Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't start playing until 2017, so I don't know what the very first achievement panes looked like. Something I can think of in base game that isn't tracked, but is the kind of thing that is now tracked, are those arguments you come across in Grahtwood, between Bosmer and Khajiit, or Bosmer and Altmer. It's one of those situations where you step in to resolve the argument and I think it's meant to be representative of the culture clashes that can crop up in the Dominion. And the various Bosmer leading tours throughout Grahtwood, too. (I've actually walked along on each of those tours, listening in; it was fun). Anyway, as far as I know there's no achievement for those encounters, but in newer content, that type of thing is an achievement.

I mean, I do see how it would be practical to have some kind of checklist so one knows whether one has missed something, but on the other hand I'd rather see something like that not related to achievements - and also, it's not complete either, the way it is right now.

One thing I've been wondering about for years is why there is no simple quest list per zone anywhere in the game menu. I know there's that "zone completion" thing on the map menu, but that is not reliable. I already had cases where it showed 100% completion but I still ran into a few side quests somewhere along the road. All quests that are not related to a specific location (and therefore mark the location als completed after being finished) just don't show up anywhere - because the map only counts the completion of places, not of individual quests. There's a mod/addon that does it; but not only does it rely on the quest lists on UESP and is inaccurate for some weeks after every release because of that, because it takes a while for people to update it, I just think that questing is such an essential and central part of the game, that it's just strange not to have all quests trackable anywhere, especially if there's a whole "zone completion" menu. From my point of view, a zone that still has unfinished/undiscovered quests is not actually completed.

I think the closest they ever got to that was the "complete X quests" in the zone achievements, but that was just a number, and it wasn't even for the total--just an amount close to it. There have been quests over the years I've missed and discover much later, after I thought I had completed the zone. Even Cadwell's almanac doesn't list all the quests, and even then it's just a descriptive hint rather than the actual quest name since it's just meant as a general guide. Considering the amount of things that do get tracked and do have achievements associated with them, it is kind of surprising there's no quest list. It would be a handy tool for completionists and also just a good reference.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I prefer the quotes from in-world people, too. I think the mage robe comment would have landed better if it did have a specific (fictional) person advocating. Most of the costumes do--they sound like either the designer of the costume talking it up, or some socialite hyping it.

Yes, indeed that would have made it so much better. Sometimes it's just tiny aspects that make a difference (Makes me wonder whether the reason for not doing that anymore might be that they might believe people don't really care for these small things anyway?). Same goes for the npcs in Solstice often not having any random dialogue anymore, which might also just be a minor thing, but has a big impact on atmosphere and immersion; but we already discussed that.

It's hard to say why they change things. It could be they want to mix it up, try something new. It could be time or budget constraints. Or it could be they feel it doesn't matter much and people hardly pay attention/care anyway. However, I would think they'd know that there's always someone in their player base that's paying attention to and cares about every change.

Edit to add: speaking of good flavor text, the description on the daily log-in reward for the ghostly dog is an example of a really good version of it. So they haven't abandoned it entirely.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Pretty sure the Great Mage could track a shady peddler. At least I hope so.

Maybe he's too busy getting kidnapped. Or running after Mannimarco (no matter whether it's the poodle or the real one). Or enjoying the fun of getting his magicka drained by some daedric machine. Or actually working as the head of his book club for once.

He does seem to be a fairly absent (figuratively) guild leader even in the times he's not literally absent.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think I have the Luminous Indrik and it works well for one of my characters. I'll have to check and see if that's the one, though. I don't have many of the Indriks. (Not being a collector saves me a lot of hassle in this game.)

I think I have all of them meanwhile. As least I'm at the point now that I sometimes have too many spare tickets left during an event and can't waste them on random indriks anymore. Most of which I will probably never use anyway. The Luminous works well for an Altmer character of mine, and I have a Dunmer who likes the black one, and a Bosmer who uses the naturally colored version (and matching armor). I think I also used a white one for a while.

Now, after 9 years, I have so many mounts just from events and rewards of all kind, that I really don't have enough time to use them for an appropriate amount of time anyway. I think the only ones I ever bought (well, except for those what were part of a chapter purchase - I never ever used the weird Telvanni cookie horse, by the way) were the Dwemer car (years ago) and the Vvardvark mount. Both of which I use for my main right now.

I have way too many mounts also. I've bought more than I should, probably, but I have a weakness for the cat and wolf mounts (the more or less regular looking ones, not the ones on fire or covered in fungus or moss). Often the mounts that come with the chapter are a thing I look at and think, "Yeah, I'm never going to ride that." But they're in my collection all the same.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Eh, if that's what the poodle is, I won't take care of it. Pretty sure it could take care of itself anyway.

It's a bit like the Bosmer: It looks harmless at first, but,... anyway.

I do think though that a daedra corrupting a scholar in a poodle-ish disguise would be something that sounds plausible for Nirn.

Which daedra do you think it would be? One of the princes, or a demi-prince, or just some powerful common daedra? Clavicus Vile might take it as encroaching on his territory if one of the other princes started showing up in poodle form. I read in game somewhere a lore book that posited the idea that Barbas is actually an aspect of Clavicus Vile, not a separate entity. I think I prefer to think of them as separate entities; there's something about a daedric prince having a faithful hound that is more interesting to me than if they're just two parts of a whole. Especially considering their relationship in full--it can get kind of fractious.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think the closest they ever got to that was the "complete X quests" in the zone achievements, but that was just a number, and it wasn't even for the total--just an amount close to it. There have been quests over the years I've missed and discover much later, after I thought I had completed the zone. Even Cadwell's almanac doesn't list all the quests, and even then it's just a descriptive hint rather than the actual quest name since it's just meant as a general guide. Considering the amount of things that do get tracked and do have achievements associated with them, it is kind of surprising there's no quest list. It would be a handy tool for completionists and also just a good reference.

Is there a general suggestion thread somewhere so we could add that there?

I don't think there is. From time to time people create specific suggestion threads, but I don't think I've ever seen an ongoing one.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's hard to say why they change things. It could be they want to mix it up, try something new. It could be time or budget constraints. Or it could be they feel it doesn't matter much and people hardly pay attention/care anyway. However, I would think they'd know that there's always someone in their player base that's paying attention to and cares about every change.

What ever the reason was, I can say I did find it disappointing because for me, even just some random greeting added to the atmosphere. Having people say nothing at all just feels "unrealistic" somehow? It would work if you're somewhere where there's actually a language barrier, so people might not understand what you want from them, but that isn't the case here - and probably nowhere in Tamriel, as the world has already been established to us as a place where somehow even in remote villages everyone speaks Cyrodiilic as a common language; so changing that all of a sudden, after so many years, would also feel like there's something off. I think that's also the main problem here: If it hadn't been different before, if we hadn't gotten at least some greeting or even just some murmuring from every single npc in the game for the last 10 years, it wouldnt be so striking if there's suddenly no reaction at all.

Yeah, the general silence in Sunport is a contrast to other cities. The Sunport npcs don't even have any of those lines like npcs in other cities have, like if you walk too close, they say, "I'm in the middle of something here," like you were interrupting them. These aren't npcs that can be otherwise interacted with--you can't click on them to have a conversation--but the fact that they say something in proximity is nice. I could understand the isolation of Solstice making so random npcs wouldn't have heard of our exploits and comment on them. No one yapping about the Coral Heart or saving Ayrenn or interfering with the justice system in Phaer. But the fact that none of them even say stock lines like, "I need a break." or "I don't seem to be making any progress." just makes the place feel more empty than it is.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Edit to add: speaking of good flavor text, the description on the daily log-in reward for the ghostly dog is an example of a really good version of it. So they haven't abandoned it entirely.

Yes, I really like that one! Not only a nice idea in general, but I also like that that little snippet of text tells so much about the character the quote is from, and also that it's no clichéd depiction.

Yeah, they really communicated quite a story with just a few lines there, didn't they? Really well done!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He does seem to be a fairly absent (figuratively) guild leader even in the times he's not literally absent.

It's just a book club. It's not like they're doing much that needs leadership anyway.

Lol...sounds like your opinion of the Mages guild matches Vanny's opinion of the fighters guild. When he appoints Azah as interim leader (sorry, suggests it) he says something like, "No guild can operate without a leader, not even the fighters guild." I laughed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Often the mounts that come with the chapter are a thing I look at and think, "Yeah, I'm never going to ride that." But they're in my collection all the same.

I know that from the chapter purchase mounts, I use the nix ox from time to time, but other than that... Was there a camel for Thieves Guild back then? I know I had a camel I used in zones with a desert climate sometimes, but not sure where that came from. Could also have been a login reward or so. Those were often a bit more spectacular just after they had implemented them to the game. I mean, it's not bad of course when we get a mount or pet or something like that now, but I can remember months where we would get a whole bunch of crown crates, for example.

I don't know about camels. I don't think I have one. But maybe I do. I forget about half the mounts I have. I do remember when log in rewards were first implemented, and they did often feature crates. I know people complain about lackluster log in rewards, and I understand if you've been here awhile they aren't that exciting, but for a new player to get a mount or pet just for logging in, that's pretty nice.

Oh, I did check my indrik mounts. I have two: luminous and nascent. I gave up really quickly on the indrik grind.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Which daedra do you think it would be? One of the princes, or a demi-prince, or just some powerful common daedra?

A demi-prince. Actually, that's generally a topic they could explore more.

Or let it really be some, I don't know, disguised minion of Mannimarco, trying to manipulate Vanny

Do we come across many demi-princes in game? The only one I can think of right away if Faut-nui Hen. Oh, I know I mangled that name, but the guy for the Maelstrom arena, with his Barons that Move Like. He's an interesting character.

Also, could a minion of Mannimarco really pull off a poodle transformation? They don't seem like the brightest and best, is all I'm saying.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Clavicus Vile might take it as encroaching on his territory if one of the other princes started showing up in poodle form.

Nah, there's a huge difference between a grey wolfhound doing whatever Barbas does, and a black poodle corrupting people!

From all I've been able to discern, Barbas usually messes things up and has to spend most of his time trying to get back in his master's good graces.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I read in game somewhere a lore book that posited the idea that Barbas is actually an aspect of Clavicus Vile, not a separate entity. I think I prefer to think of them as separate entities; there's something about a daedric prince having a faithful hound that is more interesting to me than if they're just two parts of a whole. Especially considering their relationship in full--it can get kind of fractious.

Barbas could have also been established as some kind of inferior demi-prince, if they wanted that. As for being an aspect of Clavicus, something subconscious he doesn't even really know about himself,... That leads to the question how a Daedric Prince's consciousness even works, and to many other related questions, actually. But I'm not sure whether we'll ever get answers on that.

Probably not. The lore book seemed to be one of those "fringe theory" books that crop up from time to time, with the author spending a lot of time saying they know how most people view it, but they have figured out the truth.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, the general silence in Sunport is a contrast to other cities. The Sunport npcs don't even have any of those lines like npcs in other cities have, like if you walk too close, they say, "I'm in the middle of something here," like you were interrupting them.

Well, there's a very talkative one at the harbour outside of town, randomly blabbering about his plans to murder people. Which isn't quite believable either, is it? Anyway, he went the way of all flesh. I had to, right?

You've mentioned this guy before, and I've tried to find him, but I never come across any murder blabbering from anyone. I might assume that's because you've taken care of the situation, but different servers, so...maybe others share your feelings for this fool. And yes, you did what you had to do.

Syldras wrote: »

Indeed. I honestly don't get why they didn't add those random lines to the Solstice npcs? I mean, it's always the same sound files anyway, doesn't matter if they add it to a few characters more. It's not like it's a big server space issue or so. I'm honestly still not even sure whether it's supposed to be like that or whether it's a bug?

I hadn't considered that it might be a bug. In a way, I hope it is, because then it's not intentional. I guess it could be done on purpose to try to show their disinterest in the people of the mainland. But, really, it just makes it seem like the city if full of people who have taken a vow of silence. It's kind of unnerving.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, they really communicated quite a story with just a few lines there, didn't they? Really well done!

Not only a short story, but a serious and emotional one too.

True. I felt for that dog and his person more than I did for most of the Solstice npcs. But I do like animals better than people, so I guess that tracks.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol...sounds like your opinion of the Mages guild matches Vanny's opinion of the fighters guild. When he appoints Azah as interim leader (sorry, suggests it) he says something like, "No guild can operate without a leader, not even the fighters guild." I laughed.

I find both of them quite useless I mean, honestly: What use would they have for Great House Telvanni? We can defend ourselves very well.

I believe the statement goes: House Telvanni stands alone. Along with some stuff about having been around far longer than any pointless alliances. But yes, I'm well aware your house needs nothing from anyone, ever.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Do we come across many demi-princes in game? The only one I can think of right away if Faut-nui Hen. Oh, I know I mangled that name, but the guy for the Maelstrom arena, with his Barons that Move Like. He's an interesting character.

The cute demon Bosmer. I think he's the only demiprince we ever see in any TES game.

He is pretty cute. I actually felt motivated to help him get his barons back. Honestly, there was more story to that place than I expected when I went into it the first time.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, could a minion of Mannimarco really pull off a poodle transformation? They don't seem like the brightest and best, is all I'm saying.

Maybe Mannimarco transformed him into a poodle himself? Forbidden knowledge he found in some old tome on Artaeum, maybe? He must have learned something useful there!

He learned how to ruin the best friendship he ever had! Seriously, though, I'm sure he picked up quite a bit of extracurricular knowledge.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

From all I've been able to discern, Barbas usually messes things up and has to spend most of his time trying to get back in his master's good graces.

I mean, Clavicus also messes up things. For other people. And maybe more purposefully.

Like master, like hound! The truly dynamic duo.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Probably not. The lore book seemed to be one of those "fringe theory" books that crop up from time to time, with the author spending a lot of time saying they know how most people view it, but they have figured out the truth.

If the Daedric Princes are some kind of energy strongly connected to their realms, and their realm and all its creatures are made out of the same energy and, if physically manifest, matter (chaotic creatia), then it would be an interesting question how consciousness works in that regard; whether some beings share it, with the Daedric Prince that rules the realm, or with other beings on the plane, and if only partially so, what makes the difference that some beings are connected and others not.

That makes me think of Torvesard, and how he had something always in the back of his mind about Ithelia, even though he was supposed to have forgotten like all the rest. A daedra who dreamed, wasn't he? So if there was some kind of shared consciousness between a prince and the daedra in their realm, just imprisoning Ithelia and making everyone forget her wouldn't have quite done the trick. That doesn't account for anyone else who might have been part of her realm, but it does hint at some kind of link.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You've mentioned this guy before, and I've tried to find him, but I never come across any murder blabbering from anyone. I might assume that's because you've taken care of the situation, but different servers, so...maybe others share your feelings for this fool. And yes, you did what you had to do.

A male Argonian somewhere on the left side of the harbour. I think he was kneeling between some barrels, probably assuming himself to be a master of secrecy. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets murdered often. Honestly, after our very first encounter, which was on release day directly when I set foot on Solstice for the first time, I never checked on him anymore.

I'll look for him again at some point. See if murder plans is all he talks about. Usually when I'm just outside Sunport by the harbour, I'm there to feed that dog.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I hadn't considered that it might be a bug. In a way, I hope it is, because then it's not intentional. I guess it could be done on purpose to try to show their disinterest in the people of the mainland.

Then they'd probably say at least something? Like "Leave me alone" or "I'm busy, sorry"?

I didn't say it was done well, just trying to think of some reason it might be done on purpose.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

True. I felt for that dog and his person more than I did for most of the Solstice npcs. But I do like animals better than people, so I guess that tracks.

I definitely prefer animals over most people, but even if this story was about two people instead of a man and his dog, it has a good formula at least: It's tragic, there's an element of deep friendship, not only of death but of sacrifice, or even double-sacrifice in a way (with the necromancer willingly accepting to possibly become a social outcast for what he's done) - that's just a formula that works well to induce emotions in a reader. Now I'd rather see more like that in the actual quests than "Random lady swooning over random buff guy" or some not very interesting fetch quest.

What, fetching the ingredients for someone's potion (why are they always out of ingredients?) doesn't give you an emotional stake in their life?

Syldras wrote: »

And honestly, it's not hard to not feel much for most npcs, if there's nothing meaningful about them. And with "meaningful" I don't mean status or importance, but actually things that make them feel like individuals with a character, with interests, talents and flaws, possibly secrets, and most of all: Emotions. That's what makes people interesting, after all, and deeper interest is what makes us care.

Agreed, and it doesn't even take that much to reach that point, as the flavor text for that pet shows. Well, we've talked about characters being too quippy already, and not seeming to show emotion, so I won't rehash it. But I do wish they could get back to kind of writing that inspires connection.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I actually felt motivated to help him get his barons back. Honestly, there was more story to that place than I expected when I went into it the first time.

I found the whole thing rather interesting. We could need more lore on that, in my opinion. Fa-Nuit-Hen is actually mentioned in the Lessons of Vivec, by the way. Right at the beginning. So he's been in lore for over 20 years now.

I like Vivec and all, but his writing is often times like something out of a fever dream. I really have to be in the right mindset to read it. But, yes, there's so much in the Elder Scrolls world that could use more lore development.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He learned how to ruin the best friendship he ever had!

What do you mean by "he ruined it"? Vanny could have been more tolerant!

And Mannimarco could have, for once, actually tried listening to what Vanny was saying instead of outright dismissing his concerns!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That makes me think of Torvesard, and how he had something always in the back of his mind about Ithelia, even though he was supposed to have forgotten like all the rest. A daedra who dreamed, wasn't he? So if there was some kind of shared consciousness between a prince and the daedra in their realm, just imprisoning Ithelia and making everyone forget her wouldn't have quite done the trick. That doesn't account for anyone else who might have been part of her realm, but it does hint at some kind of link.

There's still a lot of background lore they could write on the actual nature of the daedric realms and their inhabitants. I'm just not sure whether many people would be interested in such details. The metaphysics, basically.

Well, if I had to put up with two chapters of working for Mora, other people can put up with a few lore books on the metaphysics of daedric realms. Though I wonder who would have the expertise to write such a book. What mortal could really comprehend it? What daedric entity would think to write about it? And then even if they did, it might be one of the books Mora decides no one else is allowed to read, because he's a selfish hoarder of knowledge.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'll look for him again at some point. See if murder plans is all he talks about.

You mean he might have more than just 1 character aspect? That would be more than what's left of Jakarn now.

He has at least two character traits: blabbing about murder, and being completely silent. I found him the other day, and he had nothing to say. At all. He walked back and forth. He did not speak. Although, interestingly enough, his corpse was also lying at the end of the dock while he was studying whatever animals they have in cages a few yards away. Perhaps seeing his own body lying discarded prompted him to silence.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I like Vivec and all, but his writing is often times like something out of a fever dream. I really have to be in the right mindset to read it.

To me, it's very interesting to look into. I read it as highly symbolic and sense the intentions he possibly had for writing what he wrote. Especially the first part about the time before his birth is interesting (he basically uses it to justify his reign about all kinds of different people and even forms of life by claiming to be somehow related to all of them) and I see parallels to real world myths. A friend said he specifically recognizes some similarities to Mesopotamian texts.

It's very interesting, but sometimes a bit hard to parse, particularly if one comes across some of his writings when out questing, and one's mind isn't really in a mood to comprehend god-like musings.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And Mannimarco could have, for once, actually tried listening to what Vanny was saying instead of outright dismissing his concerns!

He might have just not noticed. The thing is, that, how to put it? Someone who is rather dominant, very straightforward, ambitious and focused on their goals might not hear comparatively quieter concerns, especially if they come from someone who might be rather shy and possibly generally a bit struggling in voicing their opinions clearly. That such a shy person might sometimes be drawn to specifically that non-shy type also doesn't help. Not trying to excuse it, just saying it happens. Especially if the people involved are still young and clueless.

Men of power...all depressingly the same. Too bad Mannimarco couldn't break the mold.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, if I had to put up with two chapters of working for Mora, other people can put up with a few lore books on the metaphysics of daedric realms.

The main question unfortunately is (although that's legit of course, since this is a commercial product): Does it sell? Or would the average person find it so boring that they would have no interest in such a story?

As a quest arc, I don't know how well people would like it. I was thinking more of it being distributed about in a few lore books that people could read or not as the mood struck them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Though I wonder who would have the expertise to write such a book. What mortal could really comprehend it? What daedric entity would think to write about it?

I'm confident the writers who wrote CWC would also manage to make something interesting out of that topic.

Oh, I wasn't meaning the real world writers of the content. I was wondering what in-game fictitious person could possibly claim to know such matters.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And then even if they did, it might be one of the books Mora decides no one else is allowed to read, because he's a selfish hoarder of knowledge.

It could be a quest about getting a hand on that thing nonetheless. Stealing it for Divayth Fyr or something.

I dunno. When people try to get at one of Mora's books, it almost never ends well for them. I'd just as soon not put myself in Mora's way again. Fyr can do his own thieving (for once).

Oh, you know, I have now experienced the Hero's Return content they have set up for people coming back after a break. I have a second account and the last time I was on it was for the anniversary event. I decided to do the scribing pursuit on it, and when I logged in I was treated to the ability to do the Hero's Return. That's, what, two and a half months not logging in? Maybe closer to three. Anyway, the part with Vanny is very short and seems to mostly serve as a reminder of how combat works. But, and this is what I found interesting: Vanny seems less stand-offish in this quest than he does normally. You do get to chat with him a little bit, but most of it is combat focused as you help him with another dilemma he's in the middle of. And the antagonist at one point calls him "old man," which for some reason I found quite funny.

Anyway, most of the hero's return is focused on a series of smaller golden pursuits designed to refamiliarize people with how the game works. Lots of rewards to help a returning player get back on their journey. For what it's meant to do, I think it does the job pretty well. A bit wasted on me, since I haven't actually been absent from the game, but it was nice to see what it was all about.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He has at least two character traits: blabbing about murder, and being completely silent. I found him the other day, and he had nothing to say. At all. He walked back and forth. He did not speak. Although, interestingly enough, his corpse was also lying at the end of the dock while he was studying whatever animals they have in cages a few yards away. Perhaps seeing his own body lying discarded prompted him to silence.

Well, that's interesting. Maybe it's indeed a bug and right after release (which was the only time I talked to that guy) npcs were still having some kind of voice lines? Wasn't there some update or bug fix the day after release day? Maybe that just introduced a different bug. It's over a month already and I would have assumed someone must have noticed by now if it's indeed not supposed to be like this, but who knows... I might send a report the next time I'm logged in.

I wonder if such a bug also applies to the silent npcs in Sunport. Except they were silent on day one, too. So, who knows.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's very interesting, but sometimes a bit hard to parse, particularly if one comes across some of his writings when out questing, and one's mind isn't really in a mood to comprehend god-like musings.

Ah yes, it's not perfect to only come across parts of it and most probably not even in the right order. When it comes to longer lore texts, I usually read them on UESP. Well, most lorebooks, actually, since there often tend to be disturbances when reading lorebooks in game...

I tend to read an in-game book series in order after I've found them all by accessing them through the lore library in the character journal (though that could stand to be better organized). One reason I like to read the books when I come across them, though, is that I really like the sound effects of the book opening, the pages turning, and then the book closing. There's something very satisfying about that parchment rustling sound and the soft "thump" of a closing book.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Men of power...all depressingly the same. Too bad Mannimarco couldn't break the mold.

I wouldn't say it's so much about power. Mannimarco was in his early 20s or so at that time and still low in rank, after all. It's more about being very self-confident, energetic, and over-focused on one's plans, which might lead to an unconscious blindness towards things that are not obviously part of those already elaborated plans.

And generally it's the tragic paradox of people too self-confident to notice other people's doubts and objections often being strangely appealing to people who are almost too shy to voice these things anyway. I mean, as long as it works and there is no dissent, it can be really fun, for both. Until it's not fun anymore.

Of course I'm only speculating and interpreting. We all try to make sense of things based on our experiences (Although I honestly can't even say for sure how plausible it is; Can people be that unaware towards someone they care for?).

I think they can be, for a variety of reasons. You're never going to be inside someone else's mind, so if they don't voice their thoughts and concerns, it's harder to know what those are--particularly if you're a person who isn't very good at picking up on social cues, or perhaps just not very observant in general. Human (or mer, in this case) communication can be a quagmire, even with the best intentions.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I wasn't meaning the real world writers of the content. I was wondering what in-game fictitious person could possibly claim to know such matters.

There are so many mages as well as philosophers; I'd be surprised if there weren't dozens of theories about that topic. At least one person has to come up with a reasonable one

Well, sure, but I was hoping for a book that told me the truth with a capital T. Not some educated musings by Morian Zenas or Divayth Fyr, regardless of how well stated they were. But I know that's expecting too much from the lore.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You do get to chat with him a little bit, but most of it is combat focused as you help him with another dilemma he's in the middle of.

A kidnapping gone wrong?

Ha, not this time. More like a former student with grandiose plans meddling with a power source they don't quite understand. The Great Mage is in fine form throughout.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And the antagonist at one point calls him "old man," which for some reason I found quite funny.

What's so funny about that? I call everyone even just minimally older than me "old man" - including my ex, just to mock him. Well, actually it's more teasing than mocking and I already did it before we broke up (and we're still close friends anyway; honestly, he's the loveliest old man I know, almost as charming as he's old, which means, very much so ).

I call my husband 'old man' sometimes, too, as a gentle tease (though it's getting closer to the truth as the years go by), but what struck me as funny was someone calling the Great Mage "old man" as a genuine insult--like Vanny is past his prime and should just let the younger generation take over already. It was the whole setting and line delivery which made me laugh at it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

One reason I like to read the books when I come across them, though, is that I really like the sound effects of the book opening, the pages turning, and then the book closing. There's something very satisfying about that parchment rustling sound and the soft "thump" of a closing book.

Yes, that's indeed enjoyable. But unfortunately, lorebooks often tend to be placed at unsafe locations lately, and then it's not exactly relaxing to know that an enemy might respawn and attack in any second.

That's my Altmer's version of living life on the edge: reading a lore book in a daedric ruin.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think they can be, for a variety of reasons. You're never going to be inside someone else's mind, so if they don't voice their thoughts and concerns, it's harder to know what those are--particularly if you're a person who isn't very good at picking up on social cues, or perhaps just not very observant in general. Human (or mer, in this case) communication can be a quagmire, even with the best intentions.

Friends told me I was a very perceptive person, so when I had been accused of the same thing once, they told me it was probably just some convenient excuse, nothing more, since if there had been something, I would have been able to notice somehow - I must have been. But who knows. Although "accused" isn't even the right word; it wasn't truly an accusation, as there was no blame, it was just an explanation for why things wouldn't be able to go on, despite everything ("I still love you, I'll always love you, but I just can't"): "I never knew." - "I did tell you. Often. You just never noticed." - "But now that you told me, I can change." - "No! Please never change. Be yourself, you're perfect as you are. I just don't seem to be compatible with that." So it ended from one day to another. The last thing he did was returning my letters to me, telling me that my thoughts, my poetry and my drawings were a part of me, and even if he had been a part of it for years, in the end they belonged to me. And so it ended after almost a decade and I left. Never talked to him again. It's 15 years now. Yes, yes, the drama of youth, I know.

That sounds like a case of you were perceptive enough, but the thoughts going on his mind were quite tangled. Everyone's perception of how things happen is different, too. "Telling you often" might have meant it was mentioned once or twice, in some context or the other, clearly stated in his view, not so much in yours. People often latch onto different details of any given incident/event/moment and that becomes their significant memory, while someone else doesn't register it much at all. (I've run into that with my siblings and our different versions of childhood memories. "I don't remember that at all," my sister might say. "But you were standing right there," I will insist.) The ending of that relationship does sound very dramatic, and perhaps that was down to youth, or perhaps not. Hmm, I realize it sounds rather like I'm trying to psychoanalyze your story, and I promise I'm not; I'm just musing on human interactions.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, sure, but I was hoping for a book that told me the truth with a capital T. Not some educated musings by Morian Zenas or Divayth Fyr, regardless of how well stated they were. But I know that's expecting too much from the lore.

I'm really not sure whether any mortal could comprehend that truth, or not just any mortal, but any being at all. Except for Hermaeus Mora maybe; although, who knows whether even the Daedric Princes might not know exactly what they are and why. Maybe they're just as clueless about their being and their realms, or cosmology as a whole, as humans are about some aspects of their own existence. We too, might have lots of theories, but there are things we don't know, and will never know for sure, including things about our own nature.

Yes, it's a big ask, I know. "Tell me the absolute truth of your existence." Now, the daedra can't create, only imitate (or so a book told me, or maybe it was a loading screen) so I suppose them knowing the why of their existence would be a bit much to expect.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The Great Mage is in fine form throughout.

Yes, I heard so - and fresh from the hairdresser's, too.

And with fancy robes on!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I call my husband 'old man' sometimes, too, as a gentle tease (though it's getting closer to the truth as the years go by), but what struck me as funny was someone calling the Great Mage "old man" as a genuine insult--like Vanny is past his prime and should just let the younger generation take over already. It was the whole setting and line delivery which made me laugh at it.

The question is: Is he? I mean, he's just leading a book club anyway, but still. Also, if he fully retires, he has more time for his hobbies!

The other day, after we returned yet another relic to Alvur Baren, Bastian said, "I've heard people say the Mages Guild is just a fancy book club...." I asked him, "Have you been talking to Syldras again?" He said, "...if it is, it's a book club with some very dangerous books." Well! I know an evasive non-answer when I hear one!

As for Vanny, he seems like one of those, "I'll retire when I'm dead," people. (Little does he know, he won't have that luxury.)

Is he past his prime? I couldn't say. I haven't known him long enough. What is considered "prime" for someone who has lived so long, anyway?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's my Altmer's version of living life on the edge: reading a lore book in a daedric ruin.

But isn't being disrupted while reading horribly frustrating?

Yes, but it adds a certain zest to the perusal of tomes. And gives me an excuse to bust some skulls. More of an excuse.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

and perhaps that was down to youth, or perhaps not.

It's hard to say who or what ruined it, but in the end, also that doesn't matter, I guess. Maybe I should have been more attentive. Maybe he should have been more vocal. Maybe I failed to give him more confidence to become more vocal. Then again, he was older than me and I was, from today's perspective, utterly clueless about what I was doing anyway.

All I know by now is that I tend to often attract certain types who feel drawn to me for specific things, while then not being able to handle those things, it seems. It's paradox.

Trying to figure out the "why" of past events can be impossible at times, and pointless at others, and sometimes both. It is interesting how people do seem to attract the same type of individual, whether they want to or not. In my youth, I tended to attract a certain type of guy: selfish, I'll say. Self-absorbed, too. Part of that was probably their equally young age, but it was maddening, really. So I said, "Forget it! I'm done with dating! Men are useless!" (I was pretty dramatic back then.) Ah, but I can laugh about it now because it's been a long time, and I did meet someone who wasn't useless, and those other guys just don't matter in the scope of my life.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now, the daedra can't create, only imitate (or so a book told me, or maybe it was a loading screen) so I suppose them knowing the why of their existence would be a bit much to expect.

If they can only imitate, or even compulsively imitate, they would also have to imitate all flaws. And human stupidity. Now I feel sorry for them.

Well, based on my encounters with them in the game, they've got the human stupidity part down. But they don't seem to imitate everything. They're never kind, for example. Pretty sure they don't fall in love. Maybe they could mimic the actions, but never the emotions. Yet they seem to have the emotions of anger and so forth, so I don't really know if they're incapable of feeling the so-called "softer" emotions, or they just see no value in it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The other day, after we returned yet another relic to Alvur Baren

That's incorrect; it's always the same

Right, right! My mistake.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Bastian said, "I've heard people say the Mages Guild is just a fancy book club...." I asked him, "Have you been talking to Syldras again?" He said, "...if it is, it's a book club with some very dangerous books." Well! I know an evasive non-answer when I hear one!

Did he really say that? I rarely have him with me, so I barely know his lines. Which might also be answering your question, in a way.

He really does say that! Not often. Usually it's about magic being like strange wine. Or not wanting to live in world without magic. Or magic and falling in love being similar. He's got a lot of feelings about magic.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for Vanny, he seems like one of those, "I'll retire when I'm dead," people.

He just doesn't have enough hobbies, it seems. Beyond getting kidnapped, that is. Although I'd think that's a rather time-consuming interest - how long is he away now? - so he should actually be happy about every free day he might spend in some cozy cold musty cell.

You can't ask questions that depend on knowing the passage of time. That's unknowable in Tamriel! Has he been gone a week? A day? A few hours? We may never know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

(Little does he know, he won't have that luxury.)

Maybe he is, in principle, retired in death. All he does for and with Mannimarco in his thrall state probably rather counts as a pastime activity, after all. Unless he's still collecting books. Or cataloguing new ones that Mannimarco's idiot cultists bring along.

I guess cataloguing cultist books could be a retirement activity. Then he can be president of that book club, too!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Is he past his prime? I couldn't say. I haven't known him long enough. What is considered "prime" for someone who has lived so long, anyway?

That question is easier to answer for Mannimarco, somehow.

Right. Well, if we ever see Vanny living in a cave with no shoes on, we'll maybe be closer to an answer.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, but it adds a certain zest to the perusal of tomes.

If they're interesting by themselves, then that wouldn't be necessary for me.

True, true, but something like Old Slaughterfish's Guide to Fishing Tamriel could use a bit of added excitement.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And gives me an excuse to bust some skulls. More of an excuse.

I sometimes get a little irritated too when disturbed while reading.

I knew you'd understand.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is interesting how people do seem to attract the same type of individual, whether they want to or not. In my youth, I tended to attract a certain type of guy: selfish, I'll say. Self-absorbed, too. Part of that was probably their equally young age, but it was maddening, really.

In my case it's most often the shy, admiring type, no matter their age. And I don't really mind, there's something endearing about it. It just gets problematic when they're so shy they never speak their mind or run off if there's some difficulty.

It's funny actually, when I was younger and still had more social contacts, there were sometimes over half a dozen of them at once (both male and female) who were interested in getting to know me better (I kid you not, friends were sometimes joking I should build a harem; and I always wondered what's so interesting about me, because I don't think I'm even particularly attractive). In 95% of cases, I rejected all attentions because I already had the feeling it would lead nowhere anyway. Little did I know in the other 5% of cases it would lead nowhere as well

Well, I was never that popular with the guys: no harems for me! But, really, it's just as well. I'm sure I would have only been more disappointed than I ended up being. I joke that I used up my full allotment of life luck when I met my husband. Worth it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, based on my encounters with them in the game, they've got the human stupidity part down. But they don't seem to imitate everything. They're never kind, for example. Pretty sure they don't fall in love.

Don't give them any ideas.

Ha, yeah, that's a storyline I don't want to see.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe they could mimic the actions, but never the emotions. Yet they seem to have the emotions of anger and so forth, so I don't really know if they're incapable of feeling the so-called "softer" emotions, or they just see no value in it.

They might be focused on power and increasing their influence, so they might only mimic emotions useful for that. And possibly not even because they actually find any positive emotions in having power, but more like... well, like some lifeform that, by laws of nature, strives for expansion, because that's just part of its "biological" program. If we view the Daedric Princes basically as natural powers and only manifestations of some kind of energy, that's not unfitting, I think. Actually I'd like to see more that hints on this, that these aren't actually sentient entities like, well, mortal people, but only something like avatars or personifications or allegories of their realm or a certain aspect of nature. But I don't know of course whether that concept would be comprehensible and interesting enough for the average player. What we saw in Necrom and Gold Road was actually the opposite direction.

That's an interesting take on the Daedric Princes, and I have wondered how much of them is just a reflection of certain aspects of creation, so to speak. Basically, how much agency do they really have? But then there are the ones who changed, like Sheogorath. Though I'm not entirely clear on him, but wasn't he Jyggalag first? And then the whole Trinimac/Malacath bit. Or Malacath/Mauloch. Then when we come to the ones like Namiira or Peryite. "Well, creation has disease and illness and pestilence, so there must be a god of some sort for those, but the divines surely wouldn't do that to their beloved mortals, so it must be the Daedric Princes"--I could see that being a line of thinking employed by the mortals, and then picked up on and reflected by daedra because that's what they do: imitate. So it's like a form of interdependence: the mortals created it, and the daedra imitated it/became it. Then again, in the Elder Scrolls world, the Daedric Princes and the Divines are actual entities, not just figments of mortal imagination, so perhaps it's more basic than I'm thinking.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He really does say that! Not often. Usually it's about magic being like strange wine. Or not wanting to live in world without magic. Or magic and falling in love being similar. He's got a lot of feelings about magic.

He seems to have more feelings about magic than me, which might be interesting considering I'm a Master Wizard of Great House Telvanni. Or maybe it's not that interesting, and even less surprising, because I'm not of the sentimental sort

Well, Bastian is quite sentimental.

I heard a new line from him today (well, new to me). I was in Sunport, looking at my map (always with the map) and some rando challenged me to a duel. As I clicked "decline," Bastian offered this nugget of wisdom: "Dueling never determines who is right, only who is left." Ah, I laughed, and told him I appreciated how he worked a bit of word play into his homily.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You can't ask questions that depend on knowing the passage of time. That's unknowable in Tamriel! Has he been gone a week? A day? A few hours? We may never know.

I really think that, in terms of storytelling, having a defined passage of time between different chapters and dlcs would be useful. So they could just define Mannimarco to have been dead for, let's say, 7 years (although then his corpse would, uhm, well, there wouldn't be that much left of it, probably, especially if the sarcophagus was made from alum or similar stone, unless it naturally mummified, of course) - no matter if a player might play the ending of the base game main quest and the whole Solstice Part 1 main story on one day. We can't say what we experience in game is real time anyway - when we unearth an antiquity we even get a screen that says one day passed and we get a message the following day.

Yeah, for the antiquities, I figured I just camped all night at the dig site because I was tired from all the shoveling. But, really, outstanding postal service!

In more serious terms, I would like a defined timeline. I've never liked the idea that everything is happening in the same year, because that's bonkers. I also never understood why they were so against advancing the year. Now we know time has advanced, but we don't know by how much. Most I heard them define it was "some number of years" or, actually, it might have been even more vague, along the lines of "some amount of time." So, one of the questions in the loremaster's archive was simply put: What year is it? I really want them to answer that, in a sincere way. I don't want Prince Azah giving me some coy answer like, "everyone knows the year; consult your Tamriel calendar."

As to the state of Mannimarco's corpse: I'm sure he left instructions for the Worm Cult to carefully preserve it, despite the shoddy workmanship of the sarcophagus. Preservation spells. Or keeping him in a deep freeze. You know: a wizard did it. But even if a wizard didn't do it, apparently necromancers of skill can reconstitute bodies, so if Mannimarco has to make a few adjustments in the end, yep, a wizard did it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right. Well, if we ever see Vanny living in a cave with no shoes on, we'll maybe be closer to an answer.

What's worse: Having no shoes and living in a cave, or having shoes but no place to stay at all?

That depends entirely on the quality and style of the shoes.

Oh, here's something about Wormblood. I did the part of the main quest in Solstice today where the cult attacks the palace district of Sunport. When you first enter from the secret passage, Farinor is talking to a projection of Wormblood. I hustled over there to try to get a good look at him, and realized he wasn't wearing a mask. It's a short conversation, and they're up on a platform, so I couldn't get a very good look, but it didn't look like Mannimarco's face. I tried leaving the area and coming back in to see if that would trigger the conversation again (that sometimes happens on quests) but it didn't.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

True, true, but something like Old Slaughterfish's Guide to Fishing Tamriel could use a bit of added excitement.

I suggest reading it while in deep water, and possibly while being bitten by slaughterfish. Adds a lot to the experience.

Of some experiences, a little goes a long way. Also, I don't like to take my books into water.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I was never that popular with the guys: no harems for me! But, really, it's just as well. I'm sure I would have only been more disappointed than I ended up being. I joke that I used up my full allotment of life luck when I met my husband. Worth it.

That's true. One would have been enough for me; at best the first one. That's the big irony of it all: How so many people found me appealing for some unknown reason, and I just ignored it most of the time because it's nothing I care for much.

Which in turn probably increased the level of appeal, people wanting what they can't have, and such. Humans are odd little critters, I've found.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ha, yeah, that's a storyline I don't want to see.

Next episode: Hermaeus Mora falls in love with Vaermina; unfortunately, she hates him and is already dating Sanguine.

Lol...no, no, and no!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's an interesting take on the Daedric Princes, and I have wondered how much of them is just a reflection of certain aspects of creation, so to speak. Basically, how much agency do they really have?

There is the claim that they are just personifications of their realm. Their realm forms based on them, and if their realm changes, they are changed as well (which would actually an interesting idea for another world-ending threat story: Baddie changes daedric realm to manipulate Daedric Prince to something that benefits him).

That would be interesting, and potentially something we might actually want to interfere or help with, depending on the intended change. But if their realm forms based on them, it seems they came first. But if they change if their realm changes, it seems they are dependent on the realm. I suppose both can be true. Like the ouroboros.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But then there are the ones who changed, like Sheogorath. Though I'm not entirely clear on him, but wasn't he Jyggalag first?

He was Jyggalag, and it's said he had been cursed by the other princes.

So, is that another instance of them working together? Or joining forces to some extent?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And then the whole Trinimac/Malacath bit.

We have to consider that what we know about these things are most often myths, nothing more. So we can't say for sure what actually happened.

Yeah, and that's what made me wonder what came first: the princes, or the stories about them. Well, I'm not as well-versed on the lore as you are, that's for sure.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then when we come to the ones like Namiira or Peryite. "Well, creation has disease and illness and pestilence, so there must be a god of some sort for those, but the divines surely wouldn't do that to their beloved mortals, so it must be the Daedric Princes"--I could see that being a line of thinking employed by the mortals, and then picked up on and reflected by daedra because that's what they do: imitate. So it's like a form of interdependence: the mortals created it, and the daedra imitated it/became it. Then again, in the Elder Scrolls world, the Daedric Princes and the Divines are actual entities, not just figments of mortal imagination, so perhaps it's more basic than I'm thinking.

They are supposed to have already existed before everything else. The interesting question would be whether they always were like we know them now, or how much they might have changed over time, by what ever influence.

Right, because it was the Aedra who gave of themselves to create Mundus, but the Daedra didn't. Do I have that right? So what were the first interactions between the denizens of Nirn and the Daedric Princes like? See, usually mythologies are created by humans trying to explain their world. Why does the sun rise? Because a guy in a chariot pulls it across the sky. (It's not like the gods were there, giving humans lessons on who they were and what they did.) But on Nirn, the Daedric Princes do actually exist, so how did the introduction between them and the peoples of Nirn (or at least Tamriel) start? For that matter, how did they come to know of the Divines, since they don't actually show up on Nirn?

If people are creating mythologies to explain the mysteries and absurdities of the world, it's easier for me to understand how it starts. But if the pantheon actually exists, it seems weirder to me, for some reason. I keep thinking about that first introduction. Does anyone actually survive a first meeting with Dagon or Molag Bal? Oh, these are probably just silly questions. The main point is, I would like some more exploration of the metaphysics of the Daedric Princes to show up somewhere in the game.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, Bastian is quite sentimental.

He's fine the way he is, really. It's just that I'm usually travelling with Azandar. If we could have more companions with us at once, I'd might see him a little more often.

Yes, I adore Bastian. I love his sincerity and his earnest demeanor and his dorky philosophizing. He's just really good-natured, and I like that. I like other companions, too. I tend to match companions with characters, and the only character who recruits them all is my main character.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I heard a new line from him today (well, new to me). I was in Sunport, looking at my map (always with the map) and some rando challenged me to a duel. As I clicked "decline," Bastian offered this nugget of wisdom: "Dueling never determines who is right, only who is left." Ah, I laughed, and told him I appreciated how he worked a bit of word play into his homily.

That does fit him! Never heard that before either, but then again, I usually don't get challenged; or if I do, then it's on purpose, when there's a daily endeavour about it, and then I accept, of course. Well, no, usually I initiate. And I can't remember hearing any companion comment on that so far.

I don't duel, and it's rare that someone just shoves a duel invitation at me, so hearing that line was definitely a special moment. I would think Isobel would comment on dueling, what with being a knight and all. Comment favorably, that is. I could imagine comments from the others, but I've never actually heard any.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, for the antiquities, I figured I just camped all night at the dig site because I was tired from all the shoveling. But, really, outstanding postal service!

I think it's a bit strange. No matter how exhausted I'd be, I'd return to my inn room at least. Especially if there's wayshrines and other methods of magical fast-travel.

Oh, it's strange, all right! But since we see the day turn to night as we progress the dig, and then the antiquity gets sent over night to the circle, and it's morning again when we read the note...well, given all that, I had to work with what I had.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In more serious terms, I would like a defined timeline. I've never liked the idea that everything is happening in the same year, because that's bonkers. I also never understood why they were so against advancing the year. Now we know time has advanced, but we don't know by how much. Most I heard them define it was "some number of years" or, actually, it might have been even more vague, along the lines of "some amount of time." So, one of the questions in the loremaster's archive was simply put: What year is it? I really want them to answer that, in a sincere way. I don't want Prince Azah giving me some coy answer like, "everyone knows the year; consult your Tamriel calendar."

Funny thing, there's an ongoing counter for the moon phases since the game started. According to that, right now it's...



So, if that would actually count, 46 years would have already passed. Of course that would mean that some older characters should be dead by now.

That is interesting! But I think that's a bit too much time for the narrative.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to the state of Mannimarco's corpse: I'm sure he left instructions for the Worm Cult to carefully preserve it, despite the shoddy workmanship of the sarcophagus. Preservation spells. Or keeping him in a deep freeze. You know: a wizard did it.

How much of him was even left at the ending of the main quest line?

I really don't know. I don't remember there actually being a body left behind. We square off with him in Sancre Tor, beat him (presumably to death) but then he rises again because necromancer (even taunts us about that, I believe) and then we fight him some more and Molag Bal shows up and says, "I knew what you were doing all along, fool!" and yoinks him away. I don't recall there being anything physical left of him at that point. But now according to lore, and Walks-in-Ash, his devoted followers picked up his corpse after we left. Does it make sense? Not really.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But even if a wizard didn't do it, apparently necromancers of skill can reconstitute bodies, so if Mannimarco has to make a few adjustments in the end, yep, a wizard did it.

Must have been the Breton Borellus, or Pierre Borel, which was his common name.
https://www.cthulhufiles.com/necro/necromancy.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Borel
He's so skilled, he can work with dust!

Don't you go citing Lovecraft at me! You know I can't even with him!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, here's something about Wormblood. I did the part of the main quest in Solstice today where the cult attacks the palace district of Sunport. When you first enter from the secret passage, Farinor is talking to a projection of Wormblood. I hustled over there to try to get a good look at him, and realized he wasn't wearing a mask. It's a short conversation, and they're up on a platform, so I couldn't get a very good look, but it didn't look like Mannimarco's face. I tried leaving the area and coming back in to see if that would trigger the conversation again (that sometimes happens on quests) but it didn't.

Are you sure? Maybe he wore his mask but his eyeballs and teeth were shining through? Seems to be the latest fad when it comes to magical projections, after all.

In point of fact, I'm not positive, because the look I got at him was so brief, and from an odd angle, but I think there was no mask.

I got to the point where Vanny shows up in the throne room to tell us to go to the place where the wall is thinner, and was dismayed to see that, yes, he does have his old hair back, and it's severely clipping through his new robes. That made me wonder: how does that happen? They update his model, but then somehow the old hair creeps back in? I could see if somehow his old model entirely showed up, but it was his new robes. Anyway, next part of the quest will be the creepy eyeball teeth thing, unless they fixed it. The main quest goes by pretty fast when you aren't bothering with exploration or side quests! I keep running past those hopeful npcs, calling out to me, and I'm like, "Sorry, not interested!" One of them asked me if I was heading to Sanguine's fair, and I told him, "Clearly not; I'm walking in the opposite direction. Now stop bothering me."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I don't like to take my books into water.

Normally, I'd agree, but I have the feeling that there's a whole category of books made for exactly this purpose: Taking them into water, putting them beneath the leg of a shaky table, using them to light the hearth, or throwing them at annoying visitors to emphasize your request for them to leave. Because one thing is for certain: By how horribly they're written, their intended purpose can't be to be read.

True, I wasn't thinking of those sorts of books. Good point.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Which in turn probably increased the level of appeal, people wanting what they can't have, and such. Humans are odd little critters, I've found.

Indeed I sometimes have the impression they don't even know for sure what they want; like people full of adoration for an unconventional lifestyle, but then complaining about the individual with said unconventional lifestyle not being interested in marriage and children. Or admiring someone having many different hobbies (and fully wanting to join in - and of course being welcomed to do so), and that's fine and dandy, until they suddenly decide they don't actually like these many different hobbies anymore, so you're supposed not to pursue them anymore either to have time for whatever they then decide they enjoy more.

That sounds like a variation on the "I can change him!" theme/trope. Frustrating, I imagine.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be interesting, and potentially something we might actually want to interfere or help with, depending on the intended change.

Being able to side with a faction and having different endings for a zone story would be something I'd absolutely like to see.

Same here. That would also enhance replayability.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, and that's what made me wonder what came first: the princes, or the stories about them. Well, I'm not as well-versed on the lore as you are, that's for sure.

Who knows? If the first mortal wrote about some entity, how could we know whether this entity really existed before that or whether it came to existence through that act of imagination? But I think we're going deeper here than it was ever intended for this fictional universe; in the end it's a fantasy narration with "gods" and spirits of some kind, that are... just there.

Likely we are overthinking it (again). Of course, that's a good sign of a well-developed world, I think.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So what were the first interactions between the denizens of Nirn and the Daedric Princes like? See, usually mythologies are created by humans trying to explain their world. Why does the sun rise? Because a guy in a chariot pulls it across the sky. (It's not like the gods were there, giving humans lessons on who they were and what they did.) But on Nirn, the Daedric Princes do actually exist, so how did the introduction between them and the peoples of Nirn (or at least Tamriel) start? For that matter, how did they come to know of the Divines, since they don't actually show up on Nirn?
If people are creating mythologies to explain the mysteries and absurdities of the world, it's easier for me to understand how it starts. But if the pantheon actually exists, it seems weirder to me, for some reason. I keep thinking about that first introduction. Does anyone actually survive a first meeting with Dagon or Molag Bal? Oh, these are probably just silly questions. The main point is, I would like some more exploration of the metaphysics of the Daedric Princes to show up somewhere in the game.

I fully agree with that! What we have so far, are many myths. We might have a timeline of some sort that mentions different events where something is supposed to have happened, like some contact between Daedra and mortals, but in the end, everything is a unreliable story. What we know is only what we see, like when we see a Daedric Prince (or a lesser daedroth) with our own eyes, or the realms or the artifacts we come across. So, yes, we need more on cosmology and metaphysics!

Yes, indeed! Myths are all well and good, and quite interesting, but sometimes I just want to know something for certain. It doesn't have to be a every detail explained or laid out clearly, but a few anchor points, I guess I would call them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, I adore Bastian. I love his sincerity and his earnest demeanor and his dorky philosophizing. He's just really good-natured, and I like that. I like other companions, too. I tend to match companions with characters, and the only character who recruits them all is my main character.

It's strange to see how often people bash him. He's a bit kitschy at times, but even if that might not appeal to me personally, I don't see how that's something so horrible one might feel the need to denigrate him.

I think it's because he was one of the first and so received a lot of attention, much of it negative. The reasons for the negative attention vary, and I have my thoughts on why (the word "edgelord" comes up in those thoughts), but when it was only the two companions, Mirri had a strong lead in popularity. Plus there were just some outright misconceptions about Bastian that people really got bent out of shape over. (One was they thought he was a teetotaler, not realizing it was cheese he didn't like, and they thought him not liking booze made him an insufferable goody-two-shoes--or at least that's something I remember from back then.) Then I think it became kind of a fad to show how much you hated him. Eh, oh well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't duel, and it's rare that someone just shoves a duel invitation at me, so hearing that line was definitely a special moment. I would think Isobel would comment on dueling, what with being a knight and all. Comment favorably, that is. I could imagine comments from the others, but I've never actually heard any.

Maybe I should do a little testing in that regard; can't be that long until we're graced with another dueling endeavor - once more. I don't enjoy it much either, just doing it for the currency, and then it's not very interesting, either. It's usually just "Bosmer! It's spanking day again! Come here. Stand there. Don't move." Not that Bosmer, mind you, I just have a tendency to befriend Bosmer, it seems.

Do you call them all 'Bosmer'? Do you even know their names? Are you as bad as the npcs in game, calling everyone they see 'mercenary'?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That is interesting! But I think that's a bit too much time for the narrative.

I think 10 years would be fitting. One for each chapter. That would still be a lot of events for just one decade, but if we'd say it was 15 or 20 years, that would also feel a little too much for me? Generally it leads to problems, if one thinks about how the passing of time would affect the world and most of all its inhabitants. Some elderly must have already died, and some we still saw in their prime must have gotten old by now. With 10 years, that might still work, but, hoping that ESO will continue for years to come, what to do if we've really reached 20 years at some point? If a character we saw in their early 30's now is in their 50's - that is a noticeable difference.

I did initially think each chapter was a new year. As for characters aging, I suppose it depends on which race they are. A Breton might change noticeably between 30 and 50, and Altmer much less so. How old is King Emeric meant to be? Too much time passes, and we have to start wondering how he's staying alive so long. So, yeah, it's a bit of a sticking point. Not that I think that means time has to never advance, because that's even weirder.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Don't you go citing Lovecraft at me! You know I can't even with him!

Oh, this wasn't even so much about Lovecraft, it was just the best source I had at hand - and the best English translation. Of course I could have offered you Pierre Borel's original writings, but as they're in French and Latin, that might have not been helpful. Anyway, our friendly Breton necromancer alchemist Borellus wrote this - a quote which, in its English translation, was used as an intro to one of Lovecraft's works:
"The essential salts of animals may be so prepared and preserved that an ingenious man may have the whole Ark of Noah in his own study, and raise the fine shape of an animal out of its ashes at his pleasure. And by the like method, from the essential salts of human dust, a philosopher may, without any criminal necromancy (because if you say it's no necromancy, then it is none, obviously), call up the shape of any dead ancestor from the dust whereinto his body has been incinerated."
So, yes, all that is needed is dust.

Any dust? Like take any "human dust" and call up any ancestor? Seems suspect to me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In point of fact, I'm not positive, because the look I got at him was so brief, and from an odd angle, but I think there was no mask.

Or maybe there was indeed a mask but the buggy magical projections let you see his face through it, because everything beneath seems to shine through the outer layer.

Then the question would be of course whether that was really the finalized face we're supposed to see at some point, or just a placeholder because we're actually not supposed to see what's beneath the mask anyway.

I wonder if they think players are going to pay this much attention to an image that is around for a few seconds, and deliberately placed to be hard to see. I would think they know players pay attention to all sorts of details, but I guess you can't prepare for what, specifically will catch anyone's attention to this degree.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I got to the point where Vanny shows up in the throne room to tell us to go to the place where the wall is thinner, and was dismayed to see that, yes, he does have his old hair back, and it's severely clipping through his new robes. That made me wonder: how does that happen? They update his model, but then somehow the old hair creeps back in? I could see if somehow his old model entirely showed up, but it was his new robes.

Made me wonder whether it was intentional, so his hair being longer again might be meant as a signifier for the passing time. Or it was an oversight and they changed his hairstyle in the prologue rather late, and forgot to change it in Part 1 as well.

That would be very subtle for them to do, if that's what they meant. They don't usually do those kinds of changes for npcs during story quests. I think most we usually see is if we find someone in rags, and then later they're dressed in better gear. Generally they don't mess with their physical appearance during the course of a quest. I'm guessing some manner of oversight.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The main quest goes by pretty fast when you aren't bothering with exploration or side quests!

What would you say, how many hours does the main quest take, without anything else? I had estimated between 3 and 4?

That seems like a pretty good estimate. I'm also not taking as much time between steps to confer with the other npcs, since I know they don't have a whole lot to add. There are also still quite a few people on the same parts of the quest I am, which cuts down on mob-killing time. So, yeah, between three and four hours is a good guess.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

True, I wasn't thinking of those sorts of books. Good point.

I was very disappointed, by the way, when I lately was informed that the genre of "dark romance" was trending - and then found out that these sorry efforts are about romancing mortal humans, not even lich!

I haven't heard of "dark romance" before. What is that? Is it vampire stuff? Or is it "oh, this guy is dark and dangerous and I must have him"? Because, honestly, that just sounds like regular romance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That sounds like a variation on the "I can change him!" theme/trope. Frustrating, I imagine.

Sort of, maybe. Although I always thought the "I can change him!" theme is about changing small aspects that someone always detested, and nothing they found appealing at some point. Or even the main aspect of someone's character. At least that doesn't seem to make much sense to me; but then again, when do most humans make sense anyway?!

That's why I called it a variation. They're not trying to change the "unappealing" aspects, but they are trying to change the person to more of what they wanted. Possibly because some of the things they thought were appealing didn't actually appeal that much once they got to know them better, or they thought the person would be extra better if only they would do X. You know: "He's great! He does A, B, and C! But I'd like it better if he did less of A and B, and added D--then he'd be perfect!" I think that kind of mindset stems from thinking couples have to like all the same things, and do all the same things together.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Same here. That would also enhance replayability.

Didn't they even actually say that these new dialogue options would change quest outcomes? I didn't see anything of that so far.

I thought they did say that, but I haven't seen any outcomes changed.

The only change I can immediately recall was in the prologue, where you question the cultist Merric left behind to explain things. You can get him an herb to help with the pain or not, depending on choices, but then that's also just the old "intimidate" tactic we've had in game for awhile dressed up as angry response, and it just eliminates one step of the quest, doesn't change the outcome. Oh, this time when I talked to the cultist after the invasion of Sunport, I chose the non-violent method of dealing with him and the ending of that is I agreed to smuggle him off the island rather than just beat him up to get information. But, again, it doesn't change the outcome or even any part of the quest steps and I'm sure I never actually end up smuggling him anywhere. It's just a verbal change, and I guess you get to feel better about yourself for not beating up a murderous cultist. (A cultist, by the way, who told you to go ahead and kill him, he doesn't fear death, and so your "kind" response is to say: tell us what we want to know and we'll make sure you don't die. That's why I didn't choose it the first playthrough--didn't seem like a viable deal.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Likely we are overthinking it (again). Of course, that's a good sign of a well-developed world, I think.

The lore background of TES, at it is, seems quite unique to me in scope, especially for a video game series. It's a huge opportunity to build upon. I really hope the people who could expand on that are aware about the treasure they have there. It would be a pity to waste that.

I'm sure they're aware of it. I think most of the snags come from implementing it: how much to add, how much detail, where and when, and so forth.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think it's because he was one of the first and so received a lot of attention, much of it negative. The reasons for the negative attention vary, and I have my thoughts on why (the word "edgelord" comes up in those thoughts)

Oh, I think there's a lot of truth in that. It's strange how there's a shift in sentiment when it comes to media, about how morals are judged, with evil being celebrated (but only certain kinds of evil, of course) and morally good behavior being labeled as "boring".

Not even just when it comes to fiction, actually. Reminds me of a silly conversation I once had, where I was accused of being "stuffy" for not being interested in getting drunk on the weekends. Told that dimwit that maybe abiding to the peergroup's narrow-minded rules about what to do on weekends instead of following one's own interests might be the actual stuffy thing to do. Of course he was too dense to understand. It's alway funny though, how some people seem to think of themselves as oh so rebellious, while their behaviour has long since become normal, even normative, for their social group. Same as those guys who think adhering to some stereotype makes them cool and strong, while not adhering to it takes much more strength of will.

Ha, reminds me of how I was told to "loosen up" more than once, because I'd get annoyed with my roommates staying up late partying really loudly when I was trying to sleep (I had a job where I had to get up way early). I could have retorted that they should "grow up," but I didn't.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Do you call them all 'Bosmer'? Do you even know their names? Are you as bad as the npcs in game, calling everyone they see 'mercenary'?

Nah, I usually use silly pet names for them... I mean... What did I say? Privacy reasons. Yes. I won't name them here for privacy reasons

Lol! (That's all I got. You gave me a good early morning laugh.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How old is King Emeric meant to be? Too much time passes, and we have to start wondering how he's staying alive so long.

I don't even think he's that old, actually, but it's hard to say with ESO's graphics. Especially Bretons tend to look rather young most of the time.

Yeah, I've often wondered how old he's supposed to be. One the one hand, he's got grey in his hair. On the other hand, he's got no children yet (or at least none I've heard of) which really isn't how kings go about things. He also calls Ayrenn a "child" in the main quest on the island of Stirk, when they're all bickering. And I always thought: dude, she's probably older than you are. But then I don't actually know how old she's supposed to be either. Why did I never look these details up? I don't know. A bit of laziness, I guess, and not wanting to do out of game research for information I feel I should be able to find in game.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Any dust? Like take any "human dust" and call up any ancestor? Seems suspect to me.

It has to be the dust of the person you want to resurrect, of course, not just any dust! I can't just sweep up the lint beneath my desk and summon King Lysandus with it!

I think there was some belief at some time though that the remains of one person would include some traces of all their ancestors... But I really can't remember right now where that's from.

Still seems suspect! But that does remind me of a premise behind the Assassin's Creed games: that your ancestors' memories were somehow stored in your dna. So with the right future science tools, you could be captured and forced to relive your ancestors' memories and find out secrets for Evil Corp.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder if they think players are going to pay this much attention to an image that is around for a few seconds, and deliberately placed to be hard to see. I would think they know players pay attention to all sorts of details, but I guess you can't prepare for what, specifically will catch anyone's attention to this degree.

They didn't even take any measures to prevent people from stumbling across the sarcophagus before even starting the main quest, so, no, I don't think they expect the average player to be that curious.

Ok, so this time when I did the quest in the ruins where you retrieve the gift of death and Wormblood immediately resurrects himself, instead of knocking over the columns and leaving immediately, I jumped up onto the dais where Raz had Wormblood pinned down (with a dagger, by the way--literally pinned down) and got as close a look as I could at his face. It was entirely mask--not just over the eyes, but the lower part of the face, too. Like the House of Revelry masks, in a way. At least, it seemed like he had a porcelain, squared off chin. If not, he's got a much weirder chin than any Altmer npc I've ever seen. And his face did not look like that in the projection earlier in the quest chain. So I'm thinking the projection wasn't a fully rendered version of him.

Side note: I think the interaction they have us do with the pillars to knock them down is neat--we're actually ramming our bodies into the pillars, shoulder first, a couple times to get them to topple, rather than the standard "hit it a couple times with the weapon" visual we usually get. (Or the strange hand movements we tend to use when unlocking cages or untying ropes or anything that requires fine manual dexterity.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be very subtle for them to do, if that's what they meant. They don't usually do those kinds of changes for npcs during story quests. I think most we usually see is if we find someone in rags, and then later they're dressed in better gear. Generally they don't mess with their physical appearance during the course of a quest. I'm guessing some manner of oversight.

I also tend to think it was just an oversight, but if it was done on purpose, that would be something I'd judge positively.

Same here. He still fades in and out during the Li-Xal portion of the quest. Still teeth and eyeballs at some points. It's like they went too far with the "flickering image" slider. Or maybe it's the Writhing Wall effect. Apparently that thing fluctuates all the time, and the thin spots move around, and it makes teleportation impossible. (Can't teleport through the wall; can't go through the wall; so how are all the cultists getting from east to west?)

Also, in the very first quest, Farinor said something about the island of Solstice being riddled with ancient magics that interfere with portal magic--which is why they had to do that elaborate portal ritual with the anchors (that she then sabotaged). Now, since we know she's a liar, do we take that as true at all? I mean, they did have to do a special portal ritual, regardless of the sabotage (the Midconjurer does remark, when things start to go sideways, that "Gabrielle didn't do it this way," so it seems they had to go to some extra lengths to portal people in).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That seems like a pretty good estimate. I'm also not taking as much time between steps to confer with the other npcs, since I know they don't have a whole lot to add. There are also still quite a few people on the same parts of the quest I am, which cuts down on mob-killing time. So, yeah, between three and four hours is a good guess.

It's short, really. Even if we expect the second half of the questline to have the same length, that's not much for a whole story release.

It is short. I wonder if it's really half, or maybe more like a third. I don't really have a good sense of comparison with other chapters, since I don't ever just zoom through the main quest, even on replays. I wonder how long the Summerset main quest would take, for example, if doing that and only that.

Also, when they spoke of the Writhing Wall event, they did mention story quests, so I wonder if some of the main quest is in that portion, and then when the eastern half opens up, we get the rest. I guess we'll see.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I haven't heard of "dark romance" before. What is that? Is it vampire stuff? Or is it "oh, this guy is dark and dangerous and I must have him"? Because, honestly, that just sounds like regular romance.

It's about women swooning over creeps or something like that. There's no English wikipedia article about it so far, but the German one mentions that these novels usually start with a trigger warning and then the stories are about "toxic relationships, power imbalance, kidnappings, torture and murder", and the guy the female protagonist pursues (or is pursued by) is usually some horrendous person, like some organized crime boss. What's not to love about that, huh? Makes me wonder whether the safeness everywhere else leads to some people seeking an outlet for darker emotions in such stories.

Eh, not for me. I suppose people could be searching for such an outlet, for various reasons.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's why I called it a variation. They're not trying to change the "unappealing" aspects, but they are trying to change the person to more of what they wanted. Possibly because some of the things they thought were appealing didn't actually appeal that much once they got to know them better, or they thought the person would be extra better if only they would do X. You know: "He's great! He does A, B, and C! But I'd like it better if he did less of A and B, and added D--then he'd be perfect!" I think that kind of mindset stems from thinking couples have to like all the same things, and do all the same things together.

But sometimes it's completely contradictory. Being interested in someone who absolutely does not live the ordinary life, exactly for being unordinary like that, but then expecting that person to change to the exact opposite (with marriage, kids, 9-to-5 job and all that)... it just makes no sense? Yes, I know, I'm still making the mistake of expecting things to make sense somehow

I see it as they're intrigued by the unordinary, perhaps fascinated by it, but only to an extent, because what they really want is the ordinary, only just not with all the other ordinary people they know. They're trying to bring a little unordinary into the ordinary, basically.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I thought they did say that, but I haven't seen any outcomes changed.

Maybe in Part 2, I hope then.

Poor part 2 has a lot to uphold!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The only change I can immediately recall was in the prologue, where you question the cultist Merric left behind to explain things. You can get him an herb to help with the pain or not, depending on choices, but then that's also just the old "intimidate" tactic we've had in game for awhile dressed up as angry response, and it just eliminates one step of the quest, doesn't change the outcome. Oh, this time when I talked to the cultist after the invasion of Sunport, I chose the non-violent method of dealing with him and the ending of that is I agreed to smuggle him off the island rather than just beat him up to get information. But, again, it doesn't change the outcome or even any part of the quest steps and I'm sure I never actually end up smuggling him anywhere.

The way it is right now, is really not what we imagined, right? At least I had expected real differences in outcome.

I had, too. Perhaps I expected too much. Still, I'm glad they are trying it, and I hope they continue to iterate on it and make it more robust.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

A cultist, by the way, who told you to go ahead and kill him, he doesn't fear death, and so your "kind" response is to say: tell us what we want to know and we'll make sure you don't die. That's why I didn't choose it the first playthrough--didn't seem like a viable deal.

But we're supposed to be the good hero, so we aren't capable of imagining that some weird necromancer cultist would actually want to die, like, for real, and would not only say that to fake bravery. Or so.

After all we've seen? There shouldn't be anything beyond our imagining at this point. When you offer him the deal, he does say that while he's not afraid of dying, it's not exactly pleasant, and he'd just as soon not. Made me wonder: how many times has this khajiit died and been brought back? (Nine, probably, right? And then he remembered it had been nine, and so suddenly did fear dying.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I've often wondered how old he's supposed to be. One the one hand, he's got grey in his hair. On the other hand, he's got no children yet (or at least none I've heard of) which really isn't how kings go about things.

Leads to the questions who would become the heir if it remains like that? Maybe it's not like he didn't bother yet, but it's a medical issue or so.

In that case, I'd expect there to be some heir apparent hanging about the court. Or maybe it's his brother who will take over.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He also calls Ayrenn a "child" in the main quest on the island of Stirk, when they're all bickering. And I always thought: dude, she's probably older than you are. But then I don't actually know how old she's supposed to be either.

Ayrenn is a special case... or let's say probably a lore inconsistency. There's sources that state that she was born in 555, that would make her only 25 years old. Then again, Naemon is supposed to be her younger brother, and he's already married, while there's info that marriage ceremonies among Altmer nobles take... a long time. The next question is: Wasn't there some statement about how many years the ritualistic preparations for the coronation ceremony take? Also, I think there was some promo material when ESO released that stated Ayrenn was about 130 or so.

If I recall correctly, Naemon says something about spending ten years performing all the rituals and preparations for the coronation, and then suddenly Ayrenn shows back up. So I have to think the 130 age is more realistic.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Still seems suspect! But that does remind me of a premise behind the Assassin's Creed games: that your ancestors' memories were somehow stored in your dna. So with the right future science tools, you could be captured and forced to relive your ancestors' memories and find out secrets for Evil Corp.

I found that rather weird as a concept. And somehow I never enjoyed the backstory of those games much - from my point of view, they would have been better without that.

I did wonder why they needed the "ancestor's dna memory" part of it instead of just having you play as the assassin from the get-go. I didn't play those games myself, but I would sometimes watch my husband play, and I did like watching the cutscenes.

Syldras wrote: »

But, it reminds me of something else: Interestingly, there's research that dna isn't as immutable as people thought for a long time, but that it can change over the lifetime of a person, so certain events (like a famine, for example) would reflect in the dna (in the mentioned case that would be, for example, metabolic changes) and be transmitted to following generations.

That's quite interesting! I do wonder how severe those types of stressors would have to be before they had a meaningful impact on dna. Something changing over the lifetime of one person is different from the slower pace of general evolution.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, so this time when I did the quest in the ruins where you retrieve the gift of death and Wormblood immediately resurrects himself, instead of knocking over the columns and leaving immediately, I jumped up onto the dais where Raz had Wormblood pinned down (with a dagger, by the way--literally pinned down) and got as close a look as I could at his face.

With a dagger? Interesting they put that much effort in that animation if you only see very little of in anyway - not only since you're supposed to act fast, but also from the usual point of view you'd have on that scene.

It wasn't easy to get up on that dais; I thought at first there was an invisible wall keeping me on the lower level, but enough pressing of the spacebar eventually got me up there. At least in this case I had time to get a really good angle, unlike with the projection in the Sunport quest. I was surprised to see the dagger, and also Wormblood was writhing around much more actively than I had noticed before.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It was entirely mask--not just over the eyes, but the lower part of the face, too. Like the House of Revelry masks, in a way. At least, it seemed like he had a porcelain, squared off chin. If not, he's got a much weirder chin than any Altmer npc I've ever seen. And his face did not look like that in the projection earlier in the quest chain. So I'm thinking the projection wasn't a fully rendered version of him.

It's a bit strange he's wearing a mask, right? I mean, it too obviously hints at some kind of "dramatic reveal" later - it feels constructed somehow. Or why would he wear one, what purpose would that serve? Other high-ranked Worm Cultists don't wear one usually.

I want to correct myself. I said House of Revelry, but I meant House of Reveries. The one in Summerset with the anonymous actors.

I have wondered why he masks up, too. Especially a full face mask like this one. I think later, when we talk to him via magic, he's only wearing one over his eyes. I'll report back on that when I get to that part. I thought I'd get to it today, but I actually haven't had time to log in to the game yet today.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Side note: I think the interaction they have us do with the pillars to knock them down is neat--we're actually ramming our bodies into the pillars, shoulder first, a couple times to get them to topple, rather than the standard "hit it a couple times with the weapon" visual we usually get. (Or the strange hand movements we tend to use when unlocking cages or untying ropes or anything that requires fine manual dexterity.)

But is that even realistic? For, let's say... a tiny Bosmer?

Oh, sure, now you want realism! Yeah, it's completely unrealistic, and when I was watching my guy do it, I was thinking: he's going to dislocate a shoulder! But I still like the animation and I think it's nice they went to the trouble of making it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Same here. He still fades in and out during the Li-Xal portion of the quest. Still teeth and eyeballs at some points. It's like they went too far with the "flickering image" slider. Or maybe it's the Writhing Wall effect. Apparently that thing fluctuates all the time, and the thin spots move around, and it makes teleportation impossible. (Can't teleport through the wall; can't go through the wall; so how are all the cultists getting from east to west?)

Have you forgotten about Admiral Wormblood's Worm Cult Fleet already?

You know, I did! But, in my defense, if we could just sail around to the eastern half of the island, why haven't we done it already?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, in the very first quest, Farinor said something about the island of Solstice being riddled with ancient magics that interfere with portal magic--which is why they had to do that elaborate portal ritual with the anchors (that she then sabotaged). Now, since we know she's a liar, do we take that as true at all? I mean, they did have to do a special portal ritual, regardless of the sabotage (the Midconjurer does remark, when things start to go sideways, that "Gabrielle didn't do it this way," so it seems they had to go to some extra lengths to portal people in).

Actually this makes the fast transportation of Mannimarco's sarcophagus at the end of the story even stranger.

I was thinking the same thing when Vanny told me that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is short. I wonder if it's really half, or maybe more like a third.

By the size of the map and the map markers we already saw, like the "remarkable locations" (or whatever they're called), I think the number of locations will be the same on the other side. Whether the quests might be longer or whether there might be more quests...?

I also wondered whether there might be some epilogue again, but then, it's a continuous story and not actually two different parts and locations this time, in a way. You won't ever be able to play the second part before the first one, so maybe they think there's no need for a conclusion to end the whole experience.

Yeah, I'm expecting the eastern half to be roughly the same size and scope as the western half; it was just that mention of story quests in the Writhing Wall event that made me think there might be more to main quest there, so it wouldn't be half and half, more like a third, a third, and a third. Ha, that's a really clumsy way of phrasing it, but I'm not going to edit it to something better. Too tired!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, when they spoke of the Writhing Wall event, they did mention story quests, so I wonder if some of the main quest is in that portion, and then when the eastern half opens up, we get the rest. I guess we'll see.

Who knows. Maybe I should be spying on the PTS forum

I'm too scared of spoilers to go there.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I see it as they're intrigued by the unordinary, perhaps fascinated by it, but only to an extent, because what they really want is the ordinary, only just not with all the other ordinary people they know. They're trying to bring a little unordinary into the ordinary, basically.

But can't they just do that while leaving me alone?

Clearly not!

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I had, too. Perhaps I expected too much. Still, I'm glad they are trying it, and I hope they continue to iterate on it and make it more robust.

Yes. I truly hope they read some of our feedback. In particular maybe about dialogue choices we didn't find fitting at all (yes, I'm still a little astonished about how the "flirting" looked like), and about situations where we wished we had gotten more choices, but there were none.

Yes, the system can definitely use some polish. I'm sure they have read the feedback; whether they make any changes as a result of it is a different matter.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In that case, I'd expect there to be some heir apparent hanging about the court. Or maybe it's his brother who will take over.

Luckily, Mannimarco has no such problems, he can just clone himself a Wormblood.

Right? Because as far as we know, that's what he did. We never did learn anything more about where Wormblood came from, and that's a shame.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I did wonder why they needed the "ancestor's dna memory" part of it instead of just having you play as the assassin from the get-go. I didn't play those games myself, but I would sometimes watch my husband play, and I did like watching the cutscenes.

It's a good question. I heard some speculations but then I'm not sure how plausible they were. Mostly about the player being supposed to be a little disengaged about the whole story instead of being immersed, because at that time where was a bit of a moral panic going on about gamers possibly not being able to tell apart reality and fiction anymore if the immersion is too perfect... I don't know, really. Or maybe they actually had a sci-fi background story they wanted to tell. Although I really never cared much for it and I know that I wasn't the only one who mostly ignored that part.

Huh, well, I never heard anything about the why of it, and since I wasn't playing the games myself I didn't pay it much heed. I think the plot got a fairly convoluted by the end, and I think these days the games dispense with the 'ancestor dna' mechanic completely. Of course, I could be mistaken. There are a lot of them, and I haven't played them.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It wasn't easy to get up on that dais; I thought at first there was an invisible wall keeping me on the lower level, but enough pressing of the spacebar eventually got me up there. At least in this case I had time to get a really good angle, unlike with the projection in the Sunport quest. I was surprised to see the dagger, and also Wormblood was writhing around much more actively than I had noticed before.

All I can remember is that I foud the animation rather strange looking. How do you even keep someone down with a dagger? I mean, wouldn't you either stab the person and kill them in the process, or not? Not sure how repeated motions like the ones we saw make sense in that situation.

What's a dagger through the shoulder to someone who can insta-rez? I don't think the repeated motions make a lot of sense when you stop and gaze at them for awhile, but we really aren't meant to do that. I mean, the first time I did the quest, I busted columns and hustled out of there, so the physical altercation between Raz and Wormblood was very short. It wasn't until you posted screenshots of your tourist photos that I thought about lingering to take a look around.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have wondered why he masks up, too. Especially a full face mask like this one. I think later, when we talk to him via magic, he's only wearing one over his eyes. I'll report back on that when I get to that part. I thought I'd get to it today, but I actually haven't had time to log in to the game yet today.

Nah, I actually think he always wears that one. I've never seen his lips move so far. Well, okay, how often have I seen him closely enough anyway...

Did his lips not move when we spoke to him via projection? I never did get into the game yesterday, so I've still got that part upcoming.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, sure, now you want realism! Yeah, it's completely unrealistic, and when I was watching my guy do it, I was thinking: he's going to dislocate a shoulder! But I still like the animation and I think it's nice they went to the trouble of making it.

Realism is important! Otherwise our character could have just sneezed the columns over

More likely we would've been crushed by falling masonry before we could reach the door. As to how Raz got out when it's later stated that we buried Wormblood under rubble, I don't know. Plus, we know Wormblood makes it out unscathed. That's really some remarkable ability he's got with the instant rez and never getting a scratch on him.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, I did! But, in my defense, if we could just sail around to the eastern half of the island, why haven't we done it already?

Boat-eating slaughterfish.

But wouldn't they also attack Admiral Wormblood's ships? So then how are the cultists getting to the western side? Or moving Mannimarco's sarcophagus around? Oh, we'll probably find out the cultists are somehow attuned to the Writhing Wall and can just pass right through it. Or that the thing about portals was all faulty conjecture on Vanny's part.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was thinking the same thing when Vanny told me that.

So how exactly was the sarcophagus transported? Unrelated question: Can you catapult things into a daedric realm?

If there's an open portal, you probably can fling things in via catapult, but then we're back at the portal problem. I guess Wormblood's just super great with portal magic, like Nahlia in the scribing questline. So the portal-complicating island and the portal-blocking wall are as nothing to him.

"Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I'm expecting the eastern half to be roughly the same size and scope as the western half; it was just that mention of story quests in the Writhing Wall event that made me think there might be more to main quest there, so it wouldn't be half and half, more like a third, a third, and a third. Ha, that's a really clumsy way of phrasing it, but I'm not going to edit it to something better. Too tired!
I'm too scared of spoilers to go there.

I'm not sure yet whether to look or not. If at all, then later today.

Let me know if you find out anything that isn't spoilery. Also, I don't think the entire event is available for testing yet. I think they said just the first two phases would be there.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, the system can definitely use some polish. I'm sure they have read the feedback; whether they make any changes as a result of it is a different matter.

Even if the big final outcome of a chapter story has to be the same for everyone, they could at least offer two different paths inbetween, or maybe some quests in the middle being different depending on a choice you made in an earlier quest.

That would be nice, and maybe they can work on adding things like that down the line.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right? Because as far as we know, that's what he did. We never did learn anything more about where Wormblood came from, and that's a shame.

It's a pity there weren't even any earlier lore mentions of him, but he just suddenly showed up now and then disappeared again, in a very constructed-feeling way, with an obvious singular purpose. They could have given Mannimarco a few advisors or something like that already in early writing, just in case one of them might be needed in a later story.

True, but really Mannimarco comes across as a lone wizard plotting in his tower. Maybe he doesn't trust advisors, because he knows how shifty he was as an advisor. No idea why he trusted Wormblood as much as he apparently did.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What's a dagger through the shoulder to someone who can insta-rez?

In any way, you can't really pin anyone down by doing that. I generally didn't find it that believable that Raz would be able to hold him down, weakened or not. It didn't even look like he was struggling much.

Cat reflexes and cat strength!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Did his lips not move when we spoke to him via projection? I never did get into the game yesterday, so I've still got that part upcoming.

I think they didn't.

You're correct. I did that part of the quest this morning, and the full face mask is there. It's funny how my memory had it different--basically substituted moving lips for the mask. Ah, as a writing teacher of mine once said, all memory is fiction.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, we'll probably find out the cultists are somehow attuned to the Writhing Wall and can just pass right through it.

It's also contradicting some side quest dialogues, by the way. There are npcs mentioning daedric sightings coming from the other side of the island. And a certain bantam chicken also managed to slip through, obviously.

When we negotiate for exchanging the gift of death for Vanny, Wormblood does say his people can bring us through the Wall, so seems the wall is only impenetrable to the Stirk Fellowship.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess Wormblood's just super great with portal magic, like Nahlia in the scribing questline.

Even better than Vanny?

Yes, because he has a power-up in the form of Mor Naril (according to a ghost in a crypt). I had forgotten about that--the secret source of power Wormblood has access to. That is probably how he's doing all these things with portals and daedric realms.

Another thing the ghost said, was that Mor Naril is only partially working, and that the gift of death could fully wake it. So was Wormblood going to use the gift of death to both bring back Mannimarco and awaken the full power of Mor Naril? It's only because it was used in the Colored Rooms that it turned into a light of Meridia (or turned back into?). So if we hadn't pulled him into the Colored Rooms, and he had used the gift, could it really have done double duty like that?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Let me know if you find out anything that isn't spoilery. Also, I don't think the entire event is available for testing yet. I think they said just the first two phases would be there.

I only took a short look so far, but there seem to be crafting quests somehow related to enlarging those Fellowship camps that we already saw at some locations on the island. Several even, basically daily quests. So right now I guess it's basically crafting quests for the camps and then having enemies spawn at the Wall or something like that. But I'm not entirely sure. Didn't sound like it had much lore or story to it so far, I'd say.

I expected daily quests, but since in the stream they did mention story quests, I got my hopes up. Maybe when they said story quests they were just referring to the daily quests. Sometimes those have story in them.