Hard Group Checks in U47 Dungeons

AzuraFan · July 1

I'm not surprised. I've noticed that the game seems to be moving towards more group play. This is just another example of that. A bit tone deaf, given the calls for doing dungeons with companions, or a story mode, and threads asking for changes in the dungeons that aren't already soloable to make them soloable.

Soarora · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

MMO does not mean FORCED GROUP.

You are not forced.

You choose to restrict yourself, therefore you can not do content which breaks your own (not the games) restrictions.

It is indeed 4-man content, not a solo arena. Hopefully there's mechanics that require 2 people too because if it is just the bridge then that's silly.

jecks33 · July 1

ZOS should know by now that there's an ever-growing community of solo players. Okay, dungeons aren't designed to be played solo (highly debatable...), so give us more solo content!
In 10 years we only have 2 arenas (I'm not counting the Endless Archive that's designed for 2 players).

Adaarye · July 1

It's awesome! I can do my housing and this new "feature" will give me more time to try out other games.

IF you look hard enough, there is always a silver lining. As a long time ESO player, I learned that when they nerfed the heck out of HA builds in a total ableist move.

Catagami · July 1

I'm a bit of two minds on this. Or at least on the idea of forced group content in dungeons.

On the one hand I can see that as a game dev you would like to use the options of group content to make challenges that require groups, for more intricate and interesting experiences...
But on the other hand I do enjoy soloing dungeons, and this seems to add nothing interesting beyond a hard check to see if you are in a group.

It's not even in combat. Before we even discuss the reasons this shouldn't be here. (excluding part of the playerbase that enjoys the challenge of soloing dungeons.)
Maybe we should ask why this should be here? Because I can not see any added value in standing on two pressure plates after killing some enemies.

Cellithor · July 1

I don't see the issue. Group dungeon means exactly that; a dungeon to be completed with a group of players.

ESO is very solo friendly in most aspects, but it is still a MMO. I personally don't have any issues PuGing most dungeons on group finder. If you don't like the group finder, it is really not hard to join one of the many guilds begging for members in zone chat. Hell, you can even search out guilds that are dedicated to running dungeons and join one of those.

If you are that hellbent on doing everything solo, then you will inevitably run into content limitations. That's not "hostile" game design. It's just what happens when you play a MMO and choose to go it alone.

jaws343 · July 1

Catagami wrote: »

I'm a bit of two minds on this. Or at least on the idea of forced group content in dungeons.

On the one hand I can see that as a game dev you would like to use the options of group content to make challenges that require groups, for more intricate and interesting experiences...
But on the other hand I do enjoy soloing dungeons, and this seems to add nothing interesting beyond a hard check to see if you are in a group.

It's not even in combat. Before we even discuss the reasons this shouldn't be here. (excluding part of the playerbase that enjoys the challenge of soloing dungeons.)
Maybe we should ask why this should be here? Because I can not see any added value in standing on two pressure plates after killing some enemies.

Exactly this. Fight mechanics that require teamwork I see zero problem with. Out of combat gating mechanics are ridiculous.

And honestly, for some, the desire to solo these dungeons is less about not wanting to join a group and more about convenience and challenge. Sure, I could spend 40 mins in a queue waiting for teammates to do a dungeon that I can easily solo, or I can just go to that dungeon and spend 30 mins in there soloing it to farm gear, or a lead, or whatever. Or, maybe I just want to test a build that isn't going to be challenged properly in the existing solo arenas we have now. Maybe I want to see if I can solo challenging 4 man content. Arbitrary gating mechanics add nothing to the experience for a group and only work to prevent creative gameplay.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 1

I mean, before we go and rage out about it (not saying I disagree with the sentiment BTW, I love soloing dungeons), maybe let's wait to see if it works like some of the newer pressure plates? Someone already said this, but for the Z'Baza fight in Coral Aerie, a solo player can still activate the pressure plate door - the amount of pressure plates required changes with the amount of people in the dungeon.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 1

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

MMO does not mean FORCED GROUP.

If you want to be pedantic about it, it's called a GROUP Dungeon for a reason.

ESO_player123 · July 1

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I mean, before we go and rage out about it (not saying I disagree with the sentiment BTW, I love soloing dungeons), maybe let's wait to see if it works like some of the newer pressure plates? Someone already said this, but for the Z'Baza fight in Coral Aerie, a solo player can still activate the pressure plate door - the amount of pressure plates required changes with the amount of people in the dungeon.

Post #9 answers that question: it requires at least 2 actual players. So, not like Z'Baza.

Elvenheart · July 1

Credible_Joe wrote: »

In the first dungeon showcased, right in the entrance, there is a Direfrost Pressure Plate check that prevents solo players from even starting the dungeon.

This is hostile design that disrespects player agency and signals an extremely negative "play the way we want you to" message to players with NPC companions, who want to challenge themselves, or simply want to enjoy the narrative of the dungeon without the pressure of randos in pickup groups or having to organize a guild event.

The community has consistently signaled that these hard group checks are not popular; ESPECIALLY with the introduction of NPC companions who should be able to perform these functions, but can't. I can't imagine where the sudden desire to constrain our gameplay came from; it's completely contrary to the rest of the signaling from the studio telling us we can play how we want.

I SOOO agree with this! To say I was disappointed that they did this with one of the new dungeons is an understatement. And his comment with asked for clarification, "...well, they are GROUP dungeons..." just irritated me to no end as something so disrespectful. It's like they have no idea about "speed runners" existing and ruining the runs for the rest of us who would like to try and find the secret bosses or read the dialogue. I KNOW they are group dungeons, but it has always been fun to try them just with a companion for the extra challenge, especially now that most of the time in a group we have to run through the dungeon as fast as we can to keep up or be automatically pulled along to the next boss and miss everything! ZOS, what were you thinking!?!?

ssewallb14_ESO · July 1

It's bizarre to me that they would put extra effort to actually remove value from their own content.

Especially in a game where hard solo content is non-existent at this point and they were literally getting free value for people who want a harder solo experience.

This is going to backfire in randoms too. The player who would've normally just solo farmed for the gear is now going to queue as tank, let someone hit the pad, then just ignore the group and run past everything.

RealLoveBVB · July 1

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'm not surprised. I've noticed that the game seems to be moving towards more group play. This is just another example of that. A bit tone deaf, given the calls for doing dungeons with companions, or a story mode, and threads asking for changes in the dungeons that aren't already soloable to make them soloable.

Could you give more examples which underlines your statement? Because the last updates were always based in favor of soloplay.
Companions - Replacing players with NPCs
Oakensoul ring - provides all buffs that usually other players apply on you
Subclassing - even better combos for solo play

Jaimeh · July 1

Credible_Joe wrote: »

This is hostile design that disrespects player agency and signals an extremely negative "play the way we want you to" message to players with NPC companions, who want to challenge themselves, or simply want to enjoy the narrative of the dungeon without the pressure of randos in pickup groups or having to organize a guild event.

''Play the way you want'' is not a blanket element that can override everything in the game. Group dungeons are designed around a 4-person group, and therefore should have group mechanics. The fact that we can solo group dungeons is an exception to that type of content, and shouldn't be the measure of how they should be designed. The game needs to encourage more group activities, imo. It's not a single-player TES game, it's an MMO and it's group content that keeps it healthy, between content releases.

rothan117 · July 1

Forced grouping advocates keep pushing the solo players out of the game then turn around and complain about low population and ZOS not having the budget to make big expansions and other content due to less money coming in. Never ceases to amaze me.

allochthons · July 1

ESO_player123 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I mean, before we go and rage out about it (not saying I disagree with the sentiment BTW, I love soloing dungeons), maybe let's wait to see if it works like some of the newer pressure plates? Someone already said this, but for the Z'Baza fight in Coral Aerie, a solo player can still activate the pressure plate door - the amount of pressure plates required changes with the amount of people in the dungeon.

Post #9 answers that question: it requires at least 2 actual players. So, not like Z'Baza.

This. During the stream when explaining the pressure plates, Finn made a point in saying that dungeons aren't "designed" to be soloed. And the plates are VERY far apart. Much further than any of the current gap closers.

I think this is a terrible design choice. We didn't see any of the mechanics in the dungeon by design, but if there aren't any combat mechs that require teamwork, an artificial barrier like this is very unwelcome to me. I don't solo many dungeons, but I get the appeal, and I've been in more than one Aetherian Archive run that had to be abandoned because we lost a player to a disconnect, or family emergency, etc. when we could easily finish if we didn't have to deal with the pressure pad mechanic.

Power creep is a reality in the game. Artificially blocking a play style that power creep allows (by ZoS's choice) is antithetical to "play how you want," or "you belong here."

I'm not saying all trials or even dungeons should be soloable. But make it due to a real mechanic, like the share the AoE mechs in Cloudrest or Sunspire. Not because we can't stand on a plate.

ESO_player123 · July 1

I wonder if these plates are only at the start of the dungeon or if this type of mechanic is present in several places like those levers in the Imperial prison. If only at the start and the rest on the dungeon is soloable, then I guess a new service could be advertised: "helping start dungeon X by serving as a paperweight".

Jokes aside, in the aforementioned Imperial Prison at least all the lorebooks are before the levers that require two players.

Hotdog_23 · July 2

I don’t mind the pressure plate per se, but the first time I do any dungeon, I do like to solo it to take my personal time to explore and enjoy the dungeon the first time at my own personal pace. Listen to all the dialog and read all the books and absorb/enjoy the story, look at the decor and design, and fully explore the dungeon. I can easily take 2–3 hours to fully explore and enjoy a dungeon when it first comes out.

Artificially removing this choice is tone-deaf on ZOS part. Guess I will have to ask someone to come in long enough to stand on the plate so I can enjoy it myself, which is dumb design. Please remove it or at least allow me to direct one of my companions to be able to stand on one of the plates.

Stay safe

Hapexamendios · July 2

Even if the dungeons are not meant to be played solo it doesn't mean they should have mechanics that prevent it.

Gankform · July 2

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

eso community, the most toxic community.. and the game dosnt feel MMO to me anymore.... looks like 70% of the base are solo players now...and the game easy as ***, 90% of the content solable...and for non solable (hard) content i need too much time to find players...

Meiox · July 2

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I personally like it.

It will require at least two human players. The lead encounter designer even made a crack that basically said "dungeons aren't intended to be soloed". Which really didn't go over well with a veray vocal number of players in the chat stream.

Personally I'm all in favor of forced group content. ESO has suffered too long from forced solo design. There are a couple/few other instances of it in the game, but not enough IMHO. The "play how you want" battlecry is often abused and misused.

Then they should make the content so hard, a solo player can't do it, but not this way

HatchetHaro · July 2

Soloing new Dungeons on Normal is my favourite way of experiencing Dungeon stories at my own pace without the influence of a group while still retaining a good amount of challenge for it to still feel incredibly fun.

Look, it's not like I'm not going to do Dungeons in a group as they are intended; I like engaging in challenging content with friends! I have all the Dungeon trifectas already! It's just that many people, including I, also appreciate the freedom to engage with a Dungeon's narrative without the pressure of coordinating with others.

Hard-limiting a Dungeon to only be possible in a group setting for no real reason is such a roundabout way of enforcing bad encounter design. Bringing up Direfrost Keep as an example is such a bad excuse, as literally the only group-check in that dungeon are the two pressure pads, and no real mechanics in any part of the rest of the Dungeon to enforce that. Besides, if you really want there to be pressure pads for some reason, well, there is a Group Event in the Lost City of the Na-Totambu that is activated by three sets of dual pressure pads, and even that has been changed to be solo-able.

Please reconsider that design decision. The group-check is artificial, arbitrary, provides no tangible benefit to anyone, and people are now out of a fantastic way to enjoy a Dungeon's story.

And if you really, really want to enforce a group-check, at the very least only do it on a boss mechanic, and even then, make it a thing only on Veteran or Hardmode.

Asikoo · July 2

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

And why do you believe this happens?

Varana · July 2

I object to the idea that me on my own is not a group. The voices in my head tell me otherwise.
I am a group of one.

---

If they want to encourage group play, then build mechanics for that.

And let players find creative ways around them.

Putting in trivial requirements that will never come up again later is just complete nonsense.

Major_Mangle · July 2

People saying it´s bad design that you can´t solo a group dungeon have no idea what "good/bad design" actually means. You liking or disliking something has absolutely nothing to do with it being good/bad design. What matters is the developers intention when creating something. I´ll explain:

If you design content with the intention of it being done as a group, and players find ways to do it without a group, that is PER DEFINITION a bad design simply because your intended design didn´t reach/fulfill the goal you had in mind, players may like it sure, but that doesn´t mean it´s well designed. The same thing can be said about the opposite. Take animation cancelling for example. Was it something that was intended when ZOS designed the combat system? No it wasn´t, so per definition it was a bad design, but people liked it so it was kept in the game anyway.

Anyway, the amount of solo content in the game vastly overshadows group content so complaining that there is a dungeon that requires at least 2 people is some major cope.

ApoAlaia · July 2

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

MMO does not mean FORCED GROUP.

If you want to be pedantic about it, it's called a GROUP Dungeon for a reason.

This point was quite assertively made by Finn during the stream when this matter was raised; I deliberately use 'assertive' in lieu of 'condescending' because there could be a language/culture barrier here.

I am not a native English speaker and I haven't spent any meaningful length of time in the US so the nuances of the spoken language might be lost to me.

The VOD is up in:

For full context start watching around the 15 minute mark; Finn comments on the subject around the 18 minute mark but listening to it without full context is not something I'd recommend because it makes it even easier to mischaracterize his words.

Orbital78 · July 2

Some farm normals solo to avoid issues with going at their pace, skipping trash, etc. Personally I don't care that much, just throw on a heal and pretend to be a support to get through it quickly. I usually prefer to do vets, so those are much harder to solo.

DenverRalphy · July 2

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

MMO does not mean FORCED GROUP.

If you want to be pedantic about it, it's called a GROUP Dungeon for a reason.

This point was quite assertively made by Finn during the stream when this matter was raised; I deliberately use 'assertive' in lieu of 'condescending' because there could be a language/culture barrier here.

I am not a native English speaker and I haven't spent any meaningful length of time in the US so the nuances of the spoken language might be lost to me.

The VOD is up in:

<snipped for brevity>

For full context start watching around the 15 minute mark; Finn comments on the subject around the 18 minute mark but listening to it without full context is not something I'd recommend because it makes it even easier to mischaracterize his words.

My impression is that it wasn't condescending, but not quite assertive either. It was more that he could see what Gina and Jessica were building up to before they could even get the words out, you could see the "oh good god, I know where this is going" look on his face, and as a result he presented his response in a manner that left no question that the subject was not open for debate. I guess it was more... "matter of fact" than assertive.

At least, that was how I read it.

ApoAlaia · July 2

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

MMO does not mean FORCED GROUP.

If you want to be pedantic about it, it's called a GROUP Dungeon for a reason.

This point was quite assertively made by Finn during the stream when this matter was raised; I deliberately use 'assertive' in lieu of 'condescending' because there could be a language/culture barrier here.

I am not a native English speaker and I haven't spent any meaningful length of time in the US so the nuances of the spoken language might be lost to me.

The VOD is up in:

<snipped for brevity>

For full context start watching around the 15 minute mark; Finn comments on the subject around the 18 minute mark but listening to it without full context is not something I'd recommend because it makes it even easier to mischaracterize his words.

My impression is that it wasn't condescending, but not quite assertive either. It was more that he could see what Gina and Jessica were building up to before they could even get the words out, you could see the "oh good god, I know where this is going" look on his face, and as a result he presented his response in a manner that left no question that the subject was not open for debate. I guess it was more... "matter of fact" than assertive.

At least, that was how I read it.

Maybe 'assertive' doesn't mean what I think it means either, will have to look it up; regardless we both 'read' the same 'message': that this wasn't an 'oversight' but a deliberate and thought through design choice that as you mention 'is here to stay', reinforced by his comment regarding Direfrost Keep's pressure plates.

Meiox · July 2

Major_Mangle wrote: »

People saying it´s bad design that you can´t solo a group dungeon have no idea what "good/bad design" actually means. You liking or disliking something has absolutely nothing to do with it being good/bad design. What matters is the developers intention when creating something. I´ll explain:

If you design content with the intention of it being done as a group, and players find ways to do it without a group, that is PER DEFINITION a bad design simply because your intended design didn´t reach/fulfill the goal you had in mind, players may like it sure, but that doesn´t mean it´s well designed. The same thing can be said about the opposite. Take animation cancelling for example. Was it something that was intended when ZOS designed the combat system? No it wasn´t, so per definition it was a bad design, but people liked it so it was kept in the game anyway.

Anyway, the amount of solo content in the game vastly overshadows group content so complaining that there is a dungeon that requires at least 2 people is some major cope.

How can something be designed for groups, when people can easily solo it?
Its like putting 2 pressure plates at the entrance of a delve and start calling it group content