Official Discussion Thread for "Meet the Character—Wormblood"

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I'm worried for all Bosmer who wander into the general vicinity of your home. If @ArchangelIsraphel goes missing, I know where to start looking!

No need to worry. I care very well for my Bosmer servants. All of my servants, really. If they know how to behave.

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, as someone who was extremely awkward about romance in my youth, I can confirm that it's possible.
I wasn't saying their romance definitely would have been like that, just that I could see it being like that. And stereotypes being what they are, and so forth. Well, anyway, if we ever do get any flashbacks of their youthful relationship, I'd be glad to see them in whatever form they took, even if they didn't end up showing anything romantic between them (though that would be a shame). I'm much more interested in these two characters than I ever have been before, and it's down to all this speculating we've been doing.

We have this one quote from Mannimarco in his youth: "The only lines are those you draw in your mind." I think he would just do what feels right to him, just grasp the opportunity. If he found interest in Galerion, he would probably just have told him. I'd think he was the one taking the lead while Galerion came across as more insecure in what we saw on Artaeum.

Whether he's romantic? Well, in his own sense, maybe. He doesn't come across as emotional, that's true, but in a way he must be capable of emotions at least, otherwise he would have never cared for Galerion. Maybe it's more like an introversion vs extraversion thing; it's possible to have strong feelings about things, to feel them deeply on the inside, but to not show much reaction to them from the outside. The thing is that onlookers would, of course, not notice anything about that.

I know my view might be skewed; we all try to make sense of things depending on our own experiences, after all. All I can say is that I've been raised with a "don't care for anyone's opinion, do what feels reasonable to you" mindset myself, and while that made me unapologetic in everything I'm doing (I've made a few, really just few, wrong decisions in life just like anyone else, but I'm not bothered, as everything I ever did seemed right based on the knowledge I had at that time), and people usually get the impression that I'm strangely unconcerned about many things, I wouldn't say I'm void of emotions, especially towards people I find interesting.

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I'm worried for all Bosmer who wander into the general vicinity of your home. If @ArchangelIsraphel goes missing, I know where to start looking!

No need to worry. I care very well for my Bosmer servants. All of my servants, really. If they know how to behave.

A lot hangs on that small word. If, indeed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, as someone who was extremely awkward about romance in my youth, I can confirm that it's possible.
I wasn't saying their romance definitely would have been like that, just that I could see it being like that. And stereotypes being what they are, and so forth. Well, anyway, if we ever do get any flashbacks of their youthful relationship, I'd be glad to see them in whatever form they took, even if they didn't end up showing anything romantic between them (though that would be a shame). I'm much more interested in these two characters than I ever have been before, and it's down to all this speculating we've been doing.

We have this one quote from Mannimarco in his youth: "The only lines are those you draw in your mind." I think he would just do what feels right to him, just grasp the opportunity. If he found interest in Galerion, he would probably just have told him. I'd think he was the one taking the lead while Galerion came across as more insecure in what we saw on Artaeum.

Whether he's romantic? Well, in his own sense, maybe. He doesn't come across as emotional, that's true, but in a way he must be capable of emotions at least, otherwise he would have never cared for Galerion. Maybe it's more like an introversion vs extraversion thing; it's possible to have strong feelings about things, to feel them deeply on the inside, but to not show much reaction to them from the outside. The thing is that onlookers would, of course, not notice anything about that.

I know my view might be skewed; we all try to make sense of things depending on our own experiences, after all. All I can say is that I've been raised with a "don't care for anyone's opinion, do what feels reasonable to you" mindset myself, and while that made me unapologetic in everything I'm doing (I've made a few, really just few, wrong decisions in life just like anyone else, but I'm not bothered, as everything I ever did seemed right based on the knowledge I had at that time), and people usually get the impression that I'm strangely unconcerned about many things, I wouldn't say I'm void of emotions, especially towards people I find interesting.

I think you've drawn a pretty good portrait of how Mannimarco would have approached it. Would Galerion have received the attention with the same ease of mind? I honestly don't know, because as we've discussed, it's hard to say how much of Galerion's attitude is genuine and how much is facade. He's very sure of himself magically and mentally, I have no doubt, but emotionally?

I admit I'm envious of your sense of self. I was raised pretty much the opposite from you, with a "consider what people will think" mentality that I have taken years to shake off. I think I'm older than you (born in 1970), and my parents were both from the Midwest U.S., where silence and politeness are bywords (well, my biological mother was from Germany, but she died when I was very young, so I will never know what her influence might have been). So, yeah, given those circumstances and influences, I grew up self-conscious and awkward and shy. Still am, really, but I handle it better now.

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

A lot hangs on that small word. If, indeed.

If they misbehave, they'll stay in the "furnishing vault" (Isn't that a beautiful euphemism? Just like all those Argonian "farmers" and "laborers" at the Dres farms in ESO) and get only water and bread until they decide to behave appropriately again. Or wait: Stale beer and bread. That's more awful than water.

metheglyn wrote: »

I think you've drawn a pretty good portrait of how Mannimarco would have approached it. Would Galerion have received the attention with the same ease of mind? I honestly don't know, because as we've discussed, it's hard to say how much of Galerion's attitude is genuine and how much is facade. He's very sure of himself magically and mentally, I have no doubt, but emotionally?

If I think of the Artaeum flashbacks, Galerion seemed genuinely scared to me. Of course it was a dangerous situation, so we can't say if he was always like that. But I generally had the impression of him being more insecure. Also, opposites often attract. Maybe Mannimarco was unconsciously drawn to someone he considered gifted and with high potential, but insecure, so he could (from his point of view) elevate him.

I don't think Galerion would have been scared by the attention. Maybe clueless and insecure, but I don't think Mannimarco already seemed dangerous in the beginning. Who knows, maybe Galerion enjoyed getting attention beyond the scholarly, and real affection, especially considering his childhood background.

Maybe that's also the reason he noticed rather late what Mannimarco was up to - his view might have been too rose-tinted or he might have been too naive, in a way. Intelligence and academic success doesn't necessarily mean someone can't be naive. And I don't consider naivité something negative in all cases; sometimes people are just too pure-hearted to imagine what others might be capable of. We also had something like that in that one lorebook @ArchangelIsraphel linked earlier, although we of course don't know how much of that is artistic stylization. Galerion the way we meet him as an adult in ESO doesn't really seem "light and warm"

But who knows, maybe he was like that when he was young.

metheglyn wrote: »

I admit I'm envious of your sense of self. I was raised pretty much the opposite from you, with a "consider what people will think" mentality that I have taken years to shake off. I think I'm older than you (born in 1970), and my parents were both from the Midwest U.S., where silence and politeness are bywords (well, my biological mother was from Germany, but she died when I was very young, so I will never know what her influence might have been). So, yeah, given those circumstances and influences, I grew up self-conscious and awkward and shy. Still am, really, but I handle it better now.

I was born in late 1986 and grew up motherless from age 6 on. Sometimes people think that would be a reason for pity, but I don't think so, because my father raised me well, so in the end, it didn't matter.

To be honest, I met my mother again later (yes, she's still alive), and everything I ever got were demands and complaints. I don't blame her, because I think that's just the way she is and she can't act differently. But still, I'm sure my childhood and youth were freer and happier without than they had been with her. I know it sounds horrible, but it's the truth. All her demands would have suffocated me.

Not that my father's individualistic approach wouldn't have gotten me into trouble too

I had been, several times, at school. "Disobedience". I wasn't actually a bad, immoral person, I have never rebelled just for the sake of it like many other teens did, never done drugs, never cut classes, never vandalized anything, really, nothing. My only "flaw" is that I don't follow orders. I just don't and never did. If someone gives me a reasonable explanation, I will consider it and act accordingly if convinced. But if something looks like nonsense to me and they can't change my mind, I won't do it. I've been dragged to the principal's office more than once, the principal phoned my father and told him to scold me when I get back home. I got back home - and my father just laughed. So much for that. I lived my whole life like that, and honestly, it might be more complicated at times, but it works.

And when I turned 16, I left home. I just left and phoned my father that I won't return. Not because I had trouble at home or something, but because I felt the urge to go my own path. So I did. I still finished school, of course, and to earn my living, I did art commissions and got into the antiquity trade (searching through fleamarkets and thrift stores for rare antiques and selling them at a higher price). I didn't only get along well, even today I think it was the most beautiful time of my life, and one of the best decisions I ever made. And my father? He was okay with it. He just told me that if I ever need something or get into trouble, I should tell him, and if I fail, I can return home anytime.

Then, just a few years ago, after he had passed away, I had a horrible laughing fit when I found old letters and learned that he, too, had vanished from home at 16. He never told me about it, probably because he didn't want to give me bad ideas. It's funny, really; I have the feeling it might just run in our blood. It's almost a pity this bloodline will end with me, but well, that's how it is.

ArchangelIsraphel · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

If you have any lore questions, need info on moral corruption or the mindset of an elven youth deciding to dabble with occultism, feel free to message me. Oh, and of course I might possibly be interested in the result... if you don't mind sharing it.

Absolutely- you know I enjoy discussing plots and the intricacies of a characters mindset, so I'd enjoy hearing any ideas you have. I'll definitely message you with some plot points when I get the chance. I'll share drafts and things if you're interested, especially since your ideas inspired me to look deeper into their relationship. (If I refine it to a point where I really like it, I might even post it somewhere to let others who liked the concept read it as well.)

I've been quietly following the thread, and I really like reading the perspectives on Mannimarco. I -really- enjoy getting into the head of characters like him. I feel like Galerion is where I'm going to get stuck.

Syldras wrote: »

Whether he's romantic? Well, in his own sense, maybe. He doesn't come across as emotional, that's true, but in a way he must be capable of emotions at least, otherwise he would have never cared for Galerion. Maybe it's more like an introversion vs extraversion thing; it's possible to have strong feelings about things, to feel them deeply on the inside, but to not show much reaction to them from the outside. The thing is that onlookers would, of course, not notice anything about that.

I get the impression that Mannimarco's idea of expressing his affection for someone would come in the form of sharing knowledge, or power in the form of elevating someone he felt was worthy/showed potential. His way of expressing love might not even take on traditional form. I also think he's someone who admires the mind and the beauty of well thought out concepts, the intricacies of another persons intelligence, rather than being physically oriented per-se?

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I'm worried for all Bosmer who wander into the general vicinity of your home. If @ArchangelIsraphel goes missing, I know where to start looking!

HEEELLLLP!!! HIS TEAKETTLE IS A PUBLIC HEALTH HAZARD! I keep getting stuck in it! And he hasn't gone shopping for sausages in ages! And I haven't had my hair washed and brushed since Larildur ran away!!! AND AND...

Ahem *cough* I mean no, everything's totally fine. Why would anyone ever question how totally and completely fine everything is?

Syldras · May 21

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Absolutely- you know I enjoy discussing plots and the intricacies of a characters mindset, so I'd enjoy hearing any ideas you have. I'll definitely message you with some plot points when I get the chance. I'll share drafts and things if you're interested, especially since your ideas inspired me to look deeper into their relationship. (If I refine it to a point where I really like it, I might even post it somewhere to let others who liked the concept read it as well.)

Thanks! I'm sure it will be a worthwhile read.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I've been quietly following the thread, and I really like reading the perspectives on Mannimarco. I -really- enjoy getting into the head of characters like him. I feel like Galerion is where I'm going to get stuck.

Yeah, I also find Mannimarco rather easy to think about, but Galerion... Maybe it would be reasonable to look more into his childhood and how he got to Artaeum. I think it's possible that, while of course ending up there was his rescue, it could also have felt like a burden. They had high expectations for him, he probably felt obliged to live up to them out of thankfulness. Also, he might have felt really scared that even a little misstep could ruin it all again for him. That might make an individual a rather rule-abiding, "moralistic" and fastidious person over time.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I get the impression that Mannimarco's idea of expressing his affection for someone would come in the form of sharing knowledge, or power in the form of elevating someone he felt was worthy/showed potential. His way of expressing love might not even take on traditional form. I also think he's someone who admires the mind and the beauty of well thought out concepts, the intricacies of another persons intelligence, rather than being physically oriented per-se?

I agree, but who knows whether he doesn't also enjoy things beyond that? It's not necessarily "either - or". Also, just because someone might not act out something, it doesn't mean it might not be in their mind.

I also think it's remarkable that he showed Galerion his experiments. He wanted to share his successes with him. And I don't think that was only about sharing knowledge, especially since it was not Galerion's field of research at all. It seems more like he was proud about his accomplishments and wanted to share that mood with Galerion.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Why would anyone ever question how totally and completely fine everything is?

Well, there actually were a few complaints in the past. Fortunately, since I hired that one Orc... what was his name? Bash gro-Bonk or something? Anyway, since he's here, everyone seems to be much happier. No complaints anymore, at all.

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

A lot hangs on that small word. If, indeed.

If they misbehave, they'll stay in the "furnishing vault" (Isn't that a beautiful euphemism? Just like all those Argonian "farmers" and "laborers" at the Dres farms in ESO) and get only water and bread until they decide to behave appropriately again. Or wait: Stale beer and bread. That's more awful than water.

You really are an evil wizard!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think you've drawn a pretty good portrait of how Mannimarco would have approached it. Would Galerion have received the attention with the same ease of mind? I honestly don't know, because as we've discussed, it's hard to say how much of Galerion's attitude is genuine and how much is facade. He's very sure of himself magically and mentally, I have no doubt, but emotionally?

If I think of the Artaeum flashbacks, Galerion seemed genuinely scared to me. Of course it was a dangerous situation, so we can't say if he was always like that. But I generally had the impression of him being more insecure. Also, opposites often attract. Maybe Mannimarco was unconsciously drawn to someone he considered gifted and with high potential, but insecure, so he could (from his point of view) elevate him.

I don't think Galerion would have been scared by the attention. Maybe clueless and insecure, but I don't think Mannimarco already seemed dangerous in the beginning. Who knows, maybe Galerion enjoyed getting attention beyond the scholarly, and real affection, especially considering his childhood background.

Maybe that's also the reason he noticed rather late what Mannimarco was up to - his view might have been too rose-tinted or he might have been too naive, in a way. Intelligence and academic success doesn't necessarily mean someone can't be naive. And I don't consider naivité something negative in all cases; sometimes people are just too pure-hearted to imagine what others might be capable of. We also had something like that in that one lorebook @ArchangelIsraphel linked earlier, although we of course don't know how much of that is artistic stylization. Galerion the way we meet him as an adult in ESO doesn't really seem "light and warm" But who knows, maybe he was like that when he was young.

I agree that in the flashbacks Galerion seemed genuinely scared of what Mannimarco was showing him, but also really surprised--like this was the first he was realizing what his friend was doing. He didn't report him immediately, but gave him a chance to self-correct, which could show a somewhat naive state or maybe show that he thought he would be able to convince Mannimarco to stop (which I guess could also be naive, but I was thinking more of thinking their relationship had that level of trust/knowledge in it that they would listen to and value one another's viewpoints).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I admit I'm envious of your sense of self. I was raised pretty much the opposite from you, with a "consider what people will think" mentality that I have taken years to shake off. I think I'm older than you (born in 1970), and my parents were both from the Midwest U.S., where silence and politeness are bywords (well, my biological mother was from Germany, but she died when I was very young, so I will never know what her influence might have been). So, yeah, given those circumstances and influences, I grew up self-conscious and awkward and shy. Still am, really, but I handle it better now.

And when I turned 16, I left home. I just left and phoned my father that I won't return. Not because I had trouble at home or something, but because I felt the urge to go my own path. So I did. I still finished school, of course, and to earn my living, I did art commissions and got into the antiquity trade (searching through fleamarkets and thrift stores for rare antiques and selling them at a higher price). I didn't only get along well, even today I think it was the most beautiful time of my life, and one of the best decisions I ever made. And my father? He was okay with it. He just told me that if I ever need something or get into trouble, I should tell him, and if I fail, I can return home anytime.

Then, just a few years ago, after he had passed away, I had a horrible laughing fit when I found old letters and learned that he, too, had vanished from home at 16. He never told me about it, probably because he didn't want to give me bad ideas. It's funny, really; I have the feeling it might just run in our blood. It's almost a pity this bloodline will end with me, but well, that's how it is.

I found your story interesting in full, but am highlighting this part because it made me think of the nature versus nurture debate. There are aspects to my personality that certainly don't come from my upbringing and, when I was in my early twenties and visited my mother's family, I learned they were like her. These are not things I knew growing up because nobody ever talked about her (that whole 'we don't talk about things' perspective my parents excel at, in addition to my mother's family being in Germany while my family was in the U.S. and there wasn't a whole lot of communication between aside from the annual Christmas box from my grandmother). So perhaps we do inherit things like that from our parents.

Also, you sound quite adventurous! Or at least sure of yourself in a way I wouldn't have been at 16. Plus, I was such a devoted little rule-follower my whole childhood--really threw my parents for a loop when I started questioning the rules in my later teens. I did leave home at 18, but that's fairly standard.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

If you have any lore questions, need info on moral corruption or the mindset of an elven youth deciding to dabble with occultism, feel free to message me. Oh, and of course I might possibly be interested in the result... if you don't mind sharing it.

Absolutely- you know I enjoy discussing plots and the intricacies of a characters mindset, so I'd enjoy hearing any ideas you have. I'll definitely message you with some plot points when I get the chance. I'll share drafts and things if you're interested, especially since your ideas inspired me to look deeper into their relationship. (If I refine it to a point where I really like it, I might even post it somewhere to let others who liked the concept read it as well.)

I've been quietly following the thread, and I really like reading the perspectives on Mannimarco. I -really- enjoy getting into the head of characters like him. I feel like Galerion is where I'm going to get stuck.

If you do feel like sharing with others, I would be interested in reading it.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I'm worried for all Bosmer who wander into the general vicinity of your home. If @ArchangelIsraphel goes missing, I know where to start looking!

HEEELLLLP!!! HIS TEAKETTLE IS A PUBLIC HEALTH HAZARD! I keep getting stuck in it! And he hasn't gone shopping for sausages in ages! And I haven't had my hair washed and brushed since Larildur ran away!!! AND AND...

Ahem *cough* I mean no, everything's totally fine. Why would anyone ever question how totally and completely fine everything is?

Oh, only one little reason: Telvanni. *remains suspicious*

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

You really are an evil friendly and caring wizard!

Fixed it for you

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree that in the flashbacks Galerion seemed genuinely scared of what Mannimarco was showing him, but also really surprised--like this was the first he was realizing what his friend was doing. He didn't report him immediately, but gave him a chance to self-correct, which could show a somewhat naive state or maybe show that he thought he would be able to convince Mannimarco to stop (which I guess could also be naive, but I was thinking more of thinking their relationship had that level of trust/knowledge in it that they would listen to and value one another's viewpoints).

I'm sure they had discussions before. There's that dialogue bit where Mannimarco tells Galerion not to be so humble, and he's replying: "Oh not, not that again..." (or something like that). They must have been talking openly. And I think Galerion was well aware of Mannimarco's curiosity for the forbidden, and maybe generally darker tendencies, but he didn't expect it to be that horrible like it finally turned out. Maybe he thought it's basically just a quirk or a fleeting curiosity (we shouldn't forget they were basically in puberty back then - it might not be that extreme with scholarly types, but they still weren't adults, or young adults at most). Maybe he really saw the situation through rose-tinted glasses and dismissed everything that would, upon a closer look, have been a warning.

metheglyn wrote: »

I found your story interesting in full, but am highlighting this part because it made me think of the nature versus nurture debate. There are aspects to my personality that certainly don't come from my upbringing and, when I was in my early twenties and visited my mother's family, I learned they were like her.

I fully believe now that we inherit traits, and in my case, it seems to be strangely specific and rather extreme. There's also a few more unusual hobbies I have, about which at some point I learned that my father did the same things when he was young.

When I was in my teens, I would have hated this knowledge. Well, not hating being like my father, as he was absolutely ok, but I would have hated to know that we might not be fully able to choose who we are and what our fate is. The whole situation is ironic, in a way: I left because I wanted to go my own path. But without knowing, I did exactly the same as my father did.

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, you sound quite adventurous! Or at least sure of yourself in a way I wouldn't have been at 16.

Reckless. Even more so than I'm today (I've become at least a little bit more reasonable when growing older, after all - although I miss that carelessness of my youth a bit).

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You really are an evil friendly and caring wizard!

Fixed it for you

Lol, so you have. I concede the point. *bows*

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree that in the flashbacks Galerion seemed genuinely scared of what Mannimarco was showing him, but also really surprised--like this was the first he was realizing what his friend was doing. He didn't report him immediately, but gave him a chance to self-correct, which could show a somewhat naive state or maybe show that he thought he would be able to convince Mannimarco to stop (which I guess could also be naive, but I was thinking more of thinking their relationship had that level of trust/knowledge in it that they would listen to and value one another's viewpoints).

I'm sure they had discussions before. There's that dialogue bit where Mannimarco tells Galerion not to be so humble, and he's replying: "Oh not, not that again..." (or something like that). They must have been talking openly. And I think Galerion was well aware of Mannimarco's curiosity for the forbidden, and maybe generally darker tendencies, but he didn't expect it to be that horrible like it finally turned out. Maybe he thought it's basically just a quirk or a fleeting curiosity (we shouldn't forget they were basically in puberty back then - it might not be that extreme with scholarly types, but they still weren't adults, or young adults at most). Maybe he really saw the situation through rose-tinted glasses and dismissed everything that would, upon a closer look, have been a warning.

I believe it was that bit of dialogue in particular (the "not this again" part) that first made me think: hey, there's more to this relationship. It hints at an often-held conversation, the type couples might have, or at least isn't the type of talk you have if you're merely colleagues or students together. Perhaps Galerion was aware of Mannimarco's darker tendencies but didn't give them the weight they deserved, like people tend to do when confronted with such aspects in people they care deeply about.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I found your story interesting in full, but am highlighting this part because it made me think of the nature versus nurture debate. There are aspects to my personality that certainly don't come from my upbringing and, when I was in my early twenties and visited my mother's family, I learned they were like her.

I fully believe now that we inherit traits, and in my case, it seems to be strangely specific and rather extreme. There's also a few more unusual hobbies I have, about which at some point I learned that my father did the same things when he was young.

When I was in my teens, I would have hated this knowledge. Well, not hating being like my father, as he was absolutely ok, but I would have hated to know that we might not be fully able to choose who we are and what our fate is. The whole situation is ironic, in a way: I left because I wanted to go my own path. But without knowing, I did exactly the same as my father did.

Yeah, being told, "You're just like (insert name)" by someone, no matter how much you like them, tends to not be something a young person wants to hear. I certainly didn't.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, you sound quite adventurous! Or at least sure of yourself in a way I wouldn't have been at 16.

Reckless. Even more so than I'm today (I've become at least a little bit more reasonable when growing older, after all - although I miss that carelessness of my youth a bit).

Pretty sure the line between adventurous and reckless is pretty thin and ultimately depends on the overall outcome of the action taken. And though I was never very adventurous, these days I'm positively sedate.

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

I believe it was that bit of dialogue in particular (the "not this again" part) that first made me think: hey, there's more to this relationship. It hints at an often-held conversation, the type couples might have, or at least isn't the type of talk you have if you're merely colleagues or students together.

How long would friends endure that? If it's not a very deep bond, people would probably get annoyed at some point? Also, they didn't know each other since early childhood; Galerion arrived when he was 11, so they might have known each other for a few years maybe.

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps Galerion was aware of Mannimarco's darker tendencies but didn't give them the weight they deserved, like people tend to do when confronted with such aspects in people they care deeply about.

I think it's possible that darker tendencies have always been present somehow (Why do I have to think of Edgar Allen Poe now? Oh, right), but that's just interpretation, of course. But even if it were true, it wouldn't be something to worry about at first. There are so many gloomier people, and there have been throughout history, if we think of some arts and cultural movements, and none of them were a threat. It's very likely Mannimarco didn't even try to hide those tendencies, people probably just thought he was a little quirky, but not actually dangerous.

metheglyn · May 22

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I believe it was that bit of dialogue in particular (the "not this again" part) that first made me think: hey, there's more to this relationship. It hints at an often-held conversation, the type couples might have, or at least isn't the type of talk you have if you're merely colleagues or students together.

How long would friends endure that? If it's not a very deep bond, people would probably get annoyed at some point? Also, they didn't know each other since early childhood; Galerion arrived when he was 11, so they might have known each other for a few years maybe.

I don't think people would endure that if there wasn't a strong bond between them. When he says it in the flashback, to me he sounded a little weary in a kind of "we've talked about this" way but not outright annoyed. Maybe "often-held" was the wrong term to use: mostly I meant it's not the type of conversation that comes up with just anyone.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps Galerion was aware of Mannimarco's darker tendencies but didn't give them the weight they deserved, like people tend to do when confronted with such aspects in people they care deeply about.

I think it's possible that darker tendencies have always been present somehow (Why do I have to think of Edgar Allen Poe now? Oh, right), but that's just interpretation, of course. But even if it were true, it wouldn't be something to worry about at first. There are so many gloomier people, and there have been throughout history, if we think of some arts and cultural movements, and none of them were a threat. It's very likely Mannimarco didn't even try to hide those tendencies, people probably just thought he was a little quirky, but not actually dangerous.

Well, that's why he struck me as somewhat surprised by Mannimarco's activities. He may have known of Mannimarco's interest in the darker aspects of magic, but not known how serious he was about it. So he didn't consider just the fact of the interest as dangerous, but when he saw Mannimarco actually pursuing such magic, he told him to "stop, please" without realizing, at that point, how serious Mannimarco was about pursuing it. For some reason (and there are several plausible ones) he thought he had some level of influence over Mannimarco, because he didn't immediately tell the ritemaster.

In the recent prologue, he had some line about how long he'd been facing Mannimarco and his cult, and I really felt for him in that moment. Pretty sure he doesn't know part of his past is on display for every chance traveler going through Artaeum, and it would have been very awkward to bring it up to him, but I did kind of want to ask, "Care to talk about it?"

Also, I'm one of those people guilty of conflating Poe with Gothic fiction rather than Dark Romanticism. Oops!

Syldras · May 22

metheglyn wrote: »

In the recent prologue, he had some line about how long he'd been facing Mannimarco and his cult, and I really felt for him in that moment. Pretty sure he doesn't know part of his past is on display for every chance traveler going through Artaeum, and it would have been very awkward to bring it up to him, but I did kind of want to ask, "Care to talk about it?"

I just checked the dialogues again out of curiosity; came across this:

Mezamma: "Arrogant mage. My master demands your presence."
<Mezamma opens a beneath Vanus' feet and he is dragged down into it.>

What would you think in that situation? In my case it would probably not be "random cultists will drag me to Molag Bal" or "random cultists will drag me to random new cultist leader". I do feel sorry for him somehow.

Another thing I came to wonder about is why Mannimarco and Molag Bal have been connected story-wise in ESO. I mean, Molag Bal's domain does include vampires, so there's a bit of a connection to the topic of undead, and we have the domination/enslavement aspect, that could be seen as related to summoning the dead as thralls. But if I'm not totally wrong, the Worm Cult have always been "only" necromancers, not daedra worshippers, in older lore.

It remains mysterious. As mysterious as a cleanly Altmer handling dirt, dust and the dead, out of his own free will

metheglyn · May 22

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In the recent prologue, he had some line about how long he'd been facing Mannimarco and his cult, and I really felt for him in that moment. Pretty sure he doesn't know part of his past is on display for every chance traveler going through Artaeum, and it would have been very awkward to bring it up to him, but I did kind of want to ask, "Care to talk about it?"

I just checked the dialogues again out of curiosity; came across this:

Mezamma: "Arrogant mage. My master demands your presence."
<Mezamma opens a beneath Vanus' feet and he is dragged down into it.>

What would you think in that situation? In my case it would probably not be "random cultists will drag me to Molag Bal" or "random cultists will drag me to random new cultist leader". I do feel sorry for him somehow.

Another thing I came to wonder about is why Mannimarco and Molag Bal have been connected story-wise in ESO. I mean, Molag Bal's domain does include vampires, so there's a bit of a connection to the topic of undead, and we have the domination/enslavement aspect, that could be seen as related to summoning the dead as thralls. But if I'm not totally wrong, the Worm Cult have always been "only" necromancers, not daedra worshippers, in older lore.

It remains mysterious. As mysterious as a cleanly Altmer handling dirt, dust and the dead, out of his own free will

We learned before Vanus came into the prologue story that the Worm Cult is trying impress Molag Bal and get revenge in his name for the plane meld being stopped. Vanus does ask us to fill him in on what's been going on, and he does know the cult is trying to gain favor with Molag Bal. Yet if they haven't gained it yet, it seems like Vanus wouldn't think her master was Molag Bal. For all that Mezamma says her master demands his presence, he ends up in a cell guarded by worm cultists and not in presence of said master. He did say where he was being imprisoned was a "problem for later." I don't know what I would think in that situation, but I probably wouldn't have been as calm about it as he was.

I do hope we get to free him from wherever he is, and not just so I can remind him that's twice now I had to save him.

During the main quest, Mannimarco refers to Molag Bal as his master often enough (far too often for me; honestly, once was enough) but I never really got a sense of why that was such a good match-up for either of them. I guess it could have been as simple as "means to an end" for both of them, but it honestly didn't seem that working for Molag Bal and helping jump start the plane meld did much in the way of furthering Mannimarco's ultimate goal of ascending to godhood via the amulet of kings.

I think the Altmer have disowned Mannimarco at this point because, well, undead are gross.

Syldras · May 22

metheglyn wrote: »

He did say where he was being imprisoned was a "problem for later." I don't know what I would think in that situation, but I probably wouldn't have been as calm about it as he was.

Maybe he's gotten used to getting kidnapped by now. Or maybe emotional writing is... I don't know... unsafe?

metheglyn wrote: »

During the main quest, Mannimarco refers to Molag Bal as his master often enough (far too often for me; honestly, once was enough) but I never really got a sense of why that was such a good match-up for either of them. I guess it could have been as simple as "means to an end" for both of them, but it honestly didn't seem that working for Molag Bal and helping jump start the plane meld did much in the way of furthering Mannimarco's ultimate goal of ascending to godhood via the amulet of kings.

If I was a Daedric Prince, I'd search for less dangerous cultists - I mean, less dangerous for me, of course.

metheglyn wrote: »

I think the Altmer have disowned Mannimarco at this point because, well, undead are gross.

Even that's a culture-relative sentiment (although I personally do agree - decay is disgusting and I wouldn't ever want to smell a Worm Cult lair), but considering the Altmer's strong focus on purity, it should be especially scandalous. Who knows, maybe some snap specifically because of that

metheglyn · May 22

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He did say where he was being imprisoned was a "problem for later." I don't know what I would think in that situation, but I probably wouldn't have been as calm about it as he was.

Maybe he's gotten used to getting kidnapped by now. Or maybe emotional writing is... I don't know... unsafe?

Another day, another kidnapping; just a regular occurrence in the great mage's life. I would like to see an attempted kidnapping of him where he, for once, gets the better of his captors.

You got me thinking about the emotional writing that cropped up in the prologue. First Azah is devastated by Merric's death, and then Skordo is gutted when Vanus gets captured. Though I wouldn't call those the same emotion (one is grief, the other guilt), they are dealt with in the dialogue essentially the same and given short shrift. One line from us is all it takes to get both of them back on track. I get that time is of the essence and we have to act quickly to get on Mezamma's trail both times, but the way it comes across is so odd and abrupt.

It's unfortunate that the prologue, to serve its purpose, has to conclude so quickly and can't include any meaningful passage of time to adequately deal with such emotions. But maybe that was the point of it: in situations as dire as this, emotions have to be put on the back-burner. Maybe in the main quest there will be some follow-through with how Azah is dealing with losing a person he describes as a second father.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

During the main quest, Mannimarco refers to Molag Bal as his master often enough (far too often for me; honestly, once was enough) but I never really got a sense of why that was such a good match-up for either of them. I guess it could have been as simple as "means to an end" for both of them, but it honestly didn't seem that working for Molag Bal and helping jump start the plane meld did much in the way of furthering Mannimarco's ultimate goal of ascending to godhood via the amulet of kings.

If I was a Daedric Prince, I'd search for less dangerous cultists - I mean, less dangerous for me, of course.

They certainly don't seem very effective at pursuing Molag Bal's agenda. I don't even know how great they were at pursuing Mannimarco's agenda.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think the Altmer have disowned Mannimarco at this point because, well, undead are gross.

Even that's a culture-relative sentiment (although I personally do agree - decay is disgusting and I wouldn't ever want to smell a Worm Cult lair), but considering the Altmer's strong focus on purity, it should be especially scandalous. Who knows, maybe some snap specifically because of that

Well, my main is an Altmer, and I was thinking of it from his perspective. I actually had a storyline for him where he did snap under the pressure of upholding all it means to be an Altmer, but he descended into Dark Brotherhood territory rather than necromancy. He didn't snap that much.

Syldras · May 23

metheglyn wrote: »

Another day, another kidnapping; just a regular occurrence in the great mage's life. I would like to see an attempted kidnapping of him where he, for once, gets the better of his captors.

Nah, won't happen. He'll remain the eternal damsel in distress, even in death. Tragic.

metheglyn wrote: »

You got me thinking about the emotional writing that cropped up in the prologue. First Azah is devastated by Merric's death, and then Skordo is gutted when Vanus gets captured. Though I wouldn't call those the same emotion (one is grief, the other guilt), they are dealt with in the dialogue essentially the same and given short shrift. One line from us is all it takes to get both of them back on track. I get that time is of the essence and we have to act quickly to get on Mezamma's trail both times, but the way it comes across is so odd and abrupt.
It's unfortunate that the prologue, to serve its purpose, has to conclude so quickly and can't include any meaningful passage of time to adequately deal with such emotions. But maybe that was the point of it: in situations as dire as this, emotions have to be put on the back-burner. Maybe in the main quest there will be some follow-through with how Azah is dealing with losing a person he describes as a second father.

Who knows. I sometimes have the impression that every dire situation is concluded with a joke somehow: the quippiness in writing that some people have already mentioned when ever that topic comes up again. Now of course I know that some people joke in a horrible situation because it helps them calm their nerves or uphold their calm or hope or something like that, even in real life; but still, in ESO it sometimes feels, to me personally, like they just throw in jokes because they might think the average player can't endure a negative feeling for more than 1 minute.

I personally prefer more serious writing, I don't mind a tense or sad atmosphere at all, if it fits the story. It should feel appropriate to the situation, and believable. Mourning a person for half a minute does not seem believable to me. I understand of course that it might be difficult to portray grief if the whole story takes place in only half an hour or so, but still, the fast emotional ups and downs (several times even) within that short prologue just feel unnatural.

metheglyn wrote: »

They certainly don't seem very effective at pursuing Molag Bal's agenda. I don't even know how great they were at pursuing Mannimarco's agenda.

They're evil people the player character can kill, isn't that enough?

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, my main is an Altmer, and I was thinking of it from his perspective. I actually had a storyline for him where he did snap under the pressure of upholding all it means to be an Altmer, but he descended into Dark Brotherhood territory rather than necromancy. He didn't snap that much.

Dark Brotherhood? That's harmless. He could have become a sewerage worker or a garbage man. That would be wicked!

metheglyn · May 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Another day, another kidnapping; just a regular occurrence in the great mage's life. I would like to see an attempted kidnapping of him where he, for once, gets the better of his captors.

Nah, won't happen. He'll remain the eternal damsel in distress, even in death. Tragic.

I laughed, even though I know how it eventually ends for him. Ah, poor Vanus.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You got me thinking about the emotional writing that cropped up in the prologue. First Azah is devastated by Merric's death, and then Skordo is gutted when Vanus gets captured. Though I wouldn't call those the same emotion (one is grief, the other guilt), they are dealt with in the dialogue essentially the same and given short shrift. One line from us is all it takes to get both of them back on track. I get that time is of the essence and we have to act quickly to get on Mezamma's trail both times, but the way it comes across is so odd and abrupt.
It's unfortunate that the prologue, to serve its purpose, has to conclude so quickly and can't include any meaningful passage of time to adequately deal with such emotions. But maybe that was the point of it: in situations as dire as this, emotions have to be put on the back-burner. Maybe in the main quest there will be some follow-through with how Azah is dealing with losing a person he describes as a second father.

Who knows. I sometimes have the impression that every dire situation is concluded with a joke somehow: the quippiness in writing that some people have already mentioned when ever that topic comes up again. Now of course I know that some people joke in a horrible situation because it helps them calm their nerves or uphold their calm or hope or something like that, even in real life; but still, in ESO it sometimes feels, to me personally, like they just throw in jokes because they might think the average player can't endure a negative feeling for more than 1 minute.

I personally prefer more serious writing, I don't mind a tense or sad atmosphere at all, if it fits the story. It should feel appropriate to the situation, and believable. Mourning a person for half a minute does not seem believable to me. I understand of course that it might be difficult to portray grief if the whole story takes place in only half an hour or so, but still, the fast emotional ups and downs (several times even) within that short prologue just feel unnatural.

Yeah, I didn't care for it either; I was just trying to think of a reason they might have had for writing it that way. But in both instances they go from desolate to businesslike in the turn of a phrase and I was left thinking, "That's it?"

I like a balance of serious and humorous in writing but the most important aspect for me is, as you say, that it fits the story. I don't know Azah very well as a character, so maybe the combination of his upbringing (not too up on Redguard culture) and personality would shake off a deep emotion that fast. Doesn't seem likely to me, though, that if that were the case, he'd express such deep sorrow to begin with.

I do appreciate that they were trying for some emotional heft, because I do get tired of all the quippy characters we come across. I just don't think it worked.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They certainly don't seem very effective at pursuing Molag Bal's agenda. I don't even know how great they were at pursuing Mannimarco's agenda.

They're evil people the player character can kill, isn't that enough?

*sigh* I guess it has to be. Maybe I'll imagine they're all Dark Brotherhood targets.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, my main is an Altmer, and I was thinking of it from his perspective. I actually had a storyline for him where he did snap under the pressure of upholding all it means to be an Altmer, but he descended into Dark Brotherhood territory rather than necromancy. He didn't snap that much.

Dark Brotherhood? That's harmless. He could have become a sewerage worker or a garbage man. That would be wicked!

Well, I mean, he's still a fancy, clean Altmer at heart.

Syldras · May 23

metheglyn wrote: »

I laughed, even though I know how it eventually ends for him. Ah, poor Vanus.

Don't worry, maybe his suffering will end one day - erased from the stories because it's very unsafe (if this is not unsafe, then I don't know what). Then it will all just be some bad, bad dream, or some weird occurence in a strange parallel dimension everyone has forgotten about; instead, uhm... I don't know, maybe Mannimarco just decided to not be evil and start a wildlife conservation organisation on Summerset instead (Save the Indrik!), or he might have just have married Galerion and become the great mage's housewife/person/man/whatever (now I imagine him as the horrible cliché from 1950's homeware ads, complete with feather duster, apron, fake smile and all).

metheglyn wrote: »

I do appreciate that they were trying for some emotional heft, because I do get tired of all the quippy characters we come across. I just don't think it worked.

I'd put it like this: It worked better in the earlier years of ESO.

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I mean, he's still a fancy, clean Altmer at heart.

Wait. Maybe we all misunderstood a thing: Galerion has no problem with necromancy at all, he just hates uncleanliness! He was actually just upset that Mannimarco wasn't washing the corpses properly (or not properly enough, at least) before resurrecting them. Must be like that, as I find that very relatable

metheglyn · May 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I laughed, even though I know how it eventually ends for him. Ah, poor Vanus.

Don't worry, maybe his suffering will end one day - erased from the stories because it's very unsafe (if this is not unsafe, then I don't know what). Then it will all just be some bad, bad dream, or some weird occurence in a strange parallel dimension everyone has forgotten about; instead, uhm... I don't know, maybe Mannimarco just decided to not be evil and start a wildlife conservation organisation on Summerset instead (Save the Indrik!), or he might have just have married Galerion and become the great mage's housewife/person/man/whatever (now I imagine him as the horrible cliché from 1950's homeware ads, complete with feather duster, apron, fake smile and all).

I'd like to see (for a few minutes, anyway) alternate reality Mannimarco as Vanus' housewife. Making sure the great mage has everything he needs after he gets home from a long day of doing...whatever the great mage does. (Vanus was exceptionally vague about that when I asked him what he'd been up to lately). But once I'd gotten a good chuckle out of the scenario, I'd want it to go away.

I don't think we're in any danger of them retconning Vanus' eventual fate (at least I hope not), but I do wonder if we'll get any satisfactory representation of it in game. We don't know exactly when their final battle is, so I have no idea if we'll ever see it, or it's just going to be one of those lore footnotes.

I do want them to take more risks with storytelling, and not always go for the tidy ending. This constant bringing people back from death or disappearance is unsatisfactory. When we lost Gadayn in Gold Road, it actually meant something to me because I liked that character and he made the choice to put himself in danger. It would have played better, for me, if Leramil had to deal with him being gone rather than having her owe Mora some mysterious debt for having Gadayn returned to her.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do appreciate that they were trying for some emotional heft, because I do get tired of all the quippy characters we come across. I just don't think it worked.

I'd put it like this: It worked better in the earlier years of ESO.

I do remember quests and storylines from base game/Morrowind/Clockwork City that resonated more with me, or at least didn't make me wish it had all gone differently. One of those being in Reaper's March, where you have a choice to make: destroy a powerful Ayleid artifact that's too dangerous to keep around, and in doing so be the means of Razum'dar's death, or don't destroy it and thereby be able to rescue Razum'dar. Raz tells you to destroy it, knowing full well what will happen, and you can choose to have a few moments of reminiscing with him before doing so.

Well, when I first did that quest, my character couldn't bring himself to kill Raz. So he didn't, and Raz was really angry at him, and the artifact still had to be dealt with in some manner. It was satisfactory to me, though, because I got to make the choice and I assumed I would have to deal with the consequences. (I actually did think there might be a later quest dealing with that artifact, but there never was). That quest worked in its time as a good emotional hit.

But then they kinda ruined the meaning of that quest when Raz is back for Summerset no matter what choice you made. So in subsequent playthroughs, my characters just choose to destroy the artifact, because I know Raz is going to be ok in the end.

Hmm...I don't think I'm making the point I thought I was. Though I guess that example does illustrate how the story has gotten more safe over the years.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I mean, he's still a fancy, clean Altmer at heart.

Wait. Maybe we all misunderstood a thing: Galerion has no problem with necromancy at all, he just hates uncleanliness! He was actually just upset that Mannimarco wasn't washing the corpses properly (or not properly enough, at least) before resurrecting them. Must be like that, as I find that very relatable

Lol! I'm sure you've cracked the case!

Syldras · May 23

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd like to see (for a few minutes, anyway) alternate reality Mannimarco as Vanus' housewife.

Well, I'm, too, fascinated by the absurd, the ghastly and the obscure - for scientific reasons, of course - or, to put it short: Who doesn't?

Which gives me a new idea: I need a houselich. I really need one; that would be a wonderful addition to my household (and most of all: Gothren would be impressed)!

metheglyn wrote: »

Making sure the great mage has everything he needs after he gets home from a long day of doing...whatever the great mage does. (Vanus was exceptionally vague about that when I asked him what he'd been up to lately).

You know, actually I've been wondering about exactly the same: What does he even do all day in his position? Except for getting kidnapped, that is.

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think we're in any danger of them retconning Vanus' eventual fate (at least I hope not), but I do wonder if we'll get any satisfactory representation of it in game. We don't know exactly when their final battle is, so I have no idea if we'll ever see it, or it's just going to be one of those lore footnotes.

I honestly would want to see it; it would be a waste if that would not be visualized. But the problem indeed is that it would probably look much less spectacular in game, even if it was just for technical reasons, than the idea we have of it right now based on that lorebook.

Although, the more I think of it: It actually would be interesting if it turned out the lorebook was only fiction (I mean within the world of TES) and it actually ended differently. There would be some possibilities which were rather interesting...

metheglyn wrote: »

I do want them to take more risks with storytelling, and not always go for the tidy ending. This constant bringing people back from death or disappearance is unsatisfactory. When we lost Gadayn in Gold Road, it actually meant something to me because I liked that character and he made the choice to put himself in danger. It would have played better, for me, if Leramil had to deal with him being gone rather than having her owe Mora some mysterious debt for having Gadayn returned to her.
I do remember quests and storylines from base game/Morrowind/Clockwork City that resonated more with me, or at least didn't make me wish it had all gone differently. One of those being in Reaper's March, where you have a choice to make: destroy a powerful Ayleid artifact that's too dangerous to keep around, and in doing so be the means of Razum'dar's death, or don't destroy it and thereby be able to rescue Razum'dar. Raz tells you to destroy it, knowing full well what will happen, and you can choose to have a few moments of reminiscing with him before doing so.
Well, when I first did that quest, my character couldn't bring himself to kill Raz. So he didn't, and Raz was really angry at him, and the artifact still had to be dealt with in some manner. It was satisfactory to me, though, because I got to make the choice and I assumed I would have to deal with the consequences. (I actually did think there might be a later quest dealing with that artifact, but there never was). That quest worked in its time as a good emotional hit.
But then they kinda ruined the meaning of that quest when Raz is back for Summerset no matter what choice you made. So in subsequent playthroughs, my characters just choose to destroy the artifact, because I know Raz is going to be ok in the end.
Hmm...I don't think I'm making the point I thought I was. Though I guess that example does illustrate how the story has gotten more safe over the years.

The big difference to me seems to be that in the earlier years, there were character deaths (and generally situations that had an emotional impact on the player). Like Khali or Shazah in the base game, or Veya, Leythen and Iachesis in Summerset. Whenever a poll is made on this forum, guess what the most popular stories are... It's exactly the more serious ones of the early years. As an author, this would make me think.

metheglyn · May 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd like to see (for a few minutes, anyway) alternate reality Mannimarco as Vanus' housewife.

Well, I'm, too, fascinated by the absurd, the ghastly and the obscure - for scientific reasons, of course - or, to put it short: Who doesn't?

Which gives me a new idea: I need a houselich. I really need one; that would be a wonderful addition to my household (and most of all: Gothren would be impressed)!

I didn't know Gothren could be impressed by anyone other than himself. But if a houselich would do it, you better go get yourself one!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Making sure the great mage has everything he needs after he gets home from a long day of doing...whatever the great mage does. (Vanus was exceptionally vague about that when I asked him what he'd been up to lately).

You know, actually I've been wondering about exactly the same: What does he even do all day in his position? Except for getting kidnapped, that is.

Need a new quest: A Day in the Life of Vanus Galerion. Or maybe we could just read his journal.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think we're in any danger of them retconning Vanus' eventual fate (at least I hope not), but I do wonder if we'll get any satisfactory representation of it in game. We don't know exactly when their final battle is, so I have no idea if we'll ever see it, or it's just going to be one of those lore footnotes.

I honestly would want to see it; it would be a waste if that would not be visualized. But the problem indeed is that it would probably look much less spectacular in game, even if it was just for technical reasons, than the idea we have of it right now based on that lorebook.

Although, the more I think of it: It actually would be interesting if it turned out the lorebook was only fiction (I mean within the world of TES) and it actually ended differently. There would be some possibilities which were rather interesting...

There would be, indeed. I forget sometimes that the lore books in game aren't to be taken as 100% verified history; that they're prey to bias and inaccuracy and sometimes outright propaganda and lying. So say whoever wrote the account about the final battle had a vested interest in making it seem like Vanus died, but they didn't actually know what happened to him. Or if not even intentionally meaning to lead people astray, just going by best guess. Or any of a number of other reasons.

Syldras wrote: »

The big difference to me seems to be that in the earlier years, there were character deaths (and generally situations that had an emotional impact on the player). Like Khali or Shazah in the base game, or Veya, Leythen and Iachesis in Summerset. Whenever a poll is made on this forum, guess what the most popular stories are... It's exactly the more serious ones of the early years. As an author, this would make me think.

Khali or Shazah was a very hard decision to make, and their quest arc in full was well done. Speaking of motivations to join a cult (which we were at some point in time, but I think in a different thread), Leythen is a good example of that. You come to a real understanding of him and his choices throughout that quest. No point to make here, just reflecting on how much I appreciated those stories.

Perhaps they can get back to the more serious tones with upcoming content. Serious and nuanced.

Syldras · May 23

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't know Gothren could be impressed by anyone other than himself. But if a houselich would do it, you better go get yourself one!

I believe I might have already impressed him once, if I think back at the way he stared at me when he got his last birthday present... So I'm certain a houselich would impress him as well; he only has dremora after all, and those don't even have hair!

metheglyn wrote: »

Need a new quest: A Day in the Life of Vanus Galerion.

Oh, that would be awesome! Before or after Mannimarco gets his corpse? ...

I'm not sure which of it would be more interesting; even if life, he probably just sits in his office and drinks tea anyway.

metheglyn wrote: »

There would be, indeed. I forget sometimes that the lore books in game aren't to be taken as 100% verified history; that they're prey to bias and inaccuracy and sometimes outright propaganda and lying. So say whoever wrote the account about the final battle had a vested interest in making it seem like Vanus died, but they didn't actually know what happened to him. Or if not even intentionally meaning to lead people astray, just going by best guess. Or any of a number of other reasons.

That was my idea as well: That he might not even be dead.

metheglyn wrote: »

Khali or Shazah was a very hard decision to make

For me not much, but I still enjoyed the writing very much and think it was a really tragic story.

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps they can get back to the more serious tones with upcoming content. Serious and nuanced.

I'd hope for that, really! I'm just not sure how probable it is.

metheglyn · May 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't know Gothren could be impressed by anyone other than himself. But if a houselich would do it, you better go get yourself one!

I believe I might have already impressed him once, if I think back at the way he stared at me when he got his last birthday present... So I'm certain a houselich would impress him as well; he only has dremora after all, and those don't even have hair!

Never would have thought Gothren was a birthday celebrator. Was the dremora the present?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Need a new quest: A Day in the Life of Vanus Galerion.

Oh, that would be awesome! Before or after Mannimarco gets his corpse? ...

I'm not sure which of it would be more interesting; even if life, he probably just sits in his office and drinks tea anyway.

Why limit ourselves? Let's have both! And if the living day was filled with tea-drinking and endless meetings, then the undead day would be bound to be more interesting.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps they can get back to the more serious tones with upcoming content. Serious and nuanced.

I'd hope for that, really! I'm just not sure how probable it is.

I don't know, either, but since we know they are capable of it, I'm going to keep hoping!

Syldras · May 23

metheglyn wrote: »

Never would have thought Gothren was a birthday celebrator. Was the dremora the present?

No, no, he summons those himself.

I'm wondering where I'd get a houselich from now... I might have to sacrifice one of my servants... Oh, don't worry! The Bosmer is safe (only the things we discuss are usually not - #justbosmerthings).

metheglyn wrote: »

Why limit ourselves? Let's have both! And if the living day was filled with tea-drinking and endless meetings, then the undead day would be bound to be more interesting.

Is that the romance content they promised?

metheglyn · May 24

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Never would have thought Gothren was a birthday celebrator. Was the dremora the present?

No, no, he summons those himself.

I'm wondering where I'd get a houselich from now... I might have to sacrifice one of my servants... Oh, don't worry! The Bosmer is safe (only the things we discuss are usually not - #justbosmerthings).

All you have to do is go to a dolmen, wait for the cultists to show up, and pick one of them to become your houselich. I think they'd do a great job because 1. they're totally into necromancy and 2. they like taking weird orders. Bonus, the Bosmer could finally get his hair washed again, perhaps even while you have one of those undoubtedly interesting discussions.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Why limit ourselves? Let's have both! And if the living day was filled with tea-drinking and endless meetings, then the undead day would be bound to be more interesting.

Is that the romance content they promised?

Lol, well...why not?

Syldras · May 24

metheglyn wrote: »

All you have to do is go to a dolmen, wait for the cultists to show up, and pick one of them to become your houselich.

@ArchangelIsraphel Bosmer, go fetch a sack, we'll catch a new friend for you! Don't eat him - I said "friend", not "jerky"!

metheglyn wrote: »

I think they'd do a great job because 1. they're totally into necromancy and 2. they like taking weird orders.

Weird orders? That sounds very useful... Although I never give weird orders, of course, only reasonable ones.

metheglyn wrote: »

Bonus, the Bosmer could finally get his hair washed again, perhaps even while you have one of those undoubtedly interesting discussions.

Sounds like a beneficial situation for all of us, including the lich.

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, well...why not?

Finally some interesting romance content! When I said I wanted to romance Hermaeus Mora, people just reacted strangely.

metheglyn · May 24

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think they'd do a great job because 1. they're totally into necromancy and 2. they like taking weird orders.

Weird orders? That sounds very useful... Although I never give weird orders, of course, only reasonable ones.

Of course, of course you do.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, well...why not?

Finally some interesting romance content! When I said I wanted to romance Hermaeus Mora, people just reacted strangely.

Well...people...you know. I mean, I really don't see what's so great about a mass of tentacles and eyeballs, but if that's what you want! Just don't sign any contracts with him about it. He loves his contracts. Maybe the Bosmer and the houselich could help you strategize a date. I feel like any date with Mora needs a lot of strategy.

Syldras · May 24

metheglyn wrote: »

Of course, of course you do.

I never hear complaints about my orders, so they can't be that unreasonable!

metheglyn wrote: »

Well...people...you know. I mean, I really don't see what's so great about a mass of tentacles and eyeballs, but if that's what you want!

Knowledge. It's about the knowledge. Although I have to admit that those tentacles are quite charming as well. The way they undulate has a calming effect on me.

metheglyn wrote: »

Just don't sign any contracts with him about it. He loves his contracts. Maybe the Bosmer and the houselich could help you strategize a date. I feel like any date with Mora needs a lot of strategy.

*takes notes* Mora summoning day... First Seed 5. What?

At least I'm not dating zombified Galerion, so I can't be that strange!

metheglyn · May 24

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Of course, of course you do.

I never hear complaints about my orders, so they can't be that unreasonable!

Oh, well, if you never hear complaints, then there must not be any! I'm sure everything's fine.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well...people...you know. I mean, I really don't see what's so great about a mass of tentacles and eyeballs, but if that's what you want!

Knowledge. It's about the knowledge. Although I have to admit that those tentacles are quite charming as well. The way they undulate has a calming effect on me.

You see, this is how Mora gets you. The tentacles undulate, you get a little too calm, and then you're little better than a hireling he uses on endless drudgery tasks. Though I do believe that if anyone can survive, er, I mean enjoy a date with Mora, it'd be someone from House Telvanni. You might even get home with your sanity intact!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Just don't sign any contracts with him about it. He loves his contracts. Maybe the Bosmer and the houselich could help you strategize a date. I feel like any date with Mora needs a lot of strategy.

*takes notes* Mora summoning day... First Seed 5. What?

At least I'm not dating zombified Galerion, so I can't be that strange!

If dating a vampire isn't considered strange (and from all I've heard on the subject, it isn't), then how strange could it really be to date a zombie? Doesn't zombie Galerion deserve affection, too?

Syldras · May 24

metheglyn wrote: »

You see, this is how Mora gets you. The tentacles undulate, you get a little too calm, and then you're little better than a hireling he uses on endless drudgery tasks. Though I do believe that if anyone can survive, er, I mean enjoy a date with Mora, it'd be someone from House Telvanni. You might even get home with your sanity intact!

My what?

metheglyn wrote: »

If dating a vampire isn't considered strange (and from all I've heard on the subject, it isn't), then how strange could it really be to date a zombie? Doesn't zombie Galerion deserve affection, too?

Strange, I think I heard something similar from a Dunmer alchemist in Skingrad once...

metheglyn · May 24

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You see, this is how Mora gets you. The tentacles undulate, you get a little too calm, and then you're little better than a hireling he uses on endless drudgery tasks. Though I do believe that if anyone can survive, er, I mean enjoy a date with Mora, it'd be someone from House Telvanni. You might even get home with your sanity intact!

My what?

Right, right, my mistake. Well, I suppose you are as ready as anyone could be, then. Just don't end up like Morian Zenas. I think the Bosmer would miss you.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If dating a vampire isn't considered strange (and from all I've heard on the subject, it isn't), then how strange could it really be to date a zombie? Doesn't zombie Galerion deserve affection, too?

Strange, I think I heard something similar from a Dunmer alchemist in Skingrad once...

I wouldn't know anything about such an alchemist. And we're getting ahead of the matter, as it were. Galerion, at least last I saw him, wasn't a zombie. Whatever Wormblood has in store for him, dating probably doesn't enter into it. Assuming Wormblood is both behind his capture and isn't Mannimarco.