CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

Here's the thing - adding a HoT stack cap would only barely adjust the ceiling for ball groups. All that would happen is ball groups would now have to diversify their skill lines a bit more and instead of everyone slotting Vigor, one person slots Vigor, one Radiating, one Refreshing Path, one Intensive Mender, one Cauterize, one Green Lotus, etc etc., as well as adding in a couple more group aoe burst heals.

They would still have tons and tons of healing power, and against the average zerg, would still feel unkillable. The difference would be that it'd be a bit harder to theory craft, and thus tone down the ease of reaching nigh immortality.

That's not an argument against adding a HoT stack cap - quite the opposite, I think it should absolutely be added because it makes for more interesting group comps than having 6+ wardens all running Echoing Vigor.

Hot+shield needs balance rather than „interesting“ diversity and I dont think every group having the same morphs once per group makes PvP much more interisting.

Only groups unable to coordinate will have redundancies and loose power. Another indirect buff for ballgroups over more flexible groups.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

I forget how the old rules used to work tbh. I want to say that the stronger tooltip always won, but would be rewritten by the caster.

You can play through different scenarios though and in PvE this causes significant issues obviously. However in PvP the chances become exceedingly less and less. Even so when the chances of overlap do start to happen the group sizes are getting large enough that it becomes a softcap to prevent abuse of a particular meta. Remember the sloads soul meta where you would just be run down by 5 people abusing oblivion damage dots with no limitation?

Should a pug in a 100 man zerg casting into a void be as efficient as a duo coordinating morphs to cover each other? Will that pug even notice that his hot didnt tick for the 5th time on that random 1/99 players infront of them? With how many skills in the game compared to back then, how many people run the same skills?

Back in the day not stacking effects would give reason to run the other morphs like mutagen and rapid regen. Instead of always choosing the 1% more efficient morph. This would have an even more profound effect on dealing with pvp balance issues of subclassing. Suddenly not everyone can slot the BiS subclassing spam without downsides.

Yes players not coordinating morphs should be as effective as players coordinating morphs.


Not only the pug in a 100 man zerg would be unable to coordinate his morphs with 99 others but also the 2 smaller groups/players teaming up to have the same numbers as the large they are fighting.

Placing hots on 100 players already is does not work because even with longer duration of Multitarget morphs of vigor and regeneration the hot would run out on first players before you can cast on the last.

You can cast regen 10 times hitting 30 players before it runs out for the first if you spam it using nothing else.
If you also use echoing vigor or other skills you have less time/casts hitting less players.

Better solution would be to make a cap for total number of hots/shields from all morphs combined.

Only players that regularly play together can effort to coordinate Skills.

Just for reference when the no effect stacking was in place, randoms in zergs uncoordinating all chose different morphs for the exact reason to be more effective. Morphs back then were also much closer in use. Now adays the hurdle is that we have the remnants of the mag/stam copy skills. I am sure they are waiting until after vengeance testing to do a skill overhaul.

Howcan randoms all choose different morphs when they dont know before which morph the other randoms use?

Even when they pick random one there is still chance someone picks the same one.

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

I forget how the old rules used to work tbh. I want to say that the stronger tooltip always won, but would be rewritten by the caster.

You can play through different scenarios though and in PvE this causes significant issues obviously. However in PvP the chances become exceedingly less and less. Even so when the chances of overlap do start to happen the group sizes are getting large enough that it becomes a softcap to prevent abuse of a particular meta. Remember the sloads soul meta where you would just be run down by 5 people abusing oblivion damage dots with no limitation?

Should a pug in a 100 man zerg casting into a void be as efficient as a duo coordinating morphs to cover each other? Will that pug even notice that his hot didnt tick for the 5th time on that random 1/99 players infront of them? With how many skills in the game compared to back then, how many people run the same skills?

Back in the day not stacking effects would give reason to run the other morphs like mutagen and rapid regen. Instead of always choosing the 1% more efficient morph. This would have an even more profound effect on dealing with pvp balance issues of subclassing. Suddenly not everyone can slot the BiS subclassing spam without downsides.

Yes players not coordinating morphs should be as effective as players coordinating morphs.


Not only the pug in a 100 man zerg would be unable to coordinate his morphs with 99 others but also the 2 smaller groups/players teaming up to have the same numbers as the large they are fighting.

Placing hots on 100 players already is does not work because even with longer duration of Multitarget morphs of vigor and regeneration the hot would run out on first players before you can cast on the last.

You can cast regen 10 times hitting 30 players before it runs out for the first if you spam it using nothing else.
If you also use echoing vigor or other skills you have less time/casts hitting less players.

Better solution would be to make a cap for total number of hots/shields from all morphs combined.

Only players that regularly play together can effort to coordinate Skills.

Just for reference when the no effect stacking was in place, randoms in zergs uncoordinating all chose different morphs for the exact reason to be more effective. Morphs back then were also much closer in use. Now adays the hurdle is that we have the remnants of the mag/stam copy skills. I am sure they are waiting until after vengeance testing to do a skill overhaul.

Howcan randoms all choose different morphs when they dont know before which morph the other randoms use?

Even when they pick random one there is still chance someone picks the same one.

They can't thats why pvp back then had everyone using different morphs. Chances are out of a 40 man zerg there was going to be someone with both morphs of mutagen or rapid regen......

You wouldn't rather limit ball groups and force them to have to coordinate to get an edge? Currently they can all solely run 12x of the best possible setups and skip over the vast majority of planning.

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

Here's the thing - adding a HoT stack cap would only barely adjust the ceiling for ball groups. All that would happen is ball groups would now have to diversify their skill lines a bit more and instead of everyone slotting Vigor, one person slots Vigor, one Radiating, one Refreshing Path, one Intensive Mender, one Cauterize, one Green Lotus, etc etc., as well as adding in a couple more group aoe burst heals.

They would still have tons and tons of healing power, and against the average zerg, would still feel unkillable. The difference would be that it'd be a bit harder to theory craft, and thus tone down the ease of reaching nigh immortality.

That's not an argument against adding a HoT stack cap - quite the opposite, I think it should absolutely be added because it makes for more interesting group comps than having 6+ wardens all running Echoing Vigor.

Hot+shield needs balance rather than „interesting“ diversity and I dont think every group having the same morphs once per group makes PvP much more interisting.

Only groups unable to coordinate will have redundancies and loose power. Another indirect buff for ballgroups over more flexible groups.

I can assure you 12x people being perfectly numerically efficient healing wise is far worse than being capped at 2x (2 morphs) of the BiS hots. Its a matter of burst can get through 2x hots but not 12x. Anyone who sits with 12x of the strongest hots can be basically immortal.

Right now there is simply no possible way other than server desync or hiccups for a ballgroup player to die unless they really really mess up or crown fumbles.

12 hots from 12 different morph/skills is still 12 hots(or shields) the burst has to get through

What are all 12 of these aoe hots or wards I dont know about?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

I forget how the old rules used to work tbh. I want to say that the stronger tooltip always won, but would be rewritten by the caster.

You can play through different scenarios though and in PvE this causes significant issues obviously. However in PvP the chances become exceedingly less and less. Even so when the chances of overlap do start to happen the group sizes are getting large enough that it becomes a softcap to prevent abuse of a particular meta. Remember the sloads soul meta where you would just be run down by 5 people abusing oblivion damage dots with no limitation?

Should a pug in a 100 man zerg casting into a void be as efficient as a duo coordinating morphs to cover each other? Will that pug even notice that his hot didnt tick for the 5th time on that random 1/99 players infront of them? With how many skills in the game compared to back then, how many people run the same skills?

Back in the day not stacking effects would give reason to run the other morphs like mutagen and rapid regen. Instead of always choosing the 1% more efficient morph. This would have an even more profound effect on dealing with pvp balance issues of subclassing. Suddenly not everyone can slot the BiS subclassing spam without downsides.

Yes players not coordinating morphs should be as effective as players coordinating morphs.


Not only the pug in a 100 man zerg would be unable to coordinate his morphs with 99 others but also the 2 smaller groups/players teaming up to have the same numbers as the large they are fighting.

Placing hots on 100 players already is does not work because even with longer duration of Multitarget morphs of vigor and regeneration the hot would run out on first players before you can cast on the last.

You can cast regen 10 times hitting 30 players before it runs out for the first if you spam it using nothing else.
If you also use echoing vigor or other skills you have less time/casts hitting less players.

Better solution would be to make a cap for total number of hots/shields from all morphs combined.

Only players that regularly play together can effort to coordinate Skills.

Just for reference when the no effect stacking was in place, randoms in zergs uncoordinating all chose different morphs for the exact reason to be more effective. Morphs back then were also much closer in use. Now adays the hurdle is that we have the remnants of the mag/stam copy skills. I am sure they are waiting until after vengeance testing to do a skill overhaul.

Howcan randoms all choose different morphs when they dont know before which morph the other randoms use?

Even when they pick random one there is still chance someone picks the same one.

They can't thats why pvp back then had everyone using different morphs. Chances are out of a 40 man zerg there was going to be someone with both morphs of mutagen or rapid regen......

You wouldn't rather limit ball groups and force them to have to coordinate to get an edge? Currently they can all solely run 12x of the best possible setups and skip over the vast majority of planning.

Forcing ballgroups to coordinate is not an issue for them as they already coordinate all their builds.
But ballgroups and premades are the only ones who can coordinate that, if you just invite 12 players with group heals many of them will have the same hots and coordinating them will take so long it is not worth it unless you play 20 hours or regularly in this composition.

Iriidius wrote: »

Forcing ballgroups to coordinate is not an issue for them as they already coordinate all their builds.
But ballgroups and premades are the only ones who can coordinate that, if you just invite 12 players with group heals many of them will have the same hots and coordinating them will take so long it is not worth it unless you play 20 hours or regularly in this composition.

If we are expecting the 12 randoms to band together to be equivalent to the perfectly golded out group/trial level gear composition and break through 12x of the BiS hots cast in order every gcd, I think we are getting too far off. Only chance we are getting the scenario where that can happen is maybe vengeance. Building and planning has to be a core function, and allowing limitless group stacking is just a can of worms waiting for abusive skills or sets. The limitation combined with skills available only lets them stretch so far.

Iriidius wrote: »

Planning group composition is what premades/ballgroups who are main users of multitarget hots and shields already do and get most of their strength from so how is rewarding it more bad for ballgroups and shield/ heal stacker?

One hot with 10k weapon dmg is still less than multiple stacked hots.

How is allowing it to infinitely stack better? Why is allowing them to be at peak performance with minimal thought better? I would rather have a limited system where we know 12x hots can stack up to X heals a sec while we know any Y number of burst skills can go through it.

To get to the bottom of things we would have to write out two 12x builds in a ball group under the different conditions and compare outputs. These outputs for hots/shields are then compared for burst survivability in a given instance. Lives stacking builds would be fairly easy, but the nonstacking would be weeks of theory crafting and tuning individual builds to maybe get a couple more hots compared to the nonchalant zerg players that probably already on live dont have hots regardless in either scenario.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You forgot to say the answer is always sets.......that the ballgroups end up running

Tbf this set doesn't do much to wreck zergs. Ballgroups will definitely still run it, but only because it'll be amazing for fighting other Ballgroups.

This is like the one set they've introduced that basically can't be used against zergs more effectively.

Came here to say this.

Right I meant more in general the previous history of how things have gone. I can still see it being fine on zergs since it is a density thing. If the players are 1/2 as good, but there are 2x as many chances are they will still have just as many hots or maybe more on the targets receiving smart heals.

---

We all know the real counter and solution to the problem of hot stacking would be to revert back to no over time effect stacking.

How would you actually do that, though?

Do more recent copies of an effect overwrite existing effects because their remaining duration is longer? Does the stronger copy win? Can your own copy of an effect be overwritten by a random or does the caster always have priority on themselves?

These are necessary problems to answer and implement and someone will be rightfully angry no matter what choices are made.

It sounds simple as a slogan but it touches much more gameplay than simply ballgrouping.

Ideally it would work by snapshotting the highest heal and just refreshing the duration.

So lets say a healer hits you with vigor, you can extend that vigor buff on yourself/your group members (at the healers higher healing value) by refreshing it with your own vigor cast.

The problem with that now is layering in proc set casts. Oh vigor was cast on your group during an acuity proc. Ok well it permanently has 100% crit so long as it gets recast.

There will be inevitable loss, but the question is does it really matter? At the same time its a reduction in power creep for everyone. Its not like one zerg will fundamentally be at an advantage. Solo and small man groups will be the same, its just that abusive group play would be limited. Getting more players soloing and small man grouping to spread out the playerbase can only help reduce combat hotspots or singularity points as well. Just look how laggy the malacath hammer can make the server when all three factions are in one centralized location.

Here's the thing - adding a HoT stack cap would only barely adjust the ceiling for ball groups. All that would happen is ball groups would now have to diversify their skill lines a bit more and instead of everyone slotting Vigor, one person slots Vigor, one Radiating, one Refreshing Path, one Intensive Mender, one Cauterize, one Green Lotus, etc etc., as well as adding in a couple more group aoe burst heals.

They would still have tons and tons of healing power, and against the average zerg, would still feel unkillable. The difference would be that it'd be a bit harder to theory craft, and thus tone down the ease of reaching nigh immortality.

That's not an argument against adding a HoT stack cap - quite the opposite, I think it should absolutely be added because it makes for more interesting group comps than having 6+ wardens all running Echoing Vigor.

Hot+shield needs balance rather than „interesting“ diversity and I dont think every group having the same morphs once per group makes PvP much more interisting.

Only groups unable to coordinate will have redundancies and loose power. Another indirect buff for ballgroups over more flexible groups.

I can assure you 12x people being perfectly numerically efficient healing wise is far worse than being capped at 2x (2 morphs) of the BiS hots. Its a matter of burst can get through 2x hots but not 12x. Anyone who sits with 12x of the strongest hots can be basically immortal.

Right now there is simply no possible way other than server desync or hiccups for a ballgroup player to die unless they really really mess up or crown fumbles.

12 hots from 12 different morph/skills is still 12 hots(or shields) the burst has to get through

What are all 12 of these aoe hots or wards I dont know about?

echoing vigor,
vigor(unmorphed),
radiating regen,
cauterize,
Ash cloud and Cinder Storm morph,
Intensive mender,
restoring theter and 2 morphs,
Life amid death and morphs,
Gibbering Shield,
Chakram shields and 2 morphs,
Healing Thicket(green balance ultimorph),
Healing Seed synergy&morphs,
Green Lotus,
Puryfying light,
Cleansing Ritual and morphs,
Refreshing path,
Healing Seeds with morphs and synergy
Energy orb,
Bloodaltar and BoneShield and morphs synergies,
Grand healing and both morph,
Damage shield and Sage remedy(HOT) for multiple scribing skills,


Some are not counted as hots but direct damage or are ground hots but but can be used like ones and ballgroups should still find 12 usable ones.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Forcing ballgroups to coordinate is not an issue for them as they already coordinate all their builds.
But ballgroups and premades are the only ones who can coordinate that, if you just invite 12 players with group heals many of them will have the same hots and coordinating them will take so long it is not worth it unless you play 20 hours or regularly in this composition.

If we are expecting the 12 randoms to band together to be equivalent to the perfectly golded out group/trial level gear composition and break through 12x of the BiS hots cast in order every gcd, I think we are getting too far off. Only chance we are getting the scenario where that can happen is maybe vengeance. Building and planning has to be a core function, and allowing limitless group stacking is just a can of worms waiting for abusive skills or sets. The limitation combined with skills available only lets them stretch so far.

Currently 12 randoms can stack the same hot skill and morph multiple time unlike with sets and buffs so how is keeping it that way going to far?
Wasnt the goal of these suggestions to limit heal stacking mainly of ballgroups so how enforcing coordinating which is easy for ballgroups but impossible for randoms gatekeeping them from healstacking contributes to that goal?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Planning group composition is what premades/ballgroups who are main users of multitarget hots and shields already do and get most of their strength from so how is rewarding it more bad for ballgroups and shield/ heal stacker?

One hot with 10k weapon dmg is still less than multiple stacked hots.

How is allowing it to infinitely stack better? Why is allowing them to be at peak performance with minimal thought better? I would rather have a limited system where we know 12x hots can stack up to X heals a sec while we know any Y number of burst skills can go through it.

To get to the bottom of things we would have to write out two 12x builds in a ball group under the different conditions and compare outputs. These outputs for hots/shields are then compared for burst survivability in a given instance. Lives stacking builds would be fairly easy, but the nonstacking would be weeks of theory crafting and tuning individual builds to maybe get a couple more hots compared to the nonchalant zerg players that probably already on live dont have hots regardless in either scenario.

My suggestion was not to keep hots/shield stacking infinitely but to create a shared cap for multiple or all hots and shields.
I prefer both fighting and making build for ballgroup with 4 times the same hot over fighting a ballgroup with 10 different hots or shields.

Once a group composition with different hots got theorycrafted other ballgroup will copy it and it will not stop current ballgroups who are willing to spend much time minmaxing but gatekeeping any groups with changing members and less time.

Capping effects like Sloads is interesting to consider on offense as well.

Like I vividly recall getting DOT'd up by like 20 stacks of Soul-Splitting Trap during the height of the Azureblight faction-stack meta. As soon as you came within 35 meters of the zerg it was just infinite copies of every sticky DOT in the game, newly buffed for crazy durations of 20 seconds or longer.

That definitely scales directly with zerg size in a way that is undesirable, IMO.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Capping effects like Sloads is interesting to consider on offense as well.

Like I vividly recall getting DOT'd up by like 20 stacks of Soul-Splitting Trap during the height of the Azureblight faction-stack meta. As soon as you came within 35 meters of the zerg it was just infinite copies of every sticky DOT in the game, newly buffed for crazy durations of 20 seconds or longer.

That definitely scales directly with zerg size in a way that is undesirable, IMO.

Well ideally sloads should have been designed well from the start to never stack. Someone didnt think through that the proc should have a cooldown on both the caster and the receiver.

Without the no stacking effect how do you dis-incentivize abusing a meta/broken/poorly designed mechanic.

---

Lets say we do the Iridius heal cap concept to prevent hot stacking? Ok now:
How would a dot stack cap work?
How would a proc effect cap work?

Should these be left up to the individual set design that a co-op at zos makes up and throws out to the wind, or can we think of a system level rule to prevent abuse?

That's what I mean: in that world where we're eliminating HOT/buff stacking we would need to do that for negative effects as well.

Which gets down into grimy implementation details that will antagonize all sorts of folk with vested interests.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Capping effects like Sloads is interesting to consider on offense as well.

Like I vividly recall getting DOT'd up by like 20 stacks of Soul-Splitting Trap during the height of the Azureblight faction-stack meta. As soon as you came within 35 meters of the zerg it was just infinite copies of every sticky DOT in the game, newly buffed for crazy durations of 20 seconds or longer.

That definitely scales directly with zerg size in a way that is undesirable, IMO.

Well ideally sloads should have been designed well from the start to never stack. Someone didnt think through that the proc should have a cooldown on both the caster and the receiver.

Without the no stacking effect how do you dis-incentivize abusing a meta/broken/poorly designed mechanic.

---

Lets say we do the Iridius heal cap concept to prevent hot stacking? Ok now:
How would a dot stack cap work?
How would a proc effect cap work?

Should these be left up to the individual set design that a co-op at zos makes up and throws out to the wind, or can we think of a system level rule to prevent abuse?

That's what I mean: in that world where we're eliminating HOT/buff stacking we would need to do that for negative effects as well.

Which gets down into grimy implementation details that will antagonize all sorts of folk with vested interests.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. If this were true, HoT stacking would be countered by DoT stacking already, but it's not. You don't see people cratering ball groups by stacking tons of DoTs.

Healing vastly outpaces damage in this game. There are many ways to increase incoming healing and reduce incoming damage, but only a couple ways to reduce a target's healing.

For damage resistance, you have Armor, multiple types of % mitigation, Crit Resist, Cowardice, and Maim (as well as underused debuffs like Enervation). Additionally, DoTs and negative effects can be purged.

HoTs can also be boosted by offensive stats, Mending, and Vitality. Damage Shields also mitigate DoTs and greatly increase the effectiveness of HoTs by applying a buffer for the HoTs to put in work.

Meanwhile, there's really only two things you can do to limit the effectiveness of a target's HoTs: Cowardice and Defile, both of which can be purged or offset by Courage and the aforementioned healing buffs.

There is no way to remove a target's HoTs; you can't purge off a target's healing over time. The only two "anti-healing" sources in the game (SITS and Healing Absorption) are either extremely underpowered or useless when fighting more than one enemy.

Even if HoTs were limited from stacking, they'd likely still outpace DoTs as people would just lean more heavily into purging.

There is also the philosophical/gameplay and performance perspectives to consider.

Lots of folk here like to clown "Vigor bots" as a caricature of ballgrouping, etc. But nobody similarly blasts low-effort ranged sticky DOT spam from keep walls and faction-stacking as similarly degenerate gameplay styles or even pauses to consider the huge server performance toll that it undoubtedly incurs. Those sticky DOTs and their negative effect timer spam are certainly not computationally free. Indeed, every tick of a weak DOT invites additional checks against mitigation sources, Crit Chance, status effect chance, etc. And for what?

Pre-Scribing, we lived in an era where it was rare to have like 10+ negative effects on you. But now that is pretty much the normal state of simply existing on any reasonably tanky build in open-world play. Since Scribing, we have a proliferation of weak, long-duration, stackable DOTs and their negative effects. Entire guilds do nothing but siege and cast sticky DOTs from walls rather than get into the field and fight. Amazing gameplay!

If the performance gains from limiting HOT stacking are as large as is often claimed/hypothesized then surely limiting low-impact negative effect spam would further juice those gains. As well as have the additional benefit of incentivizing players to actually PvP rather than low-effort pew-pew'ing from walls or with 60 of their friends.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

My suggestion was not to keep hots/shield stacking infinitely but to create a shared cap for multiple or all hots and shields.
I prefer both fighting and making build for ballgroup with 4 times the same hot over fighting a ballgroup with 10 different hots or shields.

Once a group composition with different hots got theorycrafted other ballgroup will copy it and it will not stop current ballgroups who are willing to spend much time minmaxing but gatekeeping any groups with changing members and less time.

A cap like this could function similar. My main drive for the no effect stacking is for the performance aspect and anti meta aspect. For instance being run down by 5 people with sloads soul meta. The no stacking has a drastic change on solo gameplay which hardly exists for low and mid tier players.

You do have a point where the zerg vs ballgroup scenario can suffer, but math wise there can be alot of playroom depending on the scale of skills, scenarios, etc. Which I dont think we can get through the numbers on the forums for either of us to change minds on that. Power creep and additions to the game do help your case more and more with hot sets being added and new skill lines etc.

Any proposed cap concepts? only 10 and the last one drops off? Maybe hots get pooled and capped at XX%hp/s?

Cap should be lower than 10 which is still a lot and probably what smalleror negligent ballgroups reach while still farming everyone so more like 5.
They could drop the oldest or just not apply new hots, both would be better than now, even when they always drop weakest one keeping the stronger ones it would be much better than now.

Capping the total healing rather than the number of hots would be good solution too but should be an absolute value rather than relative/percentage of hp as otherwise 50k hp gets even more attractive.

Proposing it for the 100th time...buff Inevitable Detonation damage by 100%...problem solved

My guess is the code of the basic game is like a trash mountain. Nobody can change the basic game code without create hundreds of bugs.

Otherwise, zos could have add a simple rule in pvp area that every HOT/shield reduce other HOT/shield by 20% or sth. There are thousands of easy ways to deal with the ball group thing compared to a Vengeance.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

My suggestion was not to keep hots/shield stacking infinitely but to create a shared cap for multiple or all hots and shields.
I prefer both fighting and making build for ballgroup with 4 times the same hot over fighting a ballgroup with 10 different hots or shields.

Once a group composition with different hots got theorycrafted other ballgroup will copy it and it will not stop current ballgroups who are willing to spend much time minmaxing but gatekeeping any groups with changing members and less time.

A cap like this could function similar. My main drive for the no effect stacking is for the performance aspect and anti meta aspect. For instance being run down by 5 people with sloads soul meta. The no stacking has a drastic change on solo gameplay which hardly exists for low and mid tier players.

You do have a point where the zerg vs ballgroup scenario can suffer, but math wise there can be alot of playroom depending on the scale of skills, scenarios, etc. Which I dont think we can get through the numbers on the forums for either of us to change minds on that. Power creep and additions to the game do help your case more and more with hot sets being added and new skill lines etc.

Any proposed cap concepts? only 10 and the last one drops off? Maybe hots get pooled and capped at XX%hp/s?

Cap should be lower than 10 which is still a lot and probably what smalleror negligent ballgroups reach while still farming everyone so more like 5.
They could drop the oldest or just not apply new hots, both would be better than now, even when they always drop weakest one keeping the stronger ones it would be much better than now.

Capping the total healing rather than the number of hots would be good solution too but should be an absolute value rather than relative/percentage of hp as otherwise 50k hp gets even more attractive.

Itd have to be based on %hp. To account for power creep. Although zos has done a decent job at not adding too much health to the game. Most pvp builds have been around 30k for about 6-7 years I think.

IMO tristat armor glyphs should be balanced out by now. Food/drink should be reworked aswell

How does %hp account for power creep other than increasing it when a 60k hp player could get twice as much healing+shielding (by allies) as a 30k hp player?
A ballgroup with higher health would not just be harder to burst but also better outheal sustained dmg.
Stacking hp should mainly increase hp pool protecting against burst and not make more things scale with it than already do.
60k hp players are already hard enaugh to kill.