Subclassing has sucked the life out of patch 46

fizzylu · May 21

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

Warhawke_80 · May 21

I belong to two very large guilds...for the most part everyone is excited...

Iselin · May 21

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top. Ask any knowledgeable raid leader, and they'll all tell you we're not wanted for anything above Vet dungeons and possibly normal trials. Its forte is low APM, not being top DPS or bringing much to groups.

It is already well below meta DPS builds, and we're not taking anyone's spot in HM trials, lol.

Try it for yourself and you'll see.

Elowen_Starveil · May 21

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

daemondamian · May 21

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

Lalothen · May 21

Iselin wrote: »

I'm an OG player who has been away from the game for 2.5 yrs and only returned because subclassing brings the game closer than it has ever been to the “build your own class” game I've always wanted.

I'm actually really surprised at the amount of anticipatory panic I've been seeing in this forum and Reddit.

I've been on the PTS a bit playing both my copied from live “pure” classes and subclassed max level new character. I see no reason to fear update 46.

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

Sorry for my positivity.

Speaking from my own point of view I don't "fear" subclassing - but it does objectively ram further homogeneity down the throats of those players at the top end of the game for whom the meta is a must. Granted most players aren't in that demographic, but frankly it irks me to no end that ZOS have chosen to boost their sales with subclassing without doing several important things first:

1) Completing hyrbidisation.

2) Balancing out classes and skill lines so that folk are choosing between near-as-damnit equals, rather than there being objectively clear winners & losers as currently (In a similar vein: making sure every class has a clear & competitive dps/tank/heal skill line).

3) Breaking the stale gear meta that's had its hands around the throat of build diversity since before COVID.

These things wouldn't just improve retention at the top end of gameplay, they'd be good for everyone - and they could make subclassing the subject of more rigorous ongoing theorycrafting. As it stands the new meta has already been figured out, because particularly in points 2 & 3 there are very clear "choices-that-aren't-choices" to be made.

Iselin wrote: »

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top. Ask any knowledgeable raid leader, and they'll all tell you we're not wanted for anything above Vet dungeons and possibly normal trials. Its forte is low APM, not being top DPS or bringing much to groups.

It is already well below meta DPS builds, and we're not taking anyone's spot in HM trials, lol.

Try it for yourself and you'll see.

Former HM trial HA Sorc from a mid-tier prog group here. While it's not a top dummy build the tankiness, sustain and fast ramp-up, easily peakable DPS - along with almost back-to-back Atros if you're running Oakensoul or Heroism pots - make it a solid DPS in any but top-end sweaty groups. Do you want to fill your group with HA builds? Not since lightning staff got the crap nerfed out of its AoE ability - but having a capable HA Sorc in-group is not a handicap.

The thing is, it's a build that is easily overshadowed by Arcanists with their even easier, lower APM playstyle. If only Arcanists could drop Atros too.... oh wait!

frogthroat · May 21

Iselin wrote: »

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top.

Well, there was a short period of time when it was at the top. Just when Oakensoul came, before it was nerfed, for a couple of months HA Oakensorc dominated. It was ridiculously broken.

RealLoveBVB · May 21

frogthroat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top.

Well, there was a short period of time when it was at the top. Just when Oakensoul came, before it was nerfed, for a couple of months HA Oakensorc dominated. It was ridiculously broken.

That was one of the bigger mistakes by ZOS. Adding a easy build, that supports laziness. In that time you had 30k health, high burst heal and a high burst shield, while only holding the left mouse button to deal high damage.
Beginners were advised to use that build. That means, they never actually learned to press more than 2 buttons, have no clue about buffs and their uptimes.
This build is still in players mouth, meaning after the nerf, players and beginners are still playing it.
And here's the reason, why most HA sorcs need and want subclasses so badly.... they want their old power back.

RedTalon · May 21

The patch will improve everything for me guileless and such so no effect on what I do in the game

Iselin · May 21

frogthroat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

You obviously haven't played a Sorc HA build yourself. That build, while very good for solo play, has never been anywhere near the top.

Well, there was a short period of time when it was at the top. Just when Oakensoul came, before it was nerfed, for a couple of months HA Oakensorc dominated. It was ridiculously broken.

Even then, it was never at the top. The difference today before subclassing on a trial dummy is ~ 95K vs. 145K for a meta 2-bar sorc... Some "fake one-bar" builds (No Oakensoul with back bar used for slotting "either bar" buffs) bring it up to ~ 105.

Not even close to the top and much less than the 15% less that "handicapped" players should be capped at according to a couple of posts in this thread based on the "logic" that people with no legs shouldn't run.

KekwLord3000 · May 21

Im pretty down for the subclassing, a bit sad that they basically killed AB and Pillagers and Pearls but I guess keeping those as is would literally cook the game.
Anyways back to the sub classing, quite excited cause of the dps increase for very little rotation changes, healers being able to yoink stuff from other classes same for tanks basically negating all the "slave" dps slots and with pillagers being essentially dead and assuming dds stick to meta we can drop alkosh or ec (or both?) and then even less need for support dds so overall group dps will only increase. Tanks with the ability to literally take the tankiest lines from the best classes will make them survive even better lowering the difficulty for prog groups.
So while true it will lower the difficulty in harder content, it will push people that were afraid to endgame and help endgame progs achieve their progs even fast which is an absolute win.
For whomever plays only 1 class and won't even attempt the system and cries about nerfs, so what? if you aren't ready to adept to meta you are 99% aren't and endgame pvp/pve player therefore even if a class got a slight 5% nerf it won't effect anything as overland is *** easy. The only ones who got the nerf hammer are the stamdens but there are probably like 5 of them in the entire game. So tbh after many L's from zos this is a W patch for sure.

Iselin · May 21

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

... while only holding the left mouse button to deal high damage.

LMAO, this crap again? HA builds still have 6 things to cast in between the HA spam. The rotation is [skill 1] [HA], [skill 2 [HA}], etc.

Iselin · May 21

Lalothen wrote: »

Not since lightning staff got the crap nerfed out of its AoE ability - but having a capable HA Sorc in-group is not a handicap.

That's why you use Power Overload instead of the Atronach for AOE-heavy fights. At least, I do.

Elvenheart · May 21

daemondamian wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

What Subclasses did you try?

barney2525 · May 21

I'm just gonna wait a month for the 'recommendation' videos to show what works and what doesn't

ApoAlaia · May 21

Elvenheart wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

What Subclasses did you try?

As far as I can discern from the links provided one is sorc/necro and the other sorc/warden

ADarklore · May 21

kurbbie_s wrote: »

then how is being able to use the same skills any different than changing the class youre playing? Doesnt make sense to me.

Because I can change them on the SAME character- I don't have to have 18 alts anymore. One of the reasons I've never gotten past the main base game is because I kept trying to find something that was consistently fun on ONE character. This game has YEARS of content, and the thought of spending thousands of hours each on 18 characters makes me ill to even think about... especially since, I get bored so easily being stuck with just ONE skill set. With Subclassing, any time I get bored on my main with the skills I'm using, I can swap builds- which means swapping entire class lines... and I won't lose my quest progression and have to go through ALL the same quests with another alt character. I might actually be able to complete all the storylines on a single character... so yeah, that's the difference.

Also, have any of you seen the new trailer? Because, as I stated before, ESO has been moving towards "Skyrim with Friends" and subclassing pushes it that direction in a major way. At the end of the trailer it even says, "Play alone or with friends."

RobZha · May 21

The thing that's bothering me is the possible combinations that could make chars overpowered tanky. I hope the devs don't nerf the base classes if this happens and they instead nerf the combinations if they're out of hand. For instance if two skill lines cause issues with either the skills, passives or both, then reduce their power only when combined with one or more other skill lines that cause the problems. If they don't do this and instead nerf the base classes that's going to cause huge problems.

At first I wanted to dump one of my templar skill lines for a warden one but now I've started using it so might just leave that char as it is. If it gets nerfed though because of some combination with another skill line from another class then trying to have any chance of keeping up with other players at all is probably going to be a nightmare.

I saw someone in another thread not long ago suggest that they're trying to nudge us in this direction and that base class nerfs would be part of this or something related. I hope that's not the case.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · May 21

My RP guilds have had several conversations about it and everyone is very excited, but until it drops on live, there's nothing more to really talk about.

Roleplay doesn't happen on the PTS (nor should it, that's for testing mechanics) so you can go there to figure out how well your theme build matches your character identity (now that it's not hamstrung by arbitrary classes) and maybe solve some theoretical problems with said theme build, but that's really it. Most people are excited in my RP communities not because there's a lot to say but there is a lot to do, and there's not really a reason to do it on the PTS except to test and see if it's possible/sensible.

As an aside, I do have confidence that subclassing CAN be balanced, though. I'm a tank player and right now the number of (balanced) options is making me salivate (including remaining pure class; my Necro could remain pure class if she wanted and still be a better tank after the changes; alternatively I am considering subclassing her for RP theme so her ingame skills match her in-universe capabilities). Part of the issue with DPS balance is that 10k DPS difference is seen as a lot - even if it's the difference between 150k and 160k, while 150k already clears most content just fine. Even the difference between 40k and 50k is just the difference between "so slow the tank falls asleep" and "so slow the tank falls asleep" (just kidding).

daemondamian · May 22

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

What Subclasses did you try?

As far as I can discern from the links provided one is sorc/necro and the other sorc/warden

Yes that's correct. I also rebuilt my other 12 characters too and on one kept Siphoning as the Nightblade skill and subbed in Gravelord and Storm Calling but I just realised I could have done that for one of my sorcs too.

Ragnarok0130 · May 22

gc0018 wrote: »

People who don't play PTS are talking a lot while the PTS players are silent. I guess it means the subclassing is generally boring after several days.

You should go to the PTS section because they’re talking a lot and most of it is negative.

sarahthes · May 22

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

I think most people agree that there should be builds that are catered to those players like you and that they should be strong, I think the core issue a lot of people have is that they feel their high apm sweaty build should do like 10 -15% more damage than your low apm build bcs they are doing more work. Currently in eso this is not true and there is no real payoff or reward for playing the high apm builds or classes

Like I have no issue with the beam-canist or the heavy attack sorc type builds doing 100k but what I don’t like is that if I sweat really hard on a way more intense class… I also do 100k. That feels bad

Sweats (not you, specifically, but in general) are going to have to finally wake up and realize that there’s a trend away from weaving and animation canceling, and it’s on purpose. It was a bug that became a feature, and it’s the Achilles heel of the game. First came U35, which significantly lowered the contributions of light attacks to your overall DPS, then came Oakensoul and the Arcanist class, and now we’re going to allow any character to have whatever non-sweaty setup they want. I’m thinking 2 the sorc pets, the arc buff-and-beam, and the NB assassination passives should make a pretty killer one-bar build with minimal sweat. Weaving is dying, and everyone needs to come to terms with that. The direction of the game is very clear in this regard.

As long as ult gen, high damage proc sets, and the most broken passive buff in the game continue to proc off of light attacks, weaving isn't going anywhere.

In this screenshot, 2 arcanists light attacked before beaming on the engage. This one light attack actually meant they got an entire extra ultimate compared to the other arcanists. I'll let you figure out which two light attacked and which ones didn't.

Twohothardware · May 22

Skinnycheeks is doing a live stream right now breaking down all the classes by tier for subclassing. A lot of good info.

Elvenheart · May 22

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

What Subclasses did you try?

As far as I can discern from the links provided one is sorc/necro and the other sorc/warden

daemondamian wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

What Subclasses did you try?

As far as I can discern from the links provided one is sorc/necro and the other sorc/warden

Yes that's correct. I also rebuilt my other 12 characters too and on one kept Siphoning as the Nightblade skill and subbed in Gravelord and Storm Calling but I just realised I could have done that for one of my sorcs too.

Wow, I totally missed that there were actually links embedded in that or I could have looked myself! Thank you all for the info! 🤪

Vulkunne · May 22

I wouldn't say it has sucked the life out of ESO, I mean there are several other things actively doing that like Rush of Agony and Ball groups. While I don't think subclassing should have been their first move, it is my hope that this can right a few wrongs, which I think it will.

icapital · May 22

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I belong to two very large guilds...for the most part everyone is excited...

everyone's excited just a small naysayer group

xylena_lazarow · May 23

icapital wrote: »

everyone's excited just a small naysayer group

Yeah, PTS is still lively even with no more changes coming, this is the big change a stale game needed.

RealLoveBVB · May 23

icapital wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I belong to two very large guilds...for the most part everyone is excited...

everyone's excited just a small naysayer group

Interesting, that just a small group of naysayers caused several thousand answers, like never ever before after an big update reveal.

daemondamian · May 23

Elvenheart wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

What Subclasses did you try?

As far as I can discern from the links provided one is sorc/necro and the other sorc/warden

daemondamian wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

I was excited at first because I've long been bored of playing my sorc.... but so far I've been able to come up with decent builds utilizing subclassing (that also fit my playstyle and preferences) for every class I currently have a character of EXCEPT sorc. So. That's cool.
I'm sure I'll still have fun with it somehow (especially since I don't even bother with PvP since the tragic removal of 4v4v4 BGs), but I would have preferred class change tokens or something of the like.

I remade my sorc main & 2nd sorc character on the pts though for solo pve content.

Have only just tested them out on normal Bloodroot Forge but has so far been fun to play and more than they are right now on live as pure sorcs.

What Subclasses did you try?

As far as I can discern from the links provided one is sorc/necro and the other sorc/warden

Yes that's correct. I also rebuilt my other 12 characters too and on one kept Siphoning as the Nightblade skill and subbed in Gravelord and Storm Calling but I just realised I could have done that for one of my sorcs too.

Wow, I totally missed that there were actually links embedded in that or I could have looked myself! Thank you all for the info! 🤪

No worries, hope you find some inspiration to experiment with new and different build combinations for your sorc/s

sleepy_worm · May 23

Here's the final tier-list, if you're curious. You can watch the VOD if you want, or just wait for the upcoming YT video that will explain the top 10 picks in a more streamlined fashion.