Pure Classes feel neglected

spartaxoxo · July 11

It feels like all of the recent balance changes have been purely about making subclasses feel more balanced based off how they are being used with no regard to how it impacts players who opt out of using the system. I actually like the concept of the system and while I haven't had a lot of time to play lately as it is my busiest time of year, I have been looking forward to making some of my classes into the subclass system. But, my plan was to leave some of my characters with their original kits. And that feels less and less like a real option.

There's been longstanding issues with pure class balancing where some skills have just always felt bad to play with. So, you focused on certain skills. Those same skill now are popular in subclassing too.

Rather than address this by fixing this long issue that would make both pure classing and subclassing feel better, pure classes feel completely disregarded in the balance changes. They current plan seems to make them less and less competitive with subclassing.

Which is honestly a real bummer. Subclassing does not fit the vision I have for all of my characters, and I am someone who actually enjoys this change (at least in theory).

If even I feel like this than I can't imagine how awful this game's current direction feels for people who don't want to use this system at all.

ImmortalCX · July 11

Yes they do.

BXR_Lonestar · July 11

I don't know if I necessarily agree.

Take what I have to say with a grain of salt because I haven't played A LOT of PVP with the subclassing active because of the vengeance campaign, but before the vengeance campaign came out, I was playing heavily on my Pure Templar Brawler. I won't discuss my build, but I use skills from all 3 Templar class skill lines and I couldn't find an adequate substitute on other class lines, so I just used him as is. And I noticed that all of the other players who were playing with subclassed builds still did not have enough damage to overwhelm the damage reduction I have on my back bar, and they gave up a lot of resilience and survivability in order to gain that extra damage. So in most cases, my pure class templar felt like it actually got stronger, even though I didn't really change anything for him.

These were not so-called scrub players either, this is against regulars that I see in my campaign on a day to day basis. Now maybe they hadn't perfected their builds at that time or were experimenting, and this will change in the long-run, but maybe it won't. Just throwing out there what I observed from playing on my brawler.

tomofhyrule · July 11

Pureclasses are neglected. An a lot of this is the fact that the devs can't imagine that people would want to stay pure.

I have some StreamTeam friends who tested an early build of Subclassing and were able to talk to the devs about it. They said that one of the common things people told the devs after trying it was "it's fun, but we don't like that is really makes pure class builds underpowered compared to Subclassed builds," and the devs' responce was "wait, you think people would willingly not do Subclassing?"

And as we see, nerfing individual skills or skill lines because they're OP when Subclassed directly means that players who use those lines without subclassing are just getting handed nerf after nerf.

What they need to do is give power back to pureclass builds. There are a few ways to do that, but any way will not be popular, especially for people who do like Subclassing

Give a unique bonus of X% to damage/healing/resists/etc. for every class line a character has that matches their base Class
Reduce damage/healing/resists/etc. by X% for every Subclass line taken
Adjust passives on each of the lines to require slotting or even using skills of that line

Adjusting the passives is probably the best option, but the hardest. The solution I favor would be changing every Class passive to a three-step version instead of two steps like they have now... but make it so you can only buy the steps that match the number of other lines that match the Class - so a pure DK can buy the 3rd level for all passives, but a fully subclassed character can only buy the first level of each passive. That would cut the power of the lines people are taking purely for passives, but also give the power back to pure builds.
Also we've seen enough nerfs in the past few patches to just say that the third level of the passive could just be the unnerfed versions.

Desiato · July 11

It was clear what subclassing would mean for pure classes from the moment it was announced.

They are now part of the line of progression. Much like level 50 contrasted against the CP system. One gets to level 50, then they start earning CP to progress further. One gets to level 50 in their class and then begins subclassing to progress further.

I understand the attachment to pure classes. I felt it too prior to u46. I made a point of gearing up and playing all of my favorite characters before u46 understanding everything would change after. I waited until the day before release before deciding to continue playing ESO at an enthusiast level.

But with all that said, life has taught me to let go. Baggage and stagnation are terrible things. The game changes constantly. Sometimes one will like the changes, other they may not.

To me, the worst thing ZOS can do is try to engineer solutions to keep pure classes competitive.

Pure classes are already lost. It's not playing something called Nightblade or Dragonknight that had value. It was the individual design of each class, the synergies (I don't mean the synergy mechanic) between abilities and passives, and the play styles those resulted in. Those things are already gone to varying degrees and the process will continue regardless of whatever other changes they may decide on to make pure classes more powerful.

ZOS may try to boost pure classes in some cheap way through passive bonuses for each pure class skill line used or something silly like that, but that won't give us our pre-u46 classes back. They are lost forever at this point. RIP. The best thing to do is let go and move on according to the new rules of the game.

I've been through this a lot over the years. Do I ever miss my 1.6-2.3 PVP builds! Or the characters I used to solo vet coa 2 when it was a challenge to do so prior to DLC dungeons.

Nightblades used to have a skill called agony which was sort of like dk's petrify, except with a higher skill cap because if the CC'd player was damaged, the CC would end and they'd have CC immunity at no cost to them. It was so much fun because not only would I have to avoid damaging my opponent in PVP -- unless it was part of the final burst combo -- they would sometimes expect me to and not break free immediately, so there was an interesting interplay.

Agony was replaced by Malevolent Offering as one of the first steps towards their class homogenization efforts. I was so embittered for so long and I deeply regret it now. It's just a game. The best thing to do is choose if you want to continue playing and if you do, adapt and embrace.

Don't make the mistake I did by becoming encumbered by a change in a video game.

Alaztor91 · July 11

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I have some StreamTeam friends who tested an early build of Subclassing and were able to talk to the devs about it. They said that one of the common things people told the devs after trying it was "it's fun, but we don't like that is really makes pure class builds underpowered compared to Subclassed builds," and the devs' responce was "wait, you think people would willingly not do Subclassing?"

From the same people that said: ''If you don't like pets, just swap out the skill line''.
The same people that changed Puncturing Strikes to use a Vampire themed ''spear'' design that isn't even used by the other Aedric Spear skills.
The same people that took almost 2 years to address the Grim Focus ''permaglow'' issue.

Imagine thinking that some players would like to keep playing the Class they selected at character creation and not suck. I'm sure that everyone who created their characters back in 2014 was just patiently waiting the last decade for Subclassing, not a single one of them wants to remain ''Pure Class'' after 10 years right?

What does RPG even stands for anyways?

Desiato · July 11

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Imagine thinking that some players would like to keep playing the Class they selected at character creation and not suck.

How does your character now suck? What could you do before that you can't do now?

That is, in terms of content, what is the practical impact to you?

Alaztor91 · July 11

Desiato wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Imagine thinking that some players would like to keep playing the Class they selected at character creation and not suck.

How does your character now suck? What could you do before that you can't do now?

That is, in terms of content, what is the practical impact to you?

There is nothing I can do to compensate for losing 2x skill lines with damage passives if I want to DPS as a ''Pure Class''. This isn't even taking into consideration the active skills, just losing access to those passives alone(by not Subclassing) leaves me in an objectively worse state as a DPS. Same logic applies for the other 2 roles.

The ''trade-off'' argument that ZOS uses doesn't apply since I wasn't slotting my Class Tank/Heal skills when DPSing anyways. I lose some minor bonuses related to Tank/Heal due to some Class passives not requiring you to have slotted skills, but then again those are irrelevant if my role is DPS. If content actually requires me to slot something like a self-heal or shield there are non-Class options available so even if you go full 3x DPS lines, you aren't really losing anything.

tomofhyrule · July 11

Desiato wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Imagine thinking that some players would like to keep playing the Class they selected at character creation and not suck.

How does your character now suck? What could you do before that you can't do now?

That is, in terms of content, what is the practical impact to you?

A lot of people make this argument. There are two factors to it: a gameplay and a social factor.

Gameplay is easy. We've straight up seen nerfs to Class lines because of Subclassing. As an example: before U46, DK's main source of sustain was casting ultimates to restore resources via Battle Roar. A pure DK would normally have a Charged weapon to keep resources high from a flame/poison enchant on their weapon to take advantage of the Combustion passive (1000 mag/stam when applying Burning/Poisoned), cast their ult to get their sustain back (50 of each resource per ult point spent), and continue to attack with their expensive skills. After Subclassing, Combustion was nerfed by over 50% (down to 423 mag/stam) and Battle Roar nerfed by over 25% (down to 37 of each), and in addition a lot of ult gen from other sources like groupmates was nerfed (Pearls and Pillagers), with a further nerf to the Mountain's Blessing passive coming in U47. This means a pure DK has significantly less sustain, and also less ult gen as well, so you bottom on resources much faster than before. It stands to reason that if you don't have your resources to cast skills anymore (or block or heal for other roles), then you will be less effective.
And yes, it is very noticeable. In my overland 'for fun' build, I'm not even able to get my three stacks of Seething Fury consistently before being bottomed on mag, and a few weapon skills are enough to drop my stam to zero. In order to play, I'm essentially heavy attack weaving instead of light attacks just to have some resources.

Now the social factor is the one a lot of people ignore, and I think it's because a lot of people go through thinking "eww, I don't like other people."
Let's face it: when you do group content, you are expected to perform. If you have to accomplish a task as a group, why would you willingly not show up and do your best? People who choose not to Subclass are quite literally saying "I realize that this is not the best build I could use, and I don't care. I expect you all to carry the rest of the damage just so I don't have to change my setup for you."
That's... rude. Seriously. If someone said that to me in real life, you bet I wouldn't want them around me. But somehow, it seems ESO players (and the devs!) are like "yeah, people you group with are essentially NPCs so you can do whatever."

Look, do you need to Subclass to complete the content? No, of course not. But what is someone supposed to think when you show up and you directly state "I don't want to change my build to something that is 50% more effective because I shouldn't have to change myself just to play with you." The raid lead is also perfectly at liberty to say "Hey, that's cool, but I'm going to take this other person instead of you since they do want to play as a team."
That is not toxicity. That's facing consequences for your actions. You don't want to work with others, and therefore they don't want to play with you.

As such, there is also a lot of social pressure to Subclass whether you want to or not. True, some people do not feel social pressures that way, but that doesn't mean those pressures don't exist.

Kalle_Demos · July 11

I'll take 'We told you this would happen' for 500, Alex.

Ragnarok0130 · July 11

Desiato wrote: »

It was clear what subclassing would mean for pure classes from the moment it was announced.

They are now part of the line of progression. Much like level 50 contrasted against the CP system. One gets to level 50, then they start earning CP to progress further. One gets to level 50 in their class and then begins subclassing to progress further.

I understand the attachment to pure classes. I felt it too prior to u46. I made a point of gearing up and playing all of my favorite characters before u46 understanding everything would change after. I waited until the day before release before deciding to continue playing ESO at an enthusiast level.

But with all that said, life has taught me to let go. Baggage and stagnation are terrible things. The game changes constantly. Sometimes one will like the changes, other they may not.

To me, the worst thing ZOS can do is try to engineer solutions to keep pure classes competitive.

Pure classes are already lost. It's not playing something called Nightblade or Dragonknight that had value. It was the individual design of each class, the synergies (I don't mean the synergy mechanic) between abilities and passives, and the play styles those resulted in. Those things are already gone to varying degrees and the process will continue regardless of whatever other changes they may decide on to make pure classes more powerful.

ZOS may try to boost pure classes in some cheap way through passive bonuses for each pure class skill line used or something silly like that, but that won't give us our pre-u46 classes back. They are lost forever at this point. RIP. The best thing to do is let go and move on according to the new rules of the game.

I've been through this a lot over the years. Do I ever miss my 1.6-2.3 PVP builds! Or the characters I used to solo vet coa 2 when it was a challenge to do so prior to DLC dungeons.

Nightblades used to have a skill called agony which was sort of like dk's petrify, except with a higher skill cap because if the CC'd player was damaged, the CC would end and they'd have CC immunity at no cost to them. It was so much fun because not only would I have to avoid damaging my opponent in PVP -- unless it was part of the final burst combo -- they would sometimes expect me to and not break free immediately, so there was an interesting interplay.

Agony was replaced by Malevolent Offering as one of the first steps towards their class homogenization efforts. I was so embittered for so long and I deeply regret it now. It's just a game. The best thing to do is choose if you want to continue playing and if you do, adapt and embrace.

Don't make the mistake I did by becoming encumbered by a change in a video game.

That is a lot of words to say "I give up".

Desiato · July 11

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

That is a lot of words to say "I give up".

Yeah, well, subclassing in ESO isn't a sword to die on. I would assume almost everyone has more important challenges in their lives -- and if they don't think so, they're not looking hard enough.

This is a passtime. If one can't deal with a change after expressing their feedback, maybe they should consider doing something else.

Or do you actually think that the abundance of players who thought ESO 1.5 was best (because 1.6 was the biggest change ever in ESO) should still be angry about that? Do you think it was good for some people to hang onto that for years? I sure don't. Life is too short.

Alaztor91 wrote: »

There is nothing I can do to compensate for losing 2x skill lines with damage passives if I want to DPS as a ''Pure Class''. This isn't even taking into consideration the active skills, just losing access to those passives alone(by not Subclassing) leaves me in an objectively worse state as a DPS. Same logic applies for the other 2 roles.

That's not what I asked. The point I was making is that at a content level, your character is able to do all the things it could before. I've already said that relative to optimal subclassed character, a pure class is weaker. Part of progression now is moving past pure classes, just as players had to move past levels when CP was introduced.

The point is, those who want to keep playing how they did, can. No, you won't be as competitive compared to other players, but one can still perform well enough in any group outside of Vet HM trials if they want to.

If you choose not to adapt, that's on you. Just like it was on the guys who hated the CP system when it was introduced and chose not to use it. For every major addition to the game, there's a group of players who don't want to change and fight tooth and nail against it to their detriment.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

As such, there is also a lot of social pressure to Subclass whether you want to or not. True, some people do not feel social pressures that way, but that doesn't mean those pressures don't exist.

I would call those internal social pressures because outside of the more competitive trial groups, I have not even heard of that kind of social pressure being applied. It's like the players who didn't want dps meters in console because they didn't want to be bullied. Bullied by who?!! I've never seen anyone actually bullied for low dps in any dungeon pug. And my trial tank sometimes out-damages the DDs in vet dungeon pugs. Bad dps players are everywhere already and no one really cares unless it's an hm prog.

Yeah, the competitive reality is that someone who chooses not to adapt will be less competitive, just like someone who chooses not to play optimal builds, which is most players.

It's funny because on my mule I'm levelling subclassing by playing bad subclassed builds that are worse than pure classes and I'm still doing more than my share of dps 99% of the time and when I don't, no one cares and there's no problem at all. Personal aptitude is still what's most important. And I'm not even a good player.

What's happening now has happened constantly throughout ESO's history. Major changes happen. The best thing to do is express one's feedback and if it's not heeded, get on with it, one way or another. Encumbering oneself with video game baggage is a waste of time and energy.

Edit: I was thinking about this further about the times I have been bullied in dungeon pugs. It's only happened a few times and it's because I did too much dps, thus killing things to quickly. I didn't rush ahead, I didn't pull anyone into an encounter, but I've been kicked from groups for playing the game too well!

Honestly, anyone who learns how to play the game and plays with a competent build can be very effective and thus valued by other players. And those who don't, no change to the game is going to help them improve or hold them back. A player who takes the time to learn how to play, regardless of age, can do well with a 1 bar heavy attack pure class build.

DenverRalphy · July 11

Desiato wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Imagine thinking that some players would like to keep playing the Class they selected at character creation and not suck.

How does your character now suck? What could you do before that you can't do now?

That is, in terms of content, what is the practical impact to you?

While I wouldn't use the "now suck" vernacular, there is the point that in nerfing (sorry... adjusting) class passives to compensate for subclassing power creep, pure classes are taking a performance hit.

So while I wouldn't say "now suck", I will say "not as effective as they were pre-subclassing".

Urzigurumash · July 11

No CP PvPer:

I love the nerfs to DK's sustain, the class still needed toned down, even after the 13% Damage Reduction via the nerf to Undeath. I mained the class from 2015 to 2022 but had to move to others when it became too easy to play. I'm back on a pure DK now and it feels great to be home.

spartaxoxo · July 11

Desiato wrote: »

. Major changes happen. The best thing to do is express one's feedback and if it's not heeded, get on with it, one way or another. Encumbering oneself with video game baggage is a waste of time and energy.

I feel like this argument is projecting a bit. People can experience something that annoys them. Express that feeling. Still be mildly annoyed on the rare occasion that it comes up. But then go about their lives completely unencumbered and without carrying any baggage.

This is literally a feed back forum specifically for capturing player sentiment about the game so ofc commentary is focused on it.

ForumBully · July 12

It sounds like the complaint is that not taking 3 damage skill lines is weaker than taking 3 damage skill lines.

tomofhyrule · July 12

ForumBully wrote: »

It sounds like the complaint is that not taking 3 damage skill lines is weaker than taking 3 damage skill lines.

It's a bit more than that.

It's that some Classes have delinated lines so they can give up their support lines and take more damage, but other Classes have their damaging skills more spread out so you lose damage by taking other things.
It's that some Class lines are clearly overpowered with respect to their passives when others aren't.
It's that Classes used to have identity, and now they're a mishmosh of whatever's the best.
It's that some Class skills allow you to have massive shields and/or heals in addition to massive damage, making the idea of "dropping your support stuff to be a glass cannon" a bit flawed since you don't become a glass cannon.
And it's by far the most radical change in how you're supposed to play in the past 11 years.

nadrokal · July 12

Maybe there's a way to have both hybrid and nonhybrid classes functional and somewhat balanced. Given the fact that we have to actually level the subclass versions of these skills, while those who had them "naturally" had their own levels, is there no way to leverage this for balance? Like, if my DK has all 3 DK skill lines, he has Skill Line Version A. If he switches out a skill line, he gets the stats etc of the Skill Line Version B, just at his native xp level. I'm probably not saying this as clearly as I wish, but hopefully the intent is clear enough.

This way my pure class DK could have his standard ultimate generation, but if he switches out a line for like Winter's Embrace or whatever the skill switches to the version with the heroism system. I wouldn't feel punished for keeping all three nightblade skill lines after Grim Focus gets nerfed. I know and expect Zos to upset the apple cart every now and again but this two steps forward, three back situation is just frustrating.

katanagirl1 · July 12

Subclassed builds have much higher dps than pure class builds and the devs want to nerf things. Nerf the skills that are subclassed instead of pure class. Problem solved.

Yudo · July 12

--> Create character, pick class, give it identity.
--> Level character, unlock skills, follow class advisory.
--> Geared up, max level, playstyle finally ready.
==> Just kidding, just a bait, subclass baby!

SwimsWithMemes · July 12

nadrokal wrote: »

Maybe there's a way to have both hybrid and nonhybrid classes functional and somewhat balanced. Given the fact that we have to actually level the subclass versions of these skills, while those who had them "naturally" had their own levels, is there no way to leverage this for balance? Like, if my DK has all 3 DK skill lines, he has Skill Line Version A. If he switches out a skill line, he gets the stats etc of the Skill Line Version B, just at his native xp level. I'm probably not saying this as clearly as I wish, but hopefully the intent is clear enough.

This way my pure class DK could have his standard ultimate generation, but if he switches out a line for like Winter's Embrace or whatever the skill switches to the version with the heroism system. I wouldn't feel punished for keeping all three nightblade skill lines after Grim Focus gets nerfed. I know and expect Zos to upset the apple cart every now and again but this two steps forward, three back situation is just frustrating.

The Devs have demonstrated that they hdo not care for player feedback in relation to making subclassing interesting. This would likely require actual developer time and creativity. All balance concerns have been ignored, the PTS had dozens of pages of feedback and creative suggestions. All ignored.

There has been no indication that there is any care for making unique buffs or skills available to any considerations, or any restrictions outside of the grindy double exp and double skill points (which is just a forged engagement metric).

I would be more than happy for this to be completely wrong, but it has been months and there is no change in the communication style. It's always promises to do better, but no follow through.

Yudo · July 12

No matter how you twist it, imo pure class should have been more proficient with their own skills than a subclass abomination that can use the skills at greater performance.

Liukke · July 12

This is actually the only MMO I've ever seen where subclassing is mandatory...it's not a nuance or a different gameplay, it's just better.

[snip]
Sure it's "fun" now but it also led to builds becoming all the same, with 99% of dps having an assassination skill and probably going 2h backbar and runes front bar with some variation of it.
Tanks have all soldier of apocrypha, winter's embrace and earthen earth...the paradox of multiple choice just narrowed everything.

Class identity is gone, aside from the fact that 99% of the players you encounter just beam their way around, the whole game has been washed out in an effort of increasing diversity...ah the irony, [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Desiato · July 12

Liukke wrote: »

This is actually the only MMO I've ever seen where subclassing is mandatory...it's not a nuance or a different gameplay, it's just better.

It's not even close to mandatory unless one is in an HM core or plays in pug HMs/trifectass. Pure classes are not ruined or unplayable.

The kind of player who will feel compelled to run HoT/Assassination as the base of their DD was already playing the meta before u46 and it's actually less restrictive than before. Prior to u46, everyone was complaining they "had" to play arcanist, even though that wasn't close to true.

I play with some 1 bar players including an oakensorc and they're just fine. Like all things in ESO, it's more about the player. They don't have to be highly skilled, but need to be attentive and intelligent enough to follow instructions and not stand in red... in vet content. In open world and normals, all one has to do is press any combination of buttons and eventually things will work out!

Not all tanks need to play that combination at all, although that is a typical MT configuration. There is currently far greater variety in support configurations than before subclassing, as one might expect. But many players WANT a standard to emerge to make open runs and GF pugs easier to facilitate.

I'm a trial tank sometimes in a small vet trial guild and at the start of subclassing, me and the other tank were so busy figuring out our DDs that we tanked with dual pure necro tanks... and it was a total disaster, right?! Nope, it was totally fine and we did great.

A real problem in these forums is that readers who don't play end game or do challenging content are getting caught up in false narratives that spread like a fire. A person who doesn't play eso but reads the forums would think the game is melting down, but in reality everything is fine in-game. The biggest complaint I see in the wild is that the game is too easy. Normal dlc dungeons are as easy as delves now. We just melt everything in seconds unless it's a phased fight.

Pixiepumpkin · July 12

Subclassing drove me away from ESO. Been happily playing WOW and looking forward to their housing at the end of the year. Its nice to obtain mounts and cosmetics in game just for playing and its nice to be playing a real class once again.

Liukke · July 12

Desiato wrote: »

It's not even close to mandatory unless one is in an HM core or plays in pug HMs/trifectass. Pure classes are not ruined or unplayable.

The kind of player who will feel compelled to run HoT/Assassination as the base of their DD was already playing the meta before u46 and it's actually less restrictive than before. Prior to u46, everyone was complaining they "had" to play arcanist, even though that wasn't close to true.

I play with some 1 bar players including an oakensorc and they're just fine. Like all things in ESO, it's more about the player. They don't have to be highly skilled, but need to be attentive and intelligent enough to follow instructions and not stand in red... in vet content. In open world and normals, all one has to do is press any combination of buttons and eventually things will work out!

Not all tanks need to play that combination at all, although that is a typical MT configuration. There is currently far greater variety in support configurations than before subclassing, as one might expect. But many players WANT a standard to emerge to make open runs and GF pugs easier to facilitate.

I'm a trial tank sometimes in a small vet trial guild and at the start of subclassing, me and the other tank were so busy figuring out our DDs that we tanked with dual pure necro tanks... and it was a total disaster, right?! Nope, it was totally fine and we did great.

A real problem in these forums is that readers who don't play end game or do challenging content are getting caught up in false narratives that spread like a fire. A person who doesn't play eso but reads the forums would think the game is melting down, but in reality everything is fine in-game. The biggest complaint I see in the wild is that the game is too easy. Normal dlc dungeons are as easy as delves now. We just melt everything in seconds unless it's a phased fight.

Well of course things work just fine, the content is the same as it was before subclassing (except Solstice). It needs to be completed with pure classes, in all its achievements.
But you either play casually with a bunch of people that is ok with that or your pureclass build that does half the dps of a casual subclassed build and a third of a meta subclass build will just stay behind, a lot.
The newer content in the future will be based upon these new numbers, on the 170-180k dps that some are throwing, and your dual pure necro tanks will barely manage to hold a normal trial in a few years. That's why people complain, it's working now (although it works with people who accept it and don't whine about your tank being pure class) but it might not work anymore.

It's like when the light weaving was still a bug, before they declared it a feature [snip] for fixing it. People were doing fine, but then the weaving became the needed meta and now without it you're throwing 40-50% of your damage in the drain, mostly because you almost can't charge ulti without it. On a side note, light weaving at least is fun and requires actual skill to perform consistently and fast.

What's worse is that the subclass brought all the buffs in the tanks and healers. As a stamDK DD I'm not useful anymore by casting the minor brutality on the whole group or staggering/debuffing, mr. tank is there for that, all the support that DDs brought in the past have now been eaten by tanks and healer, leaving DDs to choose 3 attack skill lines instead of having your single and two support ones.

I don't chase metas, I don't wanna do trifectas and speedruns, but it feels so tone deaf when you see developers announcing a new system that merges all classes without any pro/cons added, letting literally power piling up and leaving those who don't do it way behind.

It's this whole "ignoring the players" that in my opinion reminds me of the Arcanist, who brought an over the top new class for casuals to enjoy, that literally ran circles around all the others both in mega damage and mega sustain/shields.
Once again, if you don't believe me check the leaderboards. Arcanists are always the strongest by far, DKs are the lowest and have been for years (funnily enough, followed by the necros).
I checked the other day and the 2nd placed DK had the same points of the 60th placed Arcanist on a Maelstrom run, that is just wrong O_o it might bring in players but well...you have a game with a huge disparity between two classes (and more, but that's the example I'm familiar with), that's with the knowledge that the DK who had barely 590k points in the vMA was definitely not a complete DK, and despite the subclass couldn't keep up to the others.

So yeah, it's happening yet again, creating a new standard that pushes the numbers even higher, and the old classes even lower. That's the problem, those who complain just want a fully playable and enjoyable game and not seeing future content having bars set so high that they'll need to go into the metaverse (yeah, dumb pun I'm sorry, I wanted to say it).

[edited for bashing]

Desiato · July 12

Liukke wrote: »

I don't chase metas, I don't wanna do trifectas and speedruns, but it feels so tone deaf when you see developers announcing a new system that merges all classes without any pro/cons added, letting literally power piling up and leaving those who don't do it way behind.

So you're mad because the ceiling was raised for players who choose to make basic adaptations that you're not interested in, even though it doesn't affect the content you do. That's pretty much everyone in this thread.

It's not even a skill ceiling. Anyone can adapt if they choose. It's purely ideological. You didn't want the game to change in this way, so you're just not going to have it.

Alright then. So you're just like the guy in 2015 mad about the CP system.

spartaxoxo · July 12

The CP tree does not fundamentally alter gameplay in the manner that subclassing does. Subclassing isn't like different sets or CP becoming meta. Those are passive bonuses. It isn't even like the jabs change, which I also didn't like, because that was a single skill that had significant but ultimately minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things. The rhythm is different but ultimately you're still taking a spear and jabbing enemies multiple times for AOE damage (and possibly healing). This change drastically alters the core gameplay loop for every class that engages in it. I don't think there's any change to the game as drastic as this one, personally.

I think the devs should balance for and expect that some people would want to keep the core gameplay loops that they have enjoyed for the past 10 years.

Vulkunne · July 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It feels like all of the recent balance changes have been purely about making subclasses feel more balanced based off how they are being used with no regard to how it impacts players who opt out of using the system. I actually like the concept of the system and while I haven't had a lot of time to play lately as it is my busiest time of year, I have been looking forward to making some of my classes into the subclass system. But, my plan was to leave some of my characters with their original kits. And that feels less and less like a real option.

There's been longstanding issues with pure class balancing where some skills have just always felt bad to play with. So, you focused on certain skills. Those same skill now are popular in subclassing too.

Rather than address this by fixing this long issue that would make both pure classing and subclassing feel better, pure classes feel completely disregarded in the balance changes. They current plan seems to make them less and less competitive with subclassing.

Which is honestly a real bummer. Subclassing does not fit the vision I have for all of my characters, and I am someone who actually enjoys this change (at least in theory).

If even I feel like this than I can't imagine how awful this game's current direction feels for people who don't want to use this system at all.

Completely agree. Was just thinking about this after working on some things this morning. I think going forward before any further innovation is done, they should work on implementing a Pure Class vs Sub Class solution. Nothing fancy, expensive or over the top, just hammer out a way to keep them both competitive.

For example, my DK, after assessing how I utilize that character as well as how it's been used over time, there is simply no need whatsoever to Sub Class it. Its fixing something that is not broken. Forcing me to Sub Class would assume there is something wrong with it when there is not, thus no Sub Class is required in this instance.

On the other hand, NBs are a hit and miss. Some I wouldn't want to Sub Class, others need it badly. Again, it depends on the use-case for each. And this is not me complaining, this is intended as constructive criticism. And yes, I am appreciative of the Sub Class system however the direction for any changes or updates should be like a modification to existing systems and not considered a replacement proper with no after thought about how these changes could impact non-Sub Class systems.

Desiato · July 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The CP tree does not fundamentally alter gameplay in the manner that subclassing does. Subclassing isn't like different sets or CP becoming meta. Those are passive bonuses. It isn't even like the jabs change, which I also didn't like, because that was a single skill that had significant but ultimately minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things. The rhythm is different but ultimately you're still taking a spear and jabbing enemies multiple times for AOE damage (and possibly healing). This change drastically alters the core gameplay loop for every class that engages in it. I don't think there's any change to the game as drastic as this one, personally.

I think the devs should balance for and expect that some people would want to keep the core gameplay loops that they have enjoyed for the past 10 years.

It was fundamentally the same thing. It was a new progression system tacked on to levels. Players who were max level and happy to be there then had a new tree to climb if they wanted to be "competitive" and many didn't like it. Some protested like players are now by refusing to use it.

Furthermore, though the current CP system adds a lot of power, it's not even close to the original system! A few players literally nolifed the game for 6 months before the system was capped and were essentially demigods in ESO. /wave methuselah

Subclassing is essentially a new progression system on top of classes. Pure classes can still do all the things they could before, but to progress further, players must use the new system, just like they had to use CP if they wanted to progress further in 2015.

It's well-known a lot of people hate change, but it has been a fact of life in ESO from the start. Sometimes we like them, sometimes we don't. I hated almost all changes from 2016-2019 until I finally quit after years of being bitter about things I couldn't control. It was foolish.

Subclassing isn't going anywhere, so the thing to do is adapt to it. It is the new progression paradigm in the game. Until the next new thing -- and there will certainly be one because they need to add something new each year to keep us playing.

CalamityCat · July 12

I wouldn't say pure classes are just neglected, it feels like we're entirely forgotten.

But with every change and update, subclassing looks worse and less enjoyable. Update 47 makes me wonder if any of the devs understand the concepts of fun and variety. It just feels like classes are becoming more similar and homogenised. Looks kinda boring to me.

Subclassing just looks like a waste of time re-training skills, followed by making a build that is going to be a boring pick-and mix mess. Then re-build it all after the next update "balances" your skills and gear