Ult Gen Discussion

Kickimanjaro · July 8

Over time, Ultimate has become more and more accessible to players, greatly increasing the frequency in which these combat altering abilities can be activated. This has allowed for strategies that hyper focus on the generation of this resource to amass and creep up over time, creating cases where some Ultimates can be activated incredibly quickly. We're going through many sources of Ultimate and converting effects over to the Major and Minor system so they still offer powerful bonuses, but with a much more controlled ceiling. We've started with class passives in efforts to make it harder to stack their effects with subclassing in mind, while also trying to mitigate the need to gain this effect from things like scribed abilities or consumables.

Source: U47 Natch Potes dev comment in the Combat & Gameplay section

Okay, but it was fun!

We had to put together entire builds just to focus on a single ability.

I built several of these focusing on providing Barrier to my group in PvP and it felt great. It was always a tradeoff between granting a big shield frequently and literally anything else. Couldn't burst heal with it. HoTs weren't that powerful. Couldn't provide many other group buffs or utility outside of the massive shields every 20-30s. And I certainly couldn't kill anything!

Some things were definitely a bit too strong, but those did eventually get patched (looking at you, corrosive leaps powered by cryptcannon).

This new direction for ult gen is taking all the flavor out of our kit and I don't like it. Let us keep some spice, please.

What about y'all?

First, do you agree that it was a problem that hyper-specific builds could crank out ultimate?
If so, do you agree with this approach to attempt to mitigate such an issue?

Thanks

coop500 · July 8

No I think this standardizing is *** and ruins a lot of build flavor and fun.

MincMincMinc · July 8

One design concept being lost here is not just the flavor aspect, but how the math is hard to do. If everything gets whittled down into an easy 1+1 calculation people will just flock to the most efficient path.

There is power in madness.

Also for something like catalyst you are losing cool playstyle skillful gameplay with timing potions such that you can get the burst of ult if needed. At this point it boils down to slot this skill line and get this exact Ult/minute

alpha_synuclein · July 8

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

What about y'all?
First, do you agree that it was a problem that hyper-specific builds could crank out ultimate?
If so, do you agree with this approach to attempt to mitigate such an issue?
Thanks

No.
And hell no.
This is ridiculous...

Reginald_leBlem · July 8

Hate it. Maximum hate.

I really like building for ultimate, and as has been said-- That's all it's good for.

These are horrible, flat changes that ruin an entire playstyle.

Kartalin · July 8

In our 6-8 person pvp group we have a a guy running cryptcannon, drake’s rush, Arkasis (with potion cooldown on jewelry and siphoning for potion passive), and a banner with minor heroism within range. These types of builds is what ZOS is trying to address

Reginald_leBlem · July 8

Maybe I should have seen it coming when they nerfed pearls but

Treeshka · July 8

This is the ultimate generation from the trifecta run in the Ossein Cage last boss of myself. You can see how much ultimate i have generated via Catalyst passive. It says 486 which means i have used 16 potions and this passive effected by Decisive trait 6 times out 16 times.

Secondly the Replenishing Barrier 343 ultimate generation. I did not check how many broken wards it is due to Decisive trait affecting the generation but it helps. Because game considers each broken ward as a separate ultimate generation tick.

Since the amount of ultimate generation ticks have been reduced significantly. No more extra ticks via Catalyst. No more extra ultimate generation per ward broken. Decisive trait also gets a hit. So maybe an adjustment here is needed but this is my general feedback of the situation.

I think they should consider reverting the nerf to the Pillager and Pearls.

YandereGirlfriend · July 8

I think that most players would rate using their ultimates as the most fun actual component of gameplay. So in that sense, this change is definitely directed toward nerfing what most players find fun about the game.

For Barrier in particular... I think this is 100% caused by a certain YouTube video that made the rounds in the early days of the patch. Most here probably know what I'm talking about. Also for Barrier, this would feel less bad if the other morph was actually worth using. The HOT from the healing morph is like offensively weak given that it is sourced from an ultimate. The HOT needs to be doubled at least in order to provide a compelling alternative.

Finally... Corpse Consumption should provide Major Heroism given its super long cooldown is more akin to Catalyst as well as its historical potency (prior to it being nerfed in subclassing). It is also significantly more difficult to proc than competing class ult-gen options.

CaptainRele · July 8

They went way too far with the pearls and pillagers nerfs, and now adding this on top of everything else is just mind boggling. Even in a world where spamming barriers every 12 seconds was possible, it serves no purpose. So much that kills people in pve is oblivion damage and you're doing nothing else besides genning ult. In real actual content, healers have other stuff to do besides sit in the back and spam ult gen.
This feels like a weird punishment across the board that is theoretically aimed at healers but doesn't want to appear that way, so it hits everyone. It takes away a big reason to use heroism potions if your build can keep heroism up all the time (messing with the gold market), or it removes class flavor if you decide to use heroism pots anyway. Look if ulti gen was a problem because of subclassing, then nerf siphoning. If it was a problem before subclassing and somehow only was realized a month ago, then tackle it bit by bit. They already nerfed it by half last patch - doing all this is just insult to injury.

madmufffin · July 8

I have been running a fun ulti gen build to solo carry 50% uptime on major berserk as a healer in my tri core and this destroys that entirely. It doesn't reward ingenuitey in builds or good gameplay. It just makes everything more flavorless and boring.

Reginald_leBlem · July 8

madmufffin wrote: »

I have been running a fun ulti gen build to solo carry 50% uptime on major berserk as a healer in my tri core and this destroys that entirely. It doesn't reward ingenuitey in builds or good gameplay. It just makes everything more flavorless and boring.

Right??? Ffs just let us have fun

colossalvoids · July 8

Just another point on the graph pointing downwards for both fun and positive complexity here, same as every other patch basically.

Kickimanjaro · July 9

Here's another thought, if they dreamed up this nerf with PvP in mind then why not give players a good way to apply Major/Minor Timidity to others and forego all this nonsense?

That way you could still have people build highly specific ult-gen builds, but you could counter them with a similarly highly specific Timidity build. Or just throw it into your normal kit, I could imagine people combining this with some Defile as well for a brutal debuff build.

As is, there's only like two sources of Minor Timidity in the game (Baron Thirsk and Monomyth) and only one of those can be applied to other players. [Edit: oop, ty Erickson9610, poisons can also inflict Minor Timidity]

If they went this way, and depending on how long the applied duration of Timidity was, it might encourage groups to re-consider running Purge. This would then go further to providing counters to coordinated groups by making Plaguebreak relevant against them again instead of only benefiting them as it does now. Or maybe that's too much wishful thinking, I don't know, it doesn't seem like ZOS is actually interested in adding counterplay, simply in removing the coordinated play in the first place (see nerf to Azureblight as evidence)...

Tommy_The_Gun · July 9

I will say what I have already said in other thread.

With subclassing, each class skill tree should offer "something". There should not be clear winners or clear losers. Instead of picking what is best, players should rather ask themselves what to pick & where to make sacrifices. Should I pick this class skill tree ? Maybe... but then I am losing this and that etc.

Right now it seems it is the opposite. ZOS is focusing on a few specific class skill trees EACH UPDATE and others are either left in the dust underperforming or a getting severely nerfed to make the "choice" of the "flavour of the month" easier.

Catalyst passive nerf for instance. With subclassing, Siphoning was a tempting choice. U get something unique - out of combat ulti gen. Without it, I am 100% sure that no one will actually pick this for sublassing and also many NB will actually switch Siphoning skill tree for something else - something that is clearly better.

And this is the problem. "Clearly better". We should rather have "clearly unique" and not "clearly better".

Also... spreadsheets don't play video games. Players do. Don't balance the game for the holy spreadsheet and law & order cuz "some one had an idea".

Balance the game for the players - cuz they are the ones who play your game. If they don't have fun, they won't play... it is not a rocket science...

YandereGirlfriend · July 9

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

Here's another thought, if they dreamed up this nerf with PvP in mind then why not give players a good way to apply Major/Minor Timidity to others and forego all this nonsense?

That way you could still have people build highly specific ult-gen builds, but you could counter them with a similarly highly specific Timidity build. Or just throw it into your normal kit, I could imagine people combining this with some Defile as well for a brutal debuff build.

As is, there's only like two sources of Minor Timidity in the game (Baron Thirsk and Monomyth) and only one of those can be applied to other players.

If they went this way, and depending on how long the applied duration of Timidity was, it might encourage groups to re-consider running Purge. This would then go further to providing counters to coordinated groups by making Plaguebreak relevant against them again instead of only benefiting them as it does now. Or maybe that's too much wishful thinking, I don't know, it doesn't seem like ZOS is actually interested in adding counterplay, simply in removing the coordinated play in the first place (see nerf to Azureblight as evidence)...

They didn't do it for PvP. This cannot be said enough times.

This nerf was directly attributable to panic/hype that made the rounds early in U46 about spamming Barriers in trials.

tomofhyrule · July 9

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

Here's another thought, if they dreamed up this nerf with PvP in mind then why not give players a good way to apply Major/Minor Timidity to others and forego all this nonsense?

That way you could still have people build highly specific ult-gen builds, but you could counter them with a similarly highly specific Timidity build. Or just throw it into your normal kit, I could imagine people combining this with some Defile as well for a brutal debuff build.

As is, there's only like two sources of Minor Timidity in the game (Baron Thirsk and Monomyth) and only one of those can be applied to other players.

If they went this way, and depending on how long the applied duration of Timidity was, it might encourage groups to re-consider running Purge. This would then go further to providing counters to coordinated groups by making Plaguebreak relevant against them again instead of only benefiting them as it does now. Or maybe that's too much wishful thinking, I don't know, it doesn't seem like ZOS is actually interested in adding counterplay, simply in removing the coordinated play in the first place (see nerf to Azureblight as evidence)...

Honestly, I'd love to see some sources of Timidity in the game (hey ZOS, new buffs on a new Class?). It's not something most people in PvP experience, and that could really make things interesting.

On topic though, I'm tired of all of this nerfing to ult gen - especially since as a DK that is essentially our only source of sustain - when it seems the real problem is people using Subclassing to stack a bunch of ult gen passive bonuses. I know a lot of people would rather they modify the passives for the classes so there was a reason to pureclass again, something like not allowing you to gain the full benefit of the passives if you're only taking them as subclasses or the like.

Erickson9610 · July 10

Poisons can inflict Minor Timidity on your target.

p00tx · July 10

I would be fine with these changes if they provided support with an alternative combat style to build for, or even just provided new gearing options that made things fun for the role again. They didn't though, and we're back to just the same old boring slog of filling HP bars and keeping up minor berserk. It's pretty uninteresting and underwhelming. The minds that came up with the ulti meta (which we all really enjoyed) are more than capable of coming up with something new.