Hard Group Checks in U47 Dungeons

Credible_Joe · July 1

In the first dungeon showcased, right in the entrance, there is a Direfrost Pressure Plate check that prevents solo players from even starting the dungeon.

Original text:

This is hostile design that disrespects player agency and signals an extremely negative "play the way we want you to" message to players with NPC companions, who want to challenge themselves, or simply want to enjoy the narrative of the dungeon without the pressure of randos in pickup groups or having to organize a guild event.

The community has consistently signaled that these hard group checks are not popular; ESPECIALLY with the introduction of NPC companions who should be able to perform these functions, but can't. I can't imagine where the sudden desire to constrain our gameplay came from; it's completely contrary to the rest of the signaling from the studio telling us we can play how we want.

EDIT: Summarizing some of the back and forth so as to avoid off-topic and repeated discourse in the latest pages.

TL;DR: sentiments supporting or opposing content designed for groups are immaterial, including my own above sentiments sympathetic to solo players. The core of the issue is that this design, and any other design that excludes and punishes alternative gameplay styles only produces a net negative experience. Those affected only have a bad time, the rest are completely unaffected. The design vector should reward and incentivize group play instead.

Those are the assertions I'm making, any discourse related to group vs solo play is off-topic.

Argument: Group content should be designed for groups and solo players shouldn't complain about it
- Rebuttal:
  
  Credible_Joe wrote: »
  
  Whether or not the design is intended for a group, holding a big red stop sign for any demographic of players is a bad experience for the excluded players.
  
  There are better ways to incentivize group play. The point of this topic isn't that all content should be designed around solo play; it's that a hard check that just stops solo players from participating does not bring engagement or joy to anyone-- it JUST excludes players from engaging with this content, and is a bad time.
  
  Net negative experience. The people it isn't for aren't affected, the people it is for feel dejected and excluded.
Argument: No one ever hears similar complaints about trials or arenas
- Rebuttal:
  
  Credible_Joe wrote: »
  
  Everyone talking about trials or who think group content should be for groups are off topic.
  
  Pressure plates that serve no purpose except to exclude solo players; or even groups smaller than what the designers want at any given point are just straight up not enjoyable for anyone. No one that's done that in direfrost ever thought "this made my gameplay experience better," except to be contrary to sentiments expressed in this and similar threads.
  
  Trials don't need hard group checks. The ones in Aetherial Archive are completely redundant and are just as bad as anywhere else they're found. 11-counts and lower can complete that content; requiring a full raid of twelve with the assumption that no one will drop part way through for ANY reason just makes it frustrating to engage with the content at all. Everywhere else the difficulty of encounters designed with twelve players in mind strongly incentivize group play without arbitrarily tripping us.
  
  The design point should be "The more the merrier,". It should NOT be "You need this amount of friends to engage with this content."
  
  So to be clear, sentiments for or against group play notwithstanding, this thread criticizes this particular element of group enforcement.
Argument: There might be mechanics further in the dungeon that require multiple players, and the initial check simply enforces that requirement
- Rebuttal (warning, this one's long):
  
  Credible_Joe wrote: »
  This angle is valid, but plays into the larger issue of designing puzzles, or more generally, problems for players to solve in video games.
  
  Take just the pressure plate check at the beginning, for example. Any competent adventurer would find a suitably sized rock, or a pile of rocks, or otherwise figure out a way to weigh down the second pressure plate in order to advance. But, according to the design of the dungeon, the only solution we're allowed is to bring a second player. Companions don't count.
  
  This goes deeper past video game design and is an issue for dungeon masters in TTRPGs. We've all heard this story-- a DM that's trying to flex their brain power designs a puzzle and has a very specific solution they want their players to spend time figuring out.
  
  They don't consider that one of the players is at least as smart as they are, or even just more creative or cunning, and proposes an alternative solution that the DM did not consider, but is just as valid. The DM has two options:
  1. Commit to the original solution, contrive an excuse as to why the player's alternative is not effective
  2. Accept the alternative solution and improvise from there
  Most agree that option 1 is a bad time and option 2 is good DMing. Unfortunately, video game designers do not have access to option two. Their solutions to problems they've designed are baked in.
  
  So, good design in video games accounts for the limits of the medium and will avoid open-ended problems for players as much as possible. Any time we think "there's an obvious solution to this problem that we don't have access to purely because of the limits of the game," there has been a misstep in design. Examples include the small slopes we can't traverse Northward in Pokemon, gatekeeper NPCs we would feasibly be able to fight and defeat, sneak past, or trick in a lot of RPGs, locked doors that are impossible to pick for some reason, even when you have the actual Skeleton Key.
  
  I said in an earlier reply, sentiments for or against content that's designed around or for groups are immaterial. This thread is criticizing the return of Option 1 design that we've seen in the past that has only brought frustration to players.
  
  Maybe there's content further in the dungeon that requires multiple players, but again-- making a problem with an exclusive solution is the root issue here. Telling us we're not equipped to do this on our own and that we can't win without someone else present puts a limit on our characters that assumes we're incapable of finding some other solution to that problem. That's not a good feeling.

valenwood_vegan · July 1

Yikes, that's certainly a statement if they're going in that direction with dungeons again.

A great example of why I would never buy something like the content pass before seeing the content, lol.

Major_Toughness · July 1

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

Credible_Joe · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

If every hard group check was removed from every group dungeon, we'd still be heavily incentivized to group up just for additional drops, both set piece and motif pages.

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

valenwood_vegan · July 1

Lol, well personally I love playing with my friends and do dungeons and trials with them regularly. But I do enjoy having other options when they aren't available when I wanna do something - and I mean options other than grouping with some random who wants to dictate how I should be playing.

Finisherofwar · July 1

Yes, limiting player options like this is unnecessary and a waste of development time. If the content is easy enough that it can be soloed then just make tougher content. If the content is tough enough then a player will naturally not be able to solo it.

Thysbe · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I rather be flayed alive than to PUG in ESO, so besides playing with my regular group I prefer to solo - no fake tanks, no speed running. Introducing that dumb mechanics as a group up force is just not smart - only generates frustration.

Maybe I sell my "for 50k I stand on a plate" services in zone chat - thats real MMORPG interaction

dumb design - I agree.

ESO_player123 · July 1

Are these plates like in Direfrost or like in front of Z'Baza where one player can activate the fight provided they started the dungeon solo? If it's like in Direfrost then I'm utterly disappointed. I complete dungeons with a companion to listen to the story, do the side bosses (where possible without other players) and to get the lorebooks. This became one of the favorite activities for me not long ago. I thought the developers new better and understood that the players want the story. Well, I'm not going to bother with this then.

DenverRalphy · July 1

I personally like it.

It will require at least two human players. The lead encounter designer even made a crack that basically said "dungeons aren't intended to be soloed". Which really didn't go over well with a veray vocal number of players in the chat stream.

Personally I'm all in favor of forced group content. ESO has suffered too long from forced solo design. There are a couple/few other instances of it in the game, but not enough IMHO. The "play how you want" battlecry is often abused and misused.

Desiato · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

That's because it's really a hybrid game, which is why is why ZOS says they prefer to call it an online rpg.

As I presume you know but I say for the sake of discussion, it was originally designed to be the ultimate mmo for core and hardcore gamers, but then Skyrim happened halfway through development and changed everything. IMO, most revenue over the years has been from selling chapters and dlc to Skyrim fans who play it as a single player game.

Even much of the mmo audience in the game started this way. I don't encounter many traditional mmo fans in eso.

That's why the crazy schism exists, especially in the sense the game has relatively deep, complex systems that are rendered irrelevant by the ease of the game 99.9% of the time.

But with that said, even back in Everquest solo players would challenge themselves to complete group content. It's better not to have artificial barriers to prevent this. I'm sure they're responding to feedback for "more puzzles" but every single puzzle they add in eso is so simplistic it can't credibly be called one with arguably one or two exceptions.

ESO_player123 · July 1

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I personally like it.

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Are these plates like in Direfrost or like in front of Z'Baza where one player can activate the fight provided they started the dungeon solo? If it's like in Direfrost then I'm utterly disappointed. I complete dungeons with a companion to listen to the story, do the side bosses (where possible without other players) and to get the lorebooks. This became one of the favorite activities for me not long ago. I thought the developers new better and understood that the players want the story. Well, I'm not going to bother with this then.

It will require at least two human players. The lead encounter designer even made a crack that basically said "dungeons aren't intended to be soloed". Which really didn't go over well with a veray vocal number of players in the chat stream.

Personally I'm all in favor of forced group content. ESO has suffered too long from forced solo design. There are a couple/few other instances of it in the game, but not enough IMHO. The "play how you want" battlecry is often abused and misused.

If they had a mode where the players were able to listen to the story, explore the dungeon, collect the lore books then that would not be an issue. Why add all of that if everyone are going to just speed run? I'm not interested in the trifectas or hard mode achievements. If that was the case, I would join a guild and play with other players. I do PUGs only. With the gazillion sets in the game I'm no longer interested in collecting them. I probably will do this dungeon once out of curiosity, but I'm no longer waiting for it to explore it at my leisure.

Edit:
The lead encounter designer can make a crack all they want, but these plates is an artificial gate. Kind of like adding fences and bushes to make the player go around instead of in a straight line for the sole purpose of making the area feel bigger.

Major_Toughness · July 1

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

If every hard group check was removed from every group dungeon, we'd still be heavily incentivized to group up just for additional drops, both set piece and motif pages.

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

Group Dungeons were never designed to be soloed, that is a by-product of power creep and player choice.

Thysbe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I rather be flayed alive than to PUG in ESO, so besides playing with my regular group I prefer to solo - no fake tanks, no speed running. Introducing that dumb mechanics as a group up force is just not smart - only generates frustration.

Maybe I sell my "for 50k I stand on a plate" services in zone chat - thats real MMORPG interaction

dumb design - I agree.

If you can solo you can fake tank, which means you can PUG without any issues.
I'm not sure why players would be frustrated to play content the way it is designed?

Desiato wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

That's because it's really a hybrid game, which is why is why ZOS says they prefer to call it an online mmo.

As I presume you know but I say for the sake of discussion, it was originally designed to be the ultimate mmo for core and hardcore gamers, but then Skyrim happened halfway through development and changed everything. IMO, most revenue over the years has been from selling chapters and dlc to Skyrim fans who play it as a single player game.

Even much of the mmo audience in the game started this way. I don't encounter many traditional mmo fans in eso.

That's why the crazy schism exists, especially in the sense the game has relatively deep, complex systems that are rendered irrelevant by the ease of the game 99.9% of the time.

But with that said, even back in Everquest solo players would challenge themselves to complete group content. It's better not to have artificial barriers to prevent this. I'm sure they're responding to feedback for "more puzzles" but every single puzzle they add in eso is so simplistic it can't credibly be called one with arguably one or two exceptions.

An "online mmo" is still... an mmo.

It is also irrelevant that the game is trivial and can be soloed, that is not the design for group dungeons.

dinokstrunz · July 1

How did I know someone would make this thread lol
ESO community for you.

Desiato · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

An "online mmo" is still... an mmo.

That was a typo. I meant to say online rpg. Matt for years in basically every interview would stress this.

Thysbe · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

If you can solo you can fake tank, which means you can PUG without any issues.
I'm not sure why players would be frustrated to play content the way it is designed?

When I am soloing I am better prepared to take on the tank role than 90% of the fake tanks you meet on normal or even vet.

I can´t play a normal Pug dungeon the way it is designed because speed runners ruin the whole experience, you can´t follow the quest - if you can even finish it, enjoy the dungeon or see any of the boss mechanics.

With my regular group we blind HM new dungeons - enjoy the mechanics and face the challenges - thats what I call - play the content the way it is designed - not dumb-running with a trail of adds through a dungeon.

Credible_Joe · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

If every hard group check was removed from every group dungeon, we'd still be heavily incentivized to group up just for additional drops, both set piece and motif pages.

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

Group Dungeons were never designed to be soloed, that is a by-product of power creep and player choice.

Thysbe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I rather be flayed alive than to PUG in ESO, so besides playing with my regular group I prefer to solo - no fake tanks, no speed running. Introducing that dumb mechanics as a group up force is just not smart - only generates frustration.

Maybe I sell my "for 50k I stand on a plate" services in zone chat - thats real MMORPG interaction

dumb design - I agree.

If you can solo you can fake tank, which means you can PUG without any issues.
I'm not sure why players would be frustrated to play content the way it is designed?

Desiato wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

That's because it's really a hybrid game, which is why is why ZOS says they prefer to call it an online mmo.

As I presume you know but I say for the sake of discussion, it was originally designed to be the ultimate mmo for core and hardcore gamers, but then Skyrim happened halfway through development and changed everything. IMO, most revenue over the years has been from selling chapters and dlc to Skyrim fans who play it as a single player game.

Even much of the mmo audience in the game started this way. I don't encounter many traditional mmo fans in eso.

That's why the crazy schism exists, especially in the sense the game has relatively deep, complex systems that are rendered irrelevant by the ease of the game 99.9% of the time.

But with that said, even back in Everquest solo players would challenge themselves to complete group content. It's better not to have artificial barriers to prevent this. I'm sure they're responding to feedback for "more puzzles" but every single puzzle they add in eso is so simplistic it can't credibly be called one with arguably one or two exceptions.

An "online mmo" is still... an mmo.

It is also irrelevant that the game is trivial and can be soloed, that is not the design for group dungeons.

The word 'group' isn't the gatcha you think it is. Whether or not the design is intended for a group, holding a big red stop sign for any demographic of players is a bad experience for the excluded players.

There are better ways to incentivize group play. The point of this topic isn't that all content should be designed around solo play; it's that a hard check that just stops solo players from participating does not bring engagement or joy to anyone-- it JUST excludes players from engaging with this content, and is a bad time.

Net negative experience. The people it isn't for aren't affected, the people it is for feel dejected and excluded.

El_Borracho · July 1

Group content meant for groups? The world has gone mad.

dinokstrunz · July 1

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Are these plates like in Direfrost or like in front of Z'Baza where one player can activate the fight provided they started the dungeon solo? If it's like in Direfrost then I'm utterly disappointed. I complete dungeons with a companion to listen to the story, do the side bosses (where possible without other players) and to get the lorebooks. This became one of the favorite activities for me not long ago. I thought the developers new better and understood that the players want the story. Well, I'm not going to bother with this then.

Pressure plates!? Utter group nonsense...

Major_Toughness · July 1

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

If every hard group check was removed from every group dungeon, we'd still be heavily incentivized to group up just for additional drops, both set piece and motif pages.

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

Group Dungeons were never designed to be soloed, that is a by-product of power creep and player choice.

Thysbe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I rather be flayed alive than to PUG in ESO, so besides playing with my regular group I prefer to solo - no fake tanks, no speed running. Introducing that dumb mechanics as a group up force is just not smart - only generates frustration.

Maybe I sell my "for 50k I stand on a plate" services in zone chat - thats real MMORPG interaction

dumb design - I agree.

If you can solo you can fake tank, which means you can PUG without any issues.
I'm not sure why players would be frustrated to play content the way it is designed?

Desiato wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

That's because it's really a hybrid game, which is why is why ZOS says they prefer to call it an online mmo.

As I presume you know but I say for the sake of discussion, it was originally designed to be the ultimate mmo for core and hardcore gamers, but then Skyrim happened halfway through development and changed everything. IMO, most revenue over the years has been from selling chapters and dlc to Skyrim fans who play it as a single player game.

Even much of the mmo audience in the game started this way. I don't encounter many traditional mmo fans in eso.

That's why the crazy schism exists, especially in the sense the game has relatively deep, complex systems that are rendered irrelevant by the ease of the game 99.9% of the time.

But with that said, even back in Everquest solo players would challenge themselves to complete group content. It's better not to have artificial barriers to prevent this. I'm sure they're responding to feedback for "more puzzles" but every single puzzle they add in eso is so simplistic it can't credibly be called one with arguably one or two exceptions.

An "online mmo" is still... an mmo.

It is also irrelevant that the game is trivial and can be soloed, that is not the design for group dungeons.

The word 'group' isn't the gatcha you think it is. Whether or not the design is intended for a group, holding a big red stop sign for any demographic of players is a bad experience for the excluded players.

There are better ways to incentivize group play. The point of this topic isn't that all content should be designed around solo play; it's that a hard check that just stops solo players from participating does not bring engagement or joy to anyone-- it JUST excludes players from engaging with this content, and is a bad time.

Net negative experience. The people it isn't for aren't affected, the people it is for feel dejected and excluded.

There are plenty of Trial mechanics which require multiple players and therefore cannot be soloed.
I can't remember seeing people in uproar about those, it is the exact same design, implementation, and outcome.

If you chose to impose restrictions on yourself, which are not in line with the design of the game, which means you are "excluded" from content because, again, you are choosing to not play the game as intended then you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Desiato · July 1

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I personally like it.

It will require at least two human players. The lead encounter designer even made a crack that basically said "dungeons aren't intended to be soloed". Which really didn't go over well with a veray vocal number of players in the chat stream.

Personally I'm all in favor of forced group content. ESO has suffered too long from forced solo design. There are a couple/few other instances of it in the game, but not enough IMHO. The "play how you want" battlecry is often abused and misused.

The way to "force it" is by making the encounters difficult, not by a silly trivial check to make sure there are 4 awake players. If group content is easy enough to be completed solo, that's on the devs -- and to some degree the playerbase.

I can guess why we're seeing this check implemented. It's because the increase in power from subclassing has basically turned many normal dungeons into large delves for players with optimal builds. The combat is a joke.

Freelancer_ESO · July 1

Credible_Joe wrote: »

In the first dungeon showcased, right in the entrance, there is a Direfrost Pressure Plate check that prevents solo players from even starting the dungeon.

This is hostile design that disrespects player agency and signals an extremely negative "play the way we want you to" message to players with NPC companions, who want to challenge themselves, or simply want to enjoy the narrative of the dungeon without the pressure of randos in pickup groups or having to organize a guild event.

The community has consistently signaled that these hard group checks are not popular; ESPECIALLY with the introduction of NPC companions who should be able to perform these functions, but can't. I can't imagine where the sudden desire to constrain our gameplay came from; it's completely contrary to the rest of the signaling from the studio telling us we can play how we want.

It's possible that the mechanics later in the dungeon do actually need two players and thus having players hit a brick wall early may be more appealing than getting to the very end then getting stuck.

Personally, I'd rather be able to solo it so I can go at my own pace but...

Soarora · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

If every hard group check was removed from every group dungeon, we'd still be heavily incentivized to group up just for additional drops, both set piece and motif pages.

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

Group Dungeons were never designed to be soloed, that is a by-product of power creep and player choice.

Thysbe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

I rather be flayed alive than to PUG in ESO, so besides playing with my regular group I prefer to solo - no fake tanks, no speed running. Introducing that dumb mechanics as a group up force is just not smart - only generates frustration.

Maybe I sell my "for 50k I stand on a plate" services in zone chat - thats real MMORPG interaction

dumb design - I agree.

If you can solo you can fake tank, which means you can PUG without any issues.
I'm not sure why players would be frustrated to play content the way it is designed?

Desiato wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

That's because it's really a hybrid game, which is why is why ZOS says they prefer to call it an online mmo.

As I presume you know but I say for the sake of discussion, it was originally designed to be the ultimate mmo for core and hardcore gamers, but then Skyrim happened halfway through development and changed everything. IMO, most revenue over the years has been from selling chapters and dlc to Skyrim fans who play it as a single player game.

Even much of the mmo audience in the game started this way. I don't encounter many traditional mmo fans in eso.

That's why the crazy schism exists, especially in the sense the game has relatively deep, complex systems that are rendered irrelevant by the ease of the game 99.9% of the time.

But with that said, even back in Everquest solo players would challenge themselves to complete group content. It's better not to have artificial barriers to prevent this. I'm sure they're responding to feedback for "more puzzles" but every single puzzle they add in eso is so simplistic it can't credibly be called one with arguably one or two exceptions.

An "online mmo" is still... an mmo.

It is also irrelevant that the game is trivial and can be soloed, that is not the design for group dungeons.

The word 'group' isn't the gatcha you think it is. Whether or not the design is intended for a group, holding a big red stop sign for any demographic of players is a bad experience for the excluded players.

There are better ways to incentivize group play. The point of this topic isn't that all content should be designed around solo play; it's that a hard check that just stops solo players from participating does not bring engagement or joy to anyone-- it JUST excludes players from engaging with this content, and is a bad time.

Net negative experience. The people it isn't for aren't affected, the people it is for feel dejected and excluded.

There are plenty of Trial mechanics which require multiple players and therefore cannot be soloed.
I can't remember seeing people in uproar about those, it is the exact same design, implementation, and outcome.

If you chose to impose restrictions on yourself, which are not in line with the design of the game, which means you are "excluded" from content because, again, you are choosing to not play the game as intended then you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Yes... no one talks about the solo-ability of trials. Only dungeons. Why?

Alaztor91 · July 1

Surely adding forced group mechanics to DLC Dungeons that are bundled in the Content Pass to justify the price increase vs a Chapter is going to entice more people to buy it. Right guys??

After all, the thing that most solo players who play the Chapter/C.Pass zone want is being forced to have a group to play the rest of the stuff they paid for. Haven't you seen all the threads asking for more stuff like Direfrost Keep pressure plates?

DenverRalphy · July 1

Desiato wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I personally like it.

It will require at least two human players. The lead encounter designer even made a crack that basically said "dungeons aren't intended to be soloed". Which really didn't go over well with a veray vocal number of players in the chat stream.

Personally I'm all in favor of forced group content. ESO has suffered too long from forced solo design. There are a couple/few other instances of it in the game, but not enough IMHO. The "play how you want" battlecry is often abused and misused.

The way to "force it" is by making the encounters difficult, not by a silly trivial check to make sure there are 4 awake players. If group content is easy enough to be completed solo, that's on the devs -- and to some degree the playerbase.

I can guess why we're seeing this check implemented. It's because the increase in power from subclassing has basically turned many normal dungeons into large delves for players with optimal builds. The combat is a joke.

I disagree. The way to force it is to ensure John Q Speedrunner doesn't just run off pell-mell into the dungeon leaving everyone else behind. If they have to check themselves and work as a group, it promotes group play and not "me first" play.

Credible_Joe · July 1

Everyone talking about trials or who think group content should be for groups are off topic.

Pressure plates that serve no purpose except to exclude solo players; or even groups smaller than what the designers want at any given point are just straight up not enjoyable for anyone. No one that's done that in direfrost ever thought "this made my gameplay experience better," except to be contrary to sentiments expressed in this and similar threads.

Trials don't need hard group checks. The ones in Aetherial Archive are completely redundant and are just as bad as anywhere else they're found. 11-counts and lower can complete that content; requiring a full raid of twelve with the assumption that no one will drop part way through for ANY reason just makes it frustrating to engage with the content at all. Everywhere else the difficulty of encounters designed with twelve players in mind strongly incentivize group play without arbitrarily tripping us.

The design point should be "The more the merrier,". It should NOT be "You need this amount of friends to engage with this content."

So to be clear, sentiments for or against group play notwithstanding, this thread criticizes this particular element of group enforcement.

NoticeMeArkay · July 1

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

If every hard group check was removed from every group dungeon, we'd still be heavily incentivized to group up just for additional drops, both set piece and motif pages.

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

Any chance that this check simply serves as means to protect players from other people who abuse the dungeon queue to speed ahead once inside, making it impossible for other players to enjoy the dungeon and progress the quest alongside it properly?

DenverRalphy · July 1

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Pressure plates that serve no purpose except to exclude solo players; or even groups smaller than what the designers want at any given point are just straight up not enjoyable for anyone.

<shrug> I find it enjoyable.

Credible_Joe · July 1

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

If every hard group check was removed from every group dungeon, we'd still be heavily incentivized to group up just for additional drops, both set piece and motif pages.

This hostile design is completely unnecessary and just excludes solo players from the content.

Any chance that this check simply serves as means to protect players from other people who abuse the dungeon queue to speed ahead once inside, making it impossible for other players to enjoy the dungeon and progress the quest alongside it properly?

Unless they added the same check at every dialogue point and lore spot, no. It's just a glib signal that designers don't want solo players in group dungeons.

Alternatively, there are other hard group checks further in related to combat mechanics that require multiple players. This is the same thing; the only difference being slightly more courteous in signaling it's group only right off the bat instead of wherever the REAL hard group check is.

Either way, it's not fun. Dungeons and boss mechanics should reward us for bringing people in, they should NOT punish us for arriving with the wrong number of players. Beyond, that is, simply being more difficult with fewer participants.

Desiato · July 1

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I disagree. The way to force it is to ensure John Q Speedrunner doesn't just run off pell-mell into the dungeon leaving everyone else behind. If they have to check themselves and work as a group, it promotes group play and not "me first" play.

Speedrunner is subjective. I do most things in my life quickly, including run dungeons. I don't skip content, but some people are still mad because they want to stand around and appreciate the view or loot every_single_container. Other players love it.

I hate people who skip content because I hate being pulled in when I can easily melt trash on my own and CAN'T STAND being stuck in combat. But those are my values and I'm forced to accept when another player chooses to play that way, although I may choose to opt out.

Many players think group content means the group must be considerate of *their* individual values. No one seems to understand what a subjective reality is anymore.

In any case, the way to enforce group content is through combat mechanics. Otherwise, what is the point of group content? Just to do things with other players in an environment where no one chats and most players remain strangers after the group? It's a group finder pug, not a social matchmaker.

cyclonus11 · July 1

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

MMO does not mean FORCED GROUP.

Major_Toughness · July 1

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Never seen a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE community so upset that they have to play with other players.

MMO does not mean FORCED GROUP.

You are not forced.

You choose to restrict yourself, therefore you can not do content which breaks your own (not the games) restrictions.