I'm not sure where this talk of "forced stalemates" really comes from. A good player with a well-rounded build has always been able to 'force stalemates' since 2014 pvp era. No meta shift has ever prevented this. The only reason people are experiencing this 'shift' is because everyone is stacking 3 offensive lines and trying to kill each other. Once this initial excitement wears off, the meta is going to shift back into more well-rounded builds to counter once again, the ridiculous bursts... which is exactly how the 'tank meta' of the last two years was created... to counter bursts and being VD bait.

Weesacs wrote: »

I personally feel the damage within the animal companion line is OK - its the sustain that needs to be looked at, and this is coming from someone who uses the skill line.

For example, having the following:

• Passive regen from Betty Netch
• 20% sustain from Flourish
• Shalks being able to trigger both buffs of Wretched Vitality from one skill

is way overloaded from a sustain perspective.

There's a reason why most of PvP players run the skill line ... and its mostly for the regen.

I've taken quite a few screenshots playing BGs with the majority of players having Netch tentacles attached to them; its quite amusing but on the other hand, kind of highlights the importance of the skill line within PvP and the overuse of it.

Essentially, I think the sustainability part of the skill line needs to be toned down, the rest of the skill line is fine, but this is just my opinion.

I don't think it needs to be toned down - I think underutilized damage lines should be brought up. Animal companions is strong for sure, but outside of the netch having no cost I don't think it actually needs to be nerfed. I think it represents a strong, well balanced damage line that could be used as a benchmark for what other damage lines should look like.

React wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I'm not sure where this talk of "forced stalemates" really comes from. A good player with a well-rounded build has always been able to 'force stalemates' since 2014 pvp era. No meta shift has ever prevented this. The only reason people are experiencing this 'shift' is because everyone is stacking 3 offensive lines and trying to kill each other. Once this initial excitement wears off, the meta is going to shift back into more well-rounded builds to counter once again, the ridiculous bursts... which is exactly how the 'tank meta' of the last two years was created... to counter bursts and being VD bait.

I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make here? The damage is higher in subclassing because most of the damage options are stronger than the defensive ones. It's just like in blackwood where the damage was higher than the defense because of master at arms being added before ironclad. Sure, someone can still force a stalemate if they're building tanky and using the tankier options for skill lines, but in general the vast majority of players can be killed in ways they haven't been able to in years.

You can be as pessimistic as you'd like to be about where things will go, but subclassing is obviously not going anywhere. Better to offer input on how zenimax can make changes to better maintain an enjoyable "damage focused meta" than lament over the loss of the previous no-damage watered down post-hybridization pre-subclassing environment we had before.

Was just commenting on all the posts I've seen talking about stalemates no longer occurring. It's still do-ble if the player isn't doing a 3 offensive skill-line and focuses on playing defensively. My point is that the meta -will- 'even out' as players who keep getting bursted get tired of trying to burst others and revert back to being 'tanky'. This is basic human behavior that has been demonstrated through eso pvp environment for years. The 'no-damage watered down environment' occurred primarily because of very high bursts from proc sets, for example when tarnished nightmare was being run by almost -everyone-. And the elephant in the room: bomb meta still going very strong. Maybe the rush of agony 'change' might alleviate some of it, but that remains to be seen imo. Dark convergence always had visible counterplay, but people still complained to no end about it until it got nerfed. And people still very regularly get bombed by it.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

React wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I'm not sure where this talk of "forced stalemates" really comes from. A good player with a well-rounded build has always been able to 'force stalemates' since 2014 pvp era. No meta shift has ever prevented this. The only reason people are experiencing this 'shift' is because everyone is stacking 3 offensive lines and trying to kill each other. Once this initial excitement wears off, the meta is going to shift back into more well-rounded builds to counter once again, the ridiculous bursts... which is exactly how the 'tank meta' of the last two years was created... to counter bursts and being VD bait.

I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make here? The damage is higher in subclassing because most of the damage options are stronger than the defensive ones. It's just like in blackwood where the damage was higher than the defense because of master at arms being added before ironclad. Sure, someone can still force a stalemate if they're building tanky and using the tankier options for skill lines, but in general the vast majority of players can be killed in ways they haven't been able to in years.

You can be as pessimistic as you'd like to be about where things will go, but subclassing is obviously not going anywhere. Better to offer input on how zenimax can make changes to better maintain an enjoyable "damage focused meta" than lament over the loss of the previous no-damage watered down post-hybridization pre-subclassing environment we had before.

Was just commenting on all the posts I've seen talking about stalemates no longer occurring. It's still do-ble if the player isn't doing a 3 offensive skill-line and focuses on playing defensively. My point is that the meta -will- 'even out' as players who keep getting bursted get tired of trying to burst others and revert back to being 'tanky'. This is basic human behavior that has been demonstrated through eso pvp environment for years. The 'no-damage watered down environment' occurred primarily because of very high bursts from proc sets, for example when tarnished nightmare was being run by almost -everyone-. And the elephant in the room: bomb meta still going very strong. Maybe the rush of agony 'change' might alleviate some of it, but that remains to be seen imo. Dark convergence always had visible counterplay, but people still complained to no end about it until it got nerfed. And people still very regularly get bombed by it.

Before Subclassing, you could run tanky and throw on a DoT build and still find results. Now you can’t build tanky enough to survive the burst while still having enough damage to eventually kill anyone, and on top of that… everyone has Extended Ritual and/or Netch.

You have two choices, easily obtained burst or Jeralls/Relequen to kill people with a DoT build now as they both count as a flood of negative effects, a problem in it’s own right, but those are your choices.

They are both “single target” so you’re not doing anything but duel on a build using those sets, or you’re stuck playing a Ranged build. Not exactly a healthy state of play.

And that in my opinion, is a balance issue. If you have to build that level of tanky to survive burst... and can't kill someone running 3 offensive lines. I find that to be imbalanced. This is indicative of my previous point. People were stacking proc sets and that eventually pushed that polarizing meta we've had. You either built for all proc set stacking, or built to survive all the proc damage. But now people can run 3 offensive lines and stack a proc set or two and still be just 'survivable enough'. That to me is a serious concern. Sure, one can argue I'm stuck in the past. But I see it as just more regurgitation of all the pain-points that have -pushed away- people from the pvp scene in the first place. An all-out burst meta is just as unhealthy as a full-on tank meta. Both are symptoms of underlining issues that are not being addressed. And the symptoms are now spaghettified.