Vengeance test 3, more diversity? How about more clarity?

MincMincMinc · July 8

Well it looks like we are one step closer to getting gear and build choices back in vengeance. It only appears we get the active skill, but does this mean we are getting light/med/heavy gear? Does this mean the following tests will have passives soon? At least it is one more step towards build choice in vengeance. Nice that sorc can get a nuke ult with dawnbreaker.

I sure hope they plan on addressing the data for test 2. I know they had to keep some things churning before results, but based on how the test performed I'd hope test 4 will involve more mechanical testing with Aoe caps, Cross healing outside of group, and Overtime hot/dot/buff stacking from different players.

Erickson9610 · July 8

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Does this mean the following tests will have passives soon?

I honestly hope Vengeance never gets passive abilities. Everything should require you to use your Active Abilities; there shouldn't be any bonuses for having anything slotted.

colossalvoids · July 8

Honestly expect it to be just tests yet. Sure there's enough asks for the mode to stay or be considered in any capacity but any balancing or mechanical additions seems unlikely if that's still a testing grounds and not a raw demo of what's their new vision is.

Even considering if veng II is a successful implementation of new skill lines when resto tanked performance closer to live state in densely packed environments.

MincMincMinc · July 8

Erickson9610 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Does this mean the following tests will have passives soon?

I honestly hope Vengeance never gets passive abilities. Everything should require you to use your Active Abilities; there shouldn't be any bonuses for having anything slotted.

Nah I think the passives were fine for years.

We just started having more of a problem with skills doing their normal thing + a morph + a buff + a cc + etc...... Which now even zos is realizing people only have half the skills on their bars because they are strong passives.

MincMincMinc · July 8

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly expect it to be just tests yet. Sure there's enough asks for the mode to stay or be considered in any capacity but any balancing or mechanical additions seems unlikely if that's still a testing grounds and not a raw demo of what's their new vision is.

Even considering if veng II is a successful implementation of new skill lines when resto tanked performance closer to live state in densely packed environments.

I may be misreading your statement so correct me if I'm just rehashing what you mean. The addition of resto tanking performance directly points towards game mechanic issues of Aoe caps, Crosshealing outside of group, and Over time effects stacking.

The main benefit to vengeance was that PvE and PvP can now be separate. So mechanics like all effects can't stack would drastically cut down on so many issues plaguing pvp since the PvE raid groups were crying about overlapping BiS effects causing inefficiencies.

colossalvoids · July 8

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly expect it to be just tests yet. Sure there's enough asks for the mode to stay or be considered in any capacity but any balancing or mechanical additions seems unlikely if that's still a testing grounds and not a raw demo of what's their new vision is.

Even considering if veng II is a successful implementation of new skill lines when resto tanked performance closer to live state in densely packed environments.

I may be misreading your statement so correct me if I'm just rehashing what you mean. The addition of resto tanking performance directly points towards game mechanic issues of Aoe caps, Crosshealing outside of group, and Over time effects stacking.
The main benefit to vengeance was that PvE and PvP can now be separate. So mechanics like all effects can't stack would drastically cut down on so many issues plaguing pvp since the PvE raid groups were crying about overlapping BiS effects causing inefficiencies.

That's my problem not being an english speaker most probably, ahem.

Yes, that's the issue with addition of more lines currently - it doesn't take into account already identified problems we had for years upon years, but scaling them back in hopes that's enough. We had no cross healing test, it already almost solved stuck in combat issues and at least some client side lag but apparently showed devs no real server frame gains if I remember correctly their conclusion.

Agree on separation generally, that's probably one thing I should've included in my feedback piece in the corresponding thread as this simple thing can drastically change how they can solve issues without making the game worse for the opposite side of the server figuratively speaking. Personally this turned PvP upside down for me around five years ago when last people I've played with there effectively quit, caused by streak of unfortunate design decisions which never really stopped since.

MincMincMinc · July 8

colossalvoids wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly expect it to be just tests yet. Sure there's enough asks for the mode to stay or be considered in any capacity but any balancing or mechanical additions seems unlikely if that's still a testing grounds and not a raw demo of what's their new vision is.

Even considering if veng II is a successful implementation of new skill lines when resto tanked performance closer to live state in densely packed environments.

I may be misreading your statement so correct me if I'm just rehashing what you mean. The addition of resto tanking performance directly points towards game mechanic issues of Aoe caps, Crosshealing outside of group, and Over time effects stacking.
The main benefit to vengeance was that PvE and PvP can now be separate. So mechanics like all effects can't stack would drastically cut down on so many issues plaguing pvp since the PvE raid groups were crying about overlapping BiS effects causing inefficiencies.

That's my problem not being an english speaker most probably, ahem.

Yes, that's the issue with addition of more lines currently - it doesn't take into account already identified problems we had for years upon years, but scaling them back in hopes that's enough. We had no cross healing test, it already almost solved stuck in combat issues and at least some client side lag but apparently showed devs no real server frame gains if I remember correctly their conclusion.

Agree on separation generally, that's probably one thing I should've included in my feedback piece in the corresponding thread as this simple thing can drastically change how they can solve issues without making the game worse for the opposite side of the server figuratively speaking. Personally this turned PvP upside down for me around five years ago when last people I've played with there effectively quit, caused by streak of unfortunate design decisions which never really stopped since.

No worries, I was guessing there was some translation loss.

With vengeance 3 at least someone is leading the team in a way that work is not grinding to a halt. It seems someone is actually coordinating to keep anything that can be worked on, worked on. Be curious how they address the vengeance 2 findings about the group aoe heals, crosshealing outside group, and over time effect stacking.

I can only dream that they make over time effects nolonger stack in pvp again. It would touch on so many issues.

Winning purely by numbers being soft capped. More chances for newer players to break away and solo/smallman
BiS morphs being chosen wouldn't stack so we would see things like mutagen and rapid regen used.
meta proc sets like sloads wouldn't be an issue

colossalvoids · July 8

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly expect it to be just tests yet. Sure there's enough asks for the mode to stay or be considered in any capacity but any balancing or mechanical additions seems unlikely if that's still a testing grounds and not a raw demo of what's their new vision is.

Even considering if veng II is a successful implementation of new skill lines when resto tanked performance closer to live state in densely packed environments.

I may be misreading your statement so correct me if I'm just rehashing what you mean. The addition of resto tanking performance directly points towards game mechanic issues of Aoe caps, Crosshealing outside of group, and Over time effects stacking.
The main benefit to vengeance was that PvE and PvP can now be separate. So mechanics like all effects can't stack would drastically cut down on so many issues plaguing pvp since the PvE raid groups were crying about overlapping BiS effects causing inefficiencies.

That's my problem not being an english speaker most probably, ahem.

Yes, that's the issue with addition of more lines currently - it doesn't take into account already identified problems we had for years upon years, but scaling them back in hopes that's enough. We had no cross healing test, it already almost solved stuck in combat issues and at least some client side lag but apparently showed devs no real server frame gains if I remember correctly their conclusion.

Agree on separation generally, that's probably one thing I should've included in my feedback piece in the corresponding thread as this simple thing can drastically change how they can solve issues without making the game worse for the opposite side of the server figuratively speaking. Personally this turned PvP upside down for me around five years ago when last people I've played with there effectively quit, caused by streak of unfortunate design decisions which never really stopped since.

No worries, I was guessing there was some translation loss.

With vengeance 3 at least someone is leading the team in a way that work is not grinding to a halt. It seems someone is actually coordinating to keep anything that can be worked on, worked on. Be curious how they address the vengeance 2 findings about the group aoe heals, crosshealing outside group, and over time effect stacking.

I can only dream that they make over time effects nolonger stack in pvp again. It would touch on so many issues.
Winning purely by numbers being soft capped. More chances for newer players to break away and solo/smallman

BiS morphs being chosen wouldn't stack so we would see things like mutagen and rapid regen used.

meta proc sets like sloads wouldn't be an issue

Wonder how many tests would it take before any of the balancing acts can take it's place. And what it takes translating it to live, which is most puzzling if a lot of people are against rebuilding from the ground up and are firm on scalpel changes like just trimming some sets and outliers with abilities.

That's even if they took our observations (correlation with lag and amount of cross healing / similar hots going) to heart as their spreadsheets might show them a different picture to what we observed in a sense, as we also take into account player behaviour which isn't much data driven.

reazea · July 8

Oh good grief! Another disaster and waste of time on our dime.

Enough already. We're not lab rats, we're paying customers.

ZOS, please try limiting heal and shield stacking before making us endure the trash vengeance again. Please.

MincMincMinc · July 8

colossalvoids wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly expect it to be just tests yet. Sure there's enough asks for the mode to stay or be considered in any capacity but any balancing or mechanical additions seems unlikely if that's still a testing grounds and not a raw demo of what's their new vision is.

Even considering if veng II is a successful implementation of new skill lines when resto tanked performance closer to live state in densely packed environments.

I may be misreading your statement so correct me if I'm just rehashing what you mean. The addition of resto tanking performance directly points towards game mechanic issues of Aoe caps, Crosshealing outside of group, and Over time effects stacking.
The main benefit to vengeance was that PvE and PvP can now be separate. So mechanics like all effects can't stack would drastically cut down on so many issues plaguing pvp since the PvE raid groups were crying about overlapping BiS effects causing inefficiencies.

That's my problem not being an english speaker most probably, ahem.

Yes, that's the issue with addition of more lines currently - it doesn't take into account already identified problems we had for years upon years, but scaling them back in hopes that's enough. We had no cross healing test, it already almost solved stuck in combat issues and at least some client side lag but apparently showed devs no real server frame gains if I remember correctly their conclusion.

Agree on separation generally, that's probably one thing I should've included in my feedback piece in the corresponding thread as this simple thing can drastically change how they can solve issues without making the game worse for the opposite side of the server figuratively speaking. Personally this turned PvP upside down for me around five years ago when last people I've played with there effectively quit, caused by streak of unfortunate design decisions which never really stopped since.

No worries, I was guessing there was some translation loss.

With vengeance 3 at least someone is leading the team in a way that work is not grinding to a halt. It seems someone is actually coordinating to keep anything that can be worked on, worked on. Be curious how they address the vengeance 2 findings about the group aoe heals, crosshealing outside group, and over time effect stacking.

I can only dream that they make over time effects nolonger stack in pvp again. It would touch on so many issues.
Winning purely by numbers being soft capped. More chances for newer players to break away and solo/smallman

BiS morphs being chosen wouldn't stack so we would see things like mutagen and rapid regen used.

meta proc sets like sloads wouldn't be an issue

Wonder how many tests would it take before any of the balancing acts can take it's place. And what it takes translating it to live, which is most puzzling if a lot of people are against rebuilding from the ground up and are firm on scalpel changes like just trimming some sets and outliers with abilities.

That's even if they took our observations (correlation with lag and amount of cross healing / similar hots going) to heart as their spreadsheets might show them a different picture to what we observed in a sense, as we also take into account player behaviour which isn't much data driven.

Just speculation, but it partly sounds like they want to bring in all of the systems at a certain point. I am surprised they bothered with the guild skill lines and didnt just move to passives. I suppose they wanted to try the achievement account updates first. Maybe too many people are getting ap and ranking up lol? Or maelstrom leaderboard updates suspected again?

From an engineering standpoint the biggest concern is that it isnt one variable that is the issue, but certain conditions of various variables causing the issue. Once it gets so intertwined we know its hopeless. The way they are conducting tests is trying to gauge how each independent variable affects performance. So chances are that if there are no big clear answers, the issue becomes near impossible to solve.

YandereGirlfriend · July 8

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly expect it to be just tests yet. Sure there's enough asks for the mode to stay or be considered in any capacity but any balancing or mechanical additions seems unlikely if that's still a testing grounds and not a raw demo of what's their new vision is.

Even considering if veng II is a successful implementation of new skill lines when resto tanked performance closer to live state in densely packed environments.

I may be misreading your statement so correct me if I'm just rehashing what you mean. The addition of resto tanking performance directly points towards game mechanic issues of Aoe caps, Crosshealing outside of group, and Over time effects stacking.
The main benefit to vengeance was that PvE and PvP can now be separate. So mechanics like all effects can't stack would drastically cut down on so many issues plaguing pvp since the PvE raid groups were crying about overlapping BiS effects causing inefficiencies.

That's my problem not being an english speaker most probably, ahem.

Yes, that's the issue with addition of more lines currently - it doesn't take into account already identified problems we had for years upon years, but scaling them back in hopes that's enough. We had no cross healing test, it already almost solved stuck in combat issues and at least some client side lag but apparently showed devs no real server frame gains if I remember correctly their conclusion.

Agree on separation generally, that's probably one thing I should've included in my feedback piece in the corresponding thread as this simple thing can drastically change how they can solve issues without making the game worse for the opposite side of the server figuratively speaking. Personally this turned PvP upside down for me around five years ago when last people I've played with there effectively quit, caused by streak of unfortunate design decisions which never really stopped since.

No worries, I was guessing there was some translation loss.

With vengeance 3 at least someone is leading the team in a way that work is not grinding to a halt. It seems someone is actually coordinating to keep anything that can be worked on, worked on. Be curious how they address the vengeance 2 findings about the group aoe heals, crosshealing outside group, and over time effect stacking.

I can only dream that they make over time effects nolonger stack in pvp again. It would touch on so many issues.
Winning purely by numbers being soft capped. More chances for newer players to break away and solo/smallman

BiS morphs being chosen wouldn't stack so we would see things like mutagen and rapid regen used.

meta proc sets like sloads wouldn't be an issue

It's an implementation detail but Mutagen is a pretty trash skill in the year 2025.

Particularly that it does not prioritize the caster and so others in the (enormous) vicinity can swoop your heal without you being able to do anything about it. That also affects Wield Soul and is equally as annoying.

It would have to be changed to function like Green Vigor that only hits the caster.