Pure Classes feel neglected

spartaxoxo

Desiato wrote: »

It was fundamentally the same thing.

No. It wasn't. You didn't have to change your core gameplay to get CP. I know because I was there. There were people complaining because they played less often than others, meaning they leveled it up slower than others, meaning they were at a power disadvantage. But they did not have to sacrifice their characters to get more cp. They literally just had to keep doing what they were already doing anyway. Well, in terms of actual gameplay

Desiato

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

It was fundamentally the same thing.

No. It wasn't. You didn't have to change your core gameplay to get CP. I know because I was there. There were people complaining because they played less often than others, meaning they leveled it up slower than others, meaning they were at a power disadvantage. But they did not have to sacrifice their characters to get more cp. They literally just had to keep doing what they were already doing anyway. Well, in terms of actual gameplay

!!!

CP was introduced with the MOST impactful combat update in the history of the game, 1.6. Pretty much everything changed. Like it was a almost a different game. Everyone had to change how they played -- if they wanted to "be competitive."

Like you today, some players weren't having it. There was loud "bring back 1.5" crowd for at least a couple of years.

You're a console player, no? The consoles launched with CP.

spartaxoxo

Desiato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

It was fundamentally the same thing.

No. It wasn't. You didn't have to change your core gameplay to get CP. I know because I was there. There were people complaining because they played less often than others, meaning they leveled it up slower than others, meaning they were at a power disadvantage. But they did not have to sacrifice their characters to get more cp. They literally just had to keep doing what they were already doing anyway. Well, in terms of actual gameplay

!!!

CP was introduced with the MOST impactful combat update in the history of the game, 1.6. Pretty much everything changed. Like it was a almost a different game. Everyone had to change how they played -- if they wanted to "be competitive."

You're a console player, no? The consoles launched with CP.

I googled it because I distinctly remembered people being mad about cp. And I had a whole thing about the green tree. Looks like I'm conflating the Champion rework with the introduction of the system. That's my bad!

ETA

Although console did launch with vet levels as I did remember correctly.

Anyway, the additions of passive bonuses is in no way equivalent to deleting entire skill lines completely.

Desiato

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Anyway, the additions of passive bonuses is in no way equivalent to deleting entire skill lines completely.

Like I said, 1.6 was a lot more than CP, but it was the focus of a lot of players. And unlike players then, at least you have the option to continue doing this as you have been.

I'm not saying it's exactly the same. They are equivalent in they both represent new forms of progression. And they are also the same in the sense that there was a contingent of dinosaurs who refused to let go.

spartaxoxo

Desiato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Anyway, the additions of passive bonuses is in no way equivalent to deleting entire skill lines completely.

Like I said, 1.6 was a lot more than CP, but it was the focus of a lot of players. And unlike players then, at least you have the option to continue doing this as you have been.

I'm not saying it's exactly the same. They are equivalent in they both represent new forms of progression. And they are also the same in the sense that there was a contingent of dinosaurs who refused to let go.

You don't really have the option to do as you have been doing because they have changed the skills to suit subclassing. And they plan on continuing to do so. They have reversed changes due to player feedback before and I think it's important (to the game not rl) that players give that feedback.

reazea

Pure classes are neglected and uncompetitive now. But isn't that ZOS' point? ....to sell the latest content.

spartaxoxo

reazea wrote: »

Pure classes are neglected and uncompetitive now. But isn't that ZOS' point? ....to sell the latest content.

Subclassing is base game

reazea

spartaxoxo wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Pure classes are neglected and uncompetitive now. But isn't that ZOS' point? ....to sell the latest content.

Subclassing is base game

Right. It's a new feature to promote sales.

spartaxoxo

reazea wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Pure classes are neglected and uncompetitive now. But isn't that ZOS' point? ....to sell the latest content.

Subclassing is base game

Right. It's a new feature to promote sales.

It doesn't really promote sales. The content pass stuff does. Base game features are ones they're giving out for free to the majority of their playerbase.

ETA

Not everything in a live service game is about selling the lastest content. Some of it is about keep players engaged so you can retain the customers. The hope is that someone who comes in for something you fully expect to take a loss on will turn into a very profitable customer down the line. Or if they already are one. They'll be satisfied with your product and want to spend more time with it.

Player counts and player engagement are also quality metrics they look to boost for that reason.

katanagirl1

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The CP tree does not fundamentally alter gameplay in the manner that subclassing does. Subclassing isn't like different sets or CP becoming meta. Those are passive bonuses. It isn't even like the jabs change, which I also didn't like, because that was a single skill that had significant but ultimately minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things. The rhythm is different but ultimately you're still taking a spear and jabbing enemies multiple times for AOE damage (and possibly healing). This change drastically alters the core gameplay loop for every class that engages in it. I don't think there's any change to the game as drastic as this one, personally.

I think the devs should balance for and expect that some people would want to keep the core gameplay loops that they have enjoyed for the past 10 years.

Interesting point you bring up about CP. Remember how it was redone so high level players wouldn’t be so much more powerful than low level ones? Horizontal progression instead of vertical progression? The only way you can argue subclassing is not more impactful is to assume that everyone will want to subclass, and purposely pick the right skills to subclass.

If what I have been reading here on the forums is correct, the dps increase from subclassing is significantly more than anything that has been quickly nerfed before in terms of individual skills in certain classes.

spartaxoxo

katanagirl1 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The CP tree does not fundamentally alter gameplay in the manner that subclassing does. Subclassing isn't like different sets or CP becoming meta. Those are passive bonuses. It isn't even like the jabs change, which I also didn't like, because that was a single skill that had significant but ultimately minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things. The rhythm is different but ultimately you're still taking a spear and jabbing enemies multiple times for AOE damage (and possibly healing). This change drastically alters the core gameplay loop for every class that engages in it. I don't think there's any change to the game as drastic as this one, personally.

I think the devs should balance for and expect that some people would want to keep the core gameplay loops that they have enjoyed for the past 10 years.

Interesting point you bring up about CP. Remember how it was redone so high level players wouldn’t be so much more powerful than low level ones? Horizontal progression instead of vertical progression? The only way you can argue subclassing is not more impactful is to assume that everyone will want to subclass, and purposely pick the right skills to subclass.

If what I have been reading here on the forums is correct, the dps increase from subclassing is significantly more than anything that has been quickly nerfed before in terms of individual skills in certain classes.

That actually was the devs assumption, iirc. Didn't some streamer point out that ZOS thought everyone would to use it? Or was that just a rumor?

tomofhyrule

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The CP tree does not fundamentally alter gameplay in the manner that subclassing does. Subclassing isn't like different sets or CP becoming meta. Those are passive bonuses. It isn't even like the jabs change, which I also didn't like, because that was a single skill that had significant but ultimately minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things. The rhythm is different but ultimately you're still taking a spear and jabbing enemies multiple times for AOE damage (and possibly healing). This change drastically alters the core gameplay loop for every class that engages in it. I don't think there's any change to the game as drastic as this one, personally.

I think the devs should balance for and expect that some people would want to keep the core gameplay loops that they have enjoyed for the past 10 years.

Interesting point you bring up about CP. Remember how it was redone so high level players wouldn’t be so much more powerful than low level ones? Horizontal progression instead of vertical progression? The only way you can argue subclassing is not more impactful is to assume that everyone will want to subclass, and purposely pick the right skills to subclass.

If what I have been reading here on the forums is correct, the dps increase from subclassing is significantly more than anything that has been quickly nerfed before in terms of individual skills in certain classes.

That actually was the devs assumption, iirc. Didn't some streamer point out that ZOS thought everyone would to use it? Or was that just a rumor?

I know I was talking to some of my StreamTeam friends who tested an early build, and even then their feedback was "it's fun, but it feels like pure class builds are severely underpowered" and they said the devs didn't seem to consider that people would want to stick with pure classes when they were given the ability to subclass. I don't have anything for that beyond anecdotes, but it definitely feels that way.

But in terms of the DPS increase, that always was going to be "your DPS goes up astronomically as long as you pick these specific lines." If you were going to pick lines because of what matched your RP, then there was no guarantee that your DPS would go up (and in fact it was more likely that it'd go down because of individual line nerfs without getting a second line to make up for the loss). I do remember a lot of people who are really pro-Subclassing before U46 dropped were assuming that they'd get a lot more DPS just by existing, and then they found after the patch that that wasn't the case.

I also think that everyone has different people they hang with, so everyone's version of "well I talked to all of my friends and they all agree with me" are all different. From what I see, there are a few different schools of thought on Subclassing in general:

• What are your feelings on the ability of players to Subclass (i.e. do you think it's a good thing for players to pick and choose skills, or is Class Identity important)?
• Do you choose to Subclass your characters (i.e. do you prefer to play a new build or like what you have)?
• Do you feel you're forced to Subclass (i.e. do you feel social or other pressure to build in a way you don't want to because of Subclassing)?
• What are your feelings regarding the balance of Subclassed lines (i.e. is it appropriate that 3x DPS lines do more damage than a pureclass line, or do combinations of Class lines have the proper cost/benefit)?
• Is the power creep provided by Subclassing appropriate (i.e. is it a good thing that the damage ceiling has gone up, or are nerfs called for at the top or are buffs called for at the bottom)?

Most people stick with their friend groups, so we can all say that everyone agrees with our position, but that doesn't mean that it's "the most popular" position at all.

I also know that it changes based on the content people do. In my experience, many endgamers who do high-level trials are all in favor of stacking power via Subclassing and the thought that goes into building for them is mostly "what gives me the best results?" I also have a lot of friends who are at the 'standard Vet' level, but they play more with the "I like the way my character is and I don't feel the need to Subclass them" - the problem there is that they're the ones eating nerf after nerf since they're not Subclassing to counter those nerfs. Then of course you have the people at the lower end who Subclass because they like to pick their themed build with no consideration of high-level content whatsoever.

And of course, there are people who don't fit neatly into any of those categories. I'm one of them - I hate Subclassing with a passion. I built all of my characters around their respective Class, and I don't want to have to change who my character is because someone forces me to. However, I do also do high-level content, so I'm in a state where I have to Subclass to keep up with the group. It really removed a lot of the fun from the game since I can't play what I want anymore. I got every 4-man trifecta and the first 5 trial trifectas on my main before Subclassing was a thing, and I hate that now it's like "wait, you're not taking these exact three lines? You can't play with us!" and the only place I can play the way I want is doing normals or maybe vets with friends... assuming they can handle the DPS loss they also picked up due to the individual line nerfs.
My choices are "don't play the way you want" or "don't play the content you want" now, and it sucks.

It would be nice if this was balanced in such a way where people who chose to Subclass and those who didn't weren't miles apart from each other. It would also be great if people had to make choices for their build - you shouldn't be able to stack 3x DPS lines without ending up as a super glass cannon with negative resistances, while building as a well rounded character should be well rounded all over.

Cooperharley

reazea wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Pure classes are neglected and uncompetitive now. But isn't that ZOS' point? ....to sell the latest content.

Subclassing is base game

Right. It's a new feature to promote sales.

It's a new feature to promote sales . . . of what? The base game? It doesn't promote sales of the content pass lol

katanagirl1

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The CP tree does not fundamentally alter gameplay in the manner that subclassing does. Subclassing isn't like different sets or CP becoming meta. Those are passive bonuses. It isn't even like the jabs change, which I also didn't like, because that was a single skill that had significant but ultimately minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things. The rhythm is different but ultimately you're still taking a spear and jabbing enemies multiple times for AOE damage (and possibly healing). This change drastically alters the core gameplay loop for every class that engages in it. I don't think there's any change to the game as drastic as this one, personally.

I think the devs should balance for and expect that some people would want to keep the core gameplay loops that they have enjoyed for the past 10 years.

Interesting point you bring up about CP. Remember how it was redone so high level players wouldn’t be so much more powerful than low level ones? Horizontal progression instead of vertical progression? The only way you can argue subclassing is not more impactful is to assume that everyone will want to subclass, and purposely pick the right skills to subclass.

If what I have been reading here on the forums is correct, the dps increase from subclassing is significantly more than anything that has been quickly nerfed before in terms of individual skills in certain classes.

That actually was the devs assumption, iirc. Didn't some streamer point out that ZOS thought everyone would to use it? Or was that just a rumor?

That’s what I heard here. I don’t watch streamers. I’d rather play the game myself.

Ingenon

I think that subclassing is required now for group play. If you want to do your part in contributing to the group success. And I think for solo you can play what you want. Also, I don't expect ZOS to roll back subclassing. It is what it is.

Wildberryjack

They should not be nerfing any of the skills. It's making pure classes worthless and that's not right. I have a handful I like the way they are but if I don't subclass them now I'm gimped. That's crap.