Arrow312 wrote: »

For now it is call a test to improve performance and check why we are lagging.....But if you check the latest survey i not sure what they plan. I dont know how they get these results, i was shocked when i saw it.

A test that is the only option for cyrodiil PVP... I honestly had no idea about it as I recently came back to check out Subclassing and have spent my time grinding skill sets and doing occasional BGs. I really hope this is not the future for cyrodiil.

I watched a guildmate stream it and we were very unimpressed.

Basically you spend time making a character and can't actually play that character because you are forced to use a "templatized" skillset. While that may be fun for those who don't like to make their own builds, I do enjoy making unique and custom builds.

IMO, vengeance doesn't "fix" PVP, it is a total overhaul that ignores many problems and creates its own unique set of problems. 70k hp..., limited skills, no morphs, etc, etc. All of these things dramatically change the dynamics of open world PVP and siege/defense tactics.

After years of trying to fix PVP as is with iterative fixes and not getting anywhere, Vengence is the attempt by ZoS to rebuild PvP from the ground up - basically vengeance 1 only had class skills, and vengeance 2 has a wider range of skills, skills have been changed to give the best performance in a many vs many vs many environment, this is (in essence) the beginning of the journey to seperating the balancing between PVP and PVE.

At this point no one knows where this will finish up, because I am sure they will be adding things back in, with skills/items/CP etc being reworked seperately for PVP and for them to be optimised for the "Epic" battles.

Through this approach, at some point the bottleneck for performance may be discovered (it may not because of the reoptimisation of skills/abilities for this environment).

As always the loudest people are those that have most to lose - you have those that love vengeance as is for the "real" PvP that doesn't rely on procs to beat people, and those that love current cyro and say they prefer the low population and performance issues to vengeance. I think both these groups will be disappointed, as I think we will get to a point that something from current cyro needs to be sacrificed in some way, but that the final vengeance product will be much closer to current cyro than it currently is.

I have enjoyed both normal Cyro and Vengeance campaigns for different reasons, they are (effectively) different game modes at this point. The reason why ZoS are testing on Live is that by making it the only campaign is the only way they can get the numbers of people in to get the performance data they want. The testing is currently only abut performance and not about balance between skills or classes. If i recall correctly from vengenace 1 the max population was somewhere around 4-5 times higher than normal cyro and the server side calculation weight was not close to the normal peak resources required.

Mayrael wrote: »

I really hope not. If PvP ends up being centered on templates, that’ll be the final nail in the coffin for ESO for me.

Maybe not on PC but on consoles it will be the final nail. i play(ed) on both PC and X EU and if Vengence sets as only PvP open world options pvp on consoles die. Cyro is the only PvP environment which has a little bit of pop. IC is mostly dead, BG sometimes i fell asleep in queue.

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

Bribe...lol its the ONLY cyrodiil option. its not a bribe its FORCED.

And its simple. Template PVP = I unsub and go play other stuff again. They can ride the wave of PVE-RPers who fund the operation. More power to them.

That is my feedback and opinion on the matter. I oppose the notion of template based Cyrodiil. Especially if it is the only choice. All my DLCs, all my hours, all my skyshards, all my PVE-RP nonsense I have to do to unlock a skill, gone, zip zilch nada. I'm not even playing my character anymore. I am playing template A/B/C etc.

No thanks!

Joy_Division wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

ZOS is SAYING it's just a test.

ZOS is ACTING like vengeance is going to be the only option at some point relatively soon.

I don't think ZOS and the few PvP mains advocating vengeance realize how bad things are going to go for the game as a whole if vengeance mode becomes the only option. It'll be like the no CP camp was. Plus, vengeance mode disconnects the need to PvE to get gears and materials and other things. So with a vengeance mandate there will be no reason to PvE if all we want to do is PvP.

You say that with such conviction, yet ZOS has said nothing to that effect. Not at all.

It pains for me to say this as a PvP main, but you are far overstating the importance of the tiny PvP community. If we had any impact on ZOS's bottom line, it would not have taken them 6 years to offer a single update to Battlegrounds (and then subsequently ignore it) and ten years since, what 1.2, to finally get serious in embarking on a attempt to do something about lag.

The moment it is deemed essential to bribe people to do the content rather than play and enjoy it for its own sake, that is pretty much the death knell.

Bribe...lol its the ONLY cyrodiil option. its not a bribe its FORCED.

And its simple. Template PVP = I unsub and go play other stuff again. They can ride the wave of PVE-RPers who fund the operation. More power to them.

That is my feedback and opinion on the matter. I oppose the notion of template based Cyrodiil. Especially if it is the only choice. All my DLCs, all my hours, all my skyshards, all my PVE-RP nonsense I have to do to unlock a skill, gone, zip zilch nada. I'm not even playing my character anymore. I am playing template A/B/C etc.

No thanks!

By all means leave your feedback.

You're right in that there isn't any bribery for Vengeance. that's not what I meant. You yourself are proving my point in that the only way you will so PVE-RP nonsense is if ZOS bribes with with certain gear/stuff connected to PvP. You'll won;t play it on its own merits. Any successful PvP system needs to sustain itself because it is enjoyable to play by a profitable amount of ESO's customer base. Not because of some crumbs that ZOS may dangle as an incentive. It's taken ZOS 11 years to figure that out, hopefully something good will come out of these tests (which is what ZOS says they are, not necessarily a preview).

Doesn't change the fact that VENGEANCE is the only option right now. Its is forced if you want cyrodiil.

SolarRune wrote: »

After years of trying to fix PVP as is with iterative fixes and not getting anywhere, Vengence is the attempt by ZoS to rebuild PvP from the ground up.

This cannot be that hard to understand, can it? Sometimes I wonder if the people who don't get it are being disingenuous, deliberately misrepresenting it to push an agenda. I guess assume incompetence before malice but ........... it makes me grit my teeth sometimes either way.

As for Vengeance being a test, it is NOT a test in the sense that they are just for learning things that can then be applied to PvP as it is atm.

Rather each iteration of vengeance is a test to see what can be 'safely' added into PvP without compromising performance. And this is going to be a cumulative thing.

I have no doubt at all that the current iteration is quite remote from anything the devs would be content with. At the very least we can expect some variety of gear. But I would not rule out that after 'vengeance skills' we could get 'vengeance sets'.

And actually if PvP were to be de-coupled completely from the PvE gear chase, I would personally consider that a huge relief.I definitely hope that will be the outcome.

It is impossible to tell for sure because we are not privy to the development plans of ZOS.

But if you look at the signs, then yes, Cyrodiil is very likely going to end up being Vengeance in some shape or form. Just to recap what we've seen so far:

- There was a survey in which players were asked pretty extensively about whether they enjoyed Vengeance and whether they preferred a lagfree experience over build diversity. The results of this survey, which seemed* to indicate that most players prefer a Vengeance-like model, were posted recently on Twitter by the official ESO account as a kind of triumphant marketing moment. The question of whether or not Vengeance is fun would be wholly irrelevant had this just been a performance test, as some players still seem to believe. Nor would the official ESO Twitter account have had any reason to signal how fun this ruleset supposedly is.
- ZOS occasionally refer to this system as 'Cyrodiil Champions' in official communication, further indicating that Vengeance is not some independent performance test but rather part of a bigger plan to overhaul Cyrodiil entirely.
- Subclassing fits perfectly into the Vengeance concept. One of the biggest complaints about the original Vengeance test was that classes felt wildly imbalanced as some of them did not even have a spammable while others lacked access to critical buffs. All of these problems disappear the moment players can just pick the skill lines they want.
- Logic denotes that a company like this wouldn't invest months of development time and resources into an entirely separate ruleset if its only purpose was to test performance and then be discarded.

So yes, I do personally think Vengeance will be the future of Cyrodiil PVP. Whether it will be the only option or not remains to be seen.

*I say 'seemed' because surveys like this are inherently flawed for a bunch of reasons I can't be bothered to list here. I will just say that they could've gathered similar results had they survey'd players 1 week into the first no-proc test, and we all know how popular that ended up being.

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

There was a survey in which players were asked pretty extensively about whether they enjoyed Vengeance and whether they preferred a lagfree experience over build diversity. The results of this survey, which seemed* to indicate that most players prefer a Vengeance-like model

But...its not lag free lol. It will be zero diversity + LAG, mark my words.

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Subclassing fits perfectly into the Vengeance concept. One of the biggest complaints about the original Vengeance test was that classes felt wildly imbalanced as some of them did not even have a spammable while others lacked access to critical buffs. All of these problems disappear the moment players can just pick the skill lines they want.

But, sublcassing is disabled in vengeance. And subclassing is what filled the problem of "this class doesn't have a spammable"...it opened more build diversity while vengeance destroys build diversity.

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

So yes, I do personally think Vengeance will be the future of Cyrodiil PVP. Whether it will be the only option or not remains to be seen.

Again, for me its simple. Vengeance as the only option = I unsub and go back to doing what I was doing outside of ESO. Making builds is 75% of the fun (FOR ME) on this game. All my builds are my own creation and I don't chase the "META".

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

*I say 'seemed' because surveys like this are inherently flawed for a bunch of reasons I can't be bothered to list here. I will just say that they could've gathered similar results had they survey'd players 1 week into the first no-proc test, and we all know how popular that ended up being.

Ravenwatch with no proc was FINE!!!! People refused to play there because "the couldn't use their proc sets" how is vengeance any better here? Also, enabling procs didn't fix SQUAT in Ravenwatch, still a dead campaign (that I actually prefer).

No proc was better IMO, because it removed the concept of chasing the latest mythic or DLC to be meta, you just played a limited set list while still having your class diversity. IMO, make a no-proc campaign with sub classing and your build is the fun of it all. NO-CP, no carry EZ PROC SETS, more focus on class/weapon skills, etc. No proc Ravenwatch was legit.

Revenwatch with No Proc was an absolute mess. There was total ambiguity on which sets actually worked, so you had to do a crap ton of theory crafting and wasting time testing builds repeatedly. The barrier to entry was much higher, and the player population cratered. Worse, there was not any noticeable performance boost.

There's a reason all the PvP guilds have left the game, the scene is nowhere near what it used to be because performance and balance got worse every year. Vengeance was actually enjoyable, and many other PvP players felt the same. In the guild I joined last night, people were hopping into the voice chat and saying the same thing: It feels like the good old days.

Yeah Vengeance needs more skill lines, fire siege equipment & catapults, and basic gear stats. But even if it stays as it currently is? It's so much better than no proc it's not even close. The increased pop caps alone makes it 100% worth the trade offs.

Or are we going to pretend there weren't massive threads over the years about what is the real pop cap of Cyrodiil, which was estimated between 60-80 players per faction?

I have been around since late beta. If you look at the developement of cyro, its obvious that we have had a sucessive decline of people going to Cyro. At least PC/EU is now at the stage that there is any notable population only a few hours in the evening. Thus realistically cyro won't survive much longer without some changes.

The main problem most people mentions is the lag and the low pop. In addition it is extreemly hard for people new to Cyro to have fun, the gap between a noob and hardcore groups or good small scalers is far to big. When the game was new it were different there were a substantial gap but new players could still feel that they contributed.

Thus like it or not, if we want Cyro to survive, which I do, we need to accept substantial changes.

This second test was another major success. Just weapon lines brought a lot of variety back to make more people happy. At the same time performance was noticeable different due to what was added. The main driving factor appearing to be group oriented combat.

I think a lot of people against the test have just fallen for the illusion of "choices" on live. Where in reality now a days you pick one unique sub class off meta and maybe a 5 piece of flavor. Anything else and you either are dropping hard off meta usability wise or found a gimmick/exploit to abuse in niche situations.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Arrow312 wrote: »

I playes the first test and decided to pass the second. All you mentioned is important for me and make me play cyrodiil without it i have no reason to play it.
I spent days of grinding the skills, sets and days of practice and now i should use a template. Nah for people who running most of time in zergs or just want to check out cyro it is maybe ok. But for players who plays over the yrs it is just a A$$kick.

But the lack of CP has really hurt. It's easy to die to fall damage if you aren't careful, and riding to fights almost feels like you're in slow motion.

I think the horse speed is fine maybe as is sprint wise, but mount stamina needs to be drastically cut such that it is a balance game or reactive to being ganked. PvE sure infinite flying swimming "speed of light" mounts pose no issue, but PvP has a profound effect. One major factor again is how group/zerg pvp hurts performance. Bringing back natural ways to teach newer players it is safe to leave the flock is a good thing. With infinite speed and stamina ganking is not possible for pugs to attempt. Ganking was perfect for new players to try soloing, they could pick and choose their fights and on their own terms. At the same time, when ganked it broke people away from the flock and into a situation where they had to learn............. Its one of those things that people hated it as a speedbump, but failed to realize its importance.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

This second test was another major success. Just weapon lines brought a lot of variety back to make more people happy. At the same time performance was noticeable different due to what was added. The main driving factor appearing to be group oriented combat.

I think a lot of people against the test have just fallen for the illusion of "choices" on live. Where in reality now a days you pick one unique sub class off meta and maybe a 5 piece of flavor. Anything else and you either are dropping hard off meta usability wise or found a gimmick/exploit to abuse in niche situations.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Arrow312 wrote: »

I playes the first test and decided to pass the second. All you mentioned is important for me and make me play cyrodiil without it i have no reason to play it.
I spent days of grinding the skills, sets and days of practice and now i should use a template. Nah for people who running most of time in zergs or just want to check out cyro it is maybe ok. But for players who plays over the yrs it is just a A$$kick.

But the lack of CP has really hurt. It's easy to die to fall damage if you aren't careful, and riding to fights almost feels like you're in slow motion.

I think the horse speed is fine maybe as is sprint wise, but mount stamina needs to be drastically cut such that it is a balance game or reactive to being ganked. PvE sure infinite flying swimming "speed of light" mounts pose no issue, but PvP has a profound effect. One major factor again is how group/zerg pvp hurts performance. Bringing back natural ways to teach newer players it is safe to leave the flock is a good thing. With infinite speed and stamina ganking is not possible for pugs to attempt. Ganking was perfect for new players to try soloing, they could pick and choose their fights and on their own terms. At the same time, when ganked it broke people away from the flock and into a situation where they had to learn............. Its one of those things that people hated it as a speedbump, but failed to realize its importance.

This second test of vengeance was a major fail. Most of the time performance was as bad or worse than regular live Cyrodiil. How could performance have been this bad with everything stripped out of the game?

JustLovely wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

This second test was another major success. Just weapon lines brought a lot of variety back to make more people happy. At the same time performance was noticeable different due to what was added. The main driving factor appearing to be group oriented combat.

I think a lot of people against the test have just fallen for the illusion of "choices" on live. Where in reality now a days you pick one unique sub class off meta and maybe a 5 piece of flavor. Anything else and you either are dropping hard off meta usability wise or found a gimmick/exploit to abuse in niche situations.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Arrow312 wrote: »

I playes the first test and decided to pass the second. All you mentioned is important for me and make me play cyrodiil without it i have no reason to play it.
I spent days of grinding the skills, sets and days of practice and now i should use a template. Nah for people who running most of time in zergs or just want to check out cyro it is maybe ok. But for players who plays over the yrs it is just a A$$kick.

But the lack of CP has really hurt. It's easy to die to fall damage if you aren't careful, and riding to fights almost feels like you're in slow motion.

I think the horse speed is fine maybe as is sprint wise, but mount stamina needs to be drastically cut such that it is a balance game or reactive to being ganked. PvE sure infinite flying swimming "speed of light" mounts pose no issue, but PvP has a profound effect. One major factor again is how group/zerg pvp hurts performance. Bringing back natural ways to teach newer players it is safe to leave the flock is a good thing. With infinite speed and stamina ganking is not possible for pugs to attempt. Ganking was perfect for new players to try soloing, they could pick and choose their fights and on their own terms. At the same time, when ganked it broke people away from the flock and into a situation where they had to learn............. Its one of those things that people hated it as a speedbump, but failed to realize its importance.

This second test of vengeance was a major fail. Most of the time performance was as bad or worse than regular live Cyrodiil. How could performance have been this bad with everything stripped out of the game?

No that is a successful test......they found something that made it fail. They are diagnosing what causes issues and found an issue. If anything it helps speed up testing.