What is your favorite expansion year in terms of storytelling??

Northwold · July 15

cyclonus11 wrote: »

What happened after Elsweyr that caused such a drop off?

Most obviously, Covid. When you're on a two year, two team development cycle that presumably screwed an awful lot up for both Greymoor and Blackwood. A key member of the narrative team also left around that time to work on other things who presumably had a fairly strong influence on the story side of earlier chapters (which is not to criticise later work -- games aren't written in a vacuum).

Koshka · July 15

Voted for Elsweyr, but actually I liked pretty much all story dlcs until 2020-2021. After that, it became a little too formulaic (even the party at the end is always the same!) and the tone of the story felt a bit off. Writing was a little bit too... safe, I guess? Don't get me wrong, ESO doesn't need to be super edgy, but I really miss Wrothgar writing.
That being said, there are some really good quests in the new chapters, Corelanya Manor is a great example.

Northwold · July 15

Desiato wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Thieves Guild (Hew's Bane) though this is rather unfair as the early content drops they had a lot more time to develop. It's pretty obvious when you look at them but was also confirmed in the recent podcast. The "year of" format then forced everyone into a production line mode of content creation. Perhaps, after this transitional year, they will be able to do things in this way again.

ESO had a much larger art team the first half of 2014 and a lot of the content that was rolled out the first couple of years was shown in advanced states during Quakecon 2014.

For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69ABAiQ87qA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqivTnEteG0

And even more than that!

When ESO was launched, we were promised an aggressive content release schedule of around every 4-6 weeks -- all included with our sub!! But after the bad launch, which resulted in a total refactor of the game and the business model (from sub to b2p to chapters) the content team was cut in half around August 2014 and we only got Craglorn the first year and a half.

Of course, this part of ESO's history isn't one they want to talk about as much!

IMO, it's also why the first few DLC zones had more detail and a fluid, hand-crafted feel compared to what came after. Like the basic ground geometry of zones like Summerset, High Isle, Western Skyrim, etc seem more jagged and generated to me somehow. Northern Elsweyr feels more like one of the early DLC zones though.

I think part of the reason I prefer much of the earlier content is simply the storytelling though, not just or even primarily the world design. Thieves Guild, in particular, has a tight, character focused story that feels like it was written for adults. They are real, three dimensional, flawed characters who care about real, relatable things. Not "oh my god daedric prince number 177 is going to destroy the world but obviously he won't really and here is cute comic relief who isn't funny".

Personally I loved Elsweyr as a zone and many of the side stories were strong, notably Jakarn's finest moment of character development, but I really didn't love the main story which I felt was already drifting into that amorphous <insert random threat that is too big and too generic then resolve it at the click of a finger> territory. Up to that point I think things had just about managed to hold together.

The thing about the earlier DLCs was that there didn't seem to be a need to make the main quest world threatening. Which made them much, much, much better. Later on ESO seemed to start tracking the same problem the main Elder Scrolls games suffer from that the main stories try to be sweeping and just end up empty as a result. To be honest I was feeling that with Summerset, which without Darien grounding it would have played pretty close to random end of the world nonsense. If there's nothing human in a story to hold on to, there's no reason to care.

Desiato · July 15

16BitForestCat wrote: »

Orsinium was never veteran. It was the first PvE DLC made specifically to be battle-leveled so everyone could play regardless of level. Back in 2014, Craglorn had done poorly with players on release because of its difficulty aimed at groups; so many people came to ESO from singleplayer Elder Scrolls titles, where you could also adjust the difficulty. They wanted to keep playing that way. (Or, like me, didn't yet have groups of friends in game to play with and had no luck forming PUG's at the odd hours I could play.)

ZOS decided to look more into battle-leveling options for content after Craglorn's weak showing, and Wrothgar was basically the test for that. The player response to this was so positive that it ended up paving the whole darn way for the One Tamriel game-wide battle-leveling system we're all still on in 2025.

Thank you for correcting me. I do recall that now. I posted a video that was created shortly after Orsinium's release and the character I was playing in it was less than level 10 at the time, so of course it couldn't have been VR15!

It was announced VR levels would be phased out by at least Quakecon 2014. I think battle levelling was decided upon by then, it just took them a long time to reach that point because there was so much in the game that needed to be finished. Not only in terms of broken/missing features, but transitioning to the Crown Store model required a 64 bit client. That was a bumpy transition.

I disagree Craglorn itself had a weak showing. It was incredibly active when it was relevant. It only really lost relevance in the months following IC and Orsinium after the level cap moved past it. I recall it being highly active the summer of 2015 and Belkarth was a popular craft hub. As active as ESO was then without new content for a year.

What had a weak showing was ESO itself. It launched unfinished and it would take them about two and a half years to get to what I consider a stable product from which they have iterated since, One Tamriel.

IMO, had it launched in a better state, I think it could have maintained much of its original MMO audience.

I'm certainly not trying to relitigate past though. That's all ancient history. However, I am excited they are again considering more difficult overland content and the concept of adventure zones. I enjoyed more challenging overland.

Jaimeh · July 15

The CWC -> Summerset arc is my favourite, and it was peak storytelling, imo, but I also enjoyed Murkmire and Markarth a lot.

spartaxoxo · July 15

Northwold wrote: »

To be honest I was feeling that with Summerset, which without Darien grounding it would have played pretty close to random end of the world nonsense. If there's nothing human in a story to hold on to, there's no reason to care.

I think this is something that they seem to have lost.

The Daedric Prince villains are all much more shallow than Rada al-Saran or King Kurog. I'm personally not in the camp that says this is a bad thing.

But if the villain is simply pure evil, then that means others around them have to be more in-depth. There should be greater emphasis on the impact such an evil force brings and the heroes should be complex. The reason that the Daedric War Arc worked better than Ithelia Arc is because of characters like Tundilwen (iykyk), Earl Leythen, and Valsirenn. They gave us something human to ground the story and they were not generic good guys hate evil things. Abnur and Khamira do the same for Elsweyr.

They try to substitute this for a half baked romance in Necrom but it doesn't work. And the Daedric characters remain as inhuman as ever.

Northwold · July 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

To be honest I was feeling that with Summerset, which without Darien grounding it would have played pretty close to random end of the world nonsense. If there's nothing human in a story to hold on to, there's no reason to care.

I think this is something that they seem to have lost.

The Daedric Prince villains are all much more shallow than Rada al-Saran or King Kurog. I'm personally not in the camp that says this is a bad thing.

But if the villain is simply pure evil, then that means others around them have to be more in-depth. There should be greater emphasis on the impact such an evil force brings and the heroes should be complex. The reason that the Daedric War Arc worked better than Ithelia Arc is because of characters like Tundilwen (iykyk), Earl Leythen, and Valsirenn. They gave us something human to ground the story and they were not generic good guys hate evil things. Abnur and Khamira do the same for Elsweyr.

They try to substitute this for a half baked romance in Necrom but it doesn't work. And the Daedric characters remain as inhuman as ever.

Agree with this. Velsa (I think she's called) in Thieves Guild is a stellar example of a compelling character. She is unpleasant, rude, imperious, has a non-plot related backstory, and both that and her plot motivations are revealed little by little as the story progresses both to move the plot and to deliver a deeper, more sympathetic understanding of the full person, thereby giving her an arc.

Contrast Princess Svana. A character who is barely a human being at all and whose entire existence is defined by the need to get the plot (and the player) from A to B. She has one independent personality trait: shrill enthusiasm. A stellar example of a bad character. She'd have been brilliant if she'd been written as an entitled, resentful brat. Instead we got cardboard cutout cliché who remains to all intents exactly the same at the end of the story as the beginning.

An even worse example was the Anchorite, who was literally presented to us as a nothing and was performed as such (one can't really fault the actress for this given the totally flavourless exposition dumps she was presented with). Why on earth are we supposed to care, and yet we are expected to spend all our time with her. (In fairness I can't judge the Anchorite's arc as I couldn't bear her to the point I couldn't bring myself to finish the story; it was like hanging out with drying paint.)

My own rule of thumb on this is "could the character credibly exist outside this story and be interesting in their own right." If so, they're good to go. If not, add more.

Edit: One thing they do seem to be getting a lot right is the companions, including their quirks, loves, hates, etc. That level of character depth independent of plot (and non-clichéd character construction) is what seems to have gone missing from some of the later chapters' major players. Just because it's not part of the plot doesn't mean it doesn't need to be there, even if the player doesn't know it. It shapes how characters behave and makes them 3D. Even Bastian, whom the devs seem to think dull, has enough depth to telegraph almost continuously a yearning for acceptance and an underlying insecurity that shapes the words coming out of his mouth without having anything to do with what he's actually talking about. That's good stuff.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 15

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Tariq9898 Thanks for starting this thread. Feedback here would be most appreciated. We will pass this along to the dev team. That way, they are aware of the narrative stories that have resonated with you.

There has been hundreds of posts like these over the years, and they all pretty much say the same thing. A bit odd focusing on this specific one now.

My vote is Orsinium, which is not a poll option

LootAllTheStuff · July 16

It was hard to vote for just one...

Elsweyr because this was always a place I wanted to visit from starting with Skyrim. And dragons. And then the Cadwell arc, which is what tipped my vote.

Western Skyrim/Reach for the Skyrim nostalgia, and a mostly enjoyable story.

Summerset because it was just beautiful, with a strong story and plenty of interesting side quests with equally strong writing.

Clockwork city because very different conceptually, and again the writing.

I did enjoy West Weald/Necrom, but honestly felt the writing was not as good. Apart from anything else, the constant and almost immediate prompting from Leramil when it was obvious what you needed to do, you just needed a bit of time to get yourself organized. And, increasingly, plot twists that you can see coming a mile off that aren't really twists, and your character being a heck of a lot dumber than you the player (see for example the big reveal in High Isle/Hew's Bane about how the Big Bad was, which I'd figured out before defeating the Not-Quite-So-Big Bad in High Isle). I miss writing that made me think more, be less obvious, more nuanced, older (if you know what I mean).

Reginald_leBlem · July 16

There was a lot to love about Elsweyr, but Summerset holds a place in my heart.

darkriketz · July 16

Really good question.

While I often love the setting (Vvardenfell - I've never played Morrowind and Oblivion was my first TES, Summerset, High Isle, even Blackwood, much less "swampy" than the rest of Argonian territory), I don't remember much of the storylines, sadly. I loved everything around the Three Banners leaders and the peace meeting in High Isle, but I'm not sure I've fully understood what concerns the druids and Firesong.

Blackwood was more or less an Oblivion revival to me (Mehrunes Dagon, daedric cult, Tamriel invasion, imperial defenders...) and I really hate the grim ambience in Western Skyrim (Far Horizons is my favorite Skyrim music, I'm more a "beautiful landscapes and travels" kind of player). Elsweyr storyline was meh and I hate Herma Mora, Apocrypha and everything about them. I could have loved Ithelia's sad story, but again, Mora is involved.

I'd say Summerset, because it's more or less the sequel to Morrowind/Clockwork City that I already liked, there are several Daedric Princes involved, we get to see Darien again and a much darker side of Meridia who also likes human playthings after all, there's an intimate family story in the Psijic subplot, and I found really interesting that my girl Nocturnal turned into an evil cunning sorceress. Bad Nocturnal, bad.
At least my beloved goddess Azura has never shown a truly hateful, tyrannic and cruel to humans side. So far.

YstradClud · July 16

High Isle for me but that's probably because I am a Breton irl

The cinematics were kick-ass as well.

Finedaible · July 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The Year 1 stories: Imperial City, Orsinium, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

Those stories are still the best this game has ever had. Sure, I personally could take or leave the TG and DB guilds themselves, but the characters in them are so compelling. And Wrothgar as a whole is still the best Chapter this game has ever done, even though it wasn't a Chapter.

In terms of gameplay, it's hands down whenever we got a new Class in 2017, 2019, and 2023. Being able to make a new character and experience the whole world in a completely different way is great, and I love the level up process and making each of my backstories feel unique. I really hope that I'll get another chance to do that soon...

The Drake of Blades was the true hero of Tamriel, and no one will ever know it. I really miss how well-written all those characters were.

Grizzbeorn · July 16

Greymoor.
I have Northern European Ice in my blood, so I am partial to the Nord culture in this game, as well as a fondness for cold-weather climes, so Skyrim and the Reach are kinda my favorite areas.
Also, and not the least of which, because witches, werewolves, and vampires.

BUT, that isn't to take anything away from the rest of the game. I've been able to find something to love about every zone and culture in Tamriel, as well as the music in every zone.

twisttop138 · July 16

I thought Orsinium was fantastic. No earth shattering goings on. Just a regional political issue. The zone was big, there's a lot to do. Free gold recipes and other cool quest rewards. I was pretty new to ESO when it dropped and I was very impressed. See that there was no option for it kinda disappointed me.

Of the options, Morrowind was top notch though Summerset was also good. It's sad that they don't make them like that anymore.

joehoe625 · July 16

I'll take a wild one but Blackwood/The Deadlands is my favourite thing since Wrothgar. I loved everything about it. Honestly, High Isle was nowhere as bad as I expected it to be regarding the people's overall opinions

redlink1979 · July 16

Orsinium

whitecrow · July 16

Finedaible wrote: »

The Drake of Blades was the true hero of Tamriel, and no one will ever know it. I really miss how well-written all those characters were.

Yeah, that was really moving. I remember it was a long time before I even realised she had a story to play through. I thought she was just there to greet me when I went into IC!

Cooperharley · July 16

It’s gone down hill almost yearly since summerset. I enjoyed the theme and environment of Greymoor though!

Mesite · July 16

Daedric war? What daedric war?

I might have to go back to Summerset. Maybe back to the beginning again.

AVaelham · July 16

My personal ranking (and spoilers for each arc, beware!)

2018 - Summerset, Daedric War
The culmination of the Daedric War Storyline was peak ESO era. While it wasn't perfect (hello Nocturnal's random model), it really felt like a world-end threat spanning the continent, not just an isolated, stuck in time conflict (like some storylines were in later years). There was a moment of respite after it too with Murkmire, everyone was excited to see what we're getting next.
2017 - Morrowind, Vvardenfell, Daedric War
The first Chapter and the first Act in the Daedric War Storyline. Vvardenfell will always hold a special place in my heart. It is Morrowind in the second era, through and through. And the Clockwork City was the mechanical cherry on top.
2019 - Elsweyr, Dragons
The Season of the Dragon saw the introduction of yearly story arcs, which was fine at first. Unfortunately, by this time, we got stuck in the never-ending year of 2E 583, when all the story arcs seem to happen. The story itself was good, we got a lot more Dragon lore than I thought we'd get. I would've preferred a story arc related to the Khajiiti religion, the persecution of the old faith etc. (Zerith-Var quests for example are really well done in that regard).
2021 - Blackwood, Deadlands, Mehrunes Dagon
The Ambitions were a good premise. It was interesting to explore the reign of various Longhouse Emperors. The Blackwood section was mid, Fargrave being the saving grace of this arc. Ultimately, Gates of Oblivion didn't feel like a world spanning event like in TES IV, but more like Mehrunes Dagon trying to conquer Blackwood and the rest of the world didn't give a thought about it.
2023 - Necrom, Hermaeus Mora
A very intriguing premise. The Telvanni Peninsula felt a bit lacking, I was expecting far more Telvanni lore than we got. I suppose Mora was the big star this year. For the "buildings the foundation" part of the story arc, Necrom did its work well.
2020 - Greymoor, Western Skyrim, vampires + Markarth
The resurgence of the ancient army of vampires and werewolves somehow didn't feel as threatening as I thought it would be. The main story in Western Skyrim was pretty milquetoast, but then came Markarth and the Reach, with a lot more interesting lore concepts and revelations about the Dark Heart of Skyrim. Rada al-Saran was an interesting character.
2024 - Gold Road, West Weald, Ithelia
The most disappointed I've been with a story arc in a long while. Might as well rename Ithelia as the Daedric Prince of Wasted Potential. Oh you wanted the Recollection of Ithelia storyline? Nah, let's focus on how the forest has invaded the Gold Road, the resurgence of Ayleid identity within the Bosmer communities and how colonisation is somehow fine if your magical forest grows over someone else's lands. Anyway, back to Ithelia - Daedric Prince of Status Quo. I felt more sympathetic towards her than Mora honestly. I kept waiting for the plot-twist that all this time Mora was planning something and we were just pawns in the game but no, Mora is the good tentacle guy and this lady is destined to be an abomination. And her relations with other Magna-Ge is not explored at all. UGH. In the end, the neverending 2E 583 is held in place, gods forbid! Everyone forgets this Chapter existed - sadly not including me.
2022 - High Isle, Bretons
Based on rumours about the Soulfire Dragon Illusion pet, I thought for this year we'd get something related to Akatosh, perhaps a continuation of a thread lingering related to Magnus from the Gates of Oblivion. Then they've announced that the Chapter will focus on more mundane things. Oh boy, I didn't know how mundane things were going to get. Nothing really sparked my interest about this story arc, the Druids were an afterthought compared to the storylines we have in the base zones. The Ascendant Order were a bunch of morons, evil for evil's sake.

As for the current story arc, Seasons of the Worm ranks at the moment just below Necrom, but I won't give spoilers just yet. I love the fact that the world is progressing (small steps, but hey!). We might even be in...wait for it, 2E 584!!!!!

Seminolegirl1992 · July 17

I used to always say Summerset, but the more I think on Greymoor, the more I realized how impactful its story was, or at least the smaller Reach expansion to that storyline. So, the patch itself is definitely Summerset, but Greymoor story, largely because of how likeable Verandis is. Fantastic voice acting, and the story felt genuinely impactful

ADarklore · July 17

Honestly... I get your talking 'Chapters' but I think the BEST story telling was in Orsinium, hands down... and I know MANY others would agree.

Lugaldu · July 17

My favorite chapters are Gerymoor and Necrom, as I enjoy the themes (vampires, Hermaeus Mora) the most, and I also like many of the additional features like the Antiquity-system and the companions Azandar and Sharp the best of anything that's come out so far.
Orsinium, Morrowind, and Summerset are highly praised for their storylines, but I wasn't able to fully grasp or enjoy these chapters at the time. This is because I started ESO with Summerset, and I had no idea what order to play things in, so I played everything randomly, which lost the drama of the stories. Therefore, these chapters don't hold much emotional value for me (I should play them all over again...).

katanagirl1 · July 18

I never really get into the main zone stories, but some of the side quests have really great stories to tell. They have more of an emotional impact, they are usually more personal stories involving the npc quest giver. Some of them even bring me to tears.

There is one I am think of now, but I can’t remember enough details to find it online. I think it was in Northern Elsweyr, you are trying to help a Khajiit free her sister’s spirit after a failed necromantic ritual. It might have been part of Zerith-var’s questline, which was amazing by the way. These stories of loss, redemption, and resolution are very powerful and touching.

I don’t know how these could be worked into a main story quest but if they could it would be more meaningful storytelling.

Syldras · July 18

My absolute favorites are the chapters and dlc of the Daedric War story arc - Morrowind, CWC and Summerset. Although I also very much enjoy the base game stories and the writing of the few smaller expansions that came between base game and the Daedric War story.

Elsweyr also wasn't bad. Greymoor I enjoyed for the theme and atmosphere. And then, I agree with many other players in that regard, it somehow got into a direction that appealed to me, personally, less than the earlier stories. High Isle I enjoyed least. After that, it got a little more interesting again, but it's still not comparable to the first few years for me.

We've discussed this several times over the years, and there were several threads about the writing recently. One thing that always comes up is the topic of complexity. Many people, and I'm one of them, dislike that characters seem to become increasingly clichéd and incomplex, that stories also become less complicated and dialogues more repetative with endless questions that often don't really seem necessary. Puzzles also aren't really puzzles anymore, now some just consist of clicking a thing until it clicks, no need to think about it at all. There seems to be a general tendency to make everything less difficult. And we've speculated whether that might be a result of the - actually in itself noble - intention to appeal to as many people as possible, to ensure accessibility, etc, but I get the feeling that simplifying things too much pushes many players away because they want something complex to think about a bit.

Same goes for the "safety" of writing. We rarely see big tragedies anymore. The dead always return somehow. It was different in the basegame stories, and in the earlier chapters. Sometimes, difficult choices had to be made, and there are situations where the outcome is always horrible, and we can't do anything against it. Characters we actually learned something about, who we developed sympathy for, because they were not just some one-dimensional placeholder to serve some obvious purpose in a story, actually died - in a tragic incident, or in sacrifice. These situations evoke emotions and are remembered. These are the quests and the characters people still talk about now, 10 years later, even if they were sad and tragic - no, probably not "even if" but "because".

We rarely have that anymore in later stories (with two exceptions, which happen to be my favorite stories of basically everything that came after Summerset: Zerith-var's story and the story in Corelanya Manor), and sometimes I wondered whether it was a deliberate choice not to upset anyone - but by keeping everything "safe", there's also not much that incites big emotions. A dangerous situation or tragic plot twist doesn't really feel meaningful if we know that nothing "actually" happens, no one will die or the dead will return anyway, and then we have a happy ending and everything is just fine, nothing had any bigger emotional impact. In my opinion, the stories should not shy away from tragic situations and difficult topics. It has always been a part of TES, and I think many players expect exactly these kind of stories if they play a TES game.

Also, I'd like to see a focus on Tamriel's cultures and traditions that does not just mirror current modern era real world morals. More creativity. We're coming across the habits of completely different fictional people, in fictional countries, in a fictional universe, in some medieval-ish (quite, but not completely) era. It would be expected that they all have different habits, traditions and beliefs, some of them obscure, some maybe outright questionable, from today's real world perspective. That's a big appeal of this fictional world, and has always been a big interest to me: To explore cultures and traditions that are different and unfamiliar to me, compared to what I come across in my normal life every day.

And when I see these different traditions, I don't want any moral classification for them either, as I am very capable of drawing my own conclusions about what I see. And also, this is roleplay - I want to define for myself how my player character, as a person inside this fictional world, reacts on these things. Because an Altmer player character might view things differently than a Bosmer character or an Orc character, and all of them might not necessarily have the same sentiments that a current day real world human might have. I don't want to feel "forced" to make moral judgements from a real world modern human perspective if, within the narration, my Bosmer or Dunmer character might have a completely different view, based on how they were raised in their fictional society.

Cerbolt · July 18

I enjoyed them all up to greymoor, after that there seemed to be a huge drop in writing quality. I want the complexity and morally greyness back. That's what the elder scrolls is known for and it's not the same without it.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 18

I'm surprised how many says Greymoor, because what I mostly remember from that story was how annoying the main story was with bad writing. So much repeating dialogue, and how often there was something mysterious and bad happening that was so obvious it hurt. It was Harrowstorms every time, but the npcs where all wHat cOulD it bE. Felt like some angry sportfan screaming at the screen. The Solitude King was yet another obnoxiously obvious bad guy in a long line of them in ESO's writing now.

Frayton · July 18

Summerset by far, and then Elsweyr as runner up. That was peak ESO and the decline happened shortly afterwards.

spartaxoxo · July 18

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I'm surprised how many says Greymoor, because what I mostly remember from that story was how annoying the main story was with bad writing. So much repeating dialogue, and how often there was something mysterious and bad happening that was so obvious it hurt. It was Harrowstorms every time, but the npcs where all wHat cOulD it bE. Felt like some angry sportfan screaming at the screen. The Solitude King was yet another obnoxiously obvious bad guy in a long line of them in ESO's writing now.

The weakness of Greymoor is made up for by the strength of The Reach for me. Also Greymoor gave us Fennorian and he's a favorite for me