Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wouldn't say I "shrug off" your Telvanni behavior, but I do agree Telvanni are weird.

Well, I always enjoy meeting other Telvanni (unless they want to murder me, of course). Always makes me think: "Finally, a normal person!"

I enjoy certain Telvanni, but others...I wouldn't be upset if their mushroom towers consumed them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, I can't. I can't think of any sincere romantic affection expressed by an npc to our character. Zerith-Var expresses sincere affection for us, but it's not romantic, so I know the writers can do sincere. Seems like when it goes towards romance/flirting, however, it's always brash.

What's with Azandar?
"I've become very accustomed to your presence, and you hardly irritate me at all."
Made me laugh because I usually tell people that the biggest compliment they can get from me is that they're bearable. It indeed says a lot if I can tolerate someone around me, maybe even long-term - it means they don't give me a headache with their chatter And if I can bear someone around me indefinitely, that's basically a marriage candidate.

I would laugh as well if I heard him say that. Is that one of his lines from being summoned, or a dialogue line when you're max rapport with him?

I am not a social person myself and am growing less so as I get older. I once tried explaining to my mom that I don't like people. She was very shocked and couldn't believe I would say such a thing. I told her there are people I like but that, by and large, no I don't like people. (I don't think she ever really got what I was saying). I'm coming up on thirty years of marriage, though, so there is at least one person I like to be around a lot.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I so much want him to be safe by the end of the story. He'll likely have to go through some trauma or difficulties before we save him, but I do want to save him.

I'd even sacrifice the rest, if necessary. And if I haggle well enough, I might even get a little more for them. Maybe an interesting artifact, or a personal daedra servant.

Well, Walks will probably be sacrificed at some point by Vanny's staff. (That thing might have some form of sentience). Azah might have prince plot armor. And Raz still has some of his nine lives left, or so he said. As for artifacts, didn't you plunder the mages guild? Or are you still working on that plan? And couldn't you just summon a daedra servant? Or is there something special about having one traded for a sacrifice?

Not that you can't sacrifice them all if you want. I just don't think the three of them together add up to the value of one Great Mage. Or were you not thinking of a trade situation? You were probably thinking of dark rituals again, weren't you?

Ok, well, you go the dark ritual/sacrifice route; I'll go the sneak into wherever they're holding him and break him out route; the Stirk Fellowship can distract everyone with their attack on eastern Solstice; by the end of it all, we should contrive to have one Great Mage freed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I enjoy certain Telvanni, but others...I wouldn't be upset if their mushroom towers consumed them.

Have you ever seen a mushroom eating a person? It's usually the other way round

I was thinking more like, they die (by natural means or others) and the fungus reduces them to compost--that sort of consumption. Otherwise, I dunno, spore infestation, fungal infection, outright poison? Several ways for a mushroom to incapacitate a Telvanni.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would laugh as well if I heard him say that. Is that one of his lines from being summoned, or a dialogue line when you're max rapport with him?

Max rapport. He also has this one then:
"I am uncomfortable expressing the level of appreciation I have for you in my life. I hope you can respect that. You... you're great."
He's truly in love, I tell you!

He might just be! See, so far they've done a great job of giving the companions their own distinct personalities. If they could keep that in mind when creating any companion romance options, they might be able to pull it off. But if it's all just: give gifts, brash flirting, boom, you're in love...well, no thanks to that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I am not a social person myself and am growing less so as I get older. I once tried explaining to my mom that I don't like people. She was very shocked and couldn't believe I would say such a thing. I told her there are people I like but that, by and large, no I don't like people. (I don't think she ever really got what I was saying). I'm coming up on thirty years of marriage, though, so there is at least one person I like to be around a lot.

I've never been social, but so was my father; so there was never any pressure to be social, and people being something not to be very fond of wasn't seen as "strange".

As for relationships: I had a few, usually long-lasting (For my age and the prevalent culture or social expectations here in current times; there were often people who openly discouraged my first relationship which lasted 8 years from age 16 on, telling me that it's "not good" to stay with one person, I'm young, I'd have to "make different experiences" - it disgusted me, truly, I loved that man more than my own life, and people told me I should break up just because "young people should try out different relationships to learn" for whatever reasons; 20 years later I can say that I didn't come across any situation yet that made me regret whatever "missed lesson" there could have been earlier, but if I had listened to them back then, I'd have missed the most beautiful years of my life - certainly didn't contribute positively towards my opinion of most people. Made me wonder whether they hate to see someone being happy and want that person to be as unhappy as they are...), and they mostly consisted of doing what I usually do alone together, and sharing annoyance when ever people thought of disturbing our peace

I think it's weird when people give blanket advice like that, as if there's only one way to experience life. As if you can only have new and different experiences when you're young, or that you can't appreciate a loving, steady relationship until you're older. My husband and I have been together for thirty-three years (we got married after being together for three years) and I know I didn't miss out by not "dating around" when younger. So, yeah, people need to back off with their weird advice.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Vanny's staff. (That thing might have some form of sentience).

Must be a horrible fate being a sentient staff.

I dunno. If all you've ever known is being a staff, you probably don't mind it so much.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for artifacts, didn't you plunder the mages guild? Or are you still working on that plan?

Found nothing of interest there. Still working on it.

Next time I'm there, I'll just casually ask where they store all those artifacts I retrieved for them. They must have some sort of central storage facility.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And couldn't you just summon a daedra servant? Or is there something special about having one traded for a sacrifice?

Summonings aren't permanent.

Considering I never see a sorcerer without one or two daedra following them around, I assumed there was some way to make them permanent residents.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Not that you can't sacrifice them all if you want. I just don't think the three of them together add up to the value of one Great Mage. Or were you not thinking of a trade situation? You were probably thinking of dark rituals again, weren't you?

What makes you think that?

Gosh, I don't know.

Syldras wrote: »

Well, actually I don't care whether it's a dark ritual or I sell them to anyone who'd want them, they certainly interest me less than Vanny. The sad thing truly is

that Gabrielle was the only one I liked a bit. The rest ranges somewhere between "uninteresting" and "annoying" for me.

Yeah, I was

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was thinking more like, they die (by natural means or others) and the fungus reduces them to compost--that sort of consumption. Otherwise, I dunno, spore infestation, fungal infection, outright poison?

*takes notes* That calls for some interesting experiments.

Let me know the results!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

See, so far they've done a great job of giving the companions their own distinct personalities. If they could keep that in mind when creating any companion romance options, they might be able to pull it off. But if it's all just: give gifts, brash flirting, boom, you're in love...well, no thanks to that.

We'll see, I guess. I'm sceptical, though.

Oh, so am I. For all I know, they are, too, because other than once saying it was a possibility at some point, they haven't hinted about developing such a system.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think it's weird when people give blanket advice like that, as if there's only one way to experience life. As if you can only have new and different experiences when you're young, or that you can't appreciate a loving, steady relationship until you're older.

It was weird. Countless times, people didn't take my relationship (or even just my feelings) seriously. Stupid comments all the time ("At your age, it won't last for half a year.", "In two months at most, you'll swoon over someone else.", "You're too young to know what love even means.", "All you young people know is physical attraction, that's just hormones/puberty, there's nothing more to it.") - that coming from adults, even from teachers when they overheard me talking to classmates about my partner. They knew very little about me and nothing at all about him (and now imagine the dumb faces they made when I could tell them at some point that the relationship already lasted longer than their last marriage ). And those were the "well-meaning" ones; add to that direct homophobic attacks... But maybe I should be thankful. At least it pushed us into an "us against the world" situation and just brought us closer together.

I got told plenty of times, when I made some statement about my future when I was young, that "Oh, you'll change your mind when you get older." My ideas and feelings just outright dismissed. (One example: I decided in my teens I didn't want to have children. "You'll change your mind." Years go by, I get married, don't have kids. "When are you having kids?" Me: "I'm not." Them: "You'll change your mind." Spoiler: I never changed my mind.) I guess it's just people thinking along norms; since most people do something or act a certain way, all must do so! Or that because that's how they were, that's how everyone is. I am glad all that pressure from external sources didn't wreck your relationship.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I dunno. If all you've ever known is being a staff, you probably don't mind it so much.

It could get bored of, well, glowing, and being carried or even thrown around at some point.

I guess it depends on what your expectations of staff life are. Or if you notice how other staves get treated and realize you have it worse.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Next time I'm there, I'll just casually ask where they store all those artifacts I retrieved for them. They must have some sort of central storage facility.

Maybe they don't. It's not worth it if they get stolen every 3 days anyway.

You're right; they are rather incompetent in that regard.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering I never see a sorcerer without one or two daedra following them around, I assumed there was some way to make them permanent residents.

Who knows, maybe they made some obscure bargain with some Daedric Prince and sold them their soul, or their grandpa, or their first-born child. All I can say is that I did not, and my daedra are only short-time visitors.

Yours is probably the wiser course. Either that or your soul was already spoken for and you'd already bargained away your family.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, so am I. For all I know, they are, too, because other than once saying it was a possibility at some point, they haven't hinted about developing such a system.

Didn't they say they do have that in mind, but it would need testing first? I do believe that what we see now might be the test. It's not the first time they test something in an earlier chapter first and then make more of it a year later or so.

I know they said they had it in mind as a possibility; I don't remember them mentioning testing. I thought it was a "in the future, it's possible," line around the time companions first were introduced, and that their focus was getting the companion system up and running as is before adding elements. But I certainly don't catch everything they say about future plans, so I'll go with your memory of it. If the player response system is somehow tied into it, well, I have mixed feelings.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I got told plenty of times, when I made some statement about my future when I was young, that "Oh, you'll change your mind when you get older." My ideas and feelings just outright dismissed. (One example: I decided in my teens I didn't want to have children. "You'll change your mind." Years go by, I get married, don't have kids. "When are you having kids?" Me: "I'm not." Them: "You'll change your mind." Spoiler: I never changed my mind.) I guess it's just people thinking along norms; since most people do something or act a certain way, all must do so! Or that because that's how they were, that's how everyone is.

Same, exactly the same, including that specific example (and I have several friends too who experienced the same thing). Scariest part might be that it already started around age 11 or so. I can honestly remember it: "One day, when you have kids..." - "I don't want kids." - "Oh, you'll change your mind when you're older!" They always assume that you're straight and will marry and will have children at some point (well, the "marriage and children" part also if you turn out to be gay later, they'll still assume that you'll think about marriage and adoption at least). And if you don't, you're "weird".

It's always interesting to me that certain experiences transcend cultures and time periods. In my case, the "don't want kids" was seen as especially strange, because how could I not want to be a mother? (Somehow, for women, it's doubly assumed you really want those kids). And yeah, I got the "when you have kids you'll understand," moments way before I hit my teens. It's usually said without much thought, because of the assumption that, of course everyone will grow up and have kids some day. I am most definitely the "weird" one in my family.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I am glad all that pressure from external sources didn't wreck your relationship.

We wrecked it ourselves years later, but it ended for completely different reasons than anyone prognosed, and we had absolutely awesome years at least. I was truly living my best life.

That's great! (Not the wrecking part, the awesome years part). But, really, if a relationship is going to end, it should end because it doesn't work for the people in it, not because someone outside it says so.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess it depends on what your expectations of staff life are. Or if you notice how other staves get treated and realize you have it worse.

The staff of the Great Mage is certainly lucky in that regard. Did he even carry a staff before this one? I can't remember.

If he did (and I think he might have) it didn't look anything like the current one. It might have been generic Altmer staff design 2 or something. I'll have a look-see next time I encounter his earlier version in game.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yours is probably the wiser course. Either that or your soul was already spoken for and you'd already bargained away your family.

I don't bargain away family - only people I don't care for. Unfortunately, most people don't want those either. And as for my soul,... well, that's a different story.

Oh, there's a member or two of my family I might bargain away...ah, not really, I suppose. Probably. But I thought you would have plenty of bargaining chips in the basement of your tower. Or are those the ones no one else wants either?

Should I not ask about the story of your soul?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know they said they had it in mind as a possibility; I don't remember them mentioning testing. I thought it was a "in the future, it's possible," line around the time companions first were introduced, and that their focus was getting the companion system up and running as is before adding elements. But I certainly don't catch everything they say about future plans, so I'll go with your memory of it. If the player response system is somehow tied into it, well, I have mixed feelings.

I think they will not implement it next year (Wouldn't really fit the Dark Brotherhood theme, would it?), so they still have some years to work on it, at least.

Murder and romance! Haha, no, it wouldn't fit the theme at all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If he did (and I think he might have) it didn't look anything like the current one. It might have been generic Altmer staff design 2 or something. I'll have a look-see next time I encounter his earlier version in game.

I checked it on screenshots. It's the Ayleid/Ancient Elf style. That looked rather clunky compared to most newer styles available now, so it's good they changed it, just as they did with the robe.

Agreed! He looks so much more Great Magey now. Why was he wearing adept robes for so long, anyway? Even Telenger had better robes than Vanny.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, there's a member or two of my family I might bargain away...ah, not really, I suppose. Probably. But I thought you would have plenty of bargaining chips in the basement of your tower. Or are those the ones no one else wants either?

Some of them. There's a Breton; I'm not even sure what I still keep him for.

His musical screams?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Should I not ask about the story of your soul?

Oh, nothing exciting, really. I just sold it to so many entities, I can't even remember who I sold it to first.

And while we're discussing summonings...
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal

Haha, yes, I remember reading that book a long time ago. There's something rather savage about Vanny summoning one of Molag Bal's dremora to help kill Molag Bal's human cultists. I also like the bit about the dremora having a poor sense of direction--right there with you, creature!

But mostly what I took from the text was that summoning a dremora is not a usual thing a mortal can do, and that itself is a sign of Vanny's power and ability.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Murder and romance! Haha, no, it wouldn't fit the theme at all.

Maybe at one of Sanguine's parties in a different dimension where safety doesn't matter

Lol, maybe!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Agreed! He looks so much more Great Magey now. Why was he wearing adept robes for so long, anyway?

That's another question I'd like to ask him.

We're compiling quite list of questions to ask. Wonder how much patience he'll have for it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

His musical screams?

Well, I want to be honest: I might be a little miserly in that regard. I always think I might find a use for him some day...

I feel like this is a clue to some mystery I'm meant to solve, or a riddle I'm supposed to untangle.

Are Bretons the least represented among your prisoners? Sorry, guests?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Haha, yes, I remember reading that book a long time ago. There's something rather savage about Vanny summoning one of Molag Bal's dremora to help kill Molag Bal's human cultists. I also like the bit about the dremora having a poor sense of direction--right there with you, creature!
But mostly what I took from the text was that summoning a dremora is not a usual thing a mortal can do, and that itself is a sign of Vanny's power and ability.

I'm surprised he ever left his office at all.

But most of all it reads as making fun of how dremora summoning felt in the TES games in which it was possible (and you didn't have to be that powerful to do it... although of course, it was, from the narrational viewpoint, often treated as a symbol of power - Archmagister Gothren also had dremora guards by his side, after all). The typical lines they yelled, and yes, also their horrible sense of direction. It's just funny somehow that they chose Vanny of all people to be the summoner here.

I also found a source about indeed Mannimarco being involved with Queen Morgiah's first-born son somehow - well, I don't find it anymore right now, but I read it and it was somehow nice to see that this speculation that came up after the release of Daggerfall indeed had been confirmed at some point.

I never played magic users in the TES games and never summoned any dremora, so I didn't catch that reference. Basically, this is my TES experience. (All games played at the time of their original release)
Arena: Encountered game-breaking bug about two-thirds of the way through; never finished
Daggerfall: Played for awhile, stalled out by bugs, got bored, never finished.
Morrowind: Played the heck out of it!
Oblivion: Played for awhile, didn't like it, quit.
Skyrim: Played through, enjoyed quite a lot, still like Morrowind better, when are they going to remaster Morrowind?

Anyway, I like that Vanny summons dremora when the mood strikes. And now we can add that to his list of hobbies!

When you say Mannimarco was involved with Queen Morgiah's first-born son, are you referring to the idea you mentioned before about him making a deal with her to get a new body for himself?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, maybe!

Let's just hope we won't see more Sanguine themed content that early. Of course we could still assume that the portrayal how we saw it on Solstice was an exception (because "remote island, different traditions, etc", as little sense as it makes from a lore perspective), but I'm not sure about that. So who knows how the next Sanguine quest in game would look like if it was written right now.

Honestly, I'd be fine with never having any more Sanguine content. His Skyrim quest wasn't, to my mind, even that interesting. You start drinking with him, black out, and then run around the various holds correcting the mistakes you made during your supposed debaucheries. Then at the end I think you confront him or go to a pocket of his realm, and...I forget. Get some reward, I suppose, for fixing everything you broke. I think he might be one of the princes it would be too hard for them to accurately represent in a game.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We're compiling quite list of questions to ask. Wonder how much patience he'll have for it?

We'll make him listen.

Sounds a bit ominous, but ok!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Are Bretons the least represented among your prisoners? Sorry, guests?

No, Orcs and Redguards visit even less often.

Ok, next question. Is this Breton somehow notable?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Skyrim: Played through, enjoyed quite a lot, still like Morrowind better, when are they going to remaster Morrowind?

Not sure if there will ever be an official remaster, but have you heard about Skywind?

I have, yes. Waiting, and waiting, and then waiting some more, with varying levels of patience.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, I like that Vanny summons dremora when the mood strikes. And now we can add that to his list of hobbies!

Or the dremora was lying.

Sure, but that's a pretty involved lie if so, and I always understood that dremora aren't the most creative of individuals.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

When you say Mannimarco was involved with Queen Morgiah's first-born son, are you referring to the idea you mentioned before about him making a deal with her to get a new body for himself?

In principle, yes. It was rather vague. Something about some favor or loyalty the son owed him. But it confirms that "the first" indeed refered to the first-born son, and the body donor thing still sounds plausible. The vessel would need to grow and ripen for a while, after all. Not sure whether Mannimarco would want to inhabit a body still going through puberty.

I'm guessing no. But he also wouldn't want to wait too long; gotta get the maximum use out of it. Did the son know that was his fate?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Honestly, I'd be fine with never having any more Sanguine content. His Skyrim quest wasn't, to my mind, even that interesting. You start drinking with him, black out, and then run around the various holds correcting the mistakes you made during your supposed debaucheries. Then at the end I think you confront him or go to a pocket of his realm, and...I forget. Get some reward, I suppose, for fixing everything you broke. I think he might be one of the princes it would be too hard for them to accurately represent in a game.

Indeed, the Skyrim quest also wasn't that interesting - although still even more so than the latest ones on Solstice - , but I'd actually like to see them do something with the lore we have for once. There are a few aspects that might be interesting. And while I can understand that some of it might be too brutal, it can certainly done a bit more true to lore than what we saw now.

True, they could make another stab at presenting it closer to what it would be like. They did it well enough with the public dungeon, and they could perhaps use set dressing to indicate some of what else goes on even if they don't reference it outright. But they'll still have to allow player characters to come and go as they please, which won't fit the theme. But if we broke out of Coldharbour, I guess we can break out of...whatever Sanguine names his place.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sounds a bit ominous, but ok!

You're only saying that because I'm a Telvanni

Maaaybe.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, next question. Is this Breton somehow notable?

At first I thought so, but nobody wants to pay the ransom, so probably not.

That's not an actionable clue! Ok, my fault really. Question was too open-ended. Who did you ask for the ransom money?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm guessing no. But he also wouldn't want to wait too long; gotta get the maximum use out of it. Did the son know that was his fate?

Well, he knew that something awaited him, and wasn't really looking forward to it.

I got another hint on how Vanny spends his days, by the way:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_the_Utility_of_Shock_Magic
Imagine you're the Great Mage, and all people do is treating you like some drole pet that can show a few amusing tricks.

Just one of the things he has to put up with in order to peddle his influence in the highest courts of the land! I do like that book, though. Just reread it the other day (it's one of the books hanging out by the subclass npc). His disdain for and dismissal of fire and frost is so very Great Mage. I also imagine he gets quite a kick out of "riding the lightning."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

True, they could make another stab at presenting it closer to what it would be like. They did it well enough with the public dungeon, and they could perhaps use set dressing to indicate some of what else goes on even if they don't reference it outright. But they'll still have to allow player characters to come and go as they please, which won't fit the theme. But if we broke out of Coldharbour, I guess we can break out of...whatever Sanguine names his place.

It might also be a quest where we contribute to the misery assist Sanguine with something as his "champion". Then he might let us come and leave as we wish because he favors us and we're not just one of his pitiful guests. Also he might hope we will spread his influence all over Tamriel (and beyond).

True. That is mostly how we got in and out of Sanguine's Demense in the game. We had to get other people to join the party. But then I'll have to think of a reason for why my character would assist Sanguine, and that will be difficult.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maaaybe.

People always assume the worst. It's a little tiresome, really Even if I just ask people a simple question, they always consider it a threat and fear for their life.

I can see that, but I'm not assuming the worst based on nothing, you know. I've heard things, some of them from you.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Who did you ask for the ransom money?

The Breton's family. Or anyone else, really, after the family didn't care, but to no avail yet.

*mutters to self* This Telvanni is more coy than that goat.
*ahem*
Names! What were their names! I'll never solve this mystery this way. But I have to suppose that's the point.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Just one of the things he has to put up with in order to peddle his influence in the highest courts of the land! I do like that book, though. Just reread it the other day (it's one of the books hanging out by the subclass npc). His disdain for and dismissal of fire and frost is so very Great Mage. I also imagine he gets quite a kick out of "riding the lightning."

He has to compensate for his usually rather boring daily schedule, I guess. So he does such things, or... you know, gets himself kidnapped on purpose. It's a bit tragic, really; if he had stayed with Mannimarco, he would probably lead a very exciting life (including that "damsel in distress" thing, if he truly enjoys that so much)!

Is his daily schedule really that boring, though? I mean, we don't know from anything he tells us, but we're piecing together a pretty good picture. He conjures fireballs for bored and stupid nobles. He rides the lightning to get from place to place. He summons dremora for a bit of worm cult whacking. He flings lightning bolts at anyone who gets in his way/annoys him. He gets kidnapped on purpose for reasons. Oh, and we also know he summons lots of people to visit him so he can set them off on an adventure that may or may not benefit them.

If he'd stayed with Mannimarco, he might've ended up in Coldharbour chained to a slab next to him. Then he wouldn't have been able to create his new staff, get a haircut, find new robes, get captured, toss the staff to Gabrielle, and have the staff lead us through our latest endeavors.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

True. That is mostly how we got in and out of Sanguine's Demense in the game. We had to get other people to join the party. But then I'll have to think of a reason for why my character would assist Sanguine, and that will be difficult.

But isn't that the case with all quests where we do something for a Daedric Prince (We also had to work for Hermaeus Mora, after all, and for several others)? Oh, and actually not even just daedra quests - the biggest case of "Why am I doing this?" was actually this chapter's Dibella cultist quest.

Yes, but some quests it's a lot easier to figure out than others. For the Dibella cultists, I decided my character was interested in seeing what a Sanguine party might be like where he didn't have to doom others to join it (having found and read a journal out in the wild, he knew the key to surviving was to not partake of any wine at the party), and since he was going in anyway, he may as well talk to some Dibellans if he found them. So, having seen how one Sanguine party worked, he was curious enough to get him through the tent's entrance. But as to helping Sanguine himself, that would be more difficult, since this character always wants to spite the daedric princes (with, as you can imagine, wildly varying degrees of success).

Of course, in reality, I'm going to do it because it's a quest in a game I enjoy playing, and I want to experience the story content. It's just so much more fun if I can make it align with my character.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I can see that, but I'm not assuming the worst based on nothing, you know. I've heard things, some of them from you.

Is it seen as so horrible nowadays to house guests in your, uhm, special guest chambers? I talked to many of my Telvanni friends and colleagues about this and no one found it unusual!

How very unexpected that your Telvanni friends and colleagues see nothing strange about Telvanni ways and means.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Names! What were their names! I'll never solve this mystery this way. But I have to suppose that's the point.

Names? Well, that might be a little... problematic. Of course I knew the name once, otherwise I couldn't have sent a ransom note to his family, after all, but... it's been a while. And now I can't even ask him because, you know, when ever I open the hatch to his guest room, he just... screams.

Why didn't you write it down somewhere? Don't you keep notes? I was led to believe you kept good records!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If he'd stayed with Mannimarco, he might've ended up in Coldharbour chained to a slab next to him. Then he wouldn't have been able to create his new staff, get a haircut, find new robes, get captured, toss the staff to Gabrielle, and have the staff lead us through our latest endeavors.

But maybe it wouldn't have ended like this if they would have worked together! Two evil wizards are much more powerful than just one, after all. Especially if one of the evil wizards is the Great Mage.

You're right. They would have succeeded in their plans, and we'd all be living in Coldharbour-Tamriel and bowing down to two Altmer gods instead of one.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Is his daily schedule really that boring, though? I mean, we don't know from anything he tells us, but we're piecing together a pretty good picture. He conjures fireballs for bored and stupid nobles. He rides the lightning to get from place to place. He summons dremora for a bit of worm cult whacking. He flings lightning bolts at anyone who gets in his way/annoys him. He gets kidnapped on purpose for reasons. Oh, and we also know he summons lots of people to visit him so he can set them off on an adventure that may or may not benefit them.

He claims to do those things, but for most, we have no proof What we actually saw in game was rather unexciting.

Oh, now you want proof!

We don't actually see anyone doing anything much in game, when you think about it. Unless they accompany us on whatever mission they send us out on, their abilities are always just told, not shown.

Syldras wrote: »

We know he's a liar! Look at how he frames his relationship to Mannimarco here:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Artaeum_Lost
Yes, yes, of course they were "rivals", and of course did he report Mannimarco's necromantic experiments as soon as he knew of them! (It is a blatant lie - can't be a lore mistake as this text was part of the Summerset chapter just as our visit to Artaeum was).

It's also interesting how vaguely he describes his early life - and how kitschy the isle of Artaeum; seems there's still a bit of the disposition left that he had when he was younger.

The part about Mannimarco swearing and Vanny expecting him to be locked away also sounds a bit funny, as it sounds like the swearing was the horrible thing

Also, the isle vanishing after Vanny left - they probably had enough of all the drama...

Title of the text is interesting, too; an allusion to John Milton's "Paradise Lost"? Which comes close to what I wrote a while ago in this thread (and a certain figure we compared Mannimarco with).

And again, it truly makes me wonder what Mannimarco did immediately after having been expelled from Artaeum. It's not like you can just randomly found a cult out of the blue. So, he was back in Tamriel with nothing, what did he do? Return to his family? Or didn't he dare to, but then what? I really hope we'll gain some insights into this some day. At best in Part 2 of the current story. Yes, I know, how probable is that...

That's a very interesting autobiography!

So much of the trauma of his early years summed up and disposed of with the line: Circumstances forced me to leave that life behind, and the Psijics discovered my talents shortly thereafter. I don't blame him for not wanting to go into details, but it has a very hand-wavey aspect to it, a "we don't need to go into all that" dismissive air.

He actually sounds a bit sad that the Old Ways wouldn't permit him and Mannimarco to be rivals, like he wanted a competitor to add a little zest to his life. I guess chatty nixads and rocks with super long names can only provide so much excitement to a young and eager mage looking to test his skills.

His "discovery" of Mannimarco practicing necromancy is pretty clearly a lie, which shows he has no idea of what we all see in the Traitor's Vault. And he writes as if they're about to have this big confrontation, but then the island gets upset and so: Feeling the Island's anger all around us, we resolved to settle our dispute with the Ritemaster the next morning. That is so weird--they just put away their disagreement until they could talk it out with the Ritemaster after a good night's sleep. Not much of a sense of urgency there.

And then the scene of him just standing by, probably smugly, waiting for Iachesis to lock up foul-mouthed Mannimarco. At least he shows some emotion when that didn't happen--a first! Also, glad to know Vanny considers me a "gentle sheep."

Of course they disappeared the island right after Vanny left. Not a coincidence, indeed! Like you said, they were tired of the drama.

It does seem pretty clearly an allusion to Paradise Lost. The title, the conflict in paradise, and then expelling the evil down among the mortals.

Mannimarco's years between Artaeum and Planemeld would be interesting to find out about. At some point he insinuated himself into Varen's inner circle, so he must have been working the political scene to some extent. You know what I find kind of funny? Mannimarco convinces Varen he can reignite the dragon fires with a ritual involving the amulet of kings, and then when they perform the ritual, and it doesn't work, he mocks Varen for thinking it could have worked. (This is all according to the Prophet's memories/mind palace he takes us to. Is it accurate? Who's to say? Not the Prophet--that dude's been sacrificed). It just seems so unnecessarily snarky on Mannimarco's part. He knew the ritual wasn't going to work, knew the whole thing was a lie, and yet he just couldn't help himself from mocking Varen.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How very unexpected that your Telvanni friends and colleagues see nothing strange about Telvanni ways and means.

My Bosmer also never complained so far!

"So far" being the operative phrase!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Why didn't you write it down somewhere? Don't you keep notes? I was led to believe you kept good records!

I guess it didn't seem important enough to me.

It seems quite clear to me that your entire operation is run in a rather slip-shod manner. You need an efficiency expert to get things whipped into order.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You're right. They would have succeeded in their plans, and we'd all be living in Coldharbour-Tamriel and bowing down to two Altmer gods instead of one.

Maybe the place wouldn't be that bad... It might appeal to the demography of evil wizards, warlocks and necromancers.

How large do you think that demography is? It seems we are always running into them somewhere, so my guess is that the group is pretty sizable.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We don't actually see anyone doing anything much in game, when you think about it. Unless they accompany us on whatever mission they send us out on, their abilities are always just told, not shown.

In case of Revus, we saw what he's capable of and also got introduced to his hobbies

Well, Revus is an exceptional exception! Love that guy!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So much of the trauma of his early years summed up and disposed of with the line: Circumstances forced me to leave that life behind, and the Psijics discovered my talents shortly thereafter. I don't blame him for not wanting to go into details, but it has a very hand-wavey aspect to it, a "we don't need to go into all that" dismissive air.

Either he still suffers or he has mentally erased it. Like all or most of his emotions, it seems.

Yes, and that adds to the weight of his life story. It's rather tragic.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He actually sounds a bit sad that the Old Ways wouldn't permit him and Mannimarco to be rivals, like he wanted a competitor to add a little zest to his life. I guess chatty nixads and rocks with super long names can only provide so much excitement to a young and eager mage looking to test his skills.

Or maybe he rather makes it sound like there was always some adversary aspect because in an official biography aimed at Mages Guild members "I was deeply in love with Mannimarco and didn't dare to report him to Iachesis for a whole while" wouldn't be well received. Who knows, maybe he was even tempted at times to just join him, no matter how much it contradicted the morals he had been taught?

While I can believe he might emphasize their differences as a sort of blind or shield, I also think he would have derived enjoyment out of an outright rivalry with Mannimarco, even with them being friends. The common idea being that it would spur on his own creativity with magic, pushing him to achieve more.

Syldras wrote: »

He also mentions their "contradictory natures" - I could imagine that was part of what he actually found appealing about Mannimarco. Although they're not completely different, of course, they have the nice common basis of being dramatic

Couple of drama kings, for sure!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

His "discovery" of Mannimarco practicing necromancy is pretty clearly a lie, which shows he has no idea of what we all see in the Traitor's Vault.

I guess if he knew it would scare him. He clearly doesn't want anyone to know that he could have ever been anything other than a rival to Mannimarco (and if he ever was friendly towards him, it was only because of the house rules, of course!). Who knows what he truly feels, or felt when he wrote that.

Nobody does know how he felt, and nobody ever will. At least not from him directly. Another tragic aspect to him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It does seem pretty clearly an allusion to Paradise Lost. The title, the conflict in paradise, and then expelling the evil down among the mortals.

It's fascinating we came to the same conclusion, isn't it?

Agreed!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Mannimarco's years between Artaeum and Planemeld would be interesting to find out about. At some point he insinuated himself into Varen's inner circle, so he must have been working the political scene to some extent. You know what I find kind of funny? Mannimarco convinces Varen he can reignite the dragon fires with a ritual involving the amulet of kings, and then when they perform the ritual, and it doesn't work, he mocks Varen for thinking it could have worked. (This is all according to the Prophet's memories/mind palace he takes us to. Is it accurate? Who's to say? Not the Prophet--that dude's been sacrificed). It just seems so unnecessarily snarky on Mannimarco's part. He knew the ritual wasn't going to work, knew the whole thing was a lie, and yet he just couldn't help himself from mocking Varen.

I find it amusing. But then again, I'm an evil wizard

Well, I did say I found it funny! Ok, I said 'kind of funny'. Of course, I'm not an evil wizard.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It seems quite clear to me that your entire operation is run in a rather slip-shod manner. You need an efficiency expert to get things whipped into order.

Maybe the Bosmer is distracting me with... the things he's doing!

Ok, this is the part where my curiosity gets the better of my manners and I ask: what is he doing?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How large do you think that demography is? It seems we are always running into them somewhere, so my guess is that the group is pretty sizable.

While I do, at times, confer with other evil wizards, I cannot say for sure. It's not like we have a labor union or something like that, after all.

I would have thought you kept tabs on them all for other reasons.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, Revus is an exceptional exception! Love that guy!

I've been wondering whether it's exactly that which makes him likeable (I mean, apart from his charming character): that we actually learn more about him, even just in the short quest or questline he had, than about many other quest npcs. There are many quest npcs, even more central ones, we know almost nothing about.

I think it is, at least in part. The more you learn about someone, the more chances there are to connect with them on some level. He is such a good and interesting character, I would like to see him again (where it makes sense!) but I will always worry that next time he shows up he won't be the same.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Nobody does know how he felt, and nobody ever will. At least not from him directly. Another tragic aspect to him.

And if they just kill him now, wasted narrative potential. I hate wasted potential, did I already mention that?

Maybe once or twice. But I agree with you on that.

Syldras wrote: »

I've also recently thought about that story part of Vanny leaving Artaeum - not only to follow Mannimarco (let's say to bring him to reason somehow; I honestly don't believe he immediately had the goal to just lock him away forever or even kill him) - but to make magic openly available to the common people. There's a bit of Prometheus in that, no? Who stole the fire from the gods to share it with humanity.

So we have Vanny as the bringer of fire and Mannimarco as the Lightbringer (to use that name); although there's even an overlap in the characterization of both mythical figures; they both rebel against gods, and (according to some interpretations in the latter case), they have brought knowledge to the common people - and one of them is a rather positive (but tragic) character, the other one, well, mostly interpreted as "evil".

If we think of Mannimarco as a character who's mirroring the Lightbringer... that also leads to interesting interpretations. (Same for Vanny as Prometheus, of course; and we can argue whose fate was worse in the end.)

That is an interesting correlation. Psijics did like to keep their secrets and their power away from the common people and, after the rebels left/were kicked out, they separated themselves even further.

I really don't know how much we can discuss this here without getting into moderation territory, but if we liken Mannimarco to the Lightbringer, there's also the notion of self-deification that strengthens the parallel. And you could consider Mannimarco as bringing knowledge to the common people (oh, those gentle sheep) in the form of necromantic practices.

If we talk about Vanny's fate, I'm just going to get sad about it. There are even parallels there with Prometheus, taking into account body horror and inability to do anything about it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, this is the part where my curiosity gets the better of my manners and I ask: what is he doing?

I don't babble out personal habits

Your one area of restraint, eh?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would have thought you kept tabs on them all for other reasons.

But not on all wizards of Tamriel and beyond. That would be a lot of work; I wouldn't have time for my other important plans then! Like conducting obscure experiments, teaching my Bosmer hidden lore, and drinking tea. Also, I have to brush his hair, as long as we don't find a new hair-brushing servant.

Didn't the crate of Dwemer parts and the automated hair brush arrive? I know I sent it and have been expecting my tonal-dampening earmuffs as payment.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If we talk about Vanny's fate, I'm just going to get sad about it. There are even parallels there with Prometheus, taking into account body horror and inability to do anything about it.

It's also interesting that according to ancient Greek beliefs, the liver was the seat of emotions. In case of Prometheus, it was eaten completely, only to regrow, and to be eaten again.

At least Prometheus was saved by a hero at some point. Maybe there's hope for Vanny in the far future; although I'm really not sure how much is left of him then.

Especially since we don't actually know if Vanny the thrall has Vanny the Great Mage's thoughts, personality, or spark. Is he just puppetry at that point? If so, what is there even to save?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Your one area of restraint, eh?

I just respect the Bosmer and his right of privacy.

I never learned about that Bosmer tradition when I was traveling the Valenwood. Seems like those Bosmer mostly ignore the right of privacy.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Didn't the crate of Dwemer parts and the automated hair brush arrive? I know I sent it and have been expecting my tonal-dampening earmuffs as payment.

Not yet. I hope the courier didn't get lost somewhere. Not that this ended as another case of... death by cliff racer. Would be truly a pity if those parts would never arrive here.

I used a restored automaton as courier, so at most it would be disrepair by cliff racer. Raynor Vanos promised me the automaton would reliably deliver the crate, but he didn't give an exact time frame.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Especially since we don't actually know if Vanny the thrall has Vanny the Great Mage's thoughts, personality, or spark. Is he just puppetry at that point? If so, what is there even to save?

We have a written account that his corpse was stolen, but that might be unreliable - who ever wrote it or witnessed that certainly wasn't close enough to check whether Vanny was really dead (Unless he was in a very bad condition - although even then we don't know what a powerful necromancer would be capable of? If they can fully restore completely decayed corpses to the natural living form, they can certainly also heal severely injured living people, no?); and then we have a short line from Mannimarco in Oblivion which sounds... well:
"I developed a particular fondness for Galerion, ill-preserved though he may be."
But we know we can't trust everything he says either. And while that line alludes to Vanny having become a thrall, it's also not completely clear (but it's as obsessive as ever, of course). But, in any way, we only have two unreliable accounts and know that Mannimarco got hold of him. Whether dead or alive and in which state... we just don't know.

Ah...ok, so this gets trickier with all these unknowns and unreliable narrators. I suppose someone will just have to make a plan and hope there's something worthwhile to rescue.

What does he mean by "developed a certain fondness for" anyway? That certain fondness was always there, in some form or another, no matter how deeply buried. He does like to play fast and loose with the truth, doesn't he? And if Vanny is ill-preserved, whose fault is that? Take some personal responsibility, Mannimarco!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I never learned about that Bosmer tradition when I was traveling the Valenwood. Seems like those Bosmer mostly ignore the right of privacy.

I told you my Bosmer is a little unusual in some of his habits. Not all of them, of course, but some are a little peculiar.

I hope to someday talk to this Bosmer; he sounds quite interesting.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I used a restored automaton as courier, so at most it would be disrepair by cliff racer. Raynor Vanos promised me the automaton would reliably deliver the crate, but he didn't give an exact time frame.

Oh... Well, then it might take a while. I just hope it didn't fall into one of the many bodies of water here to never resurface again.

*sigh* I was really looking forward to those earmuffs.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ah...ok, so this gets trickier with all these unknowns and unreliable narrators. I suppose someone will just have to make a plan and hope there's something worthwhile to rescue.

I'm not sure whether we'll ever hear of Vanny again in some of the later TES games, to be honest. Then again, Mannimarco also has the habit of reappearing at times.

We may never know, considering the rate at which the single player games release.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What does he mean by "developed a certain fondness for" anyway? That certain fondness was always there, in some form or another, no matter how deeply buried. He does like to play fast and loose with the truth, doesn't he? And if Vanny is ill-preserved, whose fault is that? Take some personal responsibility, Mannimarco!

I think what we see there might be the ancient evil wizard and/or necromancer art of "If I say something creepy, people might leave and I don't have to talk to them".

Something gives me the idea you use that technique from time to time!

Syldras wrote: »

I'd been wondering when he developed his plans to become a god. I know power was an aspect he thought about already in Artaeum, but godhood? Might that plan not (or not only) be related to his Aldmer ideas, but also a direct reaction to the Psijics kicking him out? An act of revenge against them? Or maybe that applies to the Planemeld?

That would be an interesting detail to learn. What we see of him in Artaeum, he clearly thinks he's above everyone and doesn't need to pay attention to any trifling rules or regulations, so he could have been thinking of himself along those lines already, if not as clearly or specifically as we later see. Then getting kicked out spurred him on, so to speak, and in the end the Planemeld and his collusion with Molag Bal served two purposes: achieve godhood and get revenge.