Hard Group Checks in U47 Dungeons

Artim_X · July 3

Companions need a wait here or interact with this (respurces, levers, etc.) features. They also need to auto interrupt bosses when player gets trapped in a oneshot interrupt mechanic (ex: while companion is active, using interrupt when trapped will order the companion to interrupt boss/adds).

sshogrin · July 3

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

Reginald_leBlem · July 3

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

In what planet does forcing players who are capable of solo farming a dungeon into a group helping fix the problem of speed running/fake tanking?????

How does that argument make sense to you? Because it's clear to me that if there is anything worth farming in those dungeons for a dps, it's going to make a lot of people unhappy because those high damage, capable players ARE NOT going to wait around twiddling their thumbs for you to listen to every line of dialog between bosses. And if they are going to be doing 80% of the damage and know they can solo, they may as well speed up the process and que as tank.

LadyGP · July 3

twisttop138 wrote: »

I'm of two minds really. I think group content should be group content but this pressure plate stuff isnt the way. Make interesting mechanics that challenge group players, have that be the reason it can't be soloed. Then if someone can solo it, good on them. It makes it so everyone wins. Us group players have content that's challenging and people that wanna really challenge themselves can I do understand that not everyone wants to group, and pugs can be a crapshoot. I recommend to everyone that asks to join a guild that fits you. They're out there. My social guild has regular weekly rostered vet dungeon training runs. They're so popular that we have to add more. I think if more solo players could find a positive experience in group content they would do it more. It just works, cause we always stop if someone wants to loot or listen to the dialogue or if the group agrees we go fast.

I agree with you here - make it harder and if a solo person does it then amazing for them.

Not to get too dark.. but there are alot of reason people want to play solo (depression being a big one). Alot of people use ESO to escape...People t

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

Player desnsity isn't good enough to add that option. You think the queue finder is broken now just wait till they add more options into the finder.

sshogrin · July 3

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

In what planet does forcing players who are capable of solo farming a dungeon into a group helping fix the problem of speed running/fake tanking?????

How does that argument make sense to you? Because it's clear to me that if there is anything worth farming in those dungeons for a dps, it's going to make a lot of people unhappy because those high damage, capable players ARE NOT going to wait around twiddling their thumbs for you to listen to every line of dialog between bosses. And if they are going to be doing 80% of the damage and know they can solo, they may as well speed up the process and que as tank.

You don't have to stop in DLC dungeons for the quest. I don't listen to the dialogue when getting skill points, but in base game dungeons, you have to wait for the dialogue.

Again, YOU are missing the point of group dungeons, it's a group instance. If you don't want to do them as a group, you don't have to do group instances...it's that easy.
As far as fake tanking because you want a quicker queue, that is very selfish. How about you make a real tank and actually learn how to tank? How about making a real healer and learn how to heal?
I do all roles, you learn a lot more about the game if you do other roles than just DD. I hear a lot of DDs complain about the tanks and healers when the DDs die. This is usually due to the DDs standing in stupid or being in the wrong place because they want to be on the top of the DD damage done logs. I OT vet trials all the time, I hear my DDs say crap all the time because they are in the wrong place, then blame the tanks because they're standing next to me or behind me and get cleaved. I have gotten to the point of telling them to stop standing by me then, that's on YOU, not the tanks.
Again, it's group content, to be done with a group. Fake tanks that leave group because they wanted a quick random for transmutes and XP are screwing everybody else, it's selfish to be like that. Not having the patience to let someone else get the quest done in a dungeon is selfish. If you want to be selfish, then don't queue for group dungeons. Just go into the dungeon by yourself. If there's an instance that you have to be in a group to complete, then you have the option to not do it, or actually not be selfish and let others at least complete the quest. Fake queueing has become a major problem in the game.

Credible_Joe · July 3

This thread is starting to backslide, so I've edited my initial post and summarized the sticking points that have been discussed so far. Hopefully they don't keep repeating.

Credible_Joe wrote: »

EDIT: Summarizing some of the back and forth so as to avoid off-topic and repeated discourse in the latest pages.

TL;DR: sentiments supporting or opposing content designed for groups are immaterial, including my own above sentiments sympathetic to solo players. The core of the issue is that this design, and any other design that excludes and punishes alternative gameplay styles only produces a net negative experience. Those affected only have a bad time, the rest are completely unaffected. The design vector should reward and incentivize group play instead.

Those are the assertions I'm making, any discourse related to group vs solo play is off-topic.
Argument: Group content should be designed for groups and solo players shouldn't complain about it
Rebuttal:

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Whether or not the design is intended for a group, holding a big red stop sign for any demographic of players is a bad experience for the excluded players.

There are better ways to incentivize group play. The point of this topic isn't that all content should be designed around solo play; it's that a hard check that just stops solo players from participating does not bring engagement or joy to anyone-- it JUST excludes players from engaging with this content, and is a bad time.

Net negative experience. The people it isn't for aren't affected, the people it is for feel dejected and excluded.

Argument: No one ever hears similar complaints about trials or arenas
Rebuttal:

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Everyone talking about trials or who think group content should be for groups are off topic.

Pressure plates that serve no purpose except to exclude solo players; or even groups smaller than what the designers want at any given point are just straight up not enjoyable for anyone. No one that's done that in direfrost ever thought "this made my gameplay experience better," except to be contrary to sentiments expressed in this and similar threads.

Trials don't need hard group checks. The ones in Aetherial Archive are completely redundant and are just as bad as anywhere else they're found. 11-counts and lower can complete that content; requiring a full raid of twelve with the assumption that no one will drop part way through for ANY reason just makes it frustrating to engage with the content at all. Everywhere else the difficulty of encounters designed with twelve players in mind strongly incentivize group play without arbitrarily tripping us.

The design point should be "The more the merrier,". It should NOT be "You need this amount of friends to engage with this content."

So to be clear, sentiments for or against group play notwithstanding, this thread criticizes this particular element of group enforcement.

Argument: There might be mechanics further in the dungeon that require multiple players, and the initial check simply enforces that requirement
Rebuttal (warning, this one's long):

Credible_Joe wrote: »

This angle is valid, but plays into the larger issue of designing puzzles, or more generally, problems for players to solve in video games.

Take just the pressure plate check at the beginning, for example. Any competent adventurer would find a suitably sized rock, or a pile of rocks, or otherwise figure out a way to weigh down the second pressure plate in order to advance. But, according to the design of the dungeon, the only solution we're allowed is to bring a second player. Companions don't count.

This goes deeper past video game design and is an issue for dungeon masters in TTRPGs. We've all heard this story-- a DM that's trying to flex their brain power designs a puzzle and has a very specific solution they want their players to spend time figuring out.

They don't consider that one of the players is at least as smart as they are, or even just more creative or cunning, and proposes an alternative solution that the DM did not consider, but is just as valid. The DM has two options:
Commit to the original solution, contrive an excuse as to why the player's alternative is not effective

Accept the alternative solution and improvise from there

Most agree that option 1 is a bad time and option 2 is good DMing. Unfortunately, video game designers do not have access to option two. Their solutions to problems they've designed are baked in.

So, good design in video games accounts for the limits of the medium and will avoid open-ended problems for players as much as possible. Any time we think "there's an obvious solution to this problem that we don't have access to purely because of the limits of the game," there has been a misstep in design. Examples include the small slopes we can't traverse Northward in Pokemon, gatekeeper NPCs we would feasibly be able to fight and defeat, sneak past, or trick in a lot of RPGs, locked doors that are impossible to pick for some reason, even when you have the actual Skeleton Key.

I said in an earlier reply, sentiments for or against content that's designed around or for groups are immaterial. This thread is criticizing the return of Option 1 design that we've seen in the past that has only brought frustration to players.

Maybe there's content further in the dungeon that requires multiple players, but again-- making a problem with an exclusive solution is the root issue here. Telling us we're not equipped to do this on our own and that we can't win without someone else present puts a limit on our characters that assumes we're incapable of finding some other solution to that problem. That's not a good feeling.

Reginald_leBlem · July 3

sshogrin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

In what planet does forcing players who are capable of solo farming a dungeon into a group helping fix the problem of speed running/fake tanking?????

How does that argument make sense to you? Because it's clear to me that if there is anything worth farming in those dungeons for a dps, it's going to make a lot of people unhappy because those high damage, capable players ARE NOT going to wait around twiddling their thumbs for you to listen to every line of dialog between bosses. And if they are going to be doing 80% of the damage and know they can solo, they may as well speed up the process and que as tank.

You don't have to stop in DLC dungeons for the quest. I don't listen to the dialogue when getting skill points, but in base game dungeons, you have to wait for the dialogue.

Again, YOU are missing the point of group dungeons, it's a group instance. If you don't want to do them as a group, you don't have to do group instances...it's that easy.
As far as fake tanking because you want a quicker queue, that is very selfish. How about you make a real tank and actually learn how to tank? How about making a real healer and learn how to heal?
I do all roles, you learn a lot more about the game if you do other roles than just DD. I hear a lot of DDs complain about the tanks and healers when the DDs die. This is usually due to the DDs standing in stupid or being in the wrong place because they want to be on the top of the DD damage done logs. I OT vet trials all the time, I hear my DDs say crap all the time because they are in the wrong place, then blame the tanks because they're standing next to me or behind me and get cleaved. I have gotten to the point of telling them to stop standing by me then, that's on YOU, not the tanks.
Again, it's group content, to be done with a group. Fake tanks that leave group because they wanted a quick random for transmutes and XP are screwing everybody else, it's selfish to be like that. Not having the patience to let someone else get the quest done in a dungeon is selfish. If you want to be selfish, then don't queue for group dungeons. Just go into the dungeon by yourself. If there's an instance that you have to be in a group to complete, then you have the option to not do it, or actually not be selfish and let others at least complete the quest. Fake queueing has become a major problem in the game.

The sooner you learn you can't control other people, the better. You don't have to like or agree with fake tanking to understand that artificially locking someone out of farming the content solo will not improve speed running or fake support roles.

You can think it's selfish and complain all you want. Doesn't change reality.

spartaxoxo · July 3

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

The sooner you learn you can't control other people, the better. You don't have to like or agree with fake tanking to understand that artificially locking someone out of farming the content solo will not improve speed running or fake support roles.

You can think it's selfish and complain all you want. Doesn't change reality.

Frankly this may increase speed running. All those people who know they won't be able to hear the story anyway but want the skill point are going to entering the queue. You think I'm going slow down for a bunch of people who are rejoicing that I can't hear the story because I'll be forced to run with them? Because I won't. I'll taunt the bosses and let them grab quest because I'm not a jerk. But when I do group dungeons in PUGs I try to be fast because that's what's most efficient for those farming it. It's not great for actually hearing the story though.

Orbital78 · July 3

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

The sooner you learn you can't control other people, the better. You don't have to like or agree with fake tanking to understand that artificially locking someone out of farming the content solo will not improve speed running or fake support roles.

You can think it's selfish and complain all you want. Doesn't change reality.

Frankly this may increase speed running. All those people who know they won't be able to hear the story anyway but want the skill point are going to entering the queue. You think I'm going slow down for a bunch of people who are rejoicing that I can't hear the story because I'll be forced to run with them? Because I won't. I'll taunt the bosses and let them grab quest because I'm not a jerk. But when I do group dungeons in PUGs I try to be fast because that's what's most efficient for those farming it. It's not great for actually hearing the story though.

It for sure will, they are force to.

LPapirius · July 3

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I've never seen an MMO with companions. But since we have them, they should be able to fill the role of a person if needed when it comes to standing on a pressure plate or similar mechanic. Something tells me that companion will not know the mechanics needed if such a "gate" is implemented.

sarahthes · July 3

LPapirius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I've never seen an MMO with companions. But since we have them, they should be able to fill the role of a person if needed when it comes to standing on a pressure plate or similar mechanic. Something tells me that companion will not know the mechanics needed if such a "gate" is implemented.

Wow and FFXIV both have npc party members for running certain types of dungeon.

adriant1978 · July 3

sarahthes wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I've never seen an MMO with companions. But since we have them, they should be able to fill the role of a person if needed when it comes to standing on a pressure plate or similar mechanic. Something tells me that companion will not know the mechanics needed if such a "gate" is implemented.

Wow and FFXIV both have npc party members for running certain types of dungeon.

SWTOR has companions too.

Elvenheart · July 3

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

I think the people complaining about the use of pressure plates in a four-man dungeon do fully understand what group content is meant to be. They would not be complaining if they try to solo a four-man dungeon and the bosses are just very well done regarding mechanics making the bosses too difficult to solo. They could say at least they tried! But to block even the attempt to solo even if that attempt would not be successful due to the difficulty of the bosses or the cleverness of the mechanics is the heart of the issue.

There have been various reasons discussed as to why someone might want to try to solo a dungeon, such as difficulty finding groups that go at the pace you might want, people using fake roles to get in faster, people just wanting to challenge themselves, etc., and all of those reasons are valid. And I have never, ever seen anyone complain that they could not solo a trial, but ZOS has only put these artificial solo checks in just a few older four-man dungeons so the feeling was they were listening to the players who would like to try their hand at soloing them and not doing that anymore. For us to discover this was just our imagination and ZOS wasn’t listening at all is really disheartening.

Darrett · July 3

The main issue I see with alternative approaches is you’re likely to cut out much larger swathes of the player base if you do things like add DPS checks.

I personally don’t mind minor mechanical elements that make grouping required, but if you make it so that a group needs to be able to deal a specific amount of damage or die, a lot of the more casual player base will be shut out of content at that point. I don’t really see a great solution to the problem.

mdjessup4906 · July 3

And even within ESO you can do almost 80% solo.

Sentiments like this, what's this even mean? Dungeons have quests too, and some pretty good ones. But I can understand these people not knowing that since unless your solo or have good friends available every time your desperate for a skill point, you'll never hear them. Unless you dont care about the quests, in which case why are you complaining about those that do?

Not to get too dark.. but there are alot of reason people want to play solo (depression being a big one)

Fr. Soloing normals gave me the confidence to start playing in groups, because if I could solo it, then I knew I could pull my weight. Im (mostly) past that anxiety/insecurity now, but how many new or even existing solo players could be like me, who the "DuNgEoNs ArE FoR GrOuPs" crowd are championing gatekeeping out of becoming great players? Which is worse, having people in group who want to be there, or forcing noskills to group and then getting pissed when they fail miserably?

We found the target audience for subclassing. This guy.
All dressed up and no where to go.

Lolwut? We been soloing dungeons since way before subclassing was ever a thing. Because its fun. Does anyone really need a better reason than that?

But AA!

AA pressure plates are stupid too. The perfect solution to all this is to have mechs like this scale to the number of players currently in group. Because no one ever gets kicked from the game and cant log back in, right. Right???

Coral aerie about to become my favorite dungeon.

Orbital78 · July 3

adriant1978 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I've never seen an MMO with companions. But since we have them, they should be able to fill the role of a person if needed when it comes to standing on a pressure plate or similar mechanic. Something tells me that companion will not know the mechanics needed if such a "gate" is implemented.

Wow and FFXIV both have npc party members for running certain types of dungeon.

SWTOR has companions too.

I actually enjoyed the SWTOR companion story lines much more, maybe it was the variability in choice and they felt much more like your companion.

gc0018 · July 3

It doesn't increase the amount of player entering the dungeon, so it seems like doing nothing good. But there must be a reason why Devs want to add it.

So very likely, they want to reduce the server load by starting less dungeons which serves less players. In other word, they don't want to further spend any money on the servers because they made less money from U46 and contest pass.

sshogrin · July 4

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

In what planet does forcing players who are capable of solo farming a dungeon into a group helping fix the problem of speed running/fake tanking?????

How does that argument make sense to you? Because it's clear to me that if there is anything worth farming in those dungeons for a dps, it's going to make a lot of people unhappy because those high damage, capable players ARE NOT going to wait around twiddling their thumbs for you to listen to every line of dialog between bosses. And if they are going to be doing 80% of the damage and know they can solo, they may as well speed up the process and que as tank.

You don't have to stop in DLC dungeons for the quest. I don't listen to the dialogue when getting skill points, but in base game dungeons, you have to wait for the dialogue.

Again, YOU are missing the point of group dungeons, it's a group instance. If you don't want to do them as a group, you don't have to do group instances...it's that easy.
As far as fake tanking because you want a quicker queue, that is very selfish. How about you make a real tank and actually learn how to tank? How about making a real healer and learn how to heal?
I do all roles, you learn a lot more about the game if you do other roles than just DD. I hear a lot of DDs complain about the tanks and healers when the DDs die. This is usually due to the DDs standing in stupid or being in the wrong place because they want to be on the top of the DD damage done logs. I OT vet trials all the time, I hear my DDs say crap all the time because they are in the wrong place, then blame the tanks because they're standing next to me or behind me and get cleaved. I have gotten to the point of telling them to stop standing by me then, that's on YOU, not the tanks.
Again, it's group content, to be done with a group. Fake tanks that leave group because they wanted a quick random for transmutes and XP are screwing everybody else, it's selfish to be like that. Not having the patience to let someone else get the quest done in a dungeon is selfish. If you want to be selfish, then don't queue for group dungeons. Just go into the dungeon by yourself. If there's an instance that you have to be in a group to complete, then you have the option to not do it, or actually not be selfish and let others at least complete the quest. Fake queueing has become a major problem in the game.

The sooner you learn you can't control other people, the better. You don't have to like or agree with fake tanking to understand that artificially locking someone out of farming the content solo will not improve speed running or fake support roles.

You can think it's selfish and complain all you want. Doesn't change reality.

Apparently you didn't understand or comprehend in my comment about putting an option in the dungeon finder for doing speed runs. We also have the group finder that people can use to post for speed runs. When people just run through to the final boss, they end up "controlling" what other people do in the game, which is something you should consider.
Again, it's group content, you don't have to do it if you can't play and get along with others. If you just want to play solo, that's fine, play solo. If you want to queue as a fake tank, then put a taunt on and actually tank with your dps. Again, if you want to speed run farm content, that's what the group finder is for. There are plenty of options that people just refuse to use.
Being selfish like that is the reality, you trying to say it's not doesn't change that reality.

Vulkunne · July 4

The best way to motivate people is to draw their interest into what they enjoy doing, in other words, coercion and trying to force the envelop should never be the first-choice solution. It's much better to have people motivated and ready to move forward from the start. I think that as a dev, again just what I think, the 'event' or 'delve' or whatever it is, should motivate people towards a certain type of gameplay before penalizing them into a certain type of gameplay. Otherwise, what tends to happen, is someone with a reason will come along and you'll keep having to moving the goal post when it was probably in the wrong place to begin with.

It also needs to be said, that some dungeons aren't intended to be solo'd. I think that's the real problem that needs to be addressed separately instead of making a design barrier and potentially creating another problem for someone else to have to deal with later. Especially for something that they may realize later on was the wrong approach and should have been fixed in a different way. And buffing boss health and such to the extreme isn't the solution because it can just as easily be lowered again for perfectly justifiable reasons that will present themselves in due time.

Vaqual · July 4

Grouping for the sake of grouping is just not the right design philosophy. Why should the devs care whether someone wants to do a trial with 6 players, or a dungeon with 1-3 players? Ideally the content should be hard enough for the average player to WANT to exhaust the maximum allowed participant number. Proficient players should not be denied the satisfaction of challenging themselves by approaching content with a lower number of players. It is a great motivator for many to play with goals like this in mind.
The real problem is that many people these days just feel personally offended by difficulty and challenging fights.

Reginald_leBlem · July 4

sshogrin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

In what planet does forcing players who are capable of solo farming a dungeon into a group helping fix the problem of speed running/fake tanking?????

How does that argument make sense to you? Because it's clear to me that if there is anything worth farming in those dungeons for a dps, it's going to make a lot of people unhappy because those high damage, capable players ARE NOT going to wait around twiddling their thumbs for you to listen to every line of dialog between bosses. And if they are going to be doing 80% of the damage and know they can solo, they may as well speed up the process and que as tank.

You don't have to stop in DLC dungeons for the quest. I don't listen to the dialogue when getting skill points, but in base game dungeons, you have to wait for the dialogue.

Again, YOU are missing the point of group dungeons, it's a group instance. If you don't want to do them as a group, you don't have to do group instances...it's that easy.
As far as fake tanking because you want a quicker queue, that is very selfish. How about you make a real tank and actually learn how to tank? How about making a real healer and learn how to heal?
I do all roles, you learn a lot more about the game if you do other roles than just DD. I hear a lot of DDs complain about the tanks and healers when the DDs die. This is usually due to the DDs standing in stupid or being in the wrong place because they want to be on the top of the DD damage done logs. I OT vet trials all the time, I hear my DDs say crap all the time because they are in the wrong place, then blame the tanks because they're standing next to me or behind me and get cleaved. I have gotten to the point of telling them to stop standing by me then, that's on YOU, not the tanks.
Again, it's group content, to be done with a group. Fake tanks that leave group because they wanted a quick random for transmutes and XP are screwing everybody else, it's selfish to be like that. Not having the patience to let someone else get the quest done in a dungeon is selfish. If you want to be selfish, then don't queue for group dungeons. Just go into the dungeon by yourself. If there's an instance that you have to be in a group to complete, then you have the option to not do it, or actually not be selfish and let others at least complete the quest. Fake queueing has become a major problem in the game.

The sooner you learn you can't control other people, the better. You don't have to like or agree with fake tanking to understand that artificially locking someone out of farming the content solo will not improve speed running or fake support roles.

You can think it's selfish and complain all you want. Doesn't change reality.

Apparently you didn't understand or comprehend in my comment about putting an option in the dungeon finder for doing speed runs. We also have the group finder that people can use to post for speed runs. When people just run through to the final boss, they end up "controlling" what other people do in the game, which is something you should consider.
Again, it's group content, you don't have to do it if you can't play and get along with others. If you just want to play solo, that's fine, play solo. If you want to queue as a fake tank, then put a taunt on and actually tank with your dps. Again, if you want to speed run farm content, that's what the group finder is for. There are plenty of options that people just refuse to use.
Being selfish like that is the reality, you trying to say it's not doesn't change that reality.

People are going to play how they want in the group finder. End of.

That has nothing to do with artificially locking a solo player out of a dungeon except it will put more people who aren't going to play the way you want them to into the group finder for that dungeon.

Joy_Division · July 4

I agree with the OP.

sshogrin · July 4

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

sshogrin wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

I really don't understand those who insist on 'Group dungeons are designed for groups.' Okay, that's true, but if someone wants to try to complete a group dungeon solo, how does that change anything for you? How does it ruin your experience?

Wouldn't it be better to have a game that makes everyone happy? Group players, duos, solo players, etc.?

What people are saying by "group dungeons are designed for groups" is that when people complain about not being able to do group content solo, they aren't getting what the idea of "group content" is. There is plenty of solo content in the game. AA trial you have to have all 12 players to complete. Some trials you don't have to have all 12, but AA has 12 pressure plates that have to b activated to get past certain areas.

The people that use the "Play as you want to play" argument have a point to a certain extent, but when they pug in as fake roles and speed run when people put in chat that they have the quest in a dungeon, and ignore that, are not allowing others to play as they want to play. It becomes selfish game play, and when doing group content, that doesn't include selfish play...it means you work with the group. I know for some, they may not like that, but if they don't want to deal with someone doing the quest, they can easily leave group and re-queue.

To be honest, I think they need to add an option in the dungeon finder for doing "speed runs", or be able to queue for both if you don't need the quest. Granted, there will be longer queues for either at some point in the day, but this would satisfy both play styles. We have had a real problem with fake role queueing, and when there's a more difficult dungeon, even on normal, that really requires a tank, you'll get people that drop instantly leaving the others having to wait for a new player to fill that role. We have too many DDs in the game and not enough support roles because tanking requires you to actually know the mechs and it's not a "glorious" role, same with healers. People don't like doing those roles...and that's a problem for the game.

While some people want to do things solo, that's fine....but you have to remember that group content is for a group, it's not a solo instance, so complaining about not being able to do group content solo is really a non-issue. As I've been told by people, you don't have to do the content. I think that ZOS is doing something about the fake queueing and the idea that group content is for groups.

In what planet does forcing players who are capable of solo farming a dungeon into a group helping fix the problem of speed running/fake tanking?????

How does that argument make sense to you? Because it's clear to me that if there is anything worth farming in those dungeons for a dps, it's going to make a lot of people unhappy because those high damage, capable players ARE NOT going to wait around twiddling their thumbs for you to listen to every line of dialog between bosses. And if they are going to be doing 80% of the damage and know they can solo, they may as well speed up the process and que as tank.

You don't have to stop in DLC dungeons for the quest. I don't listen to the dialogue when getting skill points, but in base game dungeons, you have to wait for the dialogue.

Again, YOU are missing the point of group dungeons, it's a group instance. If you don't want to do them as a group, you don't have to do group instances...it's that easy.
As far as fake tanking because you want a quicker queue, that is very selfish. How about you make a real tank and actually learn how to tank? How about making a real healer and learn how to heal?
I do all roles, you learn a lot more about the game if you do other roles than just DD. I hear a lot of DDs complain about the tanks and healers when the DDs die. This is usually due to the DDs standing in stupid or being in the wrong place because they want to be on the top of the DD damage done logs. I OT vet trials all the time, I hear my DDs say crap all the time because they are in the wrong place, then blame the tanks because they're standing next to me or behind me and get cleaved. I have gotten to the point of telling them to stop standing by me then, that's on YOU, not the tanks.
Again, it's group content, to be done with a group. Fake tanks that leave group because they wanted a quick random for transmutes and XP are screwing everybody else, it's selfish to be like that. Not having the patience to let someone else get the quest done in a dungeon is selfish. If you want to be selfish, then don't queue for group dungeons. Just go into the dungeon by yourself. If there's an instance that you have to be in a group to complete, then you have the option to not do it, or actually not be selfish and let others at least complete the quest. Fake queueing has become a major problem in the game.

The sooner you learn you can't control other people, the better. You don't have to like or agree with fake tanking to understand that artificially locking someone out of farming the content solo will not improve speed running or fake support roles.

You can think it's selfish and complain all you want. Doesn't change reality.

Apparently you didn't understand or comprehend in my comment about putting an option in the dungeon finder for doing speed runs. We also have the group finder that people can use to post for speed runs. When people just run through to the final boss, they end up "controlling" what other people do in the game, which is something you should consider.
Again, it's group content, you don't have to do it if you can't play and get along with others. If you just want to play solo, that's fine, play solo. If you want to queue as a fake tank, then put a taunt on and actually tank with your dps. Again, if you want to speed run farm content, that's what the group finder is for. There are plenty of options that people just refuse to use.
Being selfish like that is the reality, you trying to say it's not doesn't change that reality.

People are going to play how they want in the group finder. End of.

That has nothing to do with artificially locking a solo player out of a dungeon except it will put more people who aren't going to play the way you want them to into the group finder for that dungeon.

So use the Group Finder for like minded people, don't queue for a random in the dungeon finder. There are options. I guess you just don't understand that.
There is no "artificially locking a solo player out of a dungeon", it looks like a real hard lock. Again, you don't have to do all the content if you refuse to play in a group and get along with others. Group content is group content, it isn't solo content.

If you want to speed farm dungeons, use the Group Finder, not the Dungeon Finder. You can easily find like minded individuals by posting that way.

Cooperharley · July 4

Yea not a fan personally, either

I think if you're a solo player, you should have the option to solo every dungeon, albeit with it being more difficult than bringing 1-3 other players, just as it is now

Don't think you should be able to really solo raids with how ESO's scaling is obviously

I think these mechs are fine, but they should just implement a check where it sees the number of people in the group and allows this mechanic to be present if it's possible to do, and if there's a solo player, these gates are just open or something.

RealLoveBVB · July 4

Why isn't there a complaint why trials can't be soloed yet?

DenverRalphy · July 4

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Why isn't there a complaint why trials can't be soloed yet?

Tie a desirable reward to Daily Trial mechanic that can be farmed, and you'll see them pop within minutes.

Varana · July 4

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Why isn't there a complaint why trials can't be soloed yet?

Because for most people here, it's not about making the dungeon easier so it can be soloed.

It's about preventing even the attempt at soloing it even though the content is easy enough that it could be.

AA has been brought up as a negative example a couple of times, I'm sure you've noticed that.

Trials enforce group play by mechanics and boss design (mostly "too much health" which makes the fights really boring and drawn-out). That's fine. This is about preventing people from trying for no other reason than spite.

Also, trials have been soloed. (Okay, Asylum Sanctorum has been soloed, not sure about others being completed, but some individual trial bosses can absolutely be taken on solo.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwYV5CKXPpk

SkaiFaith · July 4

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Surely adding forced group mechanics to DLC Dungeons that are bundled in the Content Pass to justify the price increase vs a Chapter is going to entice more people to buy it. Right guys??

After all, the thing that most solo players who play the Chapter/C.Pass zone want is being forced to have a group to play the rest of the stuff they paid for. Haven't you seen all the threads asking for more stuff like Direfrost Keep pressure plates?

To me this is the point.
I'm not inherently against having these mechanics somewhere, but the fact I was forced to own these DLC Dungeons, with these mechanics, only because I wanted to play Solstice story at launch... When I diligently avoided owning any other DLC dungeon... This is not ok.

sshogrin · July 4

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Surely adding forced group mechanics to DLC Dungeons that are bundled in the Content Pass to justify the price increase vs a Chapter is going to entice more people to buy it. Right guys??

After all, the thing that most solo players who play the Chapter/C.Pass zone want is being forced to have a group to play the rest of the stuff they paid for. Haven't you seen all the threads asking for more stuff like Direfrost Keep pressure plates?

To me this is the point.
I'm not inherently against having these mechanics somewhere, but the fact I was forced to own these DLC Dungeons, with these mechanics, only because I wanted to play Solstice story at launch... When I diligently avoided owning any other DLC dungeon... This is not ok.

You aren't forced to "own" those DLC dungeons, you're getting them for free for buying the content pass for Solstice.

Desiato · July 4

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Why isn't there a complaint why trials can't be soloed yet?

Once players get their companion groups in dungeons, that will be the next step.

To be clear, I'm actually in the middle of the arguments seen in this thread.

I think group content is important in an MMO, and it should not be designed to be completed solo. There are a lot of skyrim fans who have been converted to mmo players because the allure of group content nudged them to try it and they found they enjoyed it. It is important for the health for the game that this process continues.

I'm also not opposed to meaningful group mechanics in dungeons that requires multiple players. We see this in trials. But it won't happen in dungeons for reasons that are obvious to any experienced player that utilizes the group finder.

What I am opposed to is a cheap mechanic such as pressure plates that offers no meaningful gameplay and eliminates the possibility of capable players to challenge themselves by completing group content solo. Again, if it was something like vdsr twins, great! But another direfrost keep? That's hurting solo players for no good reason.