......ETC.

No kidding procs barely made a dent. We have 10 years of live changes driving away from the original code of the game.

Better solutions are to write out every step of the equation we can think of and establish limitations that are performative. The separation of pve and pvp code can only be a good thing in this aspect because rule changes can be baked into freshly coded abilities or gear. For example for the Over time effects layer you can implement no stacking like how the original game had. Aoes are a tough one, because capping something that is supposed to hit an area is counter intuitive.....However realize that there are many "AoE" skills that do not need to be aoe. For instance breath of life heals a target, but in reality it is a hidden massive aoe cone with smart healing.......When it could simply be an aimed single target cutting out 99% of the code. Status effects are another bloated layer, sure its cool that they do like 4 proc effects now but lets be realistic do we need to 4x every calculation and incentivize players building into this way?

Thumbless_Bot · July 23

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yet in all this time, they have not once commented on the concerns of the community regarding how these mechanics function currently.

Instead we get Vengeance. A heavily watered down and restricted version of Cyrodiil in an attempt to locate the source for all the lag and latency issues.

We all know the cause of the performance issues. The endless proc sets, vicious deaths, pulls galore and the heal/shield stacking.

Cyrodiil ran so smoothly back in 2015 before the era of proc sets and vigor spams AND we were all on the older gen consoles too

Proc sets make zero difference and that was proven in their first round of tests which then lead to the no-proc campaign in Ravenwatch where performance was almost identical to Gray Host.

It was still no-CP which has a small performance boost.

Aoe pull sets have an impact on performance.

Aoe heals have an impact on performance.

Not going to get into to a semantic argument about the difference between 'zero' and 'almost identical' except to say they obviously arent the same thing.

If you would kindly read the post, the next line explains why Ravenwatch performance was, and still will be, better than Gray Host.

I read it before I responded.

You went from proc sets have zero impact to proc sets have a non-zero impact.

Just pointing that out.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · July 23

Nothing makes a difference now when 12 players roll up with subclassing and scribing. I've tried everything.

- Extremely high single target damage
- Jerall, Defile, Rend / Thrive in Chaos
- Meatbags, Lancers, Coldfire
- Chain pulls
- Rush of Agony + Negate + Streak
- Borrowed Time

None of it does anything.

MincMincMinc · July 23

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

I'd like to know which devs are playing in ball groups because that's the only explanation for why they continue to allow such ridiculous power scaling.

What's scary is that the pop cap in cyro is so low, all it takes is about 2 or 3 guilds online to occupy the server. EP last night had basically 3 groups on. One being Army of the Pact which I think was running 2 groups. Another being a 12 man ball. The third was about 12 or so players in a mosh pit at the bridge. So like 50 players per faction

Judging by pop statements zos claiming to meet the original pop numbers and 4x of current it sounds like right now the server is capped at about 150 players. Vengeance probably reaches about 600. Granted the charts and data they showed us only looks like 2x the pop so maybe vengeance was only really reaching 300. (unless they didn't use a linear scale for some reason)

Seeing as pugs and new players can't experience cyrodil, all it will take is for these guilds to break apart when they innevitably get bored and cyro will be dead like the other campaigns. I was there for the downfall of u50 and the downfall of nocp. Its an exact copy of what is happening now.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · July 23

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Seeing as pugs and new players can't experience cyrodil, all it will take is for these guilds to break apart when they innevitably get bored and cyro will be dead like the other campaigns.

I had to edit my previous comment because you know they ban for anything on here. But I agree with everything you said.

YandereGirlfriend · July 23

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Nothing makes a difference now when 12 players roll up with subclassing and scribing. I've tried everything.

- Extremely high single target damage
- Jerall, Defile, Rend / Thrive in Chaos
- Meatbags, Lancers, Coldfire
- Chain pulls
- Rush of Agony + Negate + Streak
- Borrowed Time

None of it does anything.

Ask some of the top-tier solo bombers what they do (and then spend the time to actually get good at it) because bombers can and do get ballgroup kills with high frequency since subclassing hit.

MincMincMinc · July 23

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Nothing makes a difference now when 12 players roll up with subclassing and scribing. I've tried everything.

- Extremely high single target damage
- Jerall, Defile, Rend / Thrive in Chaos
- Meatbags, Lancers, Coldfire
- Chain pulls
- Rush of Agony + Negate + Streak
- Borrowed Time

None of it does anything.

Ask some of the top-tier solo bombers what they do (and then spend the time to actually get good at it) because bombers can and do get ballgroup kills with high frequency since subclassing hit.

Its just going to be sad when cyrodil bakes down to bombers and ball groups just standing around an empty campaign though.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · July 23

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Nothing makes a difference now when 12 players roll up with subclassing and scribing. I've tried everything.

- Extremely high single target damage
- Jerall, Defile, Rend / Thrive in Chaos
- Meatbags, Lancers, Coldfire
- Chain pulls
- Rush of Agony + Negate + Streak
- Borrowed Time

None of it does anything.

Ask some of the top-tier solo bombers what they do (and then spend the time to actually get good at it) because bombers can and do get ballgroup kills with high frequency since subclassing hit.

Yeah and 1 Merciless Resolve or any attack for that matter will kill you. There's nothing you can do against detect pots, anti-stealth poisons, etc. It's a terrible way to play the game. Also bombing is harder than ever now. Have you tried it this patch?

YandereGirlfriend · July 23

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Nothing makes a difference now when 12 players roll up with subclassing and scribing. I've tried everything.

- Extremely high single target damage
- Jerall, Defile, Rend / Thrive in Chaos
- Meatbags, Lancers, Coldfire
- Chain pulls
- Rush of Agony + Negate + Streak
- Borrowed Time

None of it does anything.

Ask some of the top-tier solo bombers what they do (and then spend the time to actually get good at it) because bombers can and do get ballgroup kills with high frequency since subclassing hit.

Yeah and 1 Merciless Resolve or any attack for that matter will kill you. There's nothing you can do against detect pots, anti-stealth poisons, etc. It's a terrible way to play the game. Also bombing is harder than ever now. Have you tried it this patch?

Yes, you're fragile, that's the life of a bomber. Always has been. Always will be. Most of the time even a successful bomb is a one-way mission. And there's nothing wrong with that. Bombing a ballgroup or a huge portion of a faction-stack is glorious, though, and it very tangibly helps your side if you can pull it off.

PureEnvelope35 · July 28

Major_Toughness wrote: »

I wish the answer was sets, because that set was Azureblight but then the ballgroup players brigaded the forums to get it nerfed.

Funny Blue Set had some high numbers on paper and thus had to go, naturally, because it caused enough noise here and instead of looking into the usage of it, it got bonked straight down to hell...

Same would likely happen to any new set with similar effectiveness against organised groups, a shame as it was fun to see mates who play in ballgroups adjust setups to counter Azureblight, while using it to fight other ballgroups.

MincMincMinc · August 6

Random thought, one of the biggest issues with ballgroups is that they have guaranteed movement from snow treaders combined with constant casting. A better +1 braincell snowtreaders design would be to only give the immunity while sprinting.

"while wearing snowtreaders, lose all sprint movement speed bonus. While sprinting gain immunity to snares and immobilizes"

This requires the user to actively decide if they should be casting or need the guaranteed movement. Also it will cut into the infinite resource sustain that ballgroups can afford. Too much movement and poor coordination hurts their heals and can lead to poor decisions from individual players. Allowing mistakes to be punished.

YandereGirlfriend · August 6

That would definitely kill the Mythic completely if that is what your intention is.

Game doesn't need any more dead Mythics than it already has.