Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, yes, that's all well and good, but did he also tell you that Gothren's reaction meant he was pleased? If so, I begin to suspect some sort of trick being played on you. Some Bosmer rite, no doubt, as yet unknown to me.

We both weren't quite sure whether Gothren was happy with how our surprise turned out, but then agreed he must be, since he didn't try to murder us.

Always a good day when Gothren doesn't try to murder one. Still, I wouldn't risk antagonizing him with surprises. But, then, I'm not Telvanni.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's not the details of the sack that matter; it's the existence of the sack. You cannot put the Great Mage into a sack!

What does he prefer to be kidnapped in then?

Quite clearly: a mysterious portal that opens up beneath his feet and gives him time to declaim.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Interesting that, in the account, Flaccus mentions mage robes, but then drew Vanny in boots. Also funny that Vanny made some indelible changes to the portrait.
He pondered my results for a moment, distorted my art so his face appeared more majestic, and handed the parchment back.
Whatever defacements he had made, they were coated with a substance my erasers could not rub through.
The entire account is rather amusing, showing Vanny at his most dramatic, least sympathetic self. I'm guessing Flaccus took some liberties with the retelling.

The whole thing is fun to read (and it's a pity that most people aren't even aware it exists - it was the book that was part of the ESO base game collector's edition, which was sold out rather fast back then), but I'm not sure whether it can be seen as a reliable lore source (and that's fine, because unreliable narrators are a normal part of this world). It's just a story trying to include as many important npcs and places as possible and gives an outline on some conflicts present in the base game. All illustrations used are concept art, and they don't necessarily all match the text, let alone what we see in the game (in case of Vanny's design, luckily so).

I'm in the camp of folks who didn't know it existed. It's definitely an interesting work. From what I could tell, it's Flaccus' amended or annotated version of a book that already existed, but considering the ordeals he went through on the page I read, I'm certain his "improvements" are highly biased accounts. I did like his description of Vanny's magic as "excessive." Because why use one lightning bolt when you can use five?

Syldras wrote: »

While we're at concept art, I find it interesting that there's an early set of pictures - I mean, there's lots of concept art, but only these three that have a certain consistent design with the portrait in that style, and the map background:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Mannimarco.jpg
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Abnur_Tharn.jpg
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Almalexia.jpg
Which of course made me wonder whether that might hint at a very early idea of having these three be faction leaders in game. Mannimarco for the West, Tharn for the central part, and Almalexia for the East of Tamriel.

It's possible they had other roles before settling in to what we have in game. I imagine everything went through quite a few iterations between concept and implementation. I do like that art of Almalexia better than what we have in game; I think her in game model doesn't do her justice. But I do find it interesting that she and Vivec both have to always be floating, just to show off, and Sotha Sil is content to trudge around on the ground with the rest of us puny mortals.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Something about Vanny appearing on the hunt for Mannimarco, not finding him, and then stopping to pose for a portrait, is just...well, absolutely ridiculous, in a fun way.

I mean, he's hunting him for 300 years already, at some point he might become a little negligent.

The way his attention so quickly turns from the hunt to criticizing Flaccus' illustrations and then to gnawing on a convenient goat leg kind of makes me think his, "Mannimarco, you snake!" line was all for show and that he's more concerned with making a grand appearance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Mannimarco looks more wizened than I would have expected, but considering his age, it fits. The repaint note made me laugh.

That lip scar is strange. Did he injure himself with a fork? As we know, most accidents happen within the household!

Lol! Maybe he's secretly very clumsy.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But we do at least get some hints of what he was doing all that time on Tamriel, post Artaeum.

There's background lore about how he has diplomatic talent and worked for different nobles. I mean, he had to make a living somehow. The only thing I'm not quite sure about how plausible it is are those claims that his connections with the Worm Cult and him being a necromancer was well-known by people. I somehow can't believe that many people wouldn't have been bothered by that.

It's a good question how many people know about it. The text does say "agents have revealed," so there's the hint that his necromantic activities weren't that well-known until he was successfully spied upon. But how the reports from the agents worked their way into a published book is another matter. I suppose it's possible it could have been generally known, but he was so powerful no one would dare object--perhaps after he "disappeared" any who did. It also said he fell "in and out of favor for the last century." I wonder what those accounts look like, the ones where he fell out of favor.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Quite clearly: a mysterious portal that opens up beneath his feet and gives him time to declaim.

Ah, yes, noted. Maybe I should really consider making it a side job. Kidnapping the Great Mage. I mean, I can open portals, and I usually have a free basement cell, so it would be mean no big expenses for me.

And then he could say dramatic things while imprisoned. Maybe some people would even pay an entrance fee to see it.

I cannot adequately express how happy I am to hear that your abductions will be cost-effective. Indeed, perhaps even profitable!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm in the camp of folks who didn't know it existed. It's definitely an interesting work.

There's more info on it here:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Books:The_Improved_Emperor's_Guide_to_Tamriel

They did the same notebook-type of thing for the Morrowind chapter physical collector's edition:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Books:Naryu's_Journal
And for Summerset:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Books:The_Alinor_Codex
But that was the last one, I think.

Those two collector's editions also included a very interesting map of the new zones:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-misc-Vvardenfell_Map.jpg
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Summerset_Isle_Map.jpg
The latter one is also one notable example for the use of the Altmer alphabet that you rarely see anywhere in the games.

I'm not big on collectors' editions (of anything). They do include some interesting items, though, so it's nice to be able to access some version of them. Thanks for the links!

Those are some very nice maps! On the Morrowind map, what's the word on the left? I know it says Morrowind at the bottom and Vvardenfell on the right, but I can't figure out the left word. Also, I don't think I've ever seen the Altmer alphabet anywhere in game; it's very elegant (as you might expect it to be).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's possible they had other roles before settling in to what we have in game. I imagine everything went through quite a few iterations between concept and implementation.

Most probably. It's a bit of a pity they didn't go for Mannimarco, Abnur Tharn and Almalexia as leading figures, because that somehow sounds more interesting than what we actually got. More varied in characters and morals, most of all. Also it would have been an interesting take on Mannimarco, maybe more believably leading to the stance the player character has towards him in Daggerfall - where he is a cultist leader and necromancer, but we can still do quests for him and assist him with his goals. Except for the cliché looks I didn't even find him that "extremely evil" in Daggerfall. He wasn't just a simple trope.

I guess once they chose to make him the instigator of the planemeld, there wasn't really a place he could fit for quest giving. Then Abnur being one of the five companions put him out of a general leader role. Almalexia, however, is critically underused in the Ebonheart Pact zones. She could be so much more, yet you get one quest series with her.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But I do find it interesting that she and Vivec both have to always be floating, just to show off, and Sotha Sil is content to trudge around on the ground with the rest of us puny mortals.

Barefoot even. But it does fit. He's also the only one of the Tribunal who accepted his appearance to fully change from Chimer to Dunmer. I think there was even a quote about him wanting to be a positive example and to show the people that there's nothing horrible about the change, nothing to be afraid about.

So many reasons why Sil is the best tribunal. The other two have their place, but Sil is...Sil.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The way his attention so quickly turns from the hunt to criticizing Flaccus' illustrations and then to gnawing on a convenient goat leg kind of makes me think his, "Mannimarco, you snake!" line was all for show and that he's more concerned with making a grand appearance.

He should have just married Mannimarco, then they might just spend all their time sitting in some Altmer mansion and talking about dramatic things.

Or talking about mundane things in a dramatic way. "Curse you, Mannimarco, you neglected to take out the trash again! Why must I endure such filth to remain in the house?"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol! Maybe he's secretly very clumsy.

The clumsy necromancer god and his idiot cultists. Wonderful.

Amazing they got as far as they did the first time, but to achieve it twice? *shakes head* I don't know how they managed!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I suppose it's possible it could have been generally known, but he was so powerful no one would dare object--perhaps after he "disappeared" any who did.

But he certainly wasn't that powerful when he left Artaeum as barely an adult.

Right, but I imagine he kept his peculiar hobby under wraps during the time when he was ascending the political ranks, as well as honing his skills. But once he was in a position of power and had sufficient skill, he could probably let it be known to some degree, and deal with objections accordingly. Out of all the time he was making his way in Tamriel, we don't know when, exactly, his necromantic habits became well-known, or even known at all. But at some point it was bound to get out, and the way gossip travels in Tamriel, it undoubtedly spread quickly. Yet if you're the average citizen and you learn about it, what can you do? Complain in the tavern to your friends? If you're a person of some power and you learn about it, I imagine what you do would depend on how much in favor Mannimarco is at the moment versus how much power and influence you have.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It also said he fell "in and out of favor for the last century." I wonder what those accounts look like, the ones where he fell out of favor.

Let me put it like this: The helpful mage with the funny but harmless necromancy quirk might not seem that bad, until his pursuit of his funny quirk is starting to cause problems.

Of course, but what are the details of these problems? That's what I want to see, written up for the royal court records (or wherever he was).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I cannot adequately express how happy I am to hear that your abductions will be cost-effective. Indeed, perhaps even profitable!

And they will make Vanny happy. That's the most important thing, of course.

Very true. And since no one else seems to care much about his happiness, it falls to you to provide for it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Those are some very nice maps! On the Morrowind map, what's the word on the left? I know it says Morrowind at the bottom and Vvardenfell on the right, but I can't figure out the left word.

Resdayn. Strangely, many people assume it's Morrowind's "old name" and there was a name change at some point, but actually it just seems to be the original Dunmeri name with the same meaning. At least we have sources that "dayn" means "dawn", which would be what was translated to "morrow".

I think the few places I've seen Resdayn mentioned, it was referred to as "Morrowind that was" or something--implying a name change by use of the past tense. Or the text will say, "Morrowind, known then as Resdayn." So, yes, I did assume it was what the place was called, and then someone renamed it at some point. Why would the Dunmer not still call it Resdayn?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I don't think I've ever seen the Altmer alphabet anywhere in game; it's very elegant (as you might expect it to be).

It's seen on the in-game map, in the small circle around Artaeum (the rest of the whole map is in daedric font). And also during the murder quest in Russafeld, I think.

I'll have to take a closer look, then. I think I assumed it was the usual daedric script all this time.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Or talking about mundane things in a dramatic way. "Curse you, Mannimarco, you neglected to take out the trash again! Why must I endure such filth to remain in the house?"

How many times a day would he call himself the Great Mage?

I don't think there'd be any upper limit. Indeed, his line above should have said, "Why must the Great Mage endure..." So, actually, he'd probably use that as a substitute any time the word "I" came up. "The Great Mage is going to bed now!"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yet if you're the average citizen and you learn about it, what can you do? Complain in the tavern to your friends?

Honestly, I think I wouldn't care much.

I did say average citizen. I think it's fairly clear you aren't that!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Of course, but what are the details of these problems? That's what I want to see, written up for the royal court records (or wherever he was).

Can these things even be safely portrayed anymore?

Considering some of the writing portrayed in some of the lore books already in existence, I don't see why not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think the few places I've seen Resdayn mentioned, it was referred to as "Morrowind that was" or something--implying a name change by use of the past tense. Or the text will say, "Morrowind, known then as Resdayn." So, yes, I did assume it was what the place was called, and then someone renamed it at some point. Why would the Dunmer not still call it Resdayn?

They might, but since we're always supposed to be a foreigner, they might not use it when talking to us, but use the internationally common Cyrodiilic name Morrowind instead. I think the common language the player character is supposed to be communicating in with everyone is Cyrodiilic (although I do imagine my Dunmer character to be talking Dunmeri with other Dunmer, since he's supposed to be a native in my roleplay).

My two Dunmer are also native to Vvardenfell, so I like to imagine them being spoken to appropriately. It takes more work on some quests. But yes, in general I suppose they'd refer to it as the Cyrodiilic name.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think there'd be any upper limit. Indeed, his line above should have said, "Why must the Great Mage endure..." So, actually, he'd probably use that as a substitute any time the word "I" came up. "The Great Mage is going to bed now!"

And what percentage of time do they spend on staged kidnappings?

I think, to answer that, I'd have to know definitively what other hobbies Vanny has. The one about hunting down Worm Cult nests wouldn't apply anymore, unless that was something he and Mannimarco had some kind of agreement on. Then I'd have to know what Mannimarco's hobbies are, and factor in how much time would be given to those.

But even without that information, I'd say something like 25%. A really good and effective staged kidnapping takes some time to prepare for, after all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering some of the writing portrayed in some of the lore books already in existence, I don't see why not.

But that's all older lorebooks. Look at how they portray Sanguine now. I bet some of the older lore wouldn't have been written if that decision was to be made today.

Maybe not, but they haven't gone back and changed any of it, have they? I think they're still willing to accurately portray the lore in the books; at least the new ones I read on Solstice didn't seem sanitized.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

My two Dunmer are also native to Vvardenfell, so I like to imagine them being spoken to appropriately. It takes more work on some quests. But yes, in general I suppose they'd refer to it as the Cyrodiilic name.

I'd love to see them elaborate on the native languages of different cultures of Tamriel more.

I would, too. Every now and then we'll get a word or phrase from an npc, but I'd like more.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think, to answer that, I'd have to know definitively what other hobbies Vanny has. The one about hunting down Worm Cult nests wouldn't apply anymore, unless that was something he and Mannimarco had some kind of agreement on. Then I'd have to know what Mannimarco's hobbies are, and factor in how much time would be given to those.

I mean, we do know of his habit of writing poetry, but he surely also does many other interesting things. We clearly need more info! It's very important!

Too bad we had to banish Ithelia. We could have taken a trip to the timeline where Vanny and Mannimarco made it work, collected some useful data.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But even without that information, I'd say something like 25%. A really good and effective staged kidnapping takes some time to prepare for, after all.

It's probably indeed a lot of work. But... whatever it takes to make Vanny happy!

Agreed! In pursuance of that, if...I mean, when you abduct him, make sure to put him in the good cell.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe not, but they haven't gone back and changed any of it, have they?

Sanitized? No. Some older lorebooks were slightly altered or passages removed about events that take place after ESO, but that's fine of course. Still, I remain sceptical. Maybe it's just typical Telvanni paranoia, but who knows.

Oh, and I just found this again and it really made me laugh:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Meet_the_Character_-_Selene
Not sure which part is the best. Maybe the one about female clone Vanny.

That is a great meet the character portrait! Vanny comes across as much more personable in that, too. He didn't call himself the Great Mage once and it also seemed like he might almost have a slight sense of humor; the barest hint of one, anyway.

I will not record the sound I made for posterity, but I admit that it was undignified.

Female clone Vanny was good, too. I also like this line in the beginning: And yet, there have been moments during my tenure as Arch-Mage that remind me not to let my meritorious status go to my head. Funny how whenever we see him in game, he seems to have forgotten that particular lesson!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would, too. Every now and then we'll get a word or phrase from an npc, but I'd like more.

If it was up to me, they couldn't go too far in developing fictional languages - I mean, there are also people who speak Klingon after all - but I see that might not have the highest priority... Anyway, the more the better. In my case especially when it comes to Dunmeri, Altmeri or Ayleidoon.

I wonder if they would ever put some books in game that had some in-depth look into the languages. If they did, hopefully they'd put them in a safe place to read them. So many times I've been engrossed in a lore book I've come across in a delve or out in the world, and the enemies respawn and attack me. "I was reading!" I angrily tell them before killing them and finding my place in the book.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Too bad we had to banish Ithelia. We could have taken a trip to the timeline where Vanny and Mannimarco made it work, collected some useful data.

Maybe Vanny's staff can just re-summon her, that thing can do whatever needs to be done, after all. Except for summoning Vanny, maybe. That would be too easy. Or maybe it can but Vanny just doesn't want to leave his cozy prison cell yet.

That staff is a like a cryptic ghost in a movie: it never just tells you directly what it wants, it gives vague hints and clues. Although, that may be because it's in the hands of someone who isn't the Great Mage. If Vanny had it back in his possession, probably it could do whatever, with no problem. As for Vanny and the prison cell: how quickly do you think he wants out when he realizes what Wormblood's become?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Agreed! In pursuance of that, if...I mean, when you abduct him, make sure to put him in the good cell.

So what would be the "good cell" in this case? The one that offers the most realistic experience, or something less unhealthy?

I was thinking the one with the best cushions and most light? But you bring up a good point: how realistic does he want his purposeful kidnappings to be?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I will not record the sound I made for posterity, but I admit that it was undignified.

He probably trained a lot since them, so instead of screaming for his life he just yells something about the Great Mage now whenever he's scared.

Haha, that idea puts so much into perspective!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Female clone Vanny was good, too.

Can an ancient shapeshifter creature have children with an Altmer - oh, sorry, "Aldmer" necromancer? If so, we might have found Wormblood's mother. I mean, we did discuss the difficulty of finding a woman who looks like Vanny a few pages ago...

I...I think you may have cracked the case!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That staff is a like a cryptic ghost in a movie: it never just tells you directly what it wants, it gives vague hints and clues. Although, that may be because it's in the hands of someone who isn't the Great Mage. If Vanny had it back in his possession, probably it could do whatever, with no problem.

Why doesn't he just summon Mannimarco then? Or wait, maybe he will at the end of Part 2! Wouldn't be less random than the ending of Part 1.

Can non-daedric entities be summoned? Spirits can be, but Mannimarco has a shell now, so he's not just a spirit. How does that "trap someone in a portal" magic work, anyway? I assume the caster has to be nearby, but maybe not; or not if they are the Great Mage.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for Vanny and the prison cell: how quickly do you think he wants out when he realizes what Wormblood's become?

Would he flee, or wouldn't he want to leave anymore? If he's afraid of him, why would he be chasing him for over 300 years already?

Not afraid of him, exactly. But at a disadvantage, at the least. Imprisoned, no staff...how much magic can wizards conjure without the aid of their staves? Well, he's a lightning dude, so that shouldn't need a conduit, really. Also, after Sancre Tor, did he consider it "job done" as pertains to Mannimarco? So maybe he's not fully mentally prepared to face off with him again.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was thinking the one with the best cushions and most light? But you bring up a good point: how realistic does he want his purposeful kidnappings to be?

That's really a good question. One thing is for sure: They need to look dramatic. But beyond that...

What's dramatic when it comes to prison cells? Dim light? The slow drip of water somewhere? The persistent snuffling and shuffling of a creature just out of sight? Or for Vanny would it merely be the presence of other prisoners he could impress with his ingenuity and escape plans?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Haha, that idea puts so much into perspective!

Whenever he says "Great Mage" now, just keep in mind that poor Vanny is scared. Which would be quite often. But who knows, maybe he has social phobia.

Who could blame him if he did? Last real friend he made turned out to be Mannimarco.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I...I think you may have cracked the case!

I know it's a horrible joke. Just like my neighbor.

Well that sounds like a story I probably shouldn't inquire about!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Can non-daedric entities be summoned?

If I yell for one of my servants, he's here within a few seconds. Must be some kind of tonal magic.

I did mean with one of those fancy magic summoning spells, but that brings up a point: would Mannimarco heed a summons if Vanny just yelled really loudly for him?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How does that "trap someone in a portal" magic work, anyway? I assume the caster has to be nearby, but maybe not; or not if they are the Great Mage.

I mean, you powerful mages can just open a portal at any location. If I wanted to kidnap someone, I'd just choose the ground beneath their feet as that location, so they just fall into it. Of course, for that, I'd have to know where they currently are... Which might be a bit more complicated for people who wander a lot, but let's say, less complicated if an individual is sitting at their desk in, possibly, one Mages Guild hall most of the day. As for Mannimarco, one could, until recently, have assumed that he didn't move much anymore, but... we did see that he still turned out to be unusually mobile.

You say that, but I've never actually seen anyone open a portal they weren't standing near. So...demonstration, please! You stay at your tower, I'll go to the Elden Root Mages Guild, and you summon Alvur Baren--dude never moves, not even to put away artifacts! Then, when you have him imprisoned...er, situated in the guest quarters, ask him how come he keeps losing those artifacts Bastian and I fetch for him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Not afraid of him, exactly. But at a disadvantage, at the least. Imprisoned, no staff...how much magic can wizards conjure without the aid of their staves? Well, he's a lightning dude, so that shouldn't need a conduit, really. Also, after Sancre Tor, did he consider it "job done" as pertains to Mannimarco? So maybe he's not fully mentally prepared to face off with him again.

All I know is that he's probably going to babble about the Great Mage a lot.

That scared, huh?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What's dramatic when it comes to prison cells? Dim light? The slow drip of water somewhere? The persistent snuffling and shuffling of a creature just out of sight? Or for Vanny would it merely be the presence of other prisoners he could impress with his ingenuity and escape plans?

If it's less about giving him a stage for being dramatic and more about evoking terrifying emotions... remember he's an Altmer. He might probably be frightened with his cell lacking a bath tub. Or just having a not perfectly clean one. Or dust, horrible, dirty dust! Everywhere!

Oh, well, then I suppose any old cell would do! I assume you don't clean them out...what am I saying, of course you don't. More precisely, I assume you don't have them cleaned out.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I did mean with one of those fancy magic summoning spells, but that brings up a point: would Mannimarco heed a summons if Vanny just yelled really loudly for him?

It's a little contradictory anyway. We know Vanny tries to catch Mannimarco, and Mannimarco seems to be obsessively interested in getting hold of Vanny - still, they haven't found each other after 300 years?! What a tragic love story.

They're somehow always just missing one another. Tragic love story, indeed!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You say that, but I've never actually seen anyone open a portal they weren't standing near. So...demonstration, please! You stay at your tower, I'll go to the Elden Root Mages Guild, and you summon Alvur Baren--dude never moves, not even to put away artifacts! Then, when you have him imprisoned...er, situated in the guest quarters, ask him how come he keeps losing those artifacts Bastian and I fetch for him.

But wouldn't Vanny be horribly disappointed and never talk to me again if I start kidnapping his guild mages instead of him? And especially precious Alvur and his two triplet brothers of the same name in Mournhold and Wayrest (those parents must have been really lazy)?

Or...hear me out...your abduction of one of his matching set of Alvurs inspires him to stage a dramatic rescue. Then he falls into the trap you've laid for him, and you have two guests to entertain with questions. Win-win. Win.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That scared, huh?

Very scared, and excited, and happy, if I consider his unusual "hobbies". It must be a dream come true for him, and a nightmare at the same time. The Great Mage is a complex character!

Yes, and growing more complex the longer we talk about him!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, well, then I suppose any old cell would do! I assume you don't clean them out...what am I saying, of course you don't. More precisely, I assume you don't have them cleaned out.

It would be a waste of time. Also, I don't have to live there, and neither has my Bosmer. We keep our space very clean and orderly, of course.

Of course! Evil machinations are best worked out in a tidy, organized space.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They're somehow always just missing one another. Tragic love story, indeed!

At least they'll have some, well... not exactly a happy ending, but... they find each other at last. And that's what counts, right?

Maybe? I suppose it depends on whether or not their perspectives on each other have changed by the time they find one another. Or if the reality doesn't live up to the idea; then it might have been better to not have found, and still be searching.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Or...hear me out...your abduction of one of his matching set of Alvurs inspires him to stage a dramatic rescue. Then he falls into the trap you've laid for him, and you have two guests to entertain with questions. Win-win. Win.

Would that work? Or is the Great Mage too busy to rescue one Alvur if he still has another two of them (which might be totally sufficient for the useless work they do)?

I think he'd have to. Right now, he's got one Alvur for each faction. If one of those goes missing, his cherished neutrality might be called into question. He can't very well say the Mages Guild takes no sides in the Three Banners conflict when the Alvur for one of those banners is disappeared and he makes no effort to get him back. And I'm pretty sure we've figured out that the Great Mage isn't actually busy. Like, at all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, and growing more complex the longer we talk about him!

And stranger. Most of all.

Well, we do have our fun!

By the way, my character got to the Stirk Island get-together part of the base game main quest. Walked along with Vanny to do the meet and greet. Was surprised to hear Vanny be very excited to see Lady Laurent. He calls out, "Look, it's Lady Laurent!" like he has a crush on her and then he actually says, "I never weary of your charms, Lady Laurent," after we hear her berating Stibbons. So it's confirmed: he's got a thing for cruel taskmasters.

And the conversation between him and Telenger is delightful. They cordially despise one another, I'm pretty sure. Vanny's tone when he says, "Wonderful. It's Telenger." made me laugh--the sound of a mer who was hoping he'd never have to talk to this particular mer ever again. Vanny calls him "Telly," and they trade some insults, and it was really quite the spectator sport for my character.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Of course! Evil machinations are best worked out in a tidy, organized space.

Just the interpretation of that might differ... But I can say that I find my place very orderly! In its own way.

Everyone has their own way of organizing that makes most sense to them, and likely only them. At least, that's how it works for me!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe? I suppose it depends on whether or not their perspectives on each other have changed by the time they find one another. Or if the reality doesn't live up to the idea; then it might have been better to not have found, and still be searching.

Can Vanny be less happy as an undead thrall than he is already now?

Probably not? I mean, it's unclear to me whether an undead thrall is capable of knowing its own level of happiness. So, if ignorance is bliss, I guess then undead thrall Vanny is super happy.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think he'd have to. Right now, he's got one Alvur for each faction. If one of those goes missing, his cherished neutrality might be called into question. He can't very well say the Mages Guild takes no sides in the Three Banners conflict when the Alvur for one of those banners is disappeared and he makes no effort to get him back.

Or he might just dismiss the remaining two Alvurs and exchange them for some new triplets?

Are magically inclined triplets really that common? No, my plan is sound. I'll go to the Elden Root Mages Guild and watch that Alvur so I can see you abduct him by long-distance portal. Although...I guess we should maybe put it off until Vanny is freed from his current kidnapped state. He can't effect a rescue while he still needs rescuing, after all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And I'm pretty sure we've figured out that the Great Mage isn't actually busy. Like, at all.

I mean, what have we ever seen him doing except for being imprisoned somewhere? It's not like he's even around somewhere outside of quests. Where is he even supposed to be most of the time? Does he have an office somewhere? Or some place to live, in general? Wait: I truly hope he's not getting himself kidnapped all the time because he's homeless otherwise.

Let's see...one time when he wanted me to do chores for him, he appeared out of thin air and knocked me back with his spell, so that doesn't give much of a clue to his housing situation. Other times he wanted my attention, he shouted at me from across the Mages Guild in Vulkhel Guard, so maybe he lives there sometimes? Or just hangs out there from time to time. I guess it's possible he likes to get kidnapped because then he'll have a secure place to sleep. I wish I'd known he was so hard up. I could have offered him one of my houses to stay in for awhile. I hardly ever use most of them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

By the way, my character got to the Stirk Island get-together part of the base game main quest. Walked along with Vanny to do the meet and greet. Was surprised to hear Vanny be very excited to see Lady Laurent. He calls out, "Look, it's Lady Laurent!" like he has a crush on her and then he actually says, "I never weary of your charms, Lady Laurent," after we hear her berating Stibbons. So it's confirmed: he's got a thing for cruel taskmasters.

He should have just stayed with Mannimarco. Who knows, maybe Mannimarco would have even given up his weird godhood plans if he had Vanny around to vex (and be worshipped by) all day. Then they'd be living a normal Altmer life now; well, maybe with a few unusual hobbies, but the outcome would have been better for Nirn for sure.

Is there a way we can go back in time and try to set it up that way? For science. To observe the state of the world when one variable changes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And the conversation between him and Telenger is delightful. They cordially despise one another, I'm pretty sure. Vanny's tone when he says, "Wonderful. It's Telenger." made me laugh--the sound of a mer who was hoping he'd never have to talk to this particular mer ever again. Vanny calls him "Telly," and they trade some insults, and it was really quite the spectator sport for my character.

Sounds like I have to replay the main quest some time soon.

Well, the stuff with Vanny is worth it. I think it's funny that the Great Mage, with his Supreme Neutrality, thinks my character, a firm Aldmeri Dominion advocate, will have better success than he will convincing the leaders of the alliances to agree to attack Coldharbour. I asked him, "Why do you think they'll listen to me and not you?" But he didn't answer, just opened a portal to Emeric's throne room and away we went.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Probably not? I mean, it's unclear to me whether an undead thrall is capable of knowing its own level of happiness. So, if ignorance is bliss, I guess then undead thrall Vanny is super happy.

Sounds like an improvement. A vast one. Also, Mannimarco doesn't seem to be that evil after all

Wait...how do you get there? He has to be evil! We've been told that for years now; it can't suddenly not be true. Can it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Are magically inclined triplets really that common?

Maybe they're not actually triplets but some powerful wizard cloned them.

I can see Vanny doing that, just for symmetry's sake. "I need someone to send other people on regular missions, and it has to be the same someone for everyone, or else people will get suspicious about my loyalties." And it makes sense that Alvur isn't triplets, but some magically derived being, because he doesn't have any agency (heck, he can't even move from his chairs), he makes no effort to keep the returned relics safely contained, and he doesn't seem to recall we've already collected them all for him many times. Actually, the whole set-up is suspicious. Clearly the Great Mage has created this entire relic collecting scheme to keep up busy and keep us from inquiring too closely into his own whereabouts and doings. So, yeah, now it's our duty to disrupt the system and find out what's really going on!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, my plan is sound. I'll go to the Elden Root Mages Guild and watch that Alvur so I can see you abduct him by long-distance portal. Although...I guess we should maybe put it off until Vanny is freed from his current kidnapped state. He can't effect a rescue while he still needs rescuing, after all.

Isn't it a bit mean we can't start any rescue attempts for four whole months now? Then again, Vanny is probably lucky if people still remember him in a few months... They already seemed to have forgotten about him during the big finale of Part 1, after all, as soon as the Breton showed up. If Vanny hears of this, he might decide it's not so bad to stay where he currently is... At least he's appreciated there. I guess.

It is mean. I keep thinking of the last time he projected to us, and his, "someone's coming," remark. And other than Walks hastily saying she'd take charge of Vanny's staff, there was nary a mention of him. I guess everyone's shock and/or grief over a certain event eclipsed the Great Mage's plight.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Let's see...one time when he wanted me to do chores for him, he appeared out of thin air and knocked me back with his spell, so that doesn't give much of a clue to his housing situation. Other times he wanted my attention, he shouted at me from across the Mages Guild in Vulkhel Guard, so maybe he lives there sometimes? Or just hangs out there from time to time.

Libraries aren't the worst place to spend your time if you don't have a clue where to go, to be honest. It's a dry and safe place and provides some kind of distraction, after all.

I agree about libraries, and I don't blame Vanny for hanging out in one of the guild halls. He definitely doesn't use the usual indoor library voice, though. But, that's not unique to him. So many shouty people in Tamriel.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess it's possible he likes to get kidnapped because then he'll have a secure place to sleep. I wish I'd known he was so hard up. I could have offered him one of my houses to stay in for awhile. I hardly ever use most of them.

I feel sorry for the Great Mage. Why is there no houseguest version, by the way? Yes, I know, many people can't stand poor Vanny...

I would love a houseguest version of Vanny! He could hang out with Fennorian. And then some day maybe Revus could join them. I'd make sure they had books, and tea, and a flask of blood for Fennorian. Some Dwemer stuff for Revus to tinker with.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Is there a way we can go back in time and try to set it up that way? For science. To observe the state of the world when one variable changes.

Well, since Ithelia is gone... We can probably only try to reconcile them now. In Part 2. Even if we know they will break up once more some time in the future. There's a lot that may happen within... how many centuries are there between ESO and Oblivion? And now we (most probably) already have them interacting. Which they said would never happen, back in that one interview (or Q&A or whatever it was) years ago. That's a start, isn't it?

Apart from that, it gets ever clearer what might have attracted Vanny to Mannimarco in the first place.

Seems like there's about 750 years between where we are now in the timeline and the start of Oblivion (according to a very quick internet search). So, yes, plenty of time for them to rearrange their relationship between now and then.

I do hope they actually interact in part 2. It doesn't have to be a grand plot-moving, world-changing interaction: but to put them in this close proximity and not have an interaction would be so disappointing. Unless, of course, their interaction is more akin to Vanny shaking his fist and saying, "Oooh, Mannimarco, I'll best you yet!" That I could do without.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, the stuff with Vanny is worth it. I think it's funny that the Great Mage, with his Supreme Neutrality, thinks my character, a firm Aldmeri Dominion advocate, will have better success than he will convincing the leaders of the alliances to agree to attack Coldharbour. I asked him, "Why do you think they'll listen to me and not you?" But he didn't answer, just opened a portal to Emeric's throne room and away we went.

Maybe he just hates talking to people. Or is afraid of it (which is also the reason he talks about the Great Mage so often then). Or he just lacks self-confidence in general.

Well, I can believe he dislikes talking to people more easily than I can believe he lacks self-confidence. I know him always talking about how great he is could be sign of overcompensation for feelings of inadequacy, but I don't believe so. Of course, I know the real reason we do all the talking to the leaders is because we're the star of the show, as it were, and it wouldn't be much of a quest if we just tagged along while Vanny did all the talking. Would be kind of funny, though. Imagine him being asked by the leaders who we were. "Oh, him? He's just here to carry my stuff!"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Wait...how do you get there? He has to be evil! We've been told that for years now; it can't suddenly not be true. Can it?

I can still remember him as the charming lich questgiver in Daggerfall

How can you remember something from the future?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I can see Vanny doing that, just for symmetry's sake. "I need someone to send other people on regular missions, and it has to be the same someone for everyone, or else people will get suspicious about my loyalties." And it makes sense that Alvur isn't triplets, but some magically derived being, because he doesn't have any agency (heck, he can't even move from his chairs), he makes no effort to keep the returned relics safely contained, and he doesn't seem to recall we've already collected them all for him many times. Actually, the whole set-up is suspicious. Clearly the Great Mage has created this entire relic collecting scheme to keep up busy and keep us from inquiring too closely into his own whereabouts and doings. So, yeah, now it's our duty to disrupt the system and find out what's really going on!

He's ashamed of being homeless. There's probably nothing more to it. Or what kind of dark secret do you expect? It's Vanny, after all - he's harmless.

I don't know that the secrets have to be dark, necessarily, but that there are secrets I am positive. Probably what we'll find is the greatest twist of the century: he's not harmless at all!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would love a houseguest version of Vanny! He could hang out with Fennorian. And then some day maybe Revus could join them. I'd make sure they had books, and tea, and a flask of blood for Fennorian. Some Dwemer stuff for Revus to tinker with.

Where do you plan to get the blood supply from?

Oh, you know, somewhere. I'll figure it out. Unless you have a helpful contact? Or a regular blood supplier? You probably do. I mean, seems like the kind of thing you'd have.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Seems like there's about 750 years between where we are now in the timeline and the start of Oblivion (according to a very quick internet search). So, yes, plenty of time for them to rearrange their relationship between now and then.

Several times even. Think of all the drama!

Enough to fill a seven volume book series!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do hope they actually interact in part 2. It doesn't have to be a grand plot-moving, world-changing interaction: but to put them in this close proximity and not have an interaction would be so disappointing. Unless, of course, their interaction is more akin to Vanny shaking his fist and saying, "Oooh, Mannimarco, I'll best you yet!" That I could do without.

I'd honestly love to see something truly unexpected. But I know the stories of the past few years well enough not to expect anything like that anymore. Sigh.

I know, I know, but...maybe?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I can believe he dislikes talking to people more easily than I can believe he lacks self-confidence. I know him always talking about how great he is could be sign of overcompensation for feelings of inadequacy, but I don't believe so.

I deem it possible, considering his background.

It is possible, but I don't think likely. I think his time on Artaeum and his great aptitude for magic would make him pretty confident in his abilities.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Of course, I know the real reason we do all the talking to the leaders is because we're the star of the show, as it were, and it wouldn't be much of a quest if we just tagged along while Vanny did all the talking. Would be kind of funny, though. Imagine him being asked by the leaders who we were. "Oh, him? He's just here to carry my stuff!"

Honestly I wouldn't mind some quests to look like that. We're the center of attention in most other quests - and be it because there's no one else around, or at least no one else of relevance - so an exception to that rule at times, where it makes sense story-wise... Why not?

I'd be up for it; be nice to sometimes be a background player. There are times when the quest objective is to "watch the scene unfold" and those can be well done. It can also create a sense of things spiraling out of control, which could also work in certain situations. In fact, that did happen on Stirk, when the alliance leaders show up and start getting suspicious of and sniping at one another. All the character can do is watch the meeting go to hell. Almost as fun as watching Telenger and Vanny go at it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How can you remember something from the future?

Time travel.

Are...are you in league with Thaddeus Cosma?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know that the secrets have to be dark, necessarily, but that there are secrets I am positive. Probably what we'll find is the greatest twist of the century: he's not harmless at all!

Or he's been keeping contact with Mannimarco all along! Now that would be amusing. And an explanation to where he usually spends his time when he's not around.

Lol...mystery solved!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, you know, somewhere. I'll figure it out. Unless you have a helpful contact? Or a regular blood supplier? You probably do. I mean, seems like the kind of thing you'd have.

Of course I have. I suffer from anemia and have you ever seen iron supplement pills in Tamriel?

Do they just take some high iron dust and wrap it in a sweetroll? Regardless, I'm sure you wouldn't object to supplying Fennorian with a flask or two on the regular. I'll pay fair price.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know, I know, but...maybe?

Maybe if we write a petition?

Wouldn't that make us outlaws? Aren't petitions illegal on this forum? But let's see: risk vs. reward calculations started...hmm...inconclusive. Probably better not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is possible, but I don't think likely. I think his time on Artaeum and his great aptitude for magic would make him pretty confident in his abilities.

He couldn't even believe that Mannimarco would get Iachesis to unlock the Traitor's Vault (how ever it was called back then) for them.

That's a fair point, but do we know how much time passed between his initial surprise and later, when he stormed off the island? Because remember, Mannimarco coached him to not be humble; I think he took those lessons to heart.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd be up for it; be nice to sometimes be a background player. There are times when the quest objective is to "watch the scene unfold" and those can be well done. It can also create a sense of things spiraling out of control, which could also work in certain situations. In fact, that did happen on Stirk, when the alliance leaders show up and start getting suspicious of and sniping at one another. All the character can do is watch the meeting go to hell. Almost as fun as watching Telenger and Vanny go at it.

In some cases it would make the world seem more realistic. It just makes no sense if we're supposed to do everything and characters supposed to be important and powerful according to lore just stand around and do nothing all the time. It would certainly also help with their characterization if we actually see them do more meaningful things instead of just reading about that in lorebooks (if at all).

At most they tag along and shout, "Let my great magic aid you!" Or, "I've summoned a protective bubble!" But really we're still doing all the work. Every once in a while we'll get the chance to choose between two tasks, and the npc will do the other, or they'll say they're going to do one bit and send us off to do something. But, again, we're still doing the work. And as much as I don't like tagalong npcs, narrating every step we take, and pointing out obvious things, I would like to see them being more useful in general.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Are...are you in league with Thaddeus Cosma?

Nah. Met him once but he didn't seem to approve of my methods.

Oh, didn't he? Shocking! Let me ask you a rather simple question: who does approve of your methods?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol...mystery solved!

They've been meeting in secret for 200 years now, in some secluded spot on some remote Summerset islet, and spend their days being dramatic. Or writing poetry. And Mannimarco giving Vanny lessons in being less humble, of course. And maybe they also indulge in some other hobbies, although in the end those probably all fall under "being dramatic".

So next time we ask him, "What have you been up to?" and he answers, "What haven't I been up to?" we'll know exactly what he means!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

At most they tag along and shout, "Let my great magic aid you!" Or, "I've summoned a protective bubble!" But really we're still doing all the work. Every once in a while we'll get the chance to choose between two tasks, and the npc will do the other, or they'll say they're going to do one bit and send us off to do something.

Yeah, they're saying that. But "strangely", most often enough only what we end up doing shows some useful result. Which then makes me wonder whether they did anything at all. And then there's Skordo of course, who just stood next to me staring while I was doing all the work alone, during the prologue I think it was? I mean not that I think of Skordo as some meaningful or at least useful companion But he could have at least tried to look busy instead of gawking at us!

He was probably trying to remember our names, but he couldn't, and so he just called us "pal" a lot. Like, really, too much. And I wouldn't put it past some of our former associates to send us off on the grunt work while they went to the nearest tavern to do their fair share of the work.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And as much as I don't like tagalong npcs, narrating every step we take, and pointing out obvious things, I would like to see them being more useful in general.

It would actually help if some of these npcs also showed up outside of quests - like, actually being in some city and having some kind of schedule. Right now they often enough show up only when needed for a quest, and if they don't disappear again afterwards, they just stand around somewhere and don't really do anything (somehow reminds me of Daggerfall where many npcs were just standing around like some cardboard figure). The world really seems strangely static and unlively sometimes in ESO. Sometimes there are background conversations that are triggered when we're nearby, but they also repeat very fast.

And I'm honestly also not sure whether the tendency goes towards a more lively world, considering many npcs in the new content don't even have some random voice lines anymore and say nothing at all?

I remember when Morrowind (the single player game) was new, and one of the points that got mentioned about it was that the npcs had schedules they followed, so they wouldn't always just be standing around in the same place. Shops would close at night, you wouldn't necessarily find a quest npc in the same spot as they were when they gave you the quest, and so forth. It was an innovation/improvement over npc behavior in the previous games, and I remember being impressed by it.

It would be nice to have some of these main quest npcs have a home base in game, a place you can find and talk to them again, or see them being a person who lives in this world. Honestly, why doesn't Vanny have a home in the game? Or at least an office in one of the Mages Guild buildings, maybe with a cot behind a screen so at least we know he can catch some sleep sometimes. He really shouldn't have to rely on getting kidnapped in order to have a sleeping mat.

The number of npcs in Solstice without voice lines really surprised me. Are they really just there as pickpocket/blade of woe targets, and so not deserving of any personality?

Like with companion voice lines, you spend enough time in any city/place in game, and you'll hear flavor text repeat. Rimmen is my city base, and the number of times I've heard the gossipy khajiit tell her friend, "I heard a necromancer named Vastarie stopped the undead at the Ashen Scar..." I feel like stopping and saying, "That was ages ago! You need better gossip sources!" But even so, I'd much rather have that than completely silent npcs with whom you cannot interact even for one single voice line.

Although, what's funny to me is when I port to outside my little apartment in Rimmen, and I have Zerith-var as my active companion. He'll start with one of his deep-voiced, gravelly lines about the city: "Walls, conduct, order; this is not the grassland oasis I knew." While he's reminiscing about Rim'kha, the gossip lady starts one of her lines: "One of my friends told me that the monks at Two Moons Temple are no longer chasing invisible butterflies!" So they'll be talking over each other, and it's like the babble of a city in that one specific pocket.