Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Could you trade in soul gems for a clone? Because I've got lots of those, and they're mostly filled with mudcrab and skeever souls, but I wouldn't necessarily disclose that.

That might work, but... you might want to keep in mind that the quality of offered souls determines the quality of the clone. You might not want to use rancid old skeever souls for the process, unless you want a Mannimarco clone that... behaves accordingly.

Old, sure, I'll grant you that: I've had stacks of filled soul gems for years. But rancid? Do souls go rancid? If so, I may have to do a thorough cleaning of my bank vault.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, no, but then how fun to see how many different ways he could bash Vanny.

And who knows what kind of poetry Vanny writes...

I'm guessing it's very austere. He squeezes the most meaning out of the fewest words.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder if that's on his tombstone. "Here lies Mannimarco. A powerful necromancer who whined about his ex for over 350 years." Or engraved on that marble coffin at least.

I mean, he didn't do much else in those 350 years, did he?

Why did they even put him in that thing? Why didn't they resurrect him immediately? How long did they leave him rot? A whole 10 years? Hard to estimate what's left after that time, without knowing the exact circumstances of his storage, including temperature and humidity.

This is why we need a couple things clarified for the story.
1. How long has it been between the end of the main quest and the beginning of this one? (I never saw a confirmation; most they said was "some number of years").
2. How long was Mannimarco in Coldharbour? (Which means they probably need to make canon whether the Vestige freed him or not).

Because if he is in that coffin, we don't know how long he's been there. It could well be they've only had him in that thing for a week. I don't know how long it's meant to be in game between the prologue and the start of Solstice, or how long the Writhing Wall has been around, or how long the Worm Cult was being secretive and gathering souls and strength before we found out they were back.

As for why in the coffin in the first place, good question. A handy storage device until they could get everything they needed for the ritual? Maybe the coffin itself has some sort of magic imbued into it, for that fresh corpse look or something.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

This is why we need a couple things clarified for the story.

I really, really hope we get a satisfying explanation, and he didn't just end up dead - just like some people suddenly end up alive again after someone might have sacrificed them.

The biggest question I now have really is whether what we saw imprisoned in the end might have not been Mannimarco in his physical form, but just his soul (although for some reasons it didn't look like that). So maybe body and soul had been split from each other somehow, the body was recovered by Worm Cultists (probably), and the soul was, whether we freed him in the last scene or not, still bound to Coldharbour and couldn't leave? So who knows, maybe what the cultists are trying now is to pull the soul out of Coldharbour and merge it with the body again. At least that would be one explanation that makes sense to me more or less. Although I'm not sure whether that's the one the writers chose (if we get an explanation at all).

I was never sure if what we saw of him in Coldharbour was meant to be just his soul or his physical form as well. On the one hand, he's shackled, and you wouldn't think physical shackles would work on just a soul. On the other hand, it's Coldharbour and daedric magic, so who knows?

If it was his soul, his body could have been collected from Sancre Tor by his faithful devoted cultists (if there were even any left at that point).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

1. How long has it been between the end of the main quest and the beginning of this one? (I never saw a confirmation; most they said was "some number of years").

I somehow always imagine it were ten (and the events depicted in new chapters actually happen with a year between them - although that's still a lot of world-ending threats for a short timespan; and I think, during the first years at least, ZOS had official stated that time had not passed). But of course, there wasn't any real confirmation yet, or at least I've not seen any such statement.

I used to think time in game was progressing alongside real time, but then they said it's all happening at the same time, and I thought: no one could survive so many catastrophes in such a short amount of time. So if everything we've done up until Solstice all happened in the same year, how is anyone still sane in Tamriel?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Because if he is in that coffin, we don't know how long he's been there. It could well be they've only had him in that thing for a week.

I just wanted to write that, just for a week, they would certainly not build such an ornate sarcophagus - but then again, I'm almost sure that Mannimarco had that thing made before his death (and was very fussy about how exactly it should look like). Or... maybe not? How could he, being a powerful and invincible necromancer destined for godhood, ever die, after all?!

I don't think they'd dare to put him in anything less ornate, no matter how long they had to keep him in there. Could you imagine if they resurrected him, he got out of the sarcophagus, and he saw they'd been keeping him in a plain birch-board box? And if they did have his body since Sancre Tor, they would have time to gussy up the container nicely. Otherwise, I dunno...a wizard did it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for why in the coffin in the first place, good question. A handy storage device until they could get everything they needed for the ritual? Maybe the coffin itself has some sort of magic imbued into it, for that fresh corpse look or something.

Actually, a simple frost spell would probably be enough. But they probably used something more complicated, of course. Maybe more something that froze time, so decomposition could not progress. At least I'd do that, but what do I know of these things.

How long does a frost spell last? Someone might have to keep casting one. Or they could bind a frost atronach to it for a more perma-frost situation. I would hope minor cultists wouldn't have the magical ability to stop time. It's all well and good for a Telvanni to be able to do so, but do you want the average bumbling cultist with access to that kind of power?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think they'd dare to put him in anything less ornate, no matter how long they had to keep him in there. Could you imagine if they resurrected him, he got out of the sarcophagus, and he saw they'd been keeping him in a plain birch-board box? And if they did have his body since Sancre Tor, they would have time to gussy up the container nicely. Otherwise, I dunno...a wizard did it?

The craftmanship surely leaves much to be desired; either the sculptor (or Worm Cultist or who ever made it) was not talented or the chosen stone was not the right one for the intended resting place's climate:

A rather crude depiction. Although it's strange that the facial features are already weathered but there are still sharp edges on the staff.

(Seriously: As an asset in this game, I do like it. It's beautiful, in a way. No complaints about that at all! But the amount of cracks and weathered details... that would not be a talented sculptor's work in real life; statues/reliefs should not decay that fast, and we're talking about 10 years in game time at most. That's what I mean).

Yeah, seen up close it certainly looks super old and weathered, unfinished, or inexpertly done. Something about the blank features on the face makes it creepy to me. I can imagine Mannimarco's complaints when he sees that. Or, who knows, maybe being dead and then not puts the smaller things like that into perspective.

I could see them having to get this done in a hurry, and I could also see whichever cultist got the job being out of their depth when it came down to it. I also like it as an in-game asset. It's quite clear who it's meant to be, unlike many of the carved images we come across in game. (Thinking of the various tombs and whatnot we've had to go in to solve a problem; most often the statuary or carved tomb lids could be anyone).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would hope minor cultists wouldn't have the magical ability to stop time. It's all well and good for a Telvanni to be able to do so, but do you want the average bumbling cultist with access to that kind of power?

Considering most of the cultists seem to be idiots, Mannimarco can surely be glad if they didn't try to preserve him through curing like a sausage.

Lol...and also: gross!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, seen up close it certainly looks super old and weathered, unfinished, or inexpertly done.

Again it leads to the question how long he is supposed to have been dead. I'd rather assume 10 years than a week when looking at that thing. Unless he indead already had the sarcophagus prepared long before his death (at earliest 350 years ago - although it would be a strange thing to do immediately upon reaching Tamriel).

Of course another question comes up: It's certainly heavy - can it be transported or has it been there for a longer time, like, say even longer than Mannimarco had been dead? Maybe he had been living on Solstice - when ever he wasn't doing something horribly evil somewhere else of course - during the last few decades or even centuries (except for that escapade with the Companions)? Maybe it's the place he returned home to after leaving Artaeum?

I'll go with ten years, because that makes the idea that the Worm Cult is powerful again a little more plausible. They would have needed time to regroup, gather resources and power, and invent their new soul reapers. (I finally came across one of those in the world today).

The loading screen for where it's found say the Worm Cult took over the place, but again, don't know how long that's been. It would be an odd place for it to have been created, so I'd say it had to have been brought there. I also think Mannimarco had some ties with Solstice, whether or not he was from Clan Corelanya. He might have been drawn to it for other reasons, and made provisions for various circumstances. I say all this having not done anything more on the main quest other than find the scattered representatives.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Something about the blank features on the face makes it creepy to me. I can imagine Mannimarco's complaints when he sees that. Or, who knows, maybe being dead and then not puts the smaller things like that into perspective.

Maybe the cultists believe that rubbing the effigy's face grants luck and rubbed it a little too often.

They would! Silly cultists.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'll go with ten years, because that makes the idea that the Worm Cult is powerful again a little more plausible.

Wait until they tell us that everything still happens at the same time - then it will get confusing

Nooooo!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They would have needed time to regroup, gather resources and power, and invent their new soul reapers. (I finally came across one of those in the world today).

Did anything interesting happen? The one I found a few days ago was just the same as the old things, just with a soul reaper standing around instead of that dark floating cloud.

There were more waves than a mini-dolmen, and the daedra and worm cultists that spawned did some loose-lipped smack talk, and then of course you dismantle the soul reaper. There were two citizen npcs standing there, guarded (?) by a fighters guild npc, who voiced some manner of thanks after.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It would be an odd place for it to have been created, so I'd say it had to have been brought there.

If I look closely at the stone, it could be from that place. Who knows. Then again, I found a letter earlier from Worm Cultists about an "important delivery" - I assumed it's Mannimarco, but who knows, maybe it's not but they meant Vanny? He also must be imprisoned somewhere, after all (Or might they keep him in a daedric pocket realm? He said something at the end of the prologue, but I can't fully remember right now - but anyway, that wouldn't mean he's still here.).

I think he said he was in a cell in a place that was like Coldharbour but also not. He also said that was a problem for later. So pocket realm could be it. I'm going to do another step or two on the main quest; maybe I'll get some pertinent information.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think he said he was in a cell in a place that was like Coldharbour but also not.

From the quests I did so far, I'm quite sure where he is. I mean, not very exactly, but tendentially.

So he could also be the "delivery". Hm.

You must be further along than I am? Or I'm missing something? I don't remember Vanny coming up at all, except when I "found" Gabrielle and she said Vanny's staff reacted to the place she was. And I didn't find that missive about the delivery. Oh, I should get on to the main quest, and I meant to tonight, but I'm too tired now to do it justice.

Long day, and I keep chatting on the forums instead of playing the game!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You must be further along than I am? Or I'm missing something? I don't remember Vanny coming up at all, except when I "found" Gabrielle and she said Vanny's staff reacted to the place she was.

I haven't touched the main quest so far except for finding the 3 missing people. Didn't even return to Sunport yet.

Vanny isn't directly mentioned, but "Coldharbour but not quite" fits 100% what I'm expecting behind the wall.

Oh, ok. Yeah, based on what is likely behind the wall, that makes sense.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And I didn't find that missive about the delivery.

It was in the letter in that room where Skordo was.

I'm going to be so upset with myself if I missed that! Time to check the eidetic memory. I've been making such a point of looking around, too, and that room wasn't that big, either.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I should get on to the main quest, and I meant to tonight, but I'm too tired now to do it justice.
Long day, and I keep chatting on the forums instead of playing the game!

Sometimes the forum is more surprising, at least

We still don't know who Wormblood is, if Mannimarco is currently boxed. A cousin? A brother? Would be rather long-lived then, considering that person is probably not as powerful magically as Mannimarco.

I'm so used to thinking of Wormblood as Mannimarco I neglected to factor him into it all. But if they are resurrecting Mannimarco, then he couldn't be Wormblood, since Wormblood has been giving orders or leading the revived cult.

I'm going to sleep now. Maybe all the answers will come to me in a dream.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm going to sleep now. Maybe all the answers will come to me in a dream.

Well, good luck! I only dream of withered... what was it? Oh, and there was another fragment about a burning corpse and a wholly different being appearing in the flame, a day later. Some animal it was. No, not a bird. It was interesting. Nothing scary about it, just something to observe and marvel at.

Well, no dream answers, but as I was falling asleep, I thought to myself: oh, I did read that Worm Cult missive about the package, duh! However, I came across it before you went traipsing down a certain cave path and found the sarcophagus, so I wasn't sure what the Worm Cult was fussing about in that conveniently placed note. I didn't make the connection later because...no idea.

Side note: I really think we weren't meant to be able to access that part of the mine before the story. Or, hey, maybe we were and they left it like that for intrepid explorers like yourself.

I do have odd dreams all the time, but the most recent odd one I had I was in game and you had whispered me about a role-playing convention. You told me, "role-players never say 'oh'." I whispered back, "noted." And not only were you somehow able to whisper me across servers, but people I used to play other MMOs with were also whispering me in ESO: people from WoW and LotRO and maybe even Rift. And because it was a dream, all the text on the screen had that weird quality where it's barely readable and always shifting and then just disappears at one point. When I woke up, my main takeaway was the question: is my brain trying to tell me I say "oh" too much?

But back to Wormblood: I haven't really put much further thought towards who he might be, once I figured he had to be Mannimarco. I wonder if there will be clues in the main quest about it, other than the (possibly false) information we have about him being some relation. If it is some relation, there should be some hints somewhere about Mannimarco's family, about whom I know nothing. "Surprise nephew!" doesn't really do it for me. Especially since Wormblood is someone Mannimarco prepared for this possibility--secret heir and whatnot.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Side note: I really think we weren't meant to be able to access that part of the mine before the story. Or, hey, maybe we were and they left it like that for intrepid explorers like yourself.

It ruins it a bit, right? I honestly somehow dislike that I will have to pretend this never happend through the whole playthrough now. I almost hope that we're wrong and this is not the story's climax, but something that happens a little earlier - so we already see it somewhere in the middle of the main quest, and then there's still more story after that until Part 1 is over. If not, the surprise was truly ruined.

I have reason to believe that is not the end of the main quest, but I haven't gone all the way through yet, so I can't be positive. I did another stage in the second part of the main quest, and got really irked by some details, so I stopped. (Not plot details necessarily, but writing and 'personality' details).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If it is some relation, there should be some hints somewhere about Mannimarco's family, about whom I know nothing. "Surprise nephew!" doesn't really do it for me.

While I wish they come up with some details, I also hope that the details will make sense according to lore. Nothing like "Within 300 years he fathered 150 children and everyone in the Worm Cult, without exception, is actually related because no one really replies to the recruitment ads anyway." This is not House Dagoth. And even if we know that Divayth has successfully cloned himself later, I really hope it's no clone story either.

Mannimarco: father of all.

I also hope for lore appropriate details. I don't need an expansive genealogical breakdown of Mannimarco's family, or a great big graphic of his family tree, but something to explain how he has any family at all that we somehow never heard anything about before.

Does House Dagoth recruit? I mean, considering it's House Dagoth, I imagine it would be very surreptitious. (That's the sixth house, right? The one that no one ever wants to talk about?)

Syldras wrote: »

I came across another cake topper incursion today, by the way, and again, there were a few enemy waves, but no civilians or other friendly npcs. Maybe there are different types of these?

I've come across two more since that first one. One was in Stormhaven, the mobs were already spawned, and the fighters guild and civilian npcs were dead. I assumed this was because someone rode/ran by the spawn point, triggered the incursion, and just kept riding (like they often do with mini-dolmens). In this one, none of the daedra told me how they'd like to wear my skin or that my bones would be useful--it was all pretty silent. But it seemed to have fewer waves and did not have a named boss at the end (unless I just missed it, which isn't impossible).

The next one I came across was on Solstice, with the npcs still alive because the event didn't trigger until I walked up to them. These daedra did some of that trash talk and there was a named boss at the end. So maybe the ones on mainland Tamriel aren't as involved? I'd have to see more of them to know.

Syldras wrote: »

Not sure whether I'll continue questing tonight (and not sure yet how much I'll write here either); it's still early but I think I caught a cold or so. I'm feeling a bit strange.

Well, take care of yourself and I hope you feel better soon!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Mannimarco: father of all.

That's completely unrealistic. Where would he even find a woman who looks like Vanny?

Yeah, the lookalike aspect is the one thing that makes it unrealistic. Totally agree.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Does House Dagoth recruit? I mean, considering it's House Dagoth, I imagine it would be very surreptitious. (That's the sixth house, right? The one that no one ever wants to talk about?)

The what?

In ESO, they don't. As in "recruiting outsiders". They do seek out (or even kidnap in a way, through magical manipulation) people of their old bloodline because they want to rebuild their House. The quest in the Forgotten Wastes on Vvardenfell is about that.

In TES3, they manipulated people through their dreams and enchanted artifacts, though it is possible that they also only reached out for those who once belonged to their clan, generations ago. I always assumed that somehow. I mean, of course we also got strange dreams all the time, but our dear former friend Voryn was calling for us in person.

I had thought that's what was going on in The Forgotten Wastes, but I was uncertain enough to need clarification. Didn't you say one of your characters has bloodline of the sixth house? So ostensibly that character might be sought out or kidnapped. That's an interesting character note, particularly when thinking about how they navigate Dunmer society once they know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've come across two more since that first one. One was in Stormhaven, the mobs were already spawned, and the fighters guild and civilian npcs were dead. I assumed this was because someone rode/ran by the spawn point, triggered the incursion, and just kept riding (like they often do with mini-dolmens). In this one, none of the daedra told me how they'd like to wear my skin or that my bones would be useful--it was all pretty silent. But it seemed to have fewer waves and did not have a named boss at the end (unless I just missed it, which isn't impossible).
The next one I came across was on Solstice, with the npcs still alive because the event didn't trigger until I walked up to them. These daedra did some of that trash talk and there was a named boss at the end. So maybe the ones on mainland Tamriel aren't as involved? I'd have to see more of them to know.

Interesting. Both that I found were on the mainland, had no funny threats, no extra npcs and no named boss.

It does seem like the mainland ones are less involved, then. That's an interesting distinction--like the reapers on Solstice would be more guarded, maybe because of proximity to the Worm Cult's current HQ?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, take care of yourself and I hope you feel better soon!

Thanks! I've always been wondering: If your normal body temperature is very low, and then it becomes just low, is that comparable to fever? Because I think it must be a sign of some immune activity (also, if I ever reached what's normally considered as fever, my blood would probably already be boiling).

Fever can be a sign the body is fighting off illness of some sort (kill it with fire). A rise in temperature certainly could indicate that, even if it doesn't reach standard 'fever' levels. Stress can also play havoc with systems. But, I'm not a medical professional and I am not attempting to diagnose, and I hope it's nothing serious and you are feeling better soon. (I know I already said that, but I do still mean it!)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, the lookalike aspect is the one thing that makes it unrealistic. Totally agree.

I tried to disturb his rest once more today, by the way. This time evil Worm Cultists were present and just kicked me out Not letting me pose for selfies with Mannimarco is truly evil! They're necromancers and Worm Cultists, they should be more understanding of my plans! They're doing funny things with corpses all the time, after all.

But I got interesting info, at least. Obviously, necromancers can fully restore a corpse no matter how rotten it is. Well, Mannimarco will be happy then, I guess. That, or someone will get fired.

There was no statement about how long he had been dead, though.

The whole situation makes me wonder why I didn't just steal his corpse in Sancre Tor?! Well, I was young and naive back then

But it seems like our theory is right and indeed what we saw shackled in Coldharbour was just his soul. And no matter whether we freed him or not, he's still stuck there and can't leave. Yet.

Getting yeeted into the water was something, that's for sure. But here's what I don't understand: the water of the river flows out of the caves, as we saw, and there was even a little waterfall. So...how'd they get that barge in there? From the other side of the wall? If that was so, why were all the notes about transporting it on the western side? Also, if that is where they resurrect him, what's so special about those caves that they needed to bring his sarcophagus there? If they had it on the eastern side, safely behind the wall, why would they bring it to a place where just anyone could get their hands on it?

The saving grace of having to ask Walks "duh, why do they want Mannimarco's corpse?" was hearing her explain about corpse freshness and the ability to make it so. And the idea that he would have commissioned the box because he could see all ends, or something, and figured he just might need it.

I also wonder why we all just walked away and left his corpse for his followers (most of whom I was sure I had killed by that point) grab it up. But I guess the prophet or Abnur or someone had made a portal and there was very much a "hurry along now!" sentiment.

So, since we both freed him from his shackles, do you think that mitigates in any way how angry he is with us for defeating him? I think at the time he said he wasn't going to be grateful to us, but surely an unshackled soul will be easier to retrieve than a shackled one. So, in a way, we did him a favor.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I had thought that's what was going on in The Forgotten Wastes, but I was uncertain enough to need clarification. Didn't you say one of your characters has bloodline of the sixth house? So ostensibly that character might be sought out or kidnapped. That's an interesting character note, particularly when thinking about how they navigate Dunmer society once they know.

Indeed. That's why I chose that background. Of course it will all just be headcanon, but I found it an interesting experiment to see the game through that lens and act accordingly.

So much does have to be headcanon if you are really into developing your characters. Sometimes I write down stories about my characters, but mostly it's all just living rent-free in my brain.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It does seem like the mainland ones are less involved, then. That's an interesting distinction--like the reapers on Solstice would be more guarded, maybe because of proximity to the Worm Cult's current HQ?

It seems to be arbitrary. I found another one on the mainland today and that one had some friendly npcs and a named boss (a Dunmer it was, but I can't remember the exact name).

Makes me wonder whether those will count toward the Wall event, by the way.

I wonder. Be odd if they didn't, but they are already associated with their own achievement, so maybe that's their major purpose.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Fever can be a sign the body is fighting off illness of some sort (kill it with fire). A rise in temperature certainly could indicate that, even if it doesn't reach standard 'fever' levels. Stress can also play havoc with systems. But, I'm not a medical professional and I am not attempting to diagnose, and I hope it's nothing serious and you are feeling better soon. (I know I already said that, but I do still mean it!)

Thanks! I'm sure it's nothing serious. Probably just a cold plus migraine from the weather.

Ah, yes, and I also picked up a bit of amusing Vanny lore: Obviously, according to Gabrielle, he has the habit of letting himself getting kidnapped to get close to his enemies. See, it's all well-planned! The Great Mage has everything under control. (Also, it strangely sounds like he still has the "I can fix him!" mindset).

Ugh, migraines. I get heat headaches if I'm not careful. I'm very pale and susceptible to heat and the sun has always been my enemy. One of the advantages of living in the Pacific Northwest is the general scarcity of sun.

Yes, I loved that bit of Vanny lore! I mentioned it in the other thread, but I laughed out loud at the notion of Vanny going around letting himself get caught. The Great Mage indeed! Well, I hope at some point we get to talk to him in person after Mannimarco's resurrection so we can ask him if he fixed him yet!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Getting yeeted into the water was something, that's for sure. But here's what I don't understand: the water of the river flows out of the caves, as we saw, and there was even a little waterfall. So...how'd they get that barge in there? From the other side of the wall?

A wizard did it, with a portal.

Lol, right, right. How could I have overlooked that?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If that was so, why were all the notes about transporting it on the western side? Also, if that is where they resurrect him, what's so special about those caves that they needed to bring his sarcophagus there? If they had it on the eastern side, safely behind the wall, why would they bring it to a place where just anyone could get their hands on it?

We know those cultists aren't very bright... But I am grateful that I could stare at the sarcophagus undisturbed (and take pictures) at least once (actually I'm curious now what might happen if I enter another time, maybe I should try that later). Even though I still think the sculptor wasn't doing the best work. For the next time, Mannimarco should hire a different one.

Makes me wonder now whether he still has the same sarcophagus in Daggerfall. At that point, he seems to sleep in that thing.

I played Daggerfall so, so long ago I really don't remember any details of it. So Mannimarco's in it, huh? Well, maybe after a few centuries, his body wore a groove in the stone that makes it super comfortable for sleeping.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The saving grace of having to ask Walks "duh, why do they want Mannimarco's corpse?" was hearing her explain about corpse freshness and the ability to make it so.

It's actually an interesting point considering Mannimarco later steals Vanny's corpse. Surely he keeps him in a sightly condition, at least. I'm not sure whether it really makes the situation better, but at least Vanny doesn't have to spend eternity as a half-rotten zombie.

So do you think he just animates Vanny's corpse in the puppetry style, or do you think he resurrects him? Because I'm thinking a corpse merely animated doesn't have the thoughts and emotions of the original owner, so the state of zombification wouldn't matter to it. But a resurrected Vanny might get some measure of relief from having a nicely preserved body. That might be his only relief.

I also read on UESP a bit of unofficial lore that in one of his dens or hideouts or whatever, Mannimarco has a giant statue of Vanus Galerion made out of corpses.

Galerion's visage was later captured in a morbid one hundred foot tall statue inside Scourg Barrow, constructed of decayed bodies and bones.

I mean, aside from "gross" my reaction was "that's obsessive."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also wonder why we all just walked away and left his corpse for his followers (most of whom I was sure I had killed by that point) grab it up. But I guess the prophet or Abnur or someone had made a portal and there was very much a "hurry along now!" sentiment.

Still we could have taken the corpse with us, especially through a portal.

I guess Lyris could have carried it. No way was I touching that thing.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, I loved that bit of Vanny lore! I mentioned it in the other thread, but I laughed out loud at the notion of Vanny going around letting himself get caught. The Great Mage indeed! Well, I hope at some point we get to talk to him in person after Mannimarco's resurrection so we can ask him if he fixed him yet!

Looks like we were right: Every time Vanny gets kidnapped, we learn something new about him to mock him with. Although I did not expect something as funny as that.

Since he seems to enjoy it, maybe there should be a new daily quest to kidnap him, just because it makes him happy? Anyway, I'd glad he also has a hobby he pursues. I was afraid he might lead a completely boring life, doing nothing at all (except for whining about his ex for 350 years - they indeed have a lot in common).

Lol! A daily quest where I capture Vanny and he shouts, "The Great Mage is not so easily captured!" Yes, please!

So, when he shouted that as he was being sucked into the portal, was that all for show, so we wouldn't know he was getting captured "on purpose"?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I played Daggerfall so, so long ago I really don't remember any details of it. So Mannimarco's in it, huh? Well, maybe after a few centuries, his body wore a groove in the stone that makes it super comfortable for sleeping.

Well, I never saw him sleeping in it, to be honest (Only standing in front of it or next or it or what was it? I can only remember the silly cultist dancers right now, and that the coffin was white of all things, which I found funny, especially considering how everything else looked like, and what a white coffin traditionally means), but at the place he lived in, there was nothing else, and he surely had to sleep somewhere.

What does a white coffin traditionally mean? And I'm sure he did sleep in it. Kinda thing he would do.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So do you think he just animates Vanny's corpse in the puppetry style, or do you think he resurrects him? Because I'm thinking a corpse merely animated doesn't have the thoughts and emotions of the original owner, so the state of zombification wouldn't matter to it. But a resurrected Vanny might get some measure of relief from having a nicely preserved body. That might be his only relief.

It's a good question. In Oblivion, Mannimarco makes a rather questionable statement about Vanny's physical state, but it might have been one of his usual exaggerations.

Well, if Mannimarco has the power to keep him corpse fresh and he doesn't do it, that's just mean.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess Lyris could have carried it. No way was I touching that thing.

Just put it in a sack, just like anyone else.

Listen, I know carrying body sacks "just in case" is standard procedure for you, but some of us just don't have those to hand at any given moment.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol! A daily quest where I capture Vanny and he shouts, "The Great Mage is not so easily captured!" Yes, please!

I fully support that. Everything that makes poor Vanny happy, really. I can see how he would like it: Finally feeling important and the center of attention. And when he's caught and locked up in a dark cell somewhere, he can finally relax, because he can't do much anyway. What a wonderful pastime for the Great Mage.

Well, we do want to make him happy in his last years, after all. Or, depending on the way things go in Solstice, his last days.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So, when he shouted that as he was being sucked into the portal, was that all for show, so we wouldn't know he was getting captured "on purpose"?

Well, actually his last words (except for "Protect the staff!") were: "The Great Mage does not fall easily!" I think he sounded rather cheerful. Now we know why.

Lol, I thought he sounded like he was putting on a bit of bravado because he was, actually, falling easily. But the exact wording is important, as we write the account of what may well be his last days as a sentient being.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What does a white coffin traditionally mean?

It's a symbol of purity and innocence and you would only bury people inside them who never married.

Well that's interesting; I had never heard that before.

As far as Mannimarco in a white coffin goes, did he ever marry? I know he can't be considered pure and innocent regardless of his marital state, but it occurred to me that in game a lot of the powerful figures we come across are single. I don't think anyone in our current "crew" has a spouse. Not that I think they need spouses; I just find it interesting as a bit of data.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And I'm sure he did sleep in it. Kinda thing he would do.

If I had to choose between a sarcophagus and a cold, wet floor, I'd also sleep in the sarcophagus, like every other sane person.

Sure, but the real question is: why were those his only two options? Does he run out of money to buy furniture in the future?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, we do want to make him happy in his last years, after all. Or, depending on the way things go in Solstice, his last days.

I honestly have been wondering now whether that's even possible, since he seems to be the character who leads through that new "hero's return" questline that pops up for players who haven't logged in for a long time.

I honestly doubt they would put anything that significant in the game, even though events might seem to be leading towards that. Besides, you know how well they do with killing off significant characters. Funny to think of the Great Mage basically serving as a tour guide, though.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, I thought he sounded like he was putting on a bit of bravado because he was, actually, falling easily. But the exact wording is important, as we write the account of what may well be his last days as a sentient being.

I might still be able to save him by stealing Mannimarco's corpse. The Worm Cult is indeed rather dense... since his remains are unprotected again



I hope it remains this way, it's a nice location to just sit around. Also, I might think about having tea parties there.

Perfect place for a nice cuppa! Listen, you're a wizard, right? Conjure a portal and take that sarcophagus to your tower. I know no one could get at it then!

By the way, there's a new thread where people are expressing dissatisfaction with the game's trend towards "family-friendly" writing (or, as you put it, safe). So not everyone wants things to be presented as blandly as they have been. Maybe ZOS will take note.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As far as Mannimarco in a white coffin goes, did he ever marry? I know he can't be considered pure and innocent regardless of his marital state, but it occurred to me that in game a lot of the powerful figures we come across are single. I don't think anyone in our current "crew" has a spouse. Not that I think they need spouses; I just find it interesting as a bit of data.

Whom would he ever marry? Also, he's fully concentrated on his important work, I mean, "megalomaniacal goal" to become a god. Also, he's still obsessed with Vanny centuries later, I'd honestly find it lore-breaking if he would have ever thought about anyone else.

As for other important figures, Shalidor had a wife - but she left because he didn't have enough time for her. That might be the issue with the others as well.

Also I know of course that the white color of the box/thing/whatever in Daggerfall was probably supposed to hint at some sarcophagus made from raw stone or something like that, but it didn't look big and thinking of it as a normal coffin was funnier somehow.

I'd be willing to bet that, over the centuries, there was someone out there who would have wanted to marry Mannimarco, for any number of reasons. But you're right in that he likely had no interest in the wedded state (unless perhaps it was with one particular Great Mage).

I remember when I learned Shalidor's wife left him and my thought was basically: Yeah, I would have, too. But among the alliance leaders (all of them, not just the main three) I think only Emeric is married. Anyway, not an important detail.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sure, but the real question is: why were those his only two options? Does he run out of money to buy furniture in the future?

Have you ever seen a lich go to a furniture store? Money could also have become a problem, indeed, as I don't know many regular jobs a lich could pursue. Maybe at the tunnel of horror of a traveling carnival.

What if he went on one of his better skin days? You know, when he was looking mostly intact? But with Vanny working as tour guide and Mannimarco picking up that traveling carnival gig, surely they can scrape together enough funds for a bed. Or, failing that, a futon.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I honestly doubt they would put anything that significant in the game, even though events might seem to be leading towards that. Besides, you know how well they do with killing off significant characters.

I mean, a few did die, and we also didn't see Abnur Tharn for a very long time now (which is really a pity as I liked him much more than the rest).

I have wondered if Tharn died at the end of Dragonhold or not. I liked him best out of the five companions, and his return in Elsweyr was well done. I wouldn't mind seeing him again if it made sense. Who else has died and not come back? I'm honestly not remembering.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Funny to think of the Great Mage basically serving as a tour guide, though.

It's almost a pity that I'll probably never see it. There should be a way to accept the quest regardless of one's last log in date.

The other day, the hero's return screen popped up for me on my main character. I don't know how or why, but I couldn't interact with it at all. I ended up re-logging, I believe. Or maybe all I could do was dismiss it. The point being: that is likely the closest I will ever get to experiencing the hero's return.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Perfect place for a nice cuppa! Listen, you're a wizard, right? Conjure a portal and take that sarcophagus to your tower. I know no one could get at it then!

I do think about that. Sometimes I do even wonder how the story would have turned out if indeed the corpse would have been gone (with or without the sarcophagus) - what would Wormblood do then? Well, bad luck, I guess. But of course that's a silly thought to ponder about, as we know that of course, Mannimarco will return, and as a free being, not resurrected in the basement cell of an evil Telvanni and his Bosmer assistant. Is that better or worse than being stuck in Coldharbour for eternity?

I'm imaging Wormblood not checking the sarcophagus and trying the resurrection spell with just an empty box. More than that I won't say, since I completed the main quest this morning.

I guess the comparison between a basement cell and Coldharbour depends on what goes on in that cell. And don't let the Bosmer snack on Mannimarco corpse--that can't be good for him.