Will Vengeance be the new PVP model?

Avran_Sylt · July 7

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

How much you wanna bet Vengeance and "addressing PvP lag" is in part to facilitate larger PvE overland content. Like, I dunno, the Writhing Wall?

MincMincMinc · July 7

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

How much you wanna bet Vengeance and "addressing PvP lag" is in part to facilitate larger PvE overland content. Like, I dunno, the Writhing Wall?

Hard to imagine they would do the necessary changes to make largescale pve groups work. As far as we can tell the current test shows an issue with groups spamming Aoe, overtime stacking effects, with cross buffing out of group. Try to convince any pve forum thread any of those topics need to be limited.

Darethran · July 7

Tcholl wrote: »

Vengeance will not be the new PvP, since it cannot retain the interest of players. Even the players that do defend it, leave after a few hours of gameplay.

It may become some sort of simple PvP campaign, but GH is not going anywhere.

Thank god we are back to real ESO PvP this week!

...Most people have lives and/or jobs to live, not just no-lifing an MMO.

Joy_Division · July 7

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

How much you wanna bet Vengeance and "addressing PvP lag" is in part to facilitate larger PvE overland content. Like, I dunno, the Writhing Wall?

You don;t want to take that bet. In no universe is ZOS ever going to use PvP as an incentive to get people to PvE

YandereGirlfriend · July 8

JustLovely wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

This second test was another major success. Just weapon lines brought a lot of variety back to make more people happy. At the same time performance was noticeable different due to what was added. The main driving factor appearing to be group oriented combat.

I think a lot of people against the test have just fallen for the illusion of "choices" on live. Where in reality now a days you pick one unique sub class off meta and maybe a 5 piece of flavor. Anything else and you either are dropping hard off meta usability wise or found a gimmick/exploit to abuse in niche situations.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Arrow312 wrote: »

I playes the first test and decided to pass the second. All you mentioned is important for me and make me play cyrodiil without it i have no reason to play it.
I spent days of grinding the skills, sets and days of practice and now i should use a template. Nah for people who running most of time in zergs or just want to check out cyro it is maybe ok. But for players who plays over the yrs it is just a A$$kick.

But the lack of CP has really hurt. It's easy to die to fall damage if you aren't careful, and riding to fights almost feels like you're in slow motion.

I think the horse speed is fine maybe as is sprint wise, but mount stamina needs to be drastically cut such that it is a balance game or reactive to being ganked. PvE sure infinite flying swimming "speed of light" mounts pose no issue, but PvP has a profound effect. One major factor again is how group/zerg pvp hurts performance. Bringing back natural ways to teach newer players it is safe to leave the flock is a good thing. With infinite speed and stamina ganking is not possible for pugs to attempt. Ganking was perfect for new players to try soloing, they could pick and choose their fights and on their own terms. At the same time, when ganked it broke people away from the flock and into a situation where they had to learn............. Its one of those things that people hated it as a speedbump, but failed to realize its importance.

This second test of vengeance was a major fail. Most of the time performance was as bad or worse than regular live Cyrodiil. How could performance have been this bad with everything stripped out of the game?

I sort of had that thought after the first test.

Like, they stripped basically everything out of the game but still only bumped up the caps to 300?

That, to me, seems like there are much more profound architectural issues present than simple ability logic, etc. will ever be able to account for. Wasn't the cap like 1000 per faction at launch? How is it that we are celebrating being <1/3 of those numbers despite the immense advancements in server compute made since 2014? In other words, if we are getting 2014 gameplay then why are we failing to meet even 2014 performance? Where has the performance actually gone?

Darethran · July 8

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I sort of had that thought after the first test.

Like, they stripped basically everything out of the game but still only bumped up the caps to 300?

That, to me, seems like there are much more profound architectural issues present than simple ability logic, etc. will ever be able to account for. Wasn't the cap like 1000 per faction at launch? How is it that we are celebrating being <1/3 of those numbers despite the immense advancements in server compute made since 2014? In other words, if we are getting 2014 gameplay then why are we failing to meet even 2014 performance? Where has the performance actually gone?

Back then, most of the multiplayer code was client side, so cheaters were rampant like any multiplayer game with no anticheat. Then it was moved server side, and player counts were decimated because now it was a server calculating everything for everyone, rather than everyone's PC doing their part.

300 Is a massive improvement over 80, and still no cheaters. This is the best Cyrodiil has ever felt and performed since I first played back in 2016.

YandereGirlfriend · July 8

Darethran wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I sort of had that thought after the first test.

Like, they stripped basically everything out of the game but still only bumped up the caps to 300?

That, to me, seems like there are much more profound architectural issues present than simple ability logic, etc. will ever be able to account for. Wasn't the cap like 1000 per faction at launch? How is it that we are celebrating being <1/3 of those numbers despite the immense advancements in server compute made since 2014? In other words, if we are getting 2014 gameplay then why are we failing to meet even 2014 performance? Where has the performance actually gone?

Back then, most of the multiplayer code was client side, so cheaters were rampant like any multiplayer game with no anticheat. Then it was moved server side, and player counts were decimated because now it was a server calculating everything for everyone, rather than everyone's PC doing their part.

300 Is a massive improvement over 80, and still no cheaters. This is the best Cyrodiil has ever felt and performed since I first played back in 2016.

Honestly, I would pocket the performance and simply deal with the cheaters having fun for a night or two before they were reported and banned.

Mayrael · July 8

LarsS wrote: »

I have been around since late beta. If you look at the developement of cyro, its obvious that we have had a sucessive decline of people going to Cyro. At least PC/EU is now at the stage that there is any notable population only a few hours in the evening. Thus realistically cyro won't survive much longer without some changes.

The main problem most people mentions is the lag and the low pop. In addition it is extreemly hard for people new to Cyro to have fun, the gap between a noob and hardcore groups or good small scalers is far to big. When the game was new it were different there were a substantial gap but new players could still feel that they contributed.

Thus like it or not, if we want Cyro to survive, which I do, we need to accept substantial changes.

Every MMORPG I’ve played was the same. If you’re new, experienced players will wipe the floor with you. The only way to get better is to be stubborn, pick yourself up after every failure, and keep trying. That’s just how you learn and master anything.

Cyro definitely needs some changes, and the top two priorities are:
1. Fixing the lag.
2. Fixing the bugs.

If you want more people in Cyro, make it rewarding to play there. But for the sake of everything sacred in MMORPGs, don’t invalidate years of progress for veteran players.

Islyn · July 8

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

But wait - how most PVP-main folks act - the no need to pvp would be a +? I mean honestly: If pvp mains don't want to pve, then I don't think they should be made to do so to obtain competitive gear.
But then I've ALWAYS thought that so it'd nothing new from me.

MincMincMinc · July 8

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Darethran wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I sort of had that thought after the first test.

Like, they stripped basically everything out of the game but still only bumped up the caps to 300?

That, to me, seems like there are much more profound architectural issues present than simple ability logic, etc. will ever be able to account for. Wasn't the cap like 1000 per faction at launch? How is it that we are celebrating being <1/3 of those numbers despite the immense advancements in server compute made since 2014? In other words, if we are getting 2014 gameplay then why are we failing to meet even 2014 performance? Where has the performance actually gone?

Back then, most of the multiplayer code was client side, so cheaters were rampant like any multiplayer game with no anticheat. Then it was moved server side, and player counts were decimated because now it was a server calculating everything for everyone, rather than everyone's PC doing their part.

300 Is a massive improvement over 80, and still no cheaters. This is the best Cyrodiil has ever felt and performed since I first played back in 2016.

Honestly, I would pocket the performance and simply deal with the cheaters having fun for a night or two before they were reported and banned.

Same. Only problem at that point is getting permabanned for upsetting a zerg guild where they will just mass report you

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · July 8

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Darethran wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I sort of had that thought after the first test.

Like, they stripped basically everything out of the game but still only bumped up the caps to 300?

That, to me, seems like there are much more profound architectural issues present than simple ability logic, etc. will ever be able to account for. Wasn't the cap like 1000 per faction at launch? How is it that we are celebrating being <1/3 of those numbers despite the immense advancements in server compute made since 2014? In other words, if we are getting 2014 gameplay then why are we failing to meet even 2014 performance? Where has the performance actually gone?

Back then, most of the multiplayer code was client side, so cheaters were rampant like any multiplayer game with no anticheat. Then it was moved server side, and player counts were decimated because now it was a server calculating everything for everyone, rather than everyone's PC doing their part.

300 Is a massive improvement over 80, and still no cheaters. This is the best Cyrodiil has ever felt and performed since I first played back in 2016.

Honestly, I would pocket the performance and simply deal with the cheaters having fun for a night or two before they were reported and banned.

I get why people want better performance, but moving even part of the stat or damage calculations back to the client side would make cheating much harder to control. Unfortunately, cheaters wouldn’t just have “a night or two” before getting banned. ESO doesn’t have any kind of kernel-level anti-cheat or even a solid baseline system to automatically catch client-side stat manipulation. That would mean bans would have to be done entirely manually, which just isn’t realistic for a game with a declining population.

Server-side calculations are exactly what prevents people from spoofing or manipulating stats, damage, mitigation, etc, in ways the server can’t reliably detect. Server-side calculations make this kind of cheating, which I’d say is the worst kind, essentially impossible. It absolutely hurts performance, but it also maintains a basic level of competitive integrity that keeps PvP fair enough to be enjoyable, even if ESO isn’t truly a competitive game. It’s not a perfect solution, but opening up client-side manipulation would lead to much bigger problems in the long run.

With all of that said, I do think resources should be allocated to better, more stable servers that can actually handle all of these required calculations. We’ve seen it work in the past after the last round of server updates a couple of years ago, and it’s clear that the real issue lies there. But I also know that open-world PvPers don’t make up a huge part of the game’s income, so I get why it’s a tough thing to ask for.

reazea · July 8

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

I'm one of those people that gets really jumpy when a person or companies words don't match their actions. So ya, I'm VERY worried that ZOS' plan for Cyrodiil is going to be a permanent mandated vengeance mode.

MincMincMinc · July 8

reazea wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

I'm one of those people that gets really jumpy when a person or companies words don't match their actions. So ya, I'm VERY worried that ZOS' plan for Cyrodiil is going to be a permanent mandated vengeance mode.

Still not sure what ACTIONS zos has done that say vengeance is going to be the only option. Its just doom speculation and worries.

Lpa even pointed out the main issue with people worrying.....zos can't make money off of vengeance pvp. There is no return. Suddenly 2k or 3k or so of the daily 12k (steam) player base cancels their eso+ membership and never buys a dlc again because it would be useless. Yeah sounds like a great business strategy.

A better use for vengeance or a similar campaign would be to reduce the servers down to vengeance and greyhost. Where u50 and lower cp players like 500 or less are directed into vengeance. Atleast we might see a better player retention INTO pvp where arriving players just starting out in eso can play a functional campaign. Even then it'd need more flushing out for some preset generic gear, mundus, enchants, etc. Right now new players only experience bgs which are comically horrendous, but thats a whole different topic.

Tcholl · July 8

Vengeance campaign starts: vengeance will be the only PvP!

Vengeance campaign afer one week: one or two bars for each faction on primetime.

No, GH is not going anywhere and there are no signs that vengeance will replace this or any other campaign. All the regular PvPers were just waiting to come back to Cyro.

ADawg · July 9

MincMincMinc wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

I'm one of those people that gets really jumpy when a person or companies words don't match their actions. So ya, I'm VERY worried that ZOS' plan for Cyrodiil is going to be a permanent mandated vengeance mode.

Still not sure what ACTIONS zos has done that say vengeance is going to be the only option. Its just doom speculation and worries.

Lpa even pointed out the main issue with people worrying.....zos can't make money off of vengeance pvp. There is no return. Suddenly 2k or 3k or so of the daily 12k (steam) player base cancels their eso+ membership and never buys a dlc again because it would be useless. Yeah sounds like a great business strategy.
A better use for vengeance or a similar campaign would be to reduce the servers down to vengeance and greyhost. Where u50 and lower cp players like 500 or less are directed into vengeance. Atleast we might see a better player retention INTO pvp where arriving players just starting out in eso can play a functional campaign. Even then it'd need more flushing out for some preset generic gear, mundus, enchants, etc. Right now new players only experience bgs which are comically horrendous, but thats a whole different topic.

Allow me to help you. From their own announcement:

The Vengeance Campaign returns with all-new options for use in mass battles across Cyrodiil.

Our effort to make Cyrodiil the best it can be continues—and you can help!

Participate in the updated Vengeance Campaign during its return on PC/Mac from today until July 8, 2025 to provide crucial data and feedback that will help shape the future of the Alliance War.

This time, console players can participate as well, offering information about console performance and enabling another segment of the community a chance to provide their feedback. The Vengeance campaign will run on consoles from today until July 9, 2025.

"SHAPE THE FUTURE OF THE ALLIANCE WAR"

That is SPECIFICALLY what I was referring to.

Joy_Division · July 9

ADawg wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

I'm one of those people that gets really jumpy when a person or companies words don't match their actions. So ya, I'm VERY worried that ZOS' plan for Cyrodiil is going to be a permanent mandated vengeance mode.

Still not sure what ACTIONS zos has done that say vengeance is going to be the only option. Its just doom speculation and worries.

Lpa even pointed out the main issue with people worrying.....zos can't make money off of vengeance pvp. There is no return. Suddenly 2k or 3k or so of the daily 12k (steam) player base cancels their eso+ membership and never buys a dlc again because it would be useless. Yeah sounds like a great business strategy.
A better use for vengeance or a similar campaign would be to reduce the servers down to vengeance and greyhost. Where u50 and lower cp players like 500 or less are directed into vengeance. Atleast we might see a better player retention INTO pvp where arriving players just starting out in eso can play a functional campaign. Even then it'd need more flushing out for some preset generic gear, mundus, enchants, etc. Right now new players only experience bgs which are comically horrendous, but thats a whole different topic.

Allow me to help you. From their own announcement:

The Vengeance Campaign returns with all-new options for use in mass battles across Cyrodiil.

Our effort to make Cyrodiil the best it can be continues—and you can help!

Participate in the updated Vengeance Campaign during its return on PC/Mac from today until July 8, 2025 to provide crucial data and feedback that will help shape the future of the Alliance War.

This time, console players can participate as well, offering information about console performance and enabling another segment of the community a chance to provide their feedback. The Vengeance campaign will run on consoles from today until July 9, 2025.

"SHAPE THE FUTURE OF THE ALLIANCE WAR"

That is SPECIFICALLY what I was referring to.

Yes. That's what tests do. Provide data to help reform and improve the system for the future.

reazea · July 9

Joy_Division wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

I'm one of those people that gets really jumpy when a person or companies words don't match their actions. So ya, I'm VERY worried that ZOS' plan for Cyrodiil is going to be a permanent mandated vengeance mode.

Still not sure what ACTIONS zos has done that say vengeance is going to be the only option. Its just doom speculation and worries.

Lpa even pointed out the main issue with people worrying.....zos can't make money off of vengeance pvp. There is no return. Suddenly 2k or 3k or so of the daily 12k (steam) player base cancels their eso+ membership and never buys a dlc again because it would be useless. Yeah sounds like a great business strategy.
A better use for vengeance or a similar campaign would be to reduce the servers down to vengeance and greyhost. Where u50 and lower cp players like 500 or less are directed into vengeance. Atleast we might see a better player retention INTO pvp where arriving players just starting out in eso can play a functional campaign. Even then it'd need more flushing out for some preset generic gear, mundus, enchants, etc. Right now new players only experience bgs which are comically horrendous, but thats a whole different topic.

Allow me to help you. From their own announcement:

The Vengeance Campaign returns with all-new options for use in mass battles across Cyrodiil.

Our effort to make Cyrodiil the best it can be continues—and you can help!

Participate in the updated Vengeance Campaign during its return on PC/Mac from today until July 8, 2025 to provide crucial data and feedback that will help shape the future of the Alliance War.

This time, console players can participate as well, offering information about console performance and enabling another segment of the community a chance to provide their feedback. The Vengeance campaign will run on consoles from today until July 9, 2025.

"SHAPE THE FUTURE OF THE ALLIANCE WAR"

That is SPECIFICALLY what I was referring to.

Yes. That's what tests do. Provide data to help reform and improve the system for the future.

How was Cyrodiil PvP improved by the months of random "tests" about 3-4 years ago? You were here for that and the only change I noticed was a substantial and recurring reduction in the population cap.

ADawg · July 9

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes. That's what tests do. Provide data to help reform and improve the system for the future.

TEST CENTER

reazea · July 9

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

How much you wanna bet Vengeance and "addressing PvP lag" is in part to facilitate larger PvE overland content. Like, I dunno, the Writhing Wall?

This would explain the decline in performance after the 25 June maintenance and why we haven't seen any improvements after two more maintenances since. And if you look back, historically, the reduction in the population cap has roughly coincided with the release of new chapters.

Joy_Division · July 9

reazea wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

I'm one of those people that gets really jumpy when a person or companies words don't match their actions. So ya, I'm VERY worried that ZOS' plan for Cyrodiil is going to be a permanent mandated vengeance mode.

Still not sure what ACTIONS zos has done that say vengeance is going to be the only option. Its just doom speculation and worries.

Lpa even pointed out the main issue with people worrying.....zos can't make money off of vengeance pvp. There is no return. Suddenly 2k or 3k or so of the daily 12k (steam) player base cancels their eso+ membership and never buys a dlc again because it would be useless. Yeah sounds like a great business strategy.
A better use for vengeance or a similar campaign would be to reduce the servers down to vengeance and greyhost. Where u50 and lower cp players like 500 or less are directed into vengeance. Atleast we might see a better player retention INTO pvp where arriving players just starting out in eso can play a functional campaign. Even then it'd need more flushing out for some preset generic gear, mundus, enchants, etc. Right now new players only experience bgs which are comically horrendous, but thats a whole different topic.

Allow me to help you. From their own announcement:

The Vengeance Campaign returns with all-new options for use in mass battles across Cyrodiil.

Our effort to make Cyrodiil the best it can be continues—and you can help!

Participate in the updated Vengeance Campaign during its return on PC/Mac from today until July 8, 2025 to provide crucial data and feedback that will help shape the future of the Alliance War.

This time, console players can participate as well, offering information about console performance and enabling another segment of the community a chance to provide their feedback. The Vengeance campaign will run on consoles from today until July 9, 2025.

"SHAPE THE FUTURE OF THE ALLIANCE WAR"

That is SPECIFICALLY what I was referring to.

Yes. That's what tests do. Provide data to help reform and improve the system for the future.

How was Cyrodiil PvP improved by the months of random "tests" about 3-4 years ago? You were here for that and the only change I noticed was a substantial and recurring reduction in the population cap.

It wasn't improved because the data from the tests showed them everything they tried to do did not have an worthwhile impact on performance.

Not all tests give productive results.

Instead we got Ravenwatch because a small and loud group of PvP players told ZOS no proc was where "real" PvP was, only for the majority of them to never set foot in RW. If I was ZOS, I would be reluctant to listen to these players either. They obviously either do not know what they want or are so imprecise/vague with what they do want, they are incapable of comminating it effectively.

Did the Vengeance tests give us productive results? Yes. I witnessed and played in big battles just fine on both tests. There is something that works in Vengeance unlike those other tests.

If Live was this awesome place of compelling, fun, and skillful PvP as is being suggested by Vengeance's critics, then MMO players the world over would be lining up to play it. These tests wouldn't be necessary. That has not happened. In fact the opposite has happened. They all left. "Oh, but Joy all they need to do is get rid of heal stacking." Did you read the latest patch notes? They have zero plans to even consider doing that.

This doesn;t mean I want Vengeance to be the only PvP campaign as of tomorrow. It means there are elements in Vengeance that works unlike Live that I want ZOS to continue exploring to better improve PvP in the future.

MincMincMinc · July 9

ADawg wrote: »

"SHAPE THE FUTURE OF THE ALLIANCE WAR"

That is SPECIFICALLY what I was referring to.

Joy got to it before me. This in no shape or form says "we are going to make template pvp the only form of pvp". The motion still stands, any end result will have to get monetization in some shape or form allow them to get you to buy ESO+ and future DLC chapters......which require gear and choices and all the systems you can dream of.

Noproc and nocp in general just flopped due to population collapse in the game. Cyro does not function in two conditions. A balanced population, and low population. These ended up closing down because one faction was able to repeatedly for months on end always flip the map. Which causes people to log out because there is no point fighting an uphill battle zerg for zerg when one has more stats and more players than you.

Ruleset changes would have to happen for the campaigns to self regulate and work with lower and lower populations or imbalanced populations. The only self regulation intended in old cyrodil was that if one faction gets stronger, the other two will push back at the same time. We are not at launch anymore where all 4 campaigns are pop locked at 700 players all day and night fighting between bridges and gates.

Muizer · July 9

ADawg wrote: »

There are elements in Vengeance that works unlike Live that I want ZOS to continue exploring to better improve PvP in the future.

That's a bit vague IMHO. I think we can say with some confidence where those explorations are going. Vengeance does not make sense as a diagnostic process to fix existing PVP. It does makes sense as a platform to build a new, performant PvP upon. There's every reason to assume Vengeance marks a clear and permanent fork in the road as far as development is concerned. So, if we look at the OP's question and apply it not so much to any existing instances of PvP, but the direction of development, then the answer is clearly "yes". Or at least, it is what ZOS are betting on.

Bubosh · July 19

If they would have just sticked to their word about the reconstruction of the game code we wouldn't have had all this mess now but sadly this promise just didn't happen as most of zos promises which they made about the problematic of the lagg since forever. Not sure what exactly happened to this project of recoding the game but in my honest opinion I believe they know exactly where the problem with the lagg is sitting at for long enough already and all this testing and subclassing was just another thing to drag out more time and get at least few high peak pops for the release of U46 and I guess also subclassing was made exact for these 2 things and subclassing was even not any much of time investment for them (no balancing was made and all skills existed already they basically enabled option for other classes to use these lines of other classes as well) just a utility to feed the player base with at least something to get some population ups. It's like almost all companies sadly work exactly the same way these days (most profit with lowest investment). Just my opinion

AngryPenguin · July 19

ADawg wrote: »

Can anyone answer me if Vengeance will be the new PVP model moving forward? Is that the intent? I came back to check out the subclassing and now Cyrodiil is locked to this Vengeance test...

Please tell me this limited "everyone has the same build style of play" will NOT be the end state of PVP moving forward...

It sure looks like ZOS is planning on making vengeance a permanent game mode, possibly even the only Cyrodiil game mode. They're continually making updates to vengeance mode and not doing much of anything at all to improve the current live game mode even though the premise given for vengeance mode is to use data collected to improve current live mode. It makes no sense.

AngryPenguin · July 19

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

How much you wanna bet Vengeance and "addressing PvP lag" is in part to facilitate larger PvE overland content. Like, I dunno, the Writhing Wall?

Someone's paying attention.

SaffronCitrusflower · July 20

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

It's always worrying when actions don't match the narrative. ZOS is definately acting like vengeance is the future. They aren't making any changes to live Cyrodiil PvP and the narrative is vengeance exists to learn how to improve the PvP we have now, but that's not what's happening. There haven't been any changes to live Cyrodiil.

Arrow312 · July 22

look at the last feedback there were more questions about how to find the mode and what is important to the players than about the performance. I think they wanted to test how it would be received by people and whether they could get it in. As an additional campaign or as a replacement.

In my opinion, this mode is clearly heading in the right direction. We as players have said often enough what the problems in Cyrodiil are and nothing has happened.

Muizer · July 22

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

the narrative is vengeance exists to learn how to improve the PvP we have now

I do not recall ZOS saying or implying this at any point with Vengeance. Do you mean them stressing Vengeance is a test? That's just to reassure us its current iteration isn't the final product. That they will be changing and adding things to it in the future.

colossalvoids · July 22

Muizer wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

the narrative is vengeance exists to learn how to improve the PvP we have now

I do not recall ZOS saying or implying this at any point with Vengeance. Do you mean them stressing Vengeance is a test? That's just to reassure us its current iteration isn't the final product. That they will be changing and adding things to it in the future.

Some might be puzzled by their words of choice, they definitely not looking at preserving Cyro as-is as it's already failed on both sides, so now it's a question of what's safe to sacrifice and what broader audience is interested in overall as what's the point of fixing it for a hundred players.

Arrow312 · July 22

I can only speak for myself, but a Cyrodiil without sets and everything else makes no sense to me. For me, it would be the final nail in the coffin. I only play PvP because I just can't see anything else after umpteen runs. Housing has never interested me.
If you give me a version without sets etc. then I might as well play something else. Because the PvE is then completely irrelevant, as I don't need anything else from it.