Fix fake healers and tanks in dungeons

nb_rich · July 17

This is frustrating cause the people that que up as healer and tanks are always so trash. Just got kicked out a group cause I told a fake healers and tank that they do no dps but is cp2000 dying all the time expecting a carry. Why do the people that Que up properly have to suffer?

Orbital78 · July 17

nb_rich wrote: »

Why do the people that Que up properly have to suffer?

Because you didn't pre-form. Been there, done that, it is just as frustrating getting "pvp builds/players" in vet dlc content that are using a sword and shield. I had to carry one through vet Oathsworn pit the other night. Luckily the tank and healer were decent and I was on my best dps.

ToddIngram · July 17

If you're talking about a normal level dungeon, better to have all dps and just burn through the dungeon.

tmbrinks · July 17

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

Most players in the queue are just simply not prepared for veteran content, whether they be tanks, DDs, or healers. It's not a "fake tank" or "fake healer" issue... it's that the game does not adequately prepare players to play veteran content, especially DLC vet content.

Orbital78 · July 17

ToddIngram wrote: »

If you're talking about a normal level dungeon, better to have all dps and just burn through the dungeon.

If everyone is experienced, yes. Many people in normals are in there because they aren't ready or had bad experiences in vet. It really depends on the group makeup, but many people can solo most normals that don't have blockades.

Liukke · July 17

I get the feeling...I'm always queueing as tank on 3 characters. Two can taunt and "hold" while doing dps, more often than not I'm on the 40-50% of dps done, despite being the "tank".
The third character is a full solo dps build but I have an armory assistant that can swap it into a trial tank. Dungeons like scrivener's hall or similar are always better in pugs with some extra protection, but in general if I see that the party is more than good I'll stick to dps.

Bottom line is, "fake" tanking/healing is ok, as long as you can back up the party if needed...if you just suck at it just do something else in your life :'D I feel your pain

Rungar · July 17

fix the dungeons imo. Thats just a symptom, not a root cause.

twisttop138 · July 17

As a tank, I don't mind people doing it who can taunt and hold a boss or do what's needed. In normal. I do it too. I'll pop a taunt on my bar, especially leveling skill lines since 46. I level all skill lines on my dps. If you wanna skip the line, throw a taunt or a heal if it's needed. In normal. Or base game vet. My opinion, though I know not everyone shares it, is that if you're doing dlc vet dungeon content or harder make the group yourself. Using the random dungeon finder, you're gonna get what you get. It's hard to complain when you signed up to get a mystery bag. I very much think people should not be queing up for dlc vet as a fake role for random tho. My advice to anyone is always to find a guild. Find one that has dungeon trainers or daily rostered vet pledge groups or something. The players are there. Waiting. Also, maybe just maybe if you want to ensure you get a real tank or healer then become a tank or healer. We need more.

Cooperharley · July 17

It’s crazy how many of these threads pop up weekly and they have for a decade now, yet nothing has been implemented to help lol.

Orbital78 · July 17

Cooperharley wrote: »

It’s crazy how many of these threads pop up weekly and they have for a decade now, yet nothing has been implemented to help lol.

How do they make bad players good? How do they make people play something they do not enjoy? The support shortage is a symptom of the lack of fun.

Cooperharley · July 17

Orbital78 wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It’s crazy how many of these threads pop up weekly and they have for a decade now, yet nothing has been implemented to help lol.

How do they make bad players good? How do they make people play something they do not enjoy? The support shortage is a symptom of the lack of fun.

I think on AVERAGE the “bad” player skill issue is largely a result of not needing to improve whatsoever in any content up until you hit vet dungeons. Overland is so brain dead easy that you can play naked and light attack with a bow and get everything done. It’s one of the reasons I’m most excited for the optional increase in overland difficulty that ZOS is working on - could be copium, sure, but I hope it helps more people learn the game properly at their own pace and without relying on other people to carry them through content.

Most other games give special incentives in the queue for support players like more xp and gold or transmutes in our case to incentivize those players to queue up more often and PUG. It’s a difficult spot though because there’s no hard build or gear checks to ensure you’re actually a tank or healer, so this wouldn’t realistically work. The only viable way to do this in the current system is to make those playstyles more fun. If you go play wow for instance, playing as a healer or a tank can be done in all content and you can seriously enjoy playing the game solo in those roles where in eso they deal so so so little damage that you essentially need to switch to a dps build to accomplish anything. Literally allowing healers and tanks to actually deal a decent bit of damage would help and make them feel more fun and able to have a well rounded ESO experience IMO. I know some people will disagree with that, but that’s the only solution I see for the average player

FullMax · July 17

The problem can be solved this way: the player will not be able to enter the veteran dungeon until he gets a pass. To do this, he needs to show his damage at a special testing ground. If there is no damage, the player does not get a pass.
The same goes for healers and tanks: they will have to show their healing, defense, pulling mobs into a stack, and so on.
It is possible to make it so that the pass is valid for 3 days and it has to be obtained again.

It's like in sports competitions: if you are a sports category or a candidate for master of sports, these titles must be confirmed periodically)

nb_rich · July 17

The only thing I can think of is that no one should be allowed to que up as a tank unless you have a sword and shield or ice staff equipped, also no one should be allowed to que up as a healer without a resto staff equipped. Once locked in and qued up you shouldn’t be allowed to change your weapon so people don't que up go in and change their weapon.

nb_rich · July 17

Cooperharley wrote: »

It’s crazy how many of these threads pop up weekly and they have for a decade now, yet nothing has been implemented to help lol.

Lol i feel like I said this a few times if not on here on X but today it just pissed me off cause the healer and tank were cp 2000+, and horrible at the game. I left them to attack the boss and they were doing like 1k dps never seen anything so bad from experienced players in my life.

Desiato · July 17

There's no way to enforce this that wouldn't result in a solution worse than the problem.

There is a wide variety of opinions about what constitutes a fake tank or healer.

There was a post recently by a player who complained actual healers were fake because they couldn't do a vet dlc hm, for example.

I've been in a lot of vet dlc dungeon groups with popular tank sets that are frequented by new tanks who were so inexperienced they couldn't do the non-hm final bosses in dungeons like earthen root enclave and shipwright's regret without a long, painful prog. Some would call them fake, even though they were not.

Many experienced players will argue a healer isn't required for vet dlc dungeons and 3 DPS -- with some utilizing support sets -- is actually optimal outside of a handful of HMs. When I tank a dungeon, I LIKE it when there isn't a dedicated healer because survival is so easy now I don't think a healer is necessary.

This has always been pug life in an MMO. PUG stands for pick up group. It is inherently random. You will be matched with players from a wide range of backgrounds, aptitude, build quality, play styles and countless other factors. They might not speak the same language and have a completely different cultural background with different values. Pug at your own risk.

The good news is that this is a social game. There are other options available. This is why people join guilds and make acquaintances. These days, joining guild is optional because there are many discord communities that exist for facilitating dungeon and trial groups.

I play a parse tank in normal randoms and usually do 25-70% of the damage despite wearing support sets that buff the group, holding agro, positioning/debuffing the boss and keeping myself alive. There are DDs who get angry about this because they see with addons their % of their dmg is lower than they would prefer. Some players get mad because I kill things too quickly. You can't please everyone. It is literally impossible.

The true problem here is the expectation that a player can push a button and get a group that is ideal for them. If you choose to do it, take what you get and make the best of it. Or if it's intolerable to you, opt out. When I dd a normal dungeon and get a fake tank, I slot a taunt and get on with it. A decent player can tank normal dlc dungeons with a inner fire and a glass cannon dd. What's intolerable to me are players who bee-line to bosses and keep the group stuck in combat the entire time. When I get a group like that, I just opt-out. Problem solved. I don't get mad about the waste of time because *that's what I signed up for by choosing to pug*. I have to respect that others are free to play how they want.

Renato90085 · July 17

best way is use group finder or guild chat looking for member

Dagoth_Rac · July 17

Roles are very fluid and free-form in ESO. Any class can perform any role or a mix of roles and you can switch roles in seconds. So it would be hard to block people from joining the queue as any role because of how easy it is to become a "real" performer of that role after queue pops and before dungeon starts.

While every dungeon is technically CP160, difficulty obviously varies significantly from one dungeon to another. And player experience and ability varies greatly. I think it would be hard for an algorithm to consistently and accurately decide when a player is not doing their role to the satisfaction of other members of group. I would not want an algorithm to auto-kick a "fake" role. Maybe they were not great but OK enough and I would rather have them than not have them. And the line of what is considered acceptable versus unacceptable probably varies from player to player and group to group.

So I think any attempts at the game policing tank/heal/DPS is likely to be less nuanced and less effective as letting the players police tank/heal/DPS.

Sarannah · July 17

ToddIngram wrote: »

If you're talking about a normal level dungeon, better to have all dps and just burn through the dungeon.

On some level this is true, but those who fake role are often also TERRIBLE dps(despite these players thinking otherwise). Also, this does not work on many DLC dungeons, causing these players to leave and victimize THREE other players with a second queue.

For now, I have a new rule for myself: If someone does not perform their assigned tank/heal role or likes to aggro the entire dungeon, I will sheath my weapons and not do anything anymore. This massively slows down the dungeons.

Players should perform their role, and ZOS should enforce this.

PS: 99/100 who fake role are also terrible dps, in all my years of playing ESO I have only seen a handful of players who were actually worthy fake role players.
PPS: Fake role players often make a dungeon take longer to complete!

sarahthes · July 17

The problem with this is that if you exclude fake tanks the queue goes from 15-20 minutes to over an hour.

The solution is worse than the problem.

preevious · July 17

Sarannah wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

If you're talking about a normal level dungeon, better to have all dps and just burn through the dungeon.

On some level this is true, but those who fake role are often also TERRIBLE dps(despite these players thinking otherwise). Also, this does not work on many DLC dungeons, causing these players to leave and victimize THREE other players with a second queue.

For now, I have a new rule for myself: If someone does not perform their assigned tank/heal role or likes to aggro the entire dungeon, I will sheath my weapons and not do anything anymore. This massively slows down the dungeons.

Players should perform their role, and ZOS should enforce this.

PS: 99/100 who fake role are also terrible dps, in all my years of playing ESO I have only seen a handful of players who were actually worthy fake role players.
PPS: Fake role players often make a dungeon take longer to complete!

I could not agree more with you.

That's the icing of the cake. Fake roles are not only terrible peoples, but they are also incompetent players.
Then, they'll spin a tale about "fake dps" (that do better than them, anyway) and proceed to explain that when they actually play tank (it never really happens) , they do 112% of the team dps while only bashing (s'true, s'true).

I suppose that they spin those lies to justify themselves, because deep down, they know they are bad people and are mostly unwelcome. Since they can't live with that, they say outlandish things to convince themselves, not others.

#fakeRolingIsCheating #reportAndBanCheaters.

Desiato · July 17

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: 99/100 who fake role are also terrible dps, in all my years of playing ESO I have only seen a handful of players who were actually worthy fake role players.
PPS: Fake role players often make a dungeon take longer to complete!

The reason for this is they are just inconsiderate players who have alts they grinded to 50 in an hour or two in places like skyreach and nbrp. Then of course they are left with a nearly useless level 50 character they are completely unmotivated to develop further because getting to level 50 is actually he easy part of developing characters. They are often still in their lowbie training gear.

They can't slot a taunt because they don't have any skill lines levelled or enough skill points.

IMO, they are inherently selfish and completely shameless. They only care about themselves and their goal -- getting transmutes via randoms. They literally expect a carry. Complaining is pointless. Like I said, they are _shameless_.

Unfortunately, this life. I regularly encounter people like this everywhere I go in life, both online and offline. The best thing to is either make the best of it by solving the problem oneself or opting out.

sarahthes · July 17

The only role I queue on for random normals is as a DPS with inner rage slotted (I.e..fake tank). I also know the like 2-3 bosses in the game where I might struggle and I warn the group ahead of time. Nobody's ever had a problem with it.

For the curious, the only rough bosses are the skeleton+ghost in fang lair (Idk why but I always mistime the dodge), and archdruid deyvric (breath attack). I think I might also have had an issue in one spot of Bal sunnar but I've only tanked it once so I might be misremembering.

Desiato · July 17

sarahthes wrote: »

For the curious, the only rough bosses are the skeleton+ghost in fang lair (Idk why but I always mistime the dodge), and archdruid deyvric (breath attack). I think I might also have had an issue in one spot of Bal sunnar but I've only tanked it once so I might be misremembering.

A combination of part-time blocking, potion timing and a scribed damage shield gets me through this, even without an ice staff.

L_Nici · July 17

An

Orbital78 wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

Why do the people that Que up properly have to suffer?

Because you didn't pre-form. Been there, done that, it is just as frustrating getting "pvp builds/players" in vet dlc content that are using a sword and shield. I had to carry one through vet Oathsworn pit the other night. Luckily the tank and healer were decent and I was on my best dps.

As if any actual PvPler would queue with PvP Gear. Most their builds are able to clear most dungeons solo, as they can do the healing and tanking themselves, while doing damage. Sure it takes longer, yet they are totally able.

Ardriel · July 17

Cooperharley wrote: »

It’s crazy how many of these threads pop up weekly and they have for a decade now, yet nothing has been implemented to help lol.

I think the same thing every time I read threads like this one. Why is this problem stubbornly ignored by ZOS?

Orbital78 · July 17

L_Nici wrote: »

An

Orbital78 wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

Why do the people that Que up properly have to suffer?

Because you didn't pre-form. Been there, done that, it is just as frustrating getting "pvp builds/players" in vet dlc content that are using a sword and shield. I had to carry one through vet Oathsworn pit the other night. Luckily the tank and healer were decent and I was on my best dps.

As if any actual PvPler would queue with PvP Gear. Most their builds are able to clear most dungeons solo, as they can do the healing and tanking themselves, while doing damage. Sure it takes longer, yet they are totally able.

I as doing 70-80% of the group dps, and I did mention Veteran Oathsworn Pit I'm sure there are a few apex players that can solo that on vet or even hardmode maybe, but it is not the norm. The player was wearing a sword and shield as mentioned, and they said they were in a pvp build. Normally I would have just dropped but I just wanted to knock out my random and am missing a couple motifs from that dungeon yet and the duplicates sell decent still.

Varana · July 17

Because there is no solution.
You cannot enforce role compliance at a general level.

If you require a "tanking test", or require to have a taunt slotted - I can swap gear and skills freely, and no one can force me to actually use my taunt.
A "healing test" is inherently nonsense - as noted, you're often better off without a healer anyway, and even with one, it's more about buffing the group and doing additional damage, than raw healing, with very few exceptions.

As has been noted, the Holy Trinity in ESO is a rather fluid concept. You can swap roles really easily by just changing some skills around, especially in easier/older content.
You can breeze through a lot of content without a clear role designation, if everyone is competent enough. Tanking gets progressively harder the less damage the group does, and healing becomes more necessary with less than optimal groups in the same way. It's a sliding scale in three dimensions.

Koshka · July 17

L_Nici wrote: »

An

Orbital78 wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

Why do the people that Que up properly have to suffer?

Because you didn't pre-form. Been there, done that, it is just as frustrating getting "pvp builds/players" in vet dlc content that are using a sword and shield. I had to carry one through vet Oathsworn pit the other night. Luckily the tank and healer were decent and I was on my best dps.

As if any actual PvPler would queue with PvP Gear. Most their builds are able to clear most dungeons solo, as they can do the healing and tanking themselves, while doing damage. Sure it takes longer, yet they are totally able.

Lol I am not going to solo a vet dlc dungeon for someone just because they wanted a fast queue. Thankfully it's pretty rare to see fake tanks in vet queue, but if that happens, I'm out

Desiato · July 17

Orbital78 wrote: »

I as doing 70-80% of the group dps, and I did mention Veteran Oathsworn Pit I'm sure there are a few apex players that can solo that on vet or even hardmode maybe, but it is not the norm. The player was wearing a sword and shield as mentioned, and they said they were in a pvp build. Normally I would have just dropped but I just wanted to knock out my random and am missing a couple motifs from that dungeon yet and the duplicates sell decent still.

Yeah, pvp mains without pve builds can be comical in vet dungeons -- like when you get the transmutation buff -- but not necessarily completely useless. At least they will have 1hs or an ice staff equipped if they're the tank. And if they have pve builds, then they're just like any other player with a range of aptitude. Every pvp main knows AR is irrelevant.

I have had the 40k+ hp 1hs pvp dd in vet dlc dungeons too! Oathsworn pit is one of the places they are most common.

On the broader subject...

To be clear, I think it's reckless and inconsiderate to queue in as fake tank in a random vet. Chances are they will just drop group unless it's a base game vet, wasting everyone's time. It's also inconsiderate to fake heal because a lot of real healers and dps may not be fully self-sufficient.

I accidentally queued into a random vet recently with my normal parse tank and felt super bad about it. It was red petal bastion. One DD quit right away, but I apologized and the other two were up for giving it a shot. We got through it with a subpar healer because at least my gear was real, but we wouldn't have with a fully fake tank. We had two wipes because, infuriatingly, they wouldn't give me 30 seconds to change my CP!!!

For vet dungeons, I am an advocate of some kind of undaunted role-based validation to help train players before they can access vet dlc dungeons. It could be a solo instance that ensures tanks understand the basics of tanking, healers understand hots, spot heals and orbs, and that DDs can at least parse 20k -- which is achievable just spamming one ability.

In my experience, it is FAR more common to get a low damage DD than a fake tank in a vet random. Like 5-10k dps. The game just doesn't prepare players for it.

Melivar · July 17

While it is an individual problem and it seems like there are so many people who hate fake roles it's likely 10 in 100 that are actually bad groups that can't complete the objective.

I pug 5-10 dungeons a week mostly vet non dlc and normal dlc when things are pledges and have gear I need to complete my sticker book as an actual dps. 50% of those groups have one or more of a fake tank, fake healer, or just bad dps. I may opt out of 1 group every 5-6 weeks because it's clear early that it isn't going to work for whatever reason.

The bad DPS is the actual issue more than the fake role in most of the DLC dungeons. In fact I used to be that bad DPS and have in the past apologetically bowed out of the group in hopes that the others may actually get a fast clear, you don't know for sure until you try and there is no harm in that. There are even cases currently when I am on a different character or am just having one of those days where I still feel the need to step out as I don't feel like I am doing my part.

If I am looking to actually get something done I will go to my guilds and form an actual group that can talk through things, sometimes those groups are a bigger struggle bus than a pug but we are all chatting and work through the issues

cyberjanet · July 17

Nobody should be allowed to queue for a random dungeon. Period. End of Problem.