Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, didn't he? Shocking! Let me ask you a rather simple question: who does approve of your methods?

The Bosmer. Also: Practically all Telvanni I know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So next time we ask him, "What have you been up to?" and he answers, "What haven't I been up to?" we'll know exactly what he means!

Makes me wish we could confront him about what we saw on Artaeum again.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He was probably trying to remember our names, but he couldn't, and so he just called us "pal" a lot.

Did he already call us that in the base game? Somehow I can't remember.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And I wouldn't put it past some of our former associates to send us off on the grunt work while they went to the nearest tavern to do their fair share of the work.

Because that's the reasonable thing to do if the whole world is in danger and the situation is urgent.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It would be nice to have some of these main quest npcs have a home base in game, a place you can find and talk to them again, or see them being a person who lives in this world. Honestly, why doesn't Vanny have a home in the game? Or at least an office in one of the Mages Guild buildings, maybe with a cot behind a screen so at least we know he can catch some sleep sometimes. He really shouldn't have to rely on getting kidnapped in order to have a sleeping mat.

I'm actually amazed that Revus is one of the few npcs who own a house (he's lucky that Arvs-Drelen is still family property in TES3) - while there are many who are supposed to be more important public figures in Tamriel who seem to be permanently homeless. Generally, housing seems to be a problem - many cities are tiny, there are never enough houses for all the people we come across (the fact that we, on the other hand, own several homes of all sizes, makes it even stranger).

The more I think about it, the demographic least affected by homelessness seems to be members of House Telvanni. Although most inhabitants of Vvardenfell seem to be rather on the lucky side... It's the only region where the inhabitants/buildings quota isn't totally skewed.

Syldras wrote: »

I was disappointed, by the way, that Isobel's parents just disappear forever after the end of her questline. Why didn't they just remain at their home?! It's not like they disturb anyone there, and the place is already in the game anyway. It would have been nice to be able to visit them again, even if they had just a few lines of smalltalk. I hope they might return to their house once Isobel's questline gets a continuation (I think it's probable that some day it will).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The number of npcs in Solstice without voice lines really surprised me. Are they really just there as pickpocket/blade of woe targets, and so not deserving of any personality?

It's sad, isn't it? It always contributed a lot to the atmosphere. It's these small things that help with immersion, and show love for this fictional world.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Same. Every conversation I have with him now, those scenes are in the back of my mind. When is the best time to bring up to someone that you once saw echoes of their past?

When there's no way for them to escape.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The urgency is only for us. What's funny is that in the beginning of the Solstice quest chain, after Faranor borks the portals, cackles, and smoke bombs out, I told Azah to take it easy and recuperate after his ordeal because I didn't want him tagging along with me when I went looking for the representatives. So in that case it was me sending him to the tavern while I did all the work. Worth it.

Why can't an interesting person accompany us for once?! I mean, Fennorian was certainly pleasant to be around in Greymoor, but other than that? I'm still a little annoyed we didn't get Divayth Fyr or Revus for Necrom. Meln was okay, but it was disappointing that they usually had a habit to have recurrent characters for that (like Eveli or Lyris), but not in that chapter.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I hope all the companions get more quests. Let's see some character growth!

I'm quite sure we'll get that, including possible romance. I just hope it will be well-written and consistent with the older writing. Would be sad to see something similar to the thing that happened to Jakarn.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It also makes me more invested in the city if I can make any type of connection with the npcs. When Sunhold got attacked in the main story, and we were supposed to rush to save it and make sure npcs didn't get killed and sucked into soul reapers, I didn't recognize a single townie npc along the path. And then afterwards, when the critical Argonian is talking to some Altmer outside the crafting area, she's asking him if he's all right, because he was supposedly in the area where the attack occurred. I feel like telling her, "You don't have to be worried; he wasn't there." But, eh, let him have his moment of sympathy; it's probably all the dialogue he's going to get for a very long time and at least he has some.

If characterization lacks depth, it's not easy to relate to an npc. And that's certainly the case if that person says, well, nothing at all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right. Ok, well. Maybe someday! If we can visit him in his prisoner quarters on eastern Solstice, we can bring it up then. Won't be awkward at all.

They could make that one of those "funny" dialogue options. Or "brash" or what it was supposed to be. Like: "So how was it, being reunited with your ex?" - Although I'd prefer a more serious conversation about that topic. And more in-depth, of course.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I did like Meln, but he wasn't around all that much. Instead we were stuck with Leramil....

And Gadayn. Except for the time where he had disappeared. Until he, of course, returned. Like every other more central character since Elsweyr or so. Until the latest content, but who knows how that might end.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would have loved to have Fyr accompany me around Necrom; don't see enough of him.

It's strange. He's an interesting character and I always had the impression that people tend to like him or enjoy having him in quests, but we haven't heard of him a whole while now. Last time was in Fargrave, on that one auction, 5 years ago or when was that?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And Revus, oh he's such a darling, and I know he would have had some good ideas to help out as we went. Or at least something different to try.

It would have been a nice occasion for more lore on him, and for, at least some, character development.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, and based on the amount of complaining that went on about Bastian, they might try to "improve" his character, mistaking complete reversion of character for character growth. But hopefully they keep in mind who these characters are, and not who some players want them to be.

Complaints... That's actually something I had been wondering about earlier. How many people might complain about what we think to be improvements? Would there be people who would absolutely not appreciate the idea we have of Mannimarco and Vanny at all? Would there be people who would complain about giving "evil" characters deeper lore that might make them seem more like nuanced people instead of just the evil baddie to defeat?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

At any rate, I guess I was just supposed to want to beat up Worm Cultists.

The funniest thing is that I felt no motivation to kill them. Yes, yes, they attacked the city and what not. But then again, how many of them just joined because they wanted a warm place to sleep and some food? Honestly, I sneaked my way around them and didn't kill more than necessary for the quest to progress.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Haha, oh, don't put that idea out there! I would like it if, after all the hullaballoo on Solstice is over, we could sit down with Vanny and have a really good conversation. I doubt he'd ever really open up to our characters, but he might feel we've earned the right to know about his history with Mannimarco, after all we've just been through. He did have that one line in the prologue about how long he'd been opposing Mannimarco, and he sounded so weary and sad, and I really felt for him and wanted to explore that more. But of course, we had to be sent off in a rush to the next destination.

Do we even get long talks anymore? I loved that one with Sotha Sil at the ending of CWC. It's really my favorite dialogue of this whole game, even now, 8 years later. And I know I'm not the only person.

I really hope there's awareness that there are many users who like longer in-depth conversations - and not everything has to be fast-paced and full of explosions and flashy effects. Of course we don't need to have long philosophical debates with Stibbons or Rigurt, but in case of some central characters, especially such as Vanny or Mannimarco, who have a big influence on TES lore as a whole, it would be really interesting to talk more detailedly with them, not only to characterize them as people, but also because they are an interesting lore source. Who else could tell us about Artaeum and what happened soon after Mannimarco was expelled, if not the people directly involved?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Long enough ago that I don't quite remember it. Of course, I've only done Blackwood and Fargrave the one time. Regardless, he's a good character they don't do enough with.

I have nothing against returning characters at all, but the focus seems limited somehow, the way it is now. How often did we see Razum-dar return? Or Naryu? I think in case of Naryu it was 4 times now and in Razum-dar's even 6 times? Is that really necessary? Are the devs aware that some people don't like them and actually get annoyed when ever they see those mugs appear again somewhere? Those characters don't appeal to everyone, as people have individual likes and dislikes. Also, braggy behaviour doesn't "function" well in some cultures (where the general "moral" stance is: no matter what you achieved, be humble and keep it to yourself - even a single word of self-praise will lead to people thinking of a person as a pompous idiot), so the view on such characters is generally more negative. Of course that doesn't mean that such characters have to be avoided - some people like them, after all - but a broader variety of characters would help appealing to more different people.

And why do we get dialogue options to flirt with Razum-dar but none to be unfriendly to him? Feels like it's pre-defined how we should feel about him. And I can't say I like that. (Honestly, I'd rather see his head on a pike - or Naryu's, or Jakarn's - than any Worm Cultist's. Unfortunately, I don't think it was actually intended to elicit this feeling. And in Jakarn's case it's especially sad since I actually liked him in the base game. It was High Isle which ruined that character for me. As a witty conman, he was amusing; as a sleazy what-ever-that-was - not anymore.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Speaking of Revus, there's this on his UESP page I don't quite understand.
He is an ancestor of Baladas Demnevanni.
This would mean that Revus Demnevanni would be very old, as Baladas as a descendant predates the "Empire of Man" and Gnisis.
Ok, obviously I understand what it means that he's an ancestor of Baladas Demnevanni, but I don't know why that fact shows he's very old. How does Baladas as a descendant predate Gnisis? What's the "Empire of Man"? Should I just be looking this stuff up on my own and not bothering you with these pesky questions?

I know that part of his article, and I disagree with it. While I generally find UESP very reliable and love the good work the people are doing, that's a thing where someone took a short statement too seriously. From my point of view, not every statement somewhere should be seen as a fact - but it should also be considered whether it's plausible. Another example for something stated on UESP that I'd disagree with would be defining Mannimarco an Aldmer, just because he said so - but it doesn't fit what we saw on Artaeum (back then he was clearly a young man) and it doesn't fit what Vanny wrote either (he made a statement that Mannimarco was a young novice when he arrived on Artaeum), and also it's easy to imagine why Mannimarco claims to be an Aldmer - to boast, to seem more important and be able to build a myth about himself with that basis, or even symbolically to make a claim on a right of becoming a god (again, like the elves are said to have been once, before they became mortals).

So, in case of Revus, that misconception is based on two things: In TES 3, Baladas claimed to be ages old, older than any human. And then there was an statement in an ESO stream (I think made by Gina? Not sure about that), where someone asked in chat whether Revus was an ancestor to Baladas, and Gina spontaneously replied with yes (probably not having in mind Baladas' dialogue in TES3 - which is normal, I also don't know anything some character said in some TES game years or even decades ago). The problem is here, that people were drawing conclusions: Baladas claimed to be older than mankind, so Revus as an ancestor must be even older. They don't consider that Gina's statement might have just been a little mistake (like they can normally happen in a spontaneous situation), or even that, which is of course also not unplausible, Baladas might have just been bragging. It's a case of people taking statements too literally and as a fact without wondering about their plausibility (Is it plausible that Revus is millenia old, considering he is not a powerful godlike wizard? Certainly not).

And also, what people strangely seem to forget: Just because Revus is related to Baladas somehow, he doesn't have to be a direct parental ancestor, like in great great great grandfather or something like that. Strangely, they always make that assumption, while they could be related in any possible way - all we know is that they're part of the same family somehow. Baladas might also be something like a great nephew, or something even more remote. We don't know whether Revus has any siblings, or whether his parents have, or his grandparents. Or well, I think he does mention an aunt at some point, and there is also a Demnevanni mentioned in a note in Fargrave (as the first one who had explored some place, unfortunately I can't remember where exactly it was), and there's also a lorebook that mentions a Demnevanni being a politician in Cyrodiil. So the family doesn't seem to be that small.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I just did the Cliffs of Failure quest in Coldharbour, where you come across three villains from the base game zones: Thallik Wormfather, Angof, and Lady Estre. In talking to them, you get a little more insight into their character--they aren't redeemed (well, maybe Angof goes furthest in that direction) and it didn't make me think they should have been spared, but it was more context for their actions. So if they can do that for relatively minor villains, why not someone as impactful as Mannimarco?

I really hope they will do that at some point - at best in Part 2 of the current story

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I honestly didn't consider sneaking. Did we have someone with us on that quest? Some "helpful" pal from the Fellowship? Or were they just conveniently out of the way, shouting directions to us? Eh, however it was, I just slashed and stabbed my way through cultists like a good little soldier.

Nah, we were alone. And my character is a quite headstrong one, so no matter what anyone tells him to do, he will act (as much as it is possible in this game) according to his own opinion and ideas.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We don't get long talks, but we should, where they are appropriate. Like you, I love the Sotha Sil conversation at the end of CWC. Every time I do that zone (and it's one of my absolute favorite zones) I look forward to the chance to talk to him. I think that's part of the problem with more recent content--we don't get those opportunities to really talk to these people and develop more of a bond or friendship or even just greater understanding. I don't need Vanny to consider me a friend (and I've wondered if he even allows himself to have friends after what happened with Mannimarco), but I do need him to have more in-depth conversation options at the appropriate times.

I think there might be players who aren't interested in this at all - but since the dialogue would probably be mostly optional and one could finish the quest without reading all of it, I see no problem with that. And the players who have a focus on narrations and lore would certainly profit.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They definitely focus too much on perceived "fan favorites" when bringing back characters. I do like to see returning npcs, as one quest experience with them isn't enough when they are well-drawn characters. Of course everyone is going to have their own favorites, but if those favorites aren't part of the popular crowd, they unfortunately won't get seen again. (In the other thread, someone mentioned how much they like Holgunn, and he's never made a second appearance.) And even though I do like Razum-dar and Naryu, they have both been brought back too often. And if, like you, people actively dislike them, then they definitely show up too much! I also liked Jakarn in base game and find it sad his character was simplified down to whatever he is now.

It's truly a pity. I can think of several characters I found interesting who have not made their return since and most probably never will, even if they seemed interesting. At least to me, personally. In general, I'd be in favor of more diversity when it comes to returning characters. The fan favorites seem mostly so... same-ish? But I think I already complained about that

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Revus might be many things, but literally older than dirt doesn't fit with what I know of him.

Maybe he time-travelled. Accidentally Or he has a horrible dark secret!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Part 2 really has a heavy load to carry story-wise! Haha, if we had our way, it would be the most robust content ever seen.

It could probably be stretched out over 3 years or so.

But honestly, if Part 2 will be much more heavy on content/lore than Part 1, I see another risk we already talked about some time ago, somewhere (I think it was while discussing the prologue some months ago?): It might feel unrealistic or rushed again if too much content is squeezed in just a few quests that are supposed to take place within a short time. I mean, putting a lot of background lore in lorebooks would be one thing, but when it comes to recent events - it might end really chaotically if just too much happens within a too short timespan.

Generally I'm wondering what I'll think about Part 2 once I've played through it. I often found the Q4 dlcs a tad more interesting than the summer chapter, in those years where we had both. It mostly felt, even if the summer chapter was bigger in quantity, that it mostly served to build a basis for the story - and the more interesting things happened at the end of the story in Q4.

Will we see something like that again this time? Something even more rushed and chaotic in terms of what's happening in the story than the ending of Part 1? Honestly, it "worries" me a little if I imagine the ending of the whole story to be basically like the ending of Part 1 but multiplied by 10 (More explosions! More drama! More things randomly teleported through daedric realms!)...

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

My character should probably be less rigid in his adherence to orders. He's just such a good rule-following Altmer, you know? Maybe a few more years of association with less, shall we say, constrained individuals will loosen him up. (Assuming time keeps passing in game, that is. Hard to experience change and growth when stuck in time.)

Don't worry. My corrupting influence defies time and space.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure there are players who don't want to read a lot of conversation and/or lore. That's fine; they don't have to. But to not have it at all makes the game seem so much smaller and less interesting. What drew me to ESO was the ability to play around in the world I already knew and enjoyed from the single player titles. I really am here for the story.

That's the same reason I joined. Never played a MMO before, never been interested in it specifically (and still am not), and even after 9 years of ESO I can say that I'm not actually a fan of any MMO aspect this game has, I just accept and ignore them. I'm here for lore and stories about Tamriel only, and to see places I'll probably never going to see in the singleplayer TES games (especially since it's almost 14 years since the last release now - if it will be about 15 years between games from now on, well, I might still see 3 more TES games before I die of old age, or maybe even just 2, and that's it; we already know the next one will most probably Hammerfell, but would I ever see Summerset in one of the singleplayer games, or Valenwood, or Morrowind's mainland?). To be honest, after that long time since Skyrim I sometimes wonder whether TES6 will ever be released at all. It wouldn't make sense to end the series at this point, because it was extremely successful, but no release within 14 years just feels so strange...? 4 years, or even 6 seem fine. But over a decade?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ha, you may have, but that doesn't make it any less true! The fan favorites do seem to represent a particular style of character. There have been a few returning characters who don't fit the mold: Eveli and Quen, for example. But we only had Quen for one quest arc, and I don't know if that puts her in quite the same category. And Eveli is...well, I don't like her, so I can't be fair to her character. But at least she's not brash and quippy. But I agree: I want them to draw from a wider pool of characters to bring back.

I'd also like to see more variety in companions. Why are all female companions very young? And having no male mer companion is also rather unsatisfying

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Time travel, especially accidental, I could see him doing. But horrible dark secret? No, no, he's not cagey enough for that!

Who knows how many people he's accidentally killed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There is the chance they will try to do too much in a short span. As far as I know, this season model is meant to be contained within the time frame of the season--meaning the story will be all wrapped up during it, and won't continue on. So that certainly could lead to a jam-packed, hectic main quest where it's go-go rush-rush no time to talk or think. I wonder, given what we know of the eastern half, what side quests there will look like. With a reverse planemeld and being cut off from everything else, things must be pretty desperate for any non cultists trapped over there. Surely that makes for more serious quests. I mean, in a place that is like Coldharbour, I expect a similar tone to Coldharbour.

I do hope so. And I think we already discussed once how keeping one part rather light-hearted and the other one very dark might not be the best idea (I mean, I personally don't mind dark quests at all, but it still feels rather strange if two parts of the same story have an extreme split inbetween, also in terms of atmosphere). But who knows. The Deadlands quests also seemed rather humorous sometimes, especially for what one would normally expect of that location. Don't get me wrong: I hope that the story will be rather serious... I'm just saying we can't be sure that it absolutely will.

And while we're at it: I hope there won't be more random flirting! And no weird comic relief scenes or quips in situations that should feel serious. These things don't help, they don't improve the experience, but usually only destroy the atmosphere. If a situation is dire, I want it to feel dire.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Since I've been questing through Coldharbour again on an alt, I've noticed some similarities or parallels with the sequel (recruiting all the locals being the most obvious one). Today I completed the quest in the Vile Laboratory, where you meet the soul-meld mage: two souls, one body. Made me wonder if something similar is going on with Wormblood and Mannimarco. If so, that could be an interesting aspect of part 2. Sure, before "the incident," Wormblood wanted the same thing Mannimarco wanted. Would he still now that his body has been usurped? Could he be in there fighting for dominance? In the Coldharbour quest, the souls were merged as an experiment, and presumably the other body was destroyed, because un-merging the souls requires the player to choose which one of the mages survives. But since Mannimarco's body is still hanging around...I don't know. It's a similar situation, but obviously not the same. It just got me thinking of possibilities.

A lot could be made, story-wise, about that state of two souls in one body (I'm rather sure that Wormblood is still there, be it suppressed or maybe fully merged with Mannimarco, like that lich in Oblivion we were talking about). Or possession or what ever to call what happened now. But will we see it being part of the new story? Unfortunately I can imagine the events at the end of Part 1 being treated as nothing but a plot device for Mannimarco's return, with Wormblood never even being mentioned again.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've played several other MMOs, and they all had their good aspects and bad aspects.

For me, the "bad aspects" already start at "interacting with people"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is a crazy long time since Skyrim was initially released, and if TES6 ever comes out, it'll be quite a shift to get back into single player Tamriel.

I still play the other TES singleplayer games at times, so that's not a big shift for me. I'm wondering though which percentage of time I would use for TES6 and which for ESO - probably depends very much on whether (or how much) new content releases ESO will have at that point. If it's just 1 story content release at some time of the year (that might keep one busy for a week or two at most), most of my attention will be on TES6 for sure. Unless I start missing Morrowind...

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have no idea what's taking so long to release it. I don't keep up with game studio news, really. I just pay attention when a game I'm interested in is near release.

I don't know either. I don't follow gaming news that closely, but I don't think there was ever any info. Just that one short aerial view trailer years ago and nothing since then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And, yes please to a male mer companion...but not just any male mer ! I'm actually a bit worried about what they will do with a male mer companion, personality wise. I don't expect every companion to suit me, but if we finally get a male mer and he's awful, I might actually cry. Or curse. One of those.

Considering they seem to go against typical cultural habits in companions so often, it might get awful. Unless it's a scholarly city-dwelling Bosmer, maybe. That would be fine.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, so my alt got to rescue Vanny in Coldharbour today! Going through this quest again (been years since I last did it) I noticed something about the Great Mage: he's far more friendly in Coldharbour than he is at any other point in the game. He even called me "my friend" at one point. And when he rejoins the mages in the Mages Guild in the Hollow City, they all call him "old friend" (even Gabrielle, which I thought was strange, because how old is she even supposed to be? has she known Vanny since childhood?). One of the mages, an older dunmer named Manis Dral, even calls Vanny "the old braggart." It was really quite nice to see Vanny among friends, and so I suppose I have to revise an earlier idea I had--that he doesn't really make friends anymore.

They might see him as a friend, but does he really feel for them in the same intensity? I mean, he does often come across as rather unemotional (or emotionally repressed). And then there are cases where people assume they're friends with someone, but it's rather one-sided.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And here's a funny thing about Vanny. Or at least about his magicka essence (because, you know, he split himself into his three essences when he was captured to prevent...well, the point is, you rescue him four times: once for each of his essences and then when you find his body and put him all back together again). When you find his magicka essence and talk to it, it's chained up and being drained and says, "Ah, the pain! It's exquisite!" Well! That's a side the Great Mage I had forgotten about!

Really? Well, his magicka essence seems to lack a little self-control then, to openly talk about that. Although it could also be interpreted in a few different ways. We already noticed he seems to seek for a bit more extreme situations at times, which could also be an attempt to feel anything despite the usual emotional numbness. Or it might have an cathartic effect. And then, extreme pain causes serotonin and endorphine emissions which can lead to very weird things (speaking from experience, I had a small surgery once with anesthesia wearing off much too early, before it was even finished, and while it was about the most painful thing I ever experienced - and on top of that getting stiched felt extremely strange - , it sent me into a laughing fit).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Every time I think about playing Morrowind again, I'm daunted by how aged the game is. This is why they need to remaster it!

Strangely, that doesn't bother me at all. The graphics are of course dated, but after a few hours, I'm completely used to it again. Sometimes I wonder whether it might not even be the old graphics that help me getting extremely immersed, because like with books, it somehow triggers my imagination more; while games with better graphics are closer to movies and are more about watching and less about imagining for me.

But still, of course I wouldn't mind a remaster at all. I'd even love it! But I'm not sure whether we'll ever see one (an official one - I'm a bit more optimistic about Skywind). Main problems would probably be the scope of that game, and also having some topics that might lead to disapprovement today.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Scholarly city-dwelling Bosmer would be good. Sort of like Eveli's brother, Beragon (was that his name?). But if they make a supercilious Altmer I won't be too pleased. In that case, I want them to go against the grain.

Yes, his name was Beragon and I'd really not mind a Bosmer companion like him.

As for conceited Altmer, I somehow find that amusing. But it would probably lead to another of those "companion learns to be better or rather becomes a socially acceptable person according to the common morals and norms" stories, and those bore me. Everyone thinking the same things and having the same moral stances also bores me in real life, to be honest. I rather have discussions with people completely contrary to myself than with individuals who are just... overall agreeable.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, he does seem rather pleased to see everyone, and he talks to them like one would talk to a friend. But Coldharbour Vanny is different from later Vanny, so perhaps he wasn't that invested in the friendships with them. Maybe he was just glad to be all put together again and would have greeted anyone with that friendly demeanor. (Though he was rightfully suspicious of the Groundskeeper.)

I somehow perceived him as just happy to be alive. Or maybe there's a part of him that would actually like to have closer connections to people, but he usually suppresses that for certain reasons, and the emotionally straining situation broke his usual self-control, so that part of him resurfaced for a short while.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So, that experience sounds horrifying!

Oh, I didn't find it scary at all. It was a controlled situation, after all, I knew what was happening, I had medical professionals by my side, and most of all, we could communicate and what probably helped a lot was that they gave me the agency to decide how we should go on. I had the choice whether I'd want anaesthesia to be renewed (that would have been 3 or 4 injections if I remember right, or maybe even 5?), but it would have meant waiting for about 20 minutes, maybe even longer, with the open surgical wound, until it takes effect (my body is weird in that regard, it always takes an eternity until anaesthesia sets in, and then it doesn't last long either, which was the thing that let to the miscalculation in this case in the first place - that along with the surgical procedure taking longer than expected because my skin turned out to be extremely sturdy and hard to cut; they had the change scalpels several times because they kept getting blunt so fast). Or, we could just go through with it, because it were just 10 or 15 minutes left until it's finished anyway. So I decided for that. The pain was truly horrible at first, but at some point the laughter set in, and goosebumps, and a strong feeling of embarrassment since I was sure they'd probably think I had lost my mind. But they assured me it was a normal (potential) reaction. In hindsight I found it an interesting experience and am actually glad I could make it. It's also not bad to know that in case of an emergency, pain will be no problem for me. I mean, of course it hurt like hell, and it did again after the strange emotional shift subsided again (but that was already after surgery), and in general, it was super weird, but anyway

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But as to Vanny, his essences were interesting in their own right. One of them (stamina, I think) says: The Great Mage himself couldn't have done any better, but don't tell him I said that! It really does seem like they are repressed forms of his personality.

I think he's generally an extremely repressed character. That's probably his way to move on somehow, after all that happened. Would he openly confront himself with all that... I think that would lead to an emotional breakdown.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You really think they wouldn't remaster it due to subject matter? Or do you mean they'd redo some of it to make it less extreme?

I'd honestly deem both of it possible. Everything might cause a potential scandal today (and such a scandal means potential problems when it comes to revenue - let alone a possible damage of reputation), especially since an increasing number of people seems unable or unwilling to differenciate between fiction and reality, and therefore expects fiction to conform to today's moral standards. It's truly a problem; how free can art be, with such expectations? And that goes both for some creators who want to make everything in a story a "useful" lesson, as well as for parts of the audience who think that every story, no matter what it's about, is supposed to be such a lesson (and because of that, if the story is about something unethical, and does not clearly condemn it, the author must be criticised for "propagating" such horrible things).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In my life, I've had enough discussions with people completely contrary to myself to know it's frustrating more than anything else.

I think one big factor is whether a person discusses in a respectful way and is willing to accept that people make different experiences and form different world views. I've met people I respect highly, and they treat me the same way, despite a very contrary view in philosophy, way of living, habits, and morals. And I tend to find these discussions most interesting because they present me a completely different way of thinking and aspects of a topic I might have never thought about before, and probably would have never come to wonder about my whole life, because my own experiences just don't lead to these ideas because they cause a different focus. I see these discussions as a way of learning. Also, I like my views to be tested, because if they withstand, that means something.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

A conceited Altmer who is completely unimpressed by us, no matter what, could be amusing, but then why would such an Altmer want to spend any time with us anyway?

They could have some goal they might need help with, whether they'd want to admit it or not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Why would our rapport with them ever go up?

They might be impressed upon realizing that we actually have useful skills, whether they like it or not

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess that's a better reasoning than "inconsistent writing".

Maybe he has mood swings as often as he has hairstyle changes.

But of course it's also possible that, how to put it? Another case of Jakarn?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I'm going to stick with horrifying. I mean, that's the kind of body horror that makes its way into movies meant to unsettle people.

Growing a third arm would have been body horror! Or maybe not, as that might be practical under some circumstances. Hm... But parasites would certainly classify. Or rotting alive. A simple surgery, on the other hand? Not for me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He might be as obsessed with Mannimarco as Mannimarco is with him. But as for confronting himself, I think he's probably at the point where he doesn't think there's anything to confront.

I have the impression he knows very well that there's some things he doesn't want to ever look into again because they scare him, so he tries very hard to not to think about them. Still, they might be gnawing on him unconsciously. His childhood, the memories of his time with Mannimarco (which certainly are still present somewhere), maybe feelings from back then, of fear, helplessness, desparation. He keeps all that well hidden under the facade of the "Great Mage" who is always calm and controlled, and shows no weakness or emotions.

It's not surprising then that some aspects might find a way to resurface through something else, like certain strange hobbies - they need an outlet. And also, keeping that amount of self-control is certainly exhausting, if that's not someone's true nature; and we know that Vanny has originally not been like that at all. Of course people change when becoming older and emotionally more mature, but usually a sunny and warm character will not develop into someone very serious and almost cold most of the time. Not without a lot of trauma or self-denial.

But in one point I would fully believe he's actually not aware of it, and that's how obsessive he seems towards Mannimarco.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

While I think the morality issue has become more prominent lately, it's been there for a long time, really. That's why movies have ratings, and certain music got hit with "explicit lyrics" labels, and so forth.

But aren't those not just to make sure that specifically kids, who are usually believed to have not developed a strong ability to seperate fiction from reality yet, don't have access? I always had the feeling that, as long as the access is restricted to adults, narrations could be as immoral and gritty as the author wanted them to be.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, and let's not forget the old tried and true book banning craze, which is enjoying renewed popularity.

Okay, that's true of course. A common "habit" since antiquity. But they were not performed by societies that would be considered democratic, open and tolerant, from today's point of view.

Of course I'm also aware of different morals panics that were a topic over the decades on the last 2 centuries... Romance books, comics, heavy metal music, roleplaying games... all corrupting people with their horrible influence, of course. Although it was also mostly about youth, I think? Anyway, it had been calmer for a while about accusations like these.

What's new is that today, through social media, scandals may develop much faster and even a small group of people can cause one by organizing online, while some decades ago these people would have most probably never met anyone else sharing their opinion, especially if it clearly had been a case of misinterpretation or undue panic.

That does mean a higher risk. I know that some people have become very reluctant to make any (actually rather ordinary) statements online anymore due to the risk that someone could cause trouble, lots of trouble even if someone rallies a whole group of people against it. If that's a worry for some average person, it will certainly also be one for corporations whose reputation and revenue can negatively impacted by such things.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think the modern additions are the trigger warnings you can find at the beginning of books, or content warnings listed at the beginning of a movie or tv show on streaming platforms.

Their original purpose was providing people who might have suffered trauma info about a story's content so they can (temporarily) avoid media that could worsen their emotional condition. For some topics, I found this understandable. Meanwhile, I've seen a few warnings that seemed so mundane that they felt more like they were trivializing trauma. I fully understand that illness, poverty or divorce aren't nice to experience, but mentionings of beggars, an ill character, or a divorced couple in a novel are hardly a trauma trigger. Anyway, this seems less about morals (unless something changed or I missed something about it) but more about self-protection or something like that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to Morrowind--did they feel the need to change much content when it came to the Oblivion remaster? Maybe it could be as simple as sticking a game rating on and letting buyer beware.

Well, they completely changed a statue of Vanny (but no, not for unsafeness ) , and a few aspects in the character creation screen. "Sex: Male/female" got swapped for "Body: Type 1/2" (while retaining everything else, including gender-specific pronouns and clothing); and character stats aren't sex-specific anymore either (there were differences by a few points), instead they introduced a new option called "Origin", where you choose your region of birth. There are two different options for every playable race, heavily based on ESO it seems, so as a Breton you can choose either High Rock or the Systres, and as a Nord you may choose Eastern or Western Skyrim, for example.

But I still think Morrowind is a bit more extreme in some regards, compared to Oblivion, so they would probably change more aspects of it, if they ever do a remake at all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But then wouldn't they just be falling in line with all the others, and learning how to be better and nicer?

Finding someone, well, not bad, doesn't necessarily result in being friendlier to them, just as being friendly doesn't necessarily mean liking someone.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Being operated on while you're awake and aware and can feel the pain? That's what you call simple surgery?

For a long time in history, this was normal.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Do we know how old he's meant to be? 600 or so, I believe. He was eight when he ran away, and eleven when he was handed over to the Psijics.

I think there's a statement somewhere that he's supposed to be about 600, but it doesn't really fit the timeline. We know he was young when he left Artaeum, shortly after Mannimarco left. And he founded the Mages Guild soon after that. We have an approximate date for that founding: 2E 230. ESO takes place in 2E 582. That's about 350 years. Add to that maybe 20 years or so for his age when he left Artaeum. Vanny should definitely be under 400 years old. Unless he was no young man anymore but already over 200 when he left, but... lore says something different, and also it's hard to imagine that he spent another 200 years on Artaeum doing nothing while Mannimarco was already causing problems in Tamriel.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Did they maintain a prominent hold on his subconscious, or did they dwindle to faded memories? I wonder how that would play out in someone so long-lived. Do the essential parts of one's formative years remain that way, or do they get replaced by any of a myriad of other experiences over such a long course of time?

People tend to remember the impactful events most, no matter how long ago they were. I think that wouldn't be different here. Also in his own biography, where he mentions he won't get into detail about his childhood, it made the impression it still hurts him to think about that, so he avoids it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree that he really doesn't ever come across as "sunny and warm" (or, as the UESP article says, "light and warm heart"). He is quite complex as a character, once you look past the braggadocio. I still don't know, though, if introspection is something he thinks he needs.

I guess most of all, he doesn't want to, because it's painful. He's an intelligent person, so I'd guess he has a tendency to think too much about things rather than too little, and probably has memories and questions coming up all the time, and would have to actively reject them not to think about them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sounds like they are trying to tread the line between general inclusion and older gaming systems. I've never tried to recreate myself in any character creator for any game I've ever played (not even the Sims), but I understand people do, so adding those options is good for them. Though it does sound like they went only partway with the Oblivion character creator.

It doesn't feel meaningful to me, to be honest, if the only thing that happens is renaming the sexes to "type 1" and "type 2", and nothing else changed at all. Does it matter if "Type 1" isn't called "female" anymore, but has female physical characteristics, is called a "lady" and "she", wears skirts and can't have a beard, and "Type 2" isn't called "male" anymore, but has a male body shape, is called "sir" and "he", wears pants and can have a beard? Also, "type 2" can walk around topless, "type 1" can't. It's just an exchange of labels, not a real change in mindset or options. You still can't play anything else than those two options, can't choose to be adressed neutrally, can't even have a character with breasts wear pants or a character without breasts wear skirts (which would be something I do as a Dunmer player - I also own a Sarong and a comtemporary-style black "kilt" in real life, it's nice in summer). It's still heavily gendered, in a traditional way (male = pants, female = skirts). And honestly, it's fine to me, because that might be the traditional thing for the fictional society depicted, in that era we see (it wasn't even normalcy for the real world anymore when Oblivion was released in 2006 - pants have been a normal part of women's wardrobe for long at that time). From my point of view, I'd rather see that preserved, because it's part of the narration the way it was originally released. It shouldn't matter that our real world society is much more complex. If that change makes anyone happy, fine with me of course, I didn't look at those options for more than a few seconds anyway (there's not much to think about for me, I have already imagined the person I want to create before even opening that screen, and then just click the fitting buttons accordingly). I'm just wondering whether it truly helped anyone, being nothing more than relabeling, but not any real change.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, but how would it come across in game? Since we can't get into the internal thoughts of the npcs when they're interacting with us, how would someone finding us not as bad as they thought be communicated? I guess the tried and true journal. Then when they found out we'd read their journal, they'd be back to their original feelings about us.

Would we need to know it in detail? I'd also just assume someone won't find me that bad if they tag along with me all the time Or assume they'd become even more hostile if they truly dislike me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't live in history, though, and in my worldview being operated on like that is an extreme case.

I have a rather strong mindset of "Have people ever survived this? Then it can't be that bad and I'll survive it too." It's not unhelpful when disaster strikes once more.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I agree that people do remember the impactful events. I'm just wondering how overall significant they remain over such a very long span of time. Impactful events from my young life don't have as strong a hold on my mind as they used to when I was, say, in my twenties. I don't say he doesn't remember it, or that it doesn't still have some sway on him, but it might not be as intense as it used to be, after so long. Or perhaps not on an every day basis. There might be moments when the memories occur with a sharper hit, particularly if he never really dealt with the emotional trauma of it. There's just something about the length of time he's lived that makes me wonder about the relative strength of those early experiences.

It's really hard to say. Probably also depends on the intensity of the event? And of course whether one has ever found one's peace with it. I often think wounds don't really heal if one doesn't face the pain but just tries to suppress all memories. Then again, this is just my personal impression. Also, I'm not that old yet, so I can't really say how I'll be thinking about my past in 2 or 3 decades or so, or even later.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is possible that he's avoiding the pain like people tend to do. Or replacing the feelings generated by it with easier to manage emotions. Poor Vanny, destined to never find peace. (I mean that sincerely; his fate is so tragic).

He can't even have some happier times before his ultimate fate; or let's say I doubt they'd really be happy in the end. Probably only lead to new disappointments, making everything only worse.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess they could put it in the text part of the rapport description. When you hit max rapport with them, instead of it saying, "companion thinks you're great and wonderful!" it could say, "companion finds your presence tolerable in small doses." Which, honestly, would make me laugh.

That would be a solution. And I'd really love so see such a companion for once

Of course that might seem a little complicating if we consider the later implementation of companion romance, but then again, for such a character, "You're bearable." might be the best compliment you can get and already mean they appreciate you more than anyone else and would possibly consider spending time with you for a bit longer.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, that's just making me too sad for him. Maybe he can have a few happy afternoons between now and then. Somehow.

You mean like getting kidnapped so he forgets all these things for a while because he's focused too much on the feeling of dread caused by his captivity and a potential live-threatening situation? Or getting tortured by whatever machine that was in Coldharbour, with the pain blocking out all other thoughts and feelings? Now that sounds even sadder, I know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, actually, that's a different level than what we were assigning to the fictitious Altmer companion. Anyway, the main point being, not all "romances" should look the same.

I'm not sure how optimistic I should be in that regard...

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was thinking more of a quiet afternoon where he could, I dunno, work on a new magic spell without worrying about the fate of Tamriel for once. He must have things he likes to do that don't involve purposeful abduction or magicka draining machines. Or maybe he could spend time with a cute wolf pup or saber cub.

Maybe he secretly owns a poodle he named Mannimarco.

He owned an Indrik once - maybe - , but even that was lost, or stolen by some horrible person, at some point. Of maybe he had to give it away because its flashy effects caused him migraine.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Galerion's_Indrik

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I know. Of the games I've played that did have romance elements, very few were done really well. I really hope, if they implement it in this game, they don't tie achievements to it. Maybe one generic, "entered into a romance with a companion" could work, but to have an achievement for romancing each companion wouldn't sit well with me. Too checklist gamey.

Technically, it would certainly be possible, but have they ever made any achievement that non-specific? I think it's always related to one specific character or place?

Honestly I don't even like that there's an achievement for levelling every single companion now, because I just might not find each one of them interesting. And if I don't find someone interesting, I don't really want to go through the process to level that character to max both in rapport and skills (of course I'm aware that I don't have to, and I know I will never complete 100% of achievements anyway, but still).

I dislike it even more now that companions are sold seperately, because if you don't like one, you won't buy that one, and then that achievement remains unfinished forever (it does show up in the achievement list even if you don't own the companion, right?). And not even specifically the achievements only about that companion, but there's also one for each year that includes both companions released in that year. So since I find Tanlorin horribly annoying (while I love Zerith-var), I'll never get the Zerith-var/Tanlorin achievement completed.

It's like it is, and I can accept that. But somehow it makes me think that it might be the same when they introduce companion romance. And that would be a pity since, I also don't like the thought of that becoming something to just get done with to check it off the list.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The flavor text on that indrik shows a tendency I don't much care for where they don't commit to any lore details. I get it's not much as far as lore goes--a flashy mount in a crate--but if it was his, just say it. Why hedge about with "maybe"? It's not like Vanny's dead yet; someone could just ask him: "Hey, did you ever own a golden indrik?"

Sometimes they present the lore text as a quote and also give the name of the person who is supposed to have made that statement. In this case I could imagine it being said by some kind of possibly shady peddler (although that would lead to the question where they got a golden indrik from), but in this case, the text box doesn't include any name. It's actually not even in quotation marks, so it might not even be thought of as an in-world statement of an unreliable narrator. Is that a new tendency in their flavor texts? I know that the text for Vanny's robe also had no fictional author given.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do like the idea of him having a companion animal (poodle or otherwise) that he can home to and spend a few happy moments with every day. But I guess for that to work, he'd have to have a home to begin with.

But who cares for the pet when he's on one of his kidnapping trips again?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have no problem ignoring achievements, so not completing every romance achievement wouldn't bother me. The most I'm ever pushed to do an achievement is when it has a reward I want, like a dye. In the case of the companions, they have some moderately useful perks, and a romance achievement involving them might have something similar. But, I can always do without that, too.

I think the "problem" might truly be that they are often using the achievement to track certain things now, basically giving an overview of all kinds of things you can potentially do or encounter in a zone. I believe random encounters weren't tracked through achievements either, in the first few years? There were actually quite a few things that did not show up in any list back then, I think.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think it might be, because a lot of them do have author credit, as it were. I wonder why the change? Without it being attributed to anyone, it does make it seem like an official statement from ZOS.

To me it does feel like a statement, just of a different kind. If a fictional author is given, or just quotation marks, for me it's indicated that it's supposed to be a character's statement. So I'd consider it a point of view from inside the narration or fictional world, from a possibly biased person, and the statement being generally unreliable. While if no fictional author is given and the text is not set in quotation marks, it feels more like a (serious) general info/statement by the devs (for example reliable lore info). Which sometimes doesn't actually fit either, in case of that indrik, for example, because that's clearly not a descriptive factual lore text by its wording.

And in case of that "learning is stupid; just look important, that's what counts" statement in that other flavor text , I think it comes across as more negative to me exactly because it has no fictional author - because if some, let's say, conman would make that statement, or some dumb but wealthy noble who just cares for social status, that would be one thing - but if it looks like an actual, general statement, on the other hand... (I'm not saying I truly believe it was meant as such, I'm just stating how it feels like when it's, compared to other statements, not attributed to a fictional person and not presented as a quote.)

As for why they changed that: Good question. I certainly prefer it the way it had been earlier.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I like the shady peddler idea, though they'd have to be pretty bold to make a claim like that. What if it got back to Vanny's ears? Especially if it had been his. I assume golden indriks aren't exactly common.

The peddler would probably speculate on being long gone with the money before you get to resolve the situation.

As for the rarity, it somehow looks like the Luminous Indrik, just more straining for the eyes. Maybe they fed it some kind of neon-yellow dye. You know, like that stuff to dye hydrangea flowers, just yellow instead of blue.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I will. And at least I can be trusted to not try to make a profit off selling a poodle that "might have" belonged to the Great Mage.

I somehow like the idea of Mannimarco, the black poodle. Of course an allusion. It would just fit.