Official Discussion Thread for "Meet the Character—Wormblood"

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

She wanted to lead the fair her way, but does she really say why? Or what about Sanguine's way she disagreed with?

No, not at all. Maybe a journal giving insight to her thoughts and the reasoning behind her behaviour would have helped. Anything deeper, really, may it be related to her beginning to worship a different Daedric Prince or not.

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe it could have worked if they'd delved more into the power struggle or some behind the scenes bickering that goes on among the powerful daedra in Sanguine's realm. But instead all we got was a coy goat and a carboard antagonist.

I wasn't a big fan of overly obvious goat either.

metheglyn wrote: »

Doesn't really seem like all that much thought was put into it, then. I didn't realize Dibella and Zenithar were up there with the Three Queens. I thought the Dibella cultists said they had a small shrine in the city, but to me that seemed like something they had set up themselves, not something that was part of the main chapel.

Yeah, right? Their complaint makes no sense considering their shrine is on the main altar next to the shrines for the Three Queens - on the same level, basically. How much more do they expect?

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe Azura has the largest shrine because she's been part of their worship practices the longest? Or she's somehow the most important?

Then usually the cathedral would be named after her alone, no? At least that's what we see in history: An ancient temple might have housed shrines for different deities, but it was usually named after the main deity (or deities) worshipped there, if there was some kind of hierarchy. No matter if we look at Ancient Egypt or the big ancient temple cities that we only know as ruins today in South East Asia.

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering the island's history, along with that of Clan Corelanya, it really doesn't make sense to have such a standard chapel in Sunport. I could see that they wouldn't necessarily enforce their religious views on everyone, having experienced religious intolerance in their history, but to let everyone else's deities have equal status in their chapel?

Not just equal status, actually, but strangely the shrines to the Divines (which is not the native belief of this island, but a foreign one - that's another fact to keep in mind), are completely overrepresented in that temple in quantity alone. There are these 3 shrines to the Princes, two of them just tiny statuettes, and then you have 8(!) shrines for all Divines... 6 of them placed singularly on the sides, in a quite representative way.

I wish it would be more akin to how it's been in the real world. We have enough examples from history one can look into, ancient temples and such, including cases where different deities were worshipped or where there were changes of the main deity venerated at one location, sometimes even several times.

metheglyn wrote: »

Poor Mannimarco, destined to disappoint!

You know, maybe taking Daggerfall grandpa Mannimarco to a gentlemen's outfitter in Shimmerene would have saved him from his fate in Oblivion: barefoot in a black nightshirt.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Doesn't really seem like all that much thought was put into it, then. I didn't realize Dibella and Zenithar were up there with the Three Queens. I thought the Dibella cultists said they had a small shrine in the city, but to me that seemed like something they had set up themselves, not something that was part of the main chapel.

Yeah, right? Their complaint makes no sense considering their shrine is on the main altar next to the shrines for the Three Queens - on the same level, basically. How much more do they expect?

Well, based on their leader's behavior, they probably wouldn't be happy unless Dibella were the only shrine in the chapel.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe Azura has the largest shrine because she's been part of their worship practices the longest? Or she's somehow the most important?

Then usually the cathedral would be named after her alone, no? At least that's what we see in history: An ancient temple might have housed shrines for different deities, but it was usually named after the main deity (or deities) worshipped there, if there was some kind of hierarchy. No matter if we look at Ancient Egypt or the big ancient temple cities that we only know as ruins today in South East Asia.

I would say not if they claim to venerate all three. They never reference them separately, but always say "The Three Queens." So they might feel she's the most important of the three, but wouldn't want to exclude the other two in any official capacity. But, honestly, the relative size of the statues probably means nothing more than those are the objects they had on hand. People have pointed out in other threads the reused art assets, and this might be an example of that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering the island's history, along with that of Clan Corelanya, it really doesn't make sense to have such a standard chapel in Sunport. I could see that they wouldn't necessarily enforce their religious views on everyone, having experienced religious intolerance in their history, but to let everyone else's deities have equal status in their chapel?

Not just equal status, actually, but strangely the shrines to the Divines (which is not the native belief of this island, but a foreign one - that's another fact to keep in mind), are completely overrepresented in that temple in quantity alone. There are these 3 shrines to the Princes, two of them just tiny statuettes, and then you have 8(!) shrines for all Divines... 6 of them placed singularly on the sides, in a quite representative way.

I wish it would be more akin to how it's been in the real world. We have enough examples from history one can look into, ancient temples and such, including cases where different deities were worshipped or where there were changes of the main deity venerated at one location, sometimes even several times.

I, too, wish they had put more care into designing this chapel to reflect the different religious views of the island's inhabitants. I remember in Southern Elsweyr when they had that quest about the cantors, and the lore about painting the wall: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chiaroscuro_Crossroads

That was an interesting look into an aspect of Khajiit religion we hadn't had before. I know there was no quest associated with the chapel in Sunport, but the design could have conveyed a lot, too, had they wanted to go that route.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Poor Mannimarco, destined to disappoint!

You know, maybe taking Daggerfall grandpa Mannimarco to a gentlemen's outfitter in Shimmerene would have saved him from his fate in Oblivion: barefoot in a black nightshirt.

Could you even get to Shimmerene in that game?

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, based on their leader's behavior, they probably wouldn't be happy unless Dibella were the only shrine in the chapel.

I still think it's a pity that we didn't get different dialogue options to comment on her behavior. I am not assuming this was intentional, but if you can comment on different things, and then you suddenly can't in one specific situation, it may to some people evoke the feeling like there's some message behind that - and that's also something one needs to consider in writing and quest design, from my point of view (to avoid people seeing a message where there isn't one).

metheglyn wrote: »

I would say not if they claim to venerate all three. They never reference them separately, but always say "The Three Queens." So they might feel she's the most important of the three, but wouldn't want to exclude the other two in any official capacity. But, honestly, the relative size of the statues probably means nothing more than those are the objects they had on hand. People have pointed out in other threads the reused art assets, and this might be an example of that.

I honestly thought the same, but there is actually a huge depiction of Meridia - at the Temple of Kilkreath in Western Skyrim. Makes me wonder why they didn't just shrink that down to a size about similar to Azura's symbol? And for Nocturnal, we also have a statue in Blackwood (from a shrine in the wilderness, the statue is about life-size, slightly bigger) that they could have used. I would have understood if we only had the small statuettes - enlarging them would have resulted in the statue lacking detail - , but no, we actually do have bigger statues already in the game.

metheglyn wrote: »

I, too, wish they had put more care into designing this chapel to reflect the different religious views of the island's inhabitants. I remember in Southern Elsweyr when they had that quest about the cantors, and the lore about painting the wall: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chiaroscuro_Crossroads
That was an interesting look into an aspect of Khajiit religion we hadn't had before. I know there was no quest associated with the chapel in Sunport, but the design could have conveyed a lot, too, had they wanted to go that route.

I remember that quest and that I enjoyed it back then. It's generally not that much new lore this time, somehow. Not on places, not on Mannimarco or Wormblood, I wonder whether we'll ever learn how the Wall might relate to the Dunmer tradition of Ghostfences - or not? Or maybe that's another aspect that will never be clarified. Would be a pity.

metheglyn wrote: »

Could you even get to Shimmerene in that game?

Actually not, but it wouldn't be appropriate to put the Necromancer King into some potato sack from Wayrest

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, based on their leader's behavior, they probably wouldn't be happy unless Dibella were the only shrine in the chapel.

I still think it's a pity that we didn't get different dialogue options to comment on her behavior. I am not assuming this was intentional, but if you can comment on different things, and then you suddenly can't in one specific situation, it may to some people evoke the feeling like there's some message behind that - and that's also something one needs to consider in writing and quest design, from my point of view (to avoid people seeing a message where there isn't one).

Yeah, there are plenty of places where I would like more dialogue options, going all the way back to the base game main quest. But I see what you're saying, how the conversation options we do get might seem leading. You could always roleplay it that you're agreeing with the Dibellans, or at any rate not disagreeing, just because you want out of the conversation as quickly as possible and don't want to give her a reason to start preaching at you.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would say not if they claim to venerate all three. They never reference them separately, but always say "The Three Queens." So they might feel she's the most important of the three, but wouldn't want to exclude the other two in any official capacity. But, honestly, the relative size of the statues probably means nothing more than those are the objects they had on hand. People have pointed out in other threads the reused art assets, and this might be an example of that.

I honestly thought the same, but there is actually a huge depiction of Meridia - at the Temple of Kilkreath in Western Skyrim. Makes me wonder why they didn't just shrink that down to a size about similar to Azura's symbol? And for Nocturnal, we also have a statue in Blackwood (from a shrine in the wilderness, the statue is about life-size, slightly bigger) that they could have used. I would have understood if we only had the small statuettes - enlarging them would have resulted in the statue lacking detail - , but no, we actually do have bigger statues already in the game.

If Azura has a symbol, why do the other two have statuettes? I thought all the Daedric Princes had symbols. Truly, the chapel's design is destined to remain a mystery. Of course, we also have no idea what sort of time or budget constraints they were under.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I, too, wish they had put more care into designing this chapel to reflect the different religious views of the island's inhabitants. I remember in Southern Elsweyr when they had that quest about the cantors, and the lore about painting the wall: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chiaroscuro_Crossroads
That was an interesting look into an aspect of Khajiit religion we hadn't had before. I know there was no quest associated with the chapel in Sunport, but the design could have conveyed a lot, too, had they wanted to go that route.

I remember that quest and that I enjoyed it back then. It's generally not that much new lore this time, somehow. Not on places, not on Mannimarco or Wormblood, I wonder whether we'll ever learn how the Wall might relate to the Dunmer tradition of Ghostfences - or not? Or maybe that's another aspect that will never be clarified. Would be a pity.

In the loremaster's archive thread, someone did ask a question about whether the Writhing Wall was inspired by the Dunmer tradition of Ghostfences. Maybe we'll get an answer. I agree that new lore seemed a bit lacking this time around. I would have thought, for an island shrouded in mystery, there would have been more, not less.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Could you even get to Shimmerene in that game?

Actually not, but it wouldn't be appropriate to put the Necromancer King into some potato sack from Wayrest

What about a flour sack, then? Those aren't as coarse.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

If Azura has a symbol, why do the other two have statuettes? I thought all the Daedric Princes had symbols. Truly, the chapel's design is destined to remain a mystery. Of course, we also have no idea what sort of time or budget constraints they were under.

If I had been assigned to design that place, at least for the main altar, I would have just resized the big statues we already had of the Three Queens, put them next to each other, sorted them chronologically as dawn - dusk - night (since we know that the times of day are attributed to them), well, and then put some tropical flowers around them, and some pedestals for offerings (at best it should be things that fit their specific attributes). And then I might have designed a small alcove for one or a few (but not all) Aedra somewhere on one side (number shouldn't be higher than for the Daedric Princes), and another one related to Argonian deities on the other. Well, if we kept the overall design more or less. If the task would be to design a place of worship for three Daedric Princes from scratch (or even more than three, considering the Princes worshipped changed over the centuries)... I would have come up with something entirely different. Anyway, it's the way it is - I was just wondering what I would have done with the base premise.

metheglyn wrote: »

In the loremaster's archive thread, someone did ask a question about whether the Writhing Wall was inspired by the Dunmer tradition of Ghostfences. Maybe we'll get an answer. I agree that new lore seemed a bit lacking this time around. I would have thought, for an island shrouded in mystery, there would have been more, not less.

Yeah, I saw that question (I also read other people's contributions and didn't just pester the pitiful prince with my own, you know? ), I'd just prefer to find important lore info directly in game. Of course, answering our questions through a news article is a very friendly offer, and I do appreciate that very much, I just wonder how many people might miss that then, when it's not directly in game. Because people who start playing ESO much later will most probably not read old news articles on the website, and if they don't search the internet for it, they'll just miss out on that info.

metheglyn wrote: »

What about a flour sack, then? Those aren't as coarse.

You can't put the elderly into flour sacks! Especially not elderly Altmer.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If Azura has a symbol, why do the other two have statuettes? I thought all the Daedric Princes had symbols. Truly, the chapel's design is destined to remain a mystery. Of course, we also have no idea what sort of time or budget constraints they were under.

If I had been assigned to design that place, at least for the main altar, I would have just resized the big statues we already had of the Three Queens, put them next to each other, sorted them chronologically as dawn - dusk - night (since we know that the times of day are attributed to them), well, and then put some tropical flowers around them, and some pedestals for offerings (at best it should be things that fit their specific attributes). And then I might have designed a small alcove for one or a few (but not all) Aedra somewhere on one side (number shouldn't be higher than for the Daedric Princes), and another one related to Argonian deities on the other. Well, if we kept the overall design more or less. If the task would be to design a place of worship for three Daedric Princes from scratch (or even more than three, considering the Princes worshipped changed over the centuries)... I would have come up with something entirely different. Anyway, it's the way it is - I was just wondering what I would have done with the base premise.

I do like your dream design, but I have a minor question. You said you would have placed the statues chronologically, but isn't Azura the lady of dawn and dusk? I know Nocturnal would fit night, and Meridia is known as the Lady of Light, so full day? But if Azura represents the in-between times (dawn and dusk), maybe that's why her symbol is bigger. Anyway, my question is: what order do you put them in then? Azura, Meridia, Nocturnal?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In the loremaster's archive thread, someone did ask a question about whether the Writhing Wall was inspired by the Dunmer tradition of Ghostfences. Maybe we'll get an answer. I agree that new lore seemed a bit lacking this time around. I would have thought, for an island shrouded in mystery, there would have been more, not less.

Yeah, I saw that question (I also read other people's contributions and didn't just pester the pitiful prince with my own, you know? ), I'd just prefer to find important lore info directly in game. Of course, answering our questions through a news article is a very friendly offer, and I do appreciate that very much, I just wonder how many people might miss that then, when it's not directly in game. Because people who start playing ESO much later will most probably not read old news articles on the website, and if they don't search the internet for it, they'll just miss out on that info.

I'd prefer to find it in game, too. I mentioned it just to remind you we might get an answer to that particular question. I would think a lot of this lore would get missed if it isn't archived somewhere like UESP. Even then, I don't know how often people go to sites outside of game to read up on the lore.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What about a flour sack, then? Those aren't as coarse.

You can't put the elderly into flour sacks! Especially not elderly Altmer.

Well, you're the expert: what kind of sack can you put them in?

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

I do like your dream design, but I have a minor question. You said you would have placed the statues chronologically, but isn't Azura the lady of dawn and dusk? I know Nocturnal would fit night, and Meridia is known as the Lady of Light, so full day? But if Azura represents the in-between times (dawn and dusk), maybe that's why her symbol is bigger. Anyway, my question is: what order do you put them in then? Azura, Meridia, Nocturnal?

That was me writing strange things at 5.30 a.m. again Well, since Azura represents both dawn and dusk, it would make sense to put her statue in the middle - as a divider between day and night (because that's true for both dusk and dawn). I personally wouldn't make it bigger than the other two, though. And most of all I wouldn't make any of the shrines for the Three Queens smaller than the Aedric shrines in the same room. It should still remain clear that they are the deities the place is mainly dedicated to.

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd prefer to find it in game, too. I mentioned it just to remind you we might get an answer to that particular question. I would think a lot of this lore would get missed if it isn't archived somewhere like UESP. Even then, I don't know how often people go to sites outside of game to read up on the lore.

I don't know, of course, but I personally wouldn't rely on people looking up things about a game on the internet, especially if it's more of a "side" thing that's not 100% necessary to play the game (no matter how much I personally enjoy TES lore, I think less people look up lore topics than, let's say, builds, tactics of all kinds, solutions to puzzles or such things - basically things you need to succeed).

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, you're the expert: what kind of sack can you put them in?

Well, I usually don't keep them in sacks, I just use those for transportation. What a horrible fate that would be! Being kept in a sack for months and years. For Altmer it would certainly be even more detrimental.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do like your dream design, but I have a minor question. You said you would have placed the statues chronologically, but isn't Azura the lady of dawn and dusk? I know Nocturnal would fit night, and Meridia is known as the Lady of Light, so full day? But if Azura represents the in-between times (dawn and dusk), maybe that's why her symbol is bigger. Anyway, my question is: what order do you put them in then? Azura, Meridia, Nocturnal?

That was me writing strange things at 5.30 a.m. again Well, since Azura represents both dawn and dusk, it would make sense to put her statue in the middle - as a divider between day and night (because that's true for both dusk and dawn). I personally wouldn't make it bigger than the other two, though. And most of all I wouldn't make any of the shrines for the Three Queens smaller than the Aedric shrines in the same room. It should still remain clear that they are the deities the place is mainly dedicated to.

Yes, that does make sense. I agree that her symbol shouldn't be bigger; I just keep searching for logical lore reasons why it might be.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd prefer to find it in game, too. I mentioned it just to remind you we might get an answer to that particular question. I would think a lot of this lore would get missed if it isn't archived somewhere like UESP. Even then, I don't know how often people go to sites outside of game to read up on the lore.

I don't know, of course, but I personally wouldn't rely on people looking up things about a game on the internet, especially if it's more of a "side" thing that's not 100% necessary to play the game (no matter how much I personally enjoy TES lore, I think less people look up lore topics than, let's say, builds, tactics of all kinds, solutions to puzzles or such things - basically things you need to succeed).

Yeah, when it comes to out of game research, I'm sure the majority of it is on builds and where to find the drops you want, as well as answers to quest issues. That's why I like the lore to show up in the game, so everyone can read about it. I do really like the Eidetic Memory system they have (though it's not organized how I would do it!). But some of the lore articles double as marketing, so there's little to no chance they would be in-game only.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, you're the expert: what kind of sack can you put them in?

Well, I usually don't keep them in sacks, I just use those for transportation. What a horrible fate that would be! Being kept in a sack for months and years. For Altmer it would certainly be even more detrimental.

Oh, I thought we were talking about using the sacks as garments. You know, putting him in a flour sack garment because a potato sack garment would be too rough. My mistake! Not that I object, particularly, to you keeping Mannimarco in a sack of some sort.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, that does make sense. I agree that her symbol shouldn't be bigger; I just keep searching for logical lore reasons why it might be.

Whenever I write something weird (well, weirder than usual), just feel free to tell me. I might have been unconcentrated, too tired, or distracted (And there are many things that might distract me here, such as owls, bats, or annoying neighbors; Did you know that long-eared owls can emit hooting sounds continuously for more than 9 hours? Well, I didn't know either).

metheglyn wrote: »

I do really like the Eidetic Memory system they have (though it's not organized how I would do it!).

I also very much appreciate that they gave us this system. Not sure how many people use it, or how often the average player wants to re-read something, but it does show care for the lore and the people interested in it.

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I thought we were talking about using the sacks as garments. You know, putting him in a flour sack garment because a potato sack garment would be too rough. My mistake! Not that I object, particularly, to you keeping Mannimarco in a sack of some sort.

He's too pretty glorious important to be kept in a sack! It's... below his status. I'd rather put him in a glass coffin or so, at least for those times when he, well, is in a certain state where he's rather limited in his mobility. Very much so. You know, between all those resurrections.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, that does make sense. I agree that her symbol shouldn't be bigger; I just keep searching for logical lore reasons why it might be.

Whenever I write something weird (well, weirder than usual), just feel free to tell me. I might have been unconcentrated, too tired, or distracted (And there are many things that might distract me here, such as owls, bats, or annoying neighbors; Did you know that long-eared owls can emit hooting sounds continuously for more than 9 hours? Well, I didn't know either).

Nine hours of hooting? That's a very vocal bird! And being an owl, it's likely done at night.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do really like the Eidetic Memory system they have (though it's not organized how I would do it!).

I also very much appreciate that they gave us this system. Not sure how many people use it, or how often the average player wants to re-read something, but it does show care for the lore and the people interested in it.

I wouldn't say I use it often, but it does come in handy for getting another look at some of those books you can't get through in one sitting because of external factors--like bandits or daedra.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I thought we were talking about using the sacks as garments. You know, putting him in a flour sack garment because a potato sack garment would be too rough. My mistake! Not that I object, particularly, to you keeping Mannimarco in a sack of some sort.

He's too pretty glorious important to be kept in a sack! It's... below his status. I'd rather put him in a glass coffin or so, at least for those times when he, well, is in a certain state where he's rather limited in his mobility. Very much so. You know, between all those resurrections.

Sure, got to keep your corpses someplace appropriate. But why glass? If he's between resurrections, you don't need to keep that close an eye on him.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Nine hours of hooting? That's a very vocal bird! And being an owl, it's likely done at night.

It usually begins at around 8 pm and continues until dawn (which is around 5 am right now). It's funny actually, when I moved back to this place I thought it's a pity you see less animals now than back in my childhood - no snakes, no salamanders, even hares are rare now. But I never saw or heard owls back then, and the bats I saw lately were also a surprise (one morning there was even a whole swarm of them). Strangely, when I still lived next to a forest and nature reserve, I never saw any owls, and bats were also rather rarely seen.

metheglyn wrote: »

I wouldn't say I use it often, but it does come in handy for getting another look at some of those books you can't get through in one sitting because of external factors--like bandits or daedra.

I think I just generally like that they showed care for the lore when implementing that system. Lately, I found it a little sad that some quest characters basically just repeat things you were supposed to read in a lorebook (as part of the quest) right before that dialogue - because it feels like they don't expect people to read the thing anyway. Otherwise why would you have to repeat it all a second time (without even getting new extra info)? Or is that done with the intention to be "user friendly"? Then I think more can be expected of the player; it's an rpg with lots of lore and texts are one central part of the whole world, then I think the players can be expected to read a lore book once in a while for quest progression. Also, it's usually not the longest lorebooks either; it's not like they expect players to read the whole Lessons of Vivec or Truth in Sequence to continue questing.

metheglyn wrote: »

Sure, got to keep your corpses someplace appropriate. But why glass? If he's between resurrections, you don't need to keep that close an eye on him.

Because he's a Princess! And then also probably a tourist attraction. Well, better safe than sorry! Also it would prevent questions like the ones we got because of his sarcophagus, like what state his body is in currently. With a glass coffin, it would be clear whether he's a skeleton, a dried up mummy, a pile of ash, or well-preserved with that "a little pale, but almost alive-looking" look.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wouldn't say I use it often, but it does come in handy for getting another look at some of those books you can't get through in one sitting because of external factors--like bandits or daedra.

I think I just generally like that they showed care for the lore when implementing that system. Lately, I found it a little sad that some quest characters basically just repeat things you were supposed to read in a lorebook (as part of the quest) right before that dialogue - because it feels like they don't expect people to read the thing anyway. Otherwise why would you have to repeat it all a second time (without even getting new extra info)? Or is that done with the intention to be "user friendly"? Then I think more can be expected of the player; it's an rpg with lots of lore and texts are one central part of the whole world, then I think the players can be expected to read a lore book once in a while for quest progression. Also, it's usually not the longest lorebooks either; it's not like they expect players to read the whole Lessons of Vivec or Truth in Sequence to continue questing.

Do they include many books as part of quests any more? I know in Solstice some of the information they told me I already knew because I had read a bunch of books and letters and stuff before I happened upon the quests, but I don't recall many books being part of the quest itself.

As to the matter of whether or not players read the books, regardless of whether they're part of quests or not, I don't know. Some people might click them when they come across them just to get them into their lore library, and then read them later. Do many read in the moment? Impossible for me to know, but I rarely see people standing still for many moments at a time. I would guess if the information is something ZOS really wants us to know about the quest/lore/story, they aren't going to chance us reading it elsewhere, and so it will show up in quest dialogues even if there's written material for it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sure, got to keep your corpses someplace appropriate. But why glass? If he's between resurrections, you don't need to keep that close an eye on him.

Because he's a Princess! And then also probably a tourist attraction. Well, better safe than sorry! Also it would prevent questions like the ones we got because of his sarcophagus, like what state his body is in currently. With a glass coffin, it would be clear whether he's a skeleton, a dried up mummy, a pile of ash, or well-preserved with that "a little pale, but almost alive-looking" look.

Considering a skilled necromancer can just magic a corpse back to the appearance of health and vigor, I don't see why it matters much if you can immediately tell what state the body's in. However, if you are going to charge people to have a look at it, glass would be the ideal material.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Do they include many books as part of quests any more? I know in Solstice some of the information they told me I already knew because I had read a bunch of books and letters and stuff before I happened upon the quests, but I don't recall many books being part of the quest itself.

It has become rarer.

metheglyn wrote: »

As to the matter of whether or not players read the books, regardless of whether they're part of quests or not, I don't know. Some people might click them when they come across them just to get them into their lore library, and then read them later. Do many read in the moment? Impossible for me to know, but I rarely see people standing still for many moments at a time.

If we go by that, I'd have to doubt many people listen to or read anything at all, since even with dialogues, I often see people continue their running after not even a second. Hard so say how many people truly don't care at all, of how many of these cases are people who just run an alt through a story as fastly as possible for some reason, but have read or listened to everything in detail the first time they played it with their main.

Still, in story-focused content, I think one should be able expect the player to actually follow the narration; quest design should not consider people not reading or listening to anything the lowest common denominator. I'm not saying that's the case right now, I just hope it will not become this way for "accessibility" reasons. Because if you write with the expectation that people don't really pay attention anyway, it will lead to simple, incomplex and repetative dialogues, and that would be underwhelming for people who actually want to experience a story - following it with a normal level of attention.

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering a skilled necromancer can just magic a corpse back to the appearance of health and vigor, I don't see why it matters much if you can immediately tell what state the body's in.

Curiosity. Also, if you use a glass coffin you'd immediately notice if the corpse is suddenly gone (as in stolen or such). Otherwise you'd have to open it regularly to make sure everything is still the way it should be, and that sounds like quite a hassle.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to the matter of whether or not players read the books, regardless of whether they're part of quests or not, I don't know. Some people might click them when they come across them just to get them into their lore library, and then read them later. Do many read in the moment? Impossible for me to know, but I rarely see people standing still for many moments at a time.

If we go by that, I'd have to doubt many people listen to or read anything at all, since even with dialogues, I often see people continue their running after not even a second. Hard so say how many people truly don't care at all, of how many of these cases are people who just run an alt through a story as fastly as possible for some reason, but have read or listened to everything in detail the first time they played it with their main.

Oh, I know. We have no way of knowing what the person behind the character is taking in or paying attention to. Especially if people play test the content on the PTS; they naturally would move through it quicker when it goes live. I wasn't intending to sound judgy; I've just noticed that most other people move through the game faster than I do.

Syldras wrote: »

Still, in story-focused content, I think one should be able expect the player to actually follow the narration; quest design should not consider people not reading or listening to anything the lowest common denominator. I'm not saying that's the case right now, I just hope it will not become this way for "accessibility" reasons. Because if you write with the expectation that people don't really pay attention anyway, it will lead to simple, incomplex and repetative dialogues, and that would be underwhelming for people who actually want to experience a story - following it with a normal level of attention.

Part of the problem is that we've had simplistic and repetitive dialogues lately, which seems to me like they have taken into account people possibly not paying attention. There could be other reasons, I suppose, but from my perspective, it really does come across as they think I'm not capable of paying attention. I really would like some more nuanced and complex dialogue options for our characters as well as the npcs. They don't have to sound like they're explaining everything to small children.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering a skilled necromancer can just magic a corpse back to the appearance of health and vigor, I don't see why it matters much if you can immediately tell what state the body's in.

Curiosity. Also, if you use a glass coffin you'd immediately notice if the corpse is suddenly gone (as in stolen or such). Otherwise you'd have to open it regularly to make sure everything is still the way it should be, and that sounds like quite a hassle.

I guess, if you have lax security, you might run the risk of someone stealing the corpse. Just bolt that sarcophagus lid down tight, put a bunch of warding spells around it, and then set a bunch of traps. That way no one can steal it, or open the lid to mess about with whatever is in there.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I know. We have no way of knowing what the person behind the character is taking in or paying attention to. Especially if people play test the content on the PTS; they naturally would move through it quicker when it goes live. I wasn't intending to sound judgy; I've just noticed that most other people move through the game faster than I do.

Don't worry, I didn't interpret it as being judgy - and I'm not judgy about it either, I'm just wondering, because I see that so often, it astonishes me. It always makes me wonder then how many of these players are running by that fastly because they just replay the content and already know the whole story - and how many of them might generally not be interested in the game's narrations. Basically the good old question how many people play this game for the rpg and story aspect, and how many are not interested in that and play ESO for other reasons like PvP, score pushing, achievement collecting, etc.

I'm aware, of course, that there are people who are interested in both, and that we'll never get this question answered. I'd personally think there are lots of story-focussed players since there is a strong story-focus in the game, with lots of story quests and fully voiced dialogues, and I'd also expect that lots of people come from the singleplayer TES games because they like the lore. But then again, I also regularly come across people in this forum who say that stories and lore don't interest them at all.

metheglyn wrote: »

Part of the problem is that we've had simplistic and repetitive dialogues lately, which seems to me like they have taken into account people possibly not paying attention. There could be other reasons, I suppose, but from my perspective, it really does come across as they think I'm not capable of paying attention. I really would like some more nuanced and complex dialogue options for our characters as well as the npcs. They don't have to sound like they're explaining everything to small children.

A tendency is visible, but I imagine it could be even worse. Look at the average TikTok video: It's usually under 10 seconds long (and for reasons unknown to me usually contains a person making weird hectical movements and often grimacing in an unnatural way). And then there seems to be a tendency of people doing several things on the side while playing video games - listening to music, having another tv (or extra screen with some movie from a streaming service) running that they're actively watching, and what not. I don't know how they can even follow a story like that. Or maybe they just don't. In any way I don't think this should be taken as the "norm" expectation when writing stories for this game. No matter how prevalent this behaviour may be today, I don't think it makes sense to write stories for people not actually interested much in stories (otherwise they would pay attention) - with that premise, the quality can only suffer.

It's a little sad of course that we've somehow come to a point where stories seem to only be some meaningless background noise for some, because people did take their time and efforts to imagine and write these things. I'm not expecting it to be like a century ago when people were standing up and applauding in the movie theater after the end of a movie, out of respect for the people involved in the filming and the screening, but somehow I still have the feeling that writers - authors of books, movie scripts, video game stories - deserve respect. So the newest tendencies in media consumption feel a little questionable to me.

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess, if you have lax security, you might run the risk of someone stealing the corpse. Just bolt that sarcophagus lid down tight, put a bunch of warding spells around it, and then set a bunch of traps. That way no one can steal it, or open the lid to mess about with whatever is in there.

I still find it funny that the Worm Cult did nothing of that.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I know. We have no way of knowing what the person behind the character is taking in or paying attention to. Especially if people play test the content on the PTS; they naturally would move through it quicker when it goes live. I wasn't intending to sound judgy; I've just noticed that most other people move through the game faster than I do.

Don't worry, I didn't interpret it as being judgy - and I'm not judgy about it either, I'm just wondering, because I see that so often, it astonishes me. It always makes me wonder then how many of these players are running by that fastly because they just replay the content and already know the whole story - and how many of them might generally not be interested in the game's narrations. Basically the good old question how many people play this game for the rpg and story aspect, and how many are not interested in that and play ESO for other reasons like PvP, score pushing, achievement collecting, etc.

I'm aware, of course, that there are people who are interested in both, and that we'll never get this question answered. I'd personally think there are lots of story-focussed players since there is a strong story-focus in the game, with lots of story quests and fully voiced dialogues, and I'd also expect that lots of people come from the singleplayer TES games because they like the lore. But then again, I also regularly come across people in this forum who say that stories and lore don't interest them at all.

I've seen people say that, too. The game does offer a lot of different activities/points of interest to support different play styles, so it make sense that you get people who aren't here for the story.

In the most recent stream, where they talked about the next patch, they mentioned something about adding the ability/option to replay quest dialogues, so if you did happen to miss something you could go through the dialogue again. I thought that was an interesting addition and wondered what prompted it. I also wonder what effect, if any, it might have on the writing going forward.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Part of the problem is that we've had simplistic and repetitive dialogues lately, which seems to me like they have taken into account people possibly not paying attention. There could be other reasons, I suppose, but from my perspective, it really does come across as they think I'm not capable of paying attention. I really would like some more nuanced and complex dialogue options for our characters as well as the npcs. They don't have to sound like they're explaining everything to small children.

A tendency is visible, but I imagine it could be even worse. Look at the average TikTok video: It's usually under 10 seconds long (and for reasons unknown to me usually contains a person making weird hectical movements and often grimacing in an unnatural way). And then there seems to be a tendency of people doing several things on the side while playing video games - listening to music, having another tv (or extra screen with some movie from a streaming service) running that they're actively watching, and what not. I don't know how they can even follow a story like that. Or maybe they just don't. In any way I don't think this should be taken as the "norm" expectation when writing stories for this game. No matter how prevalent this behaviour may be today, I don't think it makes sense to write stories for people not actually interested much in stories (otherwise they would pay attention) - with that premise, the quality can only suffer.

It's a little sad of course that we've somehow come to a point where stories seem to only be some meaningless background noise for some, because people did take their time and efforts to imagine and write these things. I'm not expecting it to be like a century ago when people were standing up and applauding in the movie theater after the end of a movie, out of respect for the people involved in the filming and the screening, but somehow I still have the feeling that writers - authors of books, movie scripts, video game stories - deserve respect. So the newest tendencies in media consumption feel a little questionable to me.

I am fairly unfamiliar with TikTok beyond knowing what it is and that it's widely used. I know the videos are supposed to be short and punchy and convey an idea quickly, but as someone who likes longer explanations and explorations of subjects, the format doesn't appeal to me.

I've also seen people state they always have something else going on when they play the game; I know that's been pretty common with gamers who are doing repeat content (like dungeons, trials, daily quests) and I can understand the game not needing their full attention when it comes to content like that. But I hope writers aren't creating stories with the idea in mind that people aren't paying full attention.

By and large, I enjoy the stories and characters that ZOS creates. Obviously, some don't resonate with me as well as others, and I wasn't all that thrilled with the announcement of the Season of the Worm Cult, but I'm invested enough to play it and pay attention. There's a lot that could happen in part 2, and I do want to know how it all turns out. It can't be easy to create stories for an MMO, and then also having to keep in mind all the future lore that came from the previous games. We know we don't utterly defeat Mannimarco this time around, so then they're left with needing to find an ending that is still satisfying and also consistent with the established lore of the world. I'm not saying the only satisfying ending is us completely winning, but leaving us defeated and in shambles might not work out well either. However it ends up, it seems to me like a difficult task to write such a story.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess, if you have lax security, you might run the risk of someone stealing the corpse. Just bolt that sarcophagus lid down tight, put a bunch of warding spells around it, and then set a bunch of traps. That way no one can steal it, or open the lid to mess about with whatever is in there.

I still find it funny that the Worm Cult did nothing of that.

Seems they didn't put their best and brightest on sarcophagus-minding duty.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

In the most recent stream, where they talked about the next patch, they mentioned something about adding the ability/option to replay quest dialogues, so if you did happen to miss something you could go through the dialogue again. I thought that was an interesting addition and wondered what prompted it. I also wonder what effect, if any, it might have on the writing going forward.

That was indeed interesting. Also made me wonder how often people need it. In any way, I think it is practical, since it is possible to be interrupted by some unexpected phone call and the like and then miss the ending of a dialogue part, or the voice acting for it, at least (which would be a pity since ESO's voice actors are awesome).

metheglyn wrote: »

I am fairly unfamiliar with TikTok beyond knowing what it is and that it's widely used. I know the videos are supposed to be short and punchy and convey an idea quickly, but as someone who likes longer explanations and explorations of subjects, the format doesn't appeal to me.

I didn't know anything about it either until I recently decided to have a look at a few popular videos to see what the fuss is about. It only left more questions, like: Why do they make those hectical movements that seem in no way related to the content? Why are they all grimacing like they're suffering from tics despite probably being healthy (which somehow comes across as mocking towards those who actually suffer from them)? Why does some random statement given by some random person even matter (It's not even interesting, funny or witty)? Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who could answer these questions, but then again, would one get any (plausible) reply beyond "It's cool!" anyway?

metheglyn wrote: »

I've also seen people state they always have something else going on when they play the game; I know that's been pretty common with gamers who are doing repeat content (like dungeons, trials, daily quests) and I can understand the game not needing their full attention when it comes to content like that.

That's understandable, specially if they're doing crafting on 20 characters every day. I'm honestly always astonished if I read something like that, because I would probably die from boredom if I tried. I do daily crafting on all my characters during the Jubilee event, but I don't have that many, and even then, it feels like a chore and not really fun (but worth it for the jubilee boxes, of course, so I do it as long as the event lasts - but on the last day, I'm rather happy it's over).

metheglyn wrote: »

By and large, I enjoy the stories and characters that ZOS creates.

Oh, they're not bad. I just prefer the style we saw in the earlier years over what we saw the last few years because of some simplifications we saw, and I'm just no fan of that. I'm just always wondering what we'll see in the future, whether things will get even more simplified or whether they return a bit to what we saw in the base game, Morrowind, CWC and Summerset.

metheglyn wrote: »

Seems they didn't put their best and brightest on sarcophagus-minding duty.

Or, even more worrying (for them): Those were the best they had.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've also seen people state they always have something else going on when they play the game; I know that's been pretty common with gamers who are doing repeat content (like dungeons, trials, daily quests) and I can understand the game not needing their full attention when it comes to content like that.

That's understandable, specially if they're doing crafting on 20 characters every day. I'm honestly always astonished if I read something like that, because I would probably die from boredom if I tried. I do daily crafting on all my characters during the Jubilee event, but I don't have that many, and even then, it feels like a chore and not really fun (but worth it for the jubilee boxes, of course, so I do it as long as the event lasts - but on the last day, I'm rather happy it's over).

I have the same general feeling about the crafting dailies during Jubilee. I love the boxes, so I do the crafting writs on every character, every day, but by the end I'm glad to be done. Otherwise I usually just do the daily crafting on my main, unless I'm trying to get some surveys or master writs--then I'll do them on several characters. I really don't know how people have the patience to do all the crafting writs on 20 characters every day.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

By and large, I enjoy the stories and characters that ZOS creates.

Oh, they're not bad. I just prefer the style we saw in the earlier years over what we saw the last few years because of some simplifications we saw, and I'm just no fan of that. I'm just always wondering what we'll see in the future, whether things will get even more simplified or whether they return a bit to what we saw in the base game, Morrowind, CWC and Summerset.

You know, in that poll thread about your favorite chapter, a recent poster explained their thoughts and opinions on all the chapters and dlc, and turned out they rated Morrowind and CWC pretty low, because they cannot stand Vivec and Sotha Sil. Of course that's pretty much opposite to how I feel, so I found it interesting to read why they thought that. With such varied opinions and tastes among the players, there's bound to be someone who appreciates each story. I think that would apply to writing style as well as content. Obviously I want more complex stories and writing and to not have everything very obvious; others will have their own ideas of what's good.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Seems they didn't put their best and brightest on sarcophagus-minding duty.

Or, even more worrying (for them): Those were the best they had.

Lol, yeah, that's probably the state of it.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Otherwise I usually just do the daily crafting on my main, unless I'm trying to get some surveys or master writs--then I'll do them on several characters.

Same. On side characters I only do daily crafting if I need a master writ or a survey for a daily endeavor the same day and somehow don't have one left (I usually try to keep at least 1 writ for consumables and 1 armor writ as well as 1 survey and 1 treasure map in my inventory for possible daily endeavors; in most cases it works and I'll have found a new one until the endeavor repeats).

metheglyn wrote: »

I really don't know how people have the patience to do all the crafting writs on 20 characters every day.

In my case not only the patience, but also the time. I rather spend what I have for questing or other things I enjoy instead of doing chores.

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, in that poll thread about your favorite chapter, a recent poster explained their thoughts and opinions on all the chapters and dlc, and turned out they rated Morrowind and CWC pretty low, because they cannot stand Vivec and Sotha Sil. Of course that's pretty much opposite to how I feel, so I found it interesting to read why they thought that. With such varied opinions and tastes among the players, there's bound to be someone who appreciates each story. I think that would apply to writing style as well as content. Obviously I want more complex stories and writing and to not have everything very obvious; others will have their own ideas of what's good.

Yeah, I read that post (and disgree, based on lore sources, with the characterization of the Tribunal being "powerhungry" for the sake of it - because they have their reasons explained in lore, and those are far more complex than some selfish wish for power; but I don't start discussions about such things unless a thread is specifically for discussing/debating lore). Generally, while people have their personal likes and dislikes for topics, regions and characters, of course, for me personally the writing itself is what matters most. Of course I do enjoy stories about Dunmer and Altmer locations a lot, but in the end, more things matter. I also liked Orsinium and Elsweyr, for example, although I don't care much for Orcs and Khajiit. And if we had seen a Dunmer chapter written like High Isle, with all that obnoxious flirting, I would have hated it, despite it being a Dunmer story. But of course, that's also a personal, subjective thing - some people might find stories about regions they don't care for generally unappealing, no matter how the writing looks like.

And as for the prefered style, of course there will be people who enjoy stories with a clear black/white or good/evil scheme and no nuances. I can only say I personally do not enjoy them much and prefer more complex characterizations.

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, yeah, that's probably the state of it.

How wonderful I joined them, then! Time to reform a few things.