Automatic ban for cheating/exploiting

Unfadingsilence · May 24

silky_soft wrote: »

So we should uninstall all add-ons and library because at any time now we could get 10yr accounts banned if some cheater makes a bot that utilised a function from it?

Yes

DreamyLu · May 24

In the end, for me, this thread is a good reminder that often, the outcome of a ban wave is that a part of the banned players have done something against game policy. In that case, it was the use of an addon that automates gameplay. So yes, there were some false bans, but they are by now getting corrected.

It shows once more that ban wave rarely happens for nothing.

In the MMORPG gaming world, routines used to automate gameplay are forbidden (I can't recall a MMO authorizing this). It's a standard of the "against-policy-main-features" (like selling in game currency for real money for example), known by all players.
At the top of it, in this specific case, there was even a warning by the addon description that its use is at own risk because it's against game policy... So why take such an obvious risk? It's beyond my understanding.

Etherea1 · May 24

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Why would anybody install an add-on or library that they did not need for some other function. Who just installs random add-ons that they're not using? If you have this installed then why did you install it? Can you answer that?

I remember first starting with addons I downloaded addon pack from discord some time in 2024, probably this library was there. Guilty as charged. Only fishing history can prove whether I used this addon or not. Did I fish in sizeable amount considered botting and was selling roe in large amount? Only logs can prove that.

sleepy_worm · May 24

Automated bans and automated customer service replies. It's too bad all that crown store money doesn't go towards employing staff.

SpiritKitten · May 24

Etherea1 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Why would anybody install an add-on or library that they did not need for some other function. Who just installs random add-ons that they're not using? If you have this installed then why did you install it? Can you answer that?

I remember first starting with addons I downloaded addon pack from discord some time in 2024, probably this library was there. Guilty as charged. Only fishing history can prove whether I used this addon or not. Did I fish in sizeable amount considered botting and was selling roe in large amount? Only logs can prove that.

Why did you do this and not use Minion?

Dock01 · May 24

i have a feeling some real cheaters/botters here are blending in with real innocent players who got falsely banned LOL

AD42 · May 24

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Etherea1 wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Why would anybody install an add-on or library that they did not need for some other function. Who just installs random add-ons that they're not using? If you have this installed then why did you install it? Can you answer that?

I remember first starting with addons I downloaded addon pack from discord some time in 2024, probably this library was there. Guilty as charged. Only fishing history can prove whether I used this addon or not. Did I fish in sizeable amount considered botting and was selling roe in large amount? Only logs can prove that.

Why did you do this and not use Minion?

Sometimes people just see videos on YouTube with ready-made addons and then download them all at once. Of course, this is irresponsible. But everyone wants comfort, but they don't want to figure out what works and how.
Of course, you need to ban bots.

Etherea1 · May 24

Dock01 wrote: »

i have a feeling some real cheaters/botters here are blending in with real innocent players who got falsely banned LOL

Let examining game activity logs by tech support be judge of that.

Orbital78 · May 24

Etherea1 wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

i have a feeling some real cheaters/botters here are blending in with real innocent players who got falsely banned LOL

Let examining game activity logs by tech support be judge of that.

Good luck with that.

robwolf666 · May 24

I was going to say "definitely for people using farming bots on the servers - and it should be permanent"... but, then I realised you were talking about something else.
So maintenance is being used as an opportunity to root out suspicious activity as well? Didn't know that, seems like a good idea though, if it's accurately identifying people anyway.

Elsonso · May 24

DreamyLu wrote: »

In the end, for me, this thread is a good reminder that often, the outcome of a ban wave is that a part of the banned players have done something against game policy. In that case, it was the use of an addon that automates gameplay. So yes, there were some false bans, but they are by now getting corrected.

It shows once more that ban wave rarely happens for nothing.

I think two things. First, false suspensions and bans should never happen. Second, ban waves rarely happen. Period.

Dock01 wrote: »

i have a feeling some real cheaters/botters here are blending in with real innocent players who got falsely banned LOL

This is part of the reason why I think innocent players who get caught up in the ban excitement should remain quiet about it in public. I know there is an instinct to talk about it. Keep it private with the game studio until all appeals are rejected. Then be noisy about it. Nothing to lose at that point.

silky_soft wrote: »

So we should uninstall all add-ons and library because at any time now we could get 10yr accounts banned if some cheater makes a bot that utilised a function from it?

No. I think that this will not be necessary. I doubt that ZOS is going to permanently ban anyone for running an addon. AFAIK, they never banned anyone for creating or using Miat's addon in PVP, which was as close as I have heard to anyone cheating by using an addon. They just changed the API to make the addon work differently.

(edit... or for using the automated fish fillet addon that could do an entire stack of fish with a single action. Instead, they added it to the game)

(edit... or the crafting addon that automatically does crafting writs for the player.)

frogthroat · May 26

Elsonso wrote: »

AFAIK, they never banned anyone for creating or using Miat's addon in PVP, which was as close as I have heard to anyone cheating by using an addon.

Dr Gankstein recently made a video... actually two, about some bomber who had two suspicious things. One turned out to be a video error on Dr Gankstein's end so nothing fishy there. And he clarified it in his second video.

But the other one can be understood as an exploit. It is an addon that is designed for saving your telvar if you carry a lot of them and need to exit IC quickly. You can assign a hotkey to port you quickly from Cyro to IC or vice versa.

The guy Dr Gankstein referred to was in Cyro, did a bomb at a keep door and then vanished. Apparently he claimed he used vamp stage 4 but in actuality he used the addon to quickly port to IC. So he bombed and before anyone can kill him he ported away.

That does sound like the addon is using the available game mechanics so it is not a cheat, but it is using the mechanics in an unintended way to gain an unfair advantage and does seem like an exploit.

You can find more info about it on Dr Gankstein's youtube channel. (Not a paid ad and to clarify: Dr is not the exploiter, he's the one who exposed this exploit.)

Etherea1 · May 26

A lot of people using addons for queue to Cyro from IC to escape fight or save telvars. Eso people glowing (set glows bright blue if carrier have 10k telvar) in Imperial Physique

Etherea1 · May 26

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Etherea1 wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

This is an addon you can get on minion.
It's a companion for the said bot.

I had it in my Addons folder somehow. This might seems the legit reason for ban.
I wish customer support had ability to check game logs like how many times I fished prior to ban and how many fish I caught (I believe I haven't fished for half a year at least).

@ZOS_Kevin could you please pass this info to customer support?
[250523-002612]

We checked in on your ticket just now. It is in the correct place awaiting the appeals process. Since it was placed today, please allow for some time as we work through tickets in order. But your ticket is accounted for and will go through the appeals process.

Good day!
Any info on my issue?
@ZOS_Kevin

SilverBride · May 26

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Why would anybody install an add-on or library that they did not need for some other function. Who just installs random add-ons that they're not using?

I have a friend who does that. He installed every add-on he found that "looked cool" and didn't even know how to use most of them. And he never does any group content so didn't need most of what he installed.

Luckily his very old computer failed and he had to replace it. I convinced him to only install what he really needed on the new computer and he said he would, but then he installed every library file he saw. I asked why and he just thought it would be a good idea. I told him to see what his add-ons needed and delete the rest. He said he would but I don't know that he did.

Rohamad_Ali · May 26

I stopped using all add-ons years ago. Seemed most problems were associated with them.

Baertram · May 26

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Etherea1 wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

This is an addon you can get on minion.
It's a companion for the said bot.

I had it in my Addons folder somehow. This might seems the legit reason for ban.
I wish customer support had ability to check game logs like how many times I fished prior to ban and how many fish I caught (I believe I haven't fished for half a year at least).

@ZOS_Kevin could you please pass this info to customer support?
[250523-002612]

We checked in on your ticket just now. It is in the correct place awaiting the appeals process. Since it was placed today, please allow for some time as we work through tickets in order. But your ticket is accounted for and will go through the appeals process.

SpiritKitten wrote:

Why would anybody install an add-on or library that they did not need for some other function. Who just installs random add-ons that they're not using?

@ZOS_Kevin
@SpiritKitten - Think about it my way, I'm supporting addons since 2014 and I'm no usual user so to say:

-Just my hints and thoughts-
You cannot ban ppl because they got such addon installed and active.
Even I had that active to review it's code and it NEVER EVER used that Fishing Bot at all!
I'm working on esoui.com to scan uploaded addons' code and sometimes I forget to remove the installed addons again afterwards. AND it is by default enabled ingame then due to ZO's doing that autoatically for each new installed addon...
Even that addon linked above is nothing which is against the TOS alone, it uses ZOs provided API afaik?

I'm pretty sure there are usual users who install many addons, and try them out, but do not uninstall them all again directly. So these would be detected as false positives too.

So ZOs please do not ban ppl (if that ever happened) because of addon usage that use your provided API functions etc.
You can and must only ban ppl if they actively use a bot in combination, imho, or you detect false positives like me who reverse egineer addons each day to find performance issues or improve their and other addons (since 2014) ;-)

Overall I find the bans legit if the users really used any helping external tools, no matter if for fishing, running, fighting, or even keyboard's macros etc (unless they are depending on that due to accessibility needs and can proove it!).
Just do not ban them based on "addon usage" if you ZOs provide the API for the addons? That's wrong. Either lock that API down then, or add tools to detect the bots properly and ban if they find the bots.

Rohamad_Ali wrote:

I stopped using all add-ons years ago. Seemed most problems were associated with them.

Somewhat off-topic don't you think?
Beside that this is simply not true and sounds like a very helpless attempt to blame addons for everything... Guess it was more or less your the fault of someone else rather... not the addons.
Without knowing the details I find it sad you feel that way, and I'm sorry to read such comments. They destroy the addons for a wide playerbase loving and using them, somewhat. Only 1 user needs to find your or similar posts via a search machine and will be misslead into the wrong direction, not even trying them out, and forcing game developers in the end to not allow addons at all.
-> Rather have the choice I say then being forced to no addons and suffer from bad design and code?

If you dislike them, okay. But do not spread such wrong information please, or at least provide details and facts!
And in this thread your sentence shouldn't be posted at all, as it siply adds no value nor does it help nor provide any insights to the topic.
Thank you

sarahthes · May 26

Elsonso wrote: »

DreamyLu wrote: »

In the end, for me, this thread is a good reminder that often, the outcome of a ban wave is that a part of the banned players have done something against game policy. In that case, it was the use of an addon that automates gameplay. So yes, there were some false bans, but they are by now getting corrected.

It shows once more that ban wave rarely happens for nothing.

I think two things. First, false suspensions and bans should never happen. Second, ban waves rarely happen. Period.

I do not think this is possible without AI. I think AI would lower the false positive rate significantly.

DeadlySerious · May 26

The fear of being auto banned in ESO has gotten to be a serious concern. I'm terrified that the daily writ add on will get put on a list of banned activities and next thing you know I'll be banned too, along with essentially everyone who uses the add on to do writs. I just know too many people who got erroneous bans for private chat language, guild leads for spamming guild messages etc. that never should have gotten bans in the first place.

Given how minimal communication is between ZOS and the customer base I think the fear that there might be some unannounced change to what is and isn't allowed could really come back to bite a huge portion of the population at some point.

Elsonso · May 27

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

DreamyLu wrote: »

In the end, for me, this thread is a good reminder that often, the outcome of a ban wave is that a part of the banned players have done something against game policy. In that case, it was the use of an addon that automates gameplay. So yes, there were some false bans, but they are by now getting corrected.

It shows once more that ban wave rarely happens for nothing.

I think two things. First, false suspensions and bans should never happen. Second, ban waves rarely happen. Period.

I do not think this is possible without AI. I think AI would lower the false positive rate significantly.

After thinking on this for a while... it could amplify it. At our current state of consumable technology, AI is just a tool. The AI will just flag what it has been trained to flag.

I think that the reason that bans and suspensions happen, and get reversed, is that the criteria that is used to detect the infraction is larger than it should be. AI isn't going to narrow that down. If anything, my concern is that it would be able to find more players that fit into the criteria and create more false suspensions and bans.

As implemented by the popular AI companies, AI is neither artificial nor intelligent. The term is opposite of what it actually is.

Etherea1 · May 27

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Etherea1 wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

This is an addon you can get on minion.
It's a companion for the said bot.

I had it in my Addons folder somehow. This might seems the legit reason for ban.
I wish customer support had ability to check game logs like how many times I fished prior to ban and how many fish I caught (I believe I haven't fished for half a year at least).

@ZOS_Kevin could you please pass this info to customer support?
[250523-002612]

We checked in on your ticket just now. It is in the correct place awaiting the appeals process. Since it was placed today, please allow for some time as we work through tickets in order. But your ticket is accounted for and will go through the appeals process.

@ZOS_Kevin . Good day! Any update on this?

sarahthes · May 27

Elsonso wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

DreamyLu wrote: »

In the end, for me, this thread is a good reminder that often, the outcome of a ban wave is that a part of the banned players have done something against game policy. In that case, it was the use of an addon that automates gameplay. So yes, there were some false bans, but they are by now getting corrected.

It shows once more that ban wave rarely happens for nothing.

I think two things. First, false suspensions and bans should never happen. Second, ban waves rarely happen. Period.

I do not think this is possible without AI. I think AI would lower the false positive rate significantly.

After thinking on this for a while... it could amplify it. At our current state of consumable technology, AI is just a tool. The AI will just flag what it has been trained to flag.

I think that the reason that bans and suspensions happen, and get reversed, is that the criteria that is used to detect the infraction is larger than it should be. AI isn't going to narrow that down. If anything, my concern is that it would be able to find more players that fit into the criteria and create more false suspensions and bans.

As implemented by the popular AI companies, AI is neither artificial nor intelligent. The term is opposite of what it actually is.

I disagree. The one thing AI is really good at is pattern recognition and it's the area where it should be getting used more. AI can look at an account that is flagged by a query or moderation tool, look thru more account history, and make a decision. Moreover, by feeding the learning algorithm with a combination of legit and botter account behaviour, it will spot the differences much faster than a human can. A query or moderation tool isn't going to do that.

tincanman · May 27

Most disconcerting that 'guilty until proven innocent' seems the default approach.

Cooperharley · May 27

Hearing that these issues the community has been having is NOT AI is almost worse lol.

There's human beings behind all this nonsense? How ridiculous

Etherea1 · May 27

I am unable to deliver my message to support team, and not recieved info since friday.
I understand everyone is busy etc. But I am anxious. TESO was big part of my life and now it is torn apart.

Old Russian joke, i tried to translate it ^_^

A man is being tried for moonshining.
He says, "I didn't make moonshine!!!!"
The judge objects, "How can you say 'I didn't make it' when a moonshine still was found during a search!"
The man yells, "So what? I didn't make moonshine."
"No, you did, since you have a still!"
The man waves his hand and says, "Well, then you can try me for ***."
Everyone is shocked. "Did you *** someone?" "No, but I have a thing."

Sluggy · May 27

Rkindaleft wrote: »

My sincerest apologies Kevin if this comes off as a little rude or nitpicky but if these bans aren't due to AI (and there are seemingly quite a few bans, given how much I've seen on the forums, Reddit and in Discords) then what exactly are these bans a result of? As Destai has said there are people that have been banned without reporting.

Automated ban waves have been around a lot longer than any applicable form of what people refer to as "AI" these days. Decades longer. It's just software.

Dock01 · May 28

how old was the banned account ?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 28

Baertram wrote: »

Even I had that active to review it's code and it NEVER EVER used that Fishing Bot at all!

And did you get banned for having it installed @Baertram? - if you didn't then it wasn't a ban due to having the addon installed but instead for using the bot / suspicious behaviour.

cyclonus11 · May 28

frogthroat wrote: »

But the other one can be understood as an exploit. It is an addon that is designed for saving your telvar if you carry a lot of them and need to exit IC quickly. You can assign a hotkey to port you quickly from Cyro to IC or vice versa.

The guy Dr Gankstein referred to was in Cyro, did a bomb at a keep door and then vanished. Apparently he claimed he used vamp stage 4 but in actuality he used the addon to quickly port to IC. So he bombed and before anyone can kill him he ported away.

I want to chime in here. Someone porting to Cyro/IC in the middle of a fight is not necessarily the result of cheating, but rather the queue system or just a delay in the process.

I had a situation where I queued for Cyro while in IC. There was no queue. I was in stealth waiting for it to pop. I got the prompt and hit the key to port. Then someone immediately found me and attacked. I was defending myself when more enemy players jumped in. I was defending myself against 5-6 players and losing ground when I poofed and the Cyrodiil loading screen appeared.

I did not cheat. I was waiting for the integrated process to kick in and was unwillingly thrown into battle.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · May 28

cyclonus11 wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

But the other one can be understood as an exploit. It is an addon that is designed for saving your telvar if you carry a lot of them and need to exit IC quickly. You can assign a hotkey to port you quickly from Cyro to IC or vice versa.

The guy Dr Gankstein referred to was in Cyro, did a bomb at a keep door and then vanished. Apparently he claimed he used vamp stage 4 but in actuality he used the addon to quickly port to IC. So he bombed and before anyone can kill him he ported away.

I want to chime in here. Someone porting to Cyro/IC in the middle of a fight is not necessarily the result of cheating, but rather the queue system or just a delay in the process.

I had a situation where I queued for Cyro while in IC. There was no queue. I was in stealth waiting for it to pop. I got the prompt and hit the key to port. Then someone immediately found me and attacked. I was defending myself when more enemy players jumped in. I was defending myself against 5-6 players and losing ground when I poofed and the Cyrodiil loading screen appeared.

I did not cheat. I was waiting for the integrated process to kick in and was unwillingly thrown into battle.

Whilst it's not the topic being discussed here queuing into cyro/ic/bg/group finder to avoid dying in PVP is considered an exploit by some. Especially when it avoids you losing tel'vars to other players. There are mechanics in place within IC to 'port to base' and those require you to be out of combat whilst using the port stone. This is why people consider being able to do so whilst in combat an exploit as it's 'unintended' based on the other available mechanics.