2 Bars Swapping putting me off game

Red_Feather · May 21

Buffs being something you just toggle on and off would be amazing.

I really liked how in Everquest 2 I could have buffs that lasted permanently, but they reserved mana. So my total mana got lowered the more buffs I kept active.

fizzylu · May 21

Sylosi wrote: »

Swapping weapons isn't really the problem with ESO, after all you swap weapons in plenty of games (shooters, some ARPG, other MMOs like New World, GW2, etc). However the endless buffing in ESO (and therefore the amount of swapping that can sometimes entail) is indeed boring AF.

I wouldn't say it's boring, it's simply tedious and stupid. I've even seen new players that get tired of the combat and game real quick because of having to constantly reapply them.

It's even worse now that TTK is so much higher (mostly talking PvP) compared to some years ago. And it's funny because making buffs last longer would help so much with accessibility and with cases where the APM requirements is too straining for some without being game breaking.... yet here we are, having to reapply buffs 10+ times in one encounter.

Iselin · May 21

Red_Feather wrote: »

Buffs being something you just toggle on and off would be amazing.

I really liked how in Everquest 2 I could have buffs that lasted permanently, but they reserved mana. So my total mana got lowered the more buffs I kept active.

We have that with the Banner Bearer scribing skill that gives you 4 buffs on a toggle, that reduce your resource regen not the resource itself.

randconfig · May 21

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

THINK ABOUT THAT 25K > 130K from SKILL, that's WRONG.

Strongly disgree.

facts don't care about your feelings. you aint hitting 130k on 1 bar without buff stacking and dot stacking and this required HIGH skill and years of practice. Oh and what about weaving? Animation cancelling?

That's the point, it's more engaging and rewarding to play, instead of other MMOs where you just mindlessly stare at 3-5 rows of hotkey abilities and pop them off cooldown to fight something...

randconfig · May 21

Renato90085 wrote: »

game 90% pve meta is 1 bar sorc and arcanist so you not really must swap bar...

It's possible to do more DPS without 1 bar, but yes, it's strong and exists as an accessibility playstyle for players who are unable to use 2 bars.

Arcanist feels unintentionally easy to play though, as the beam clearly out performs all other Arcanist abilities/play-styles, and previous patch notes where they nerfed the beam have stated that their goal is to require slightly more complex ability rotation to get the same DPS. Though their nerf failed to actually incentivize doing a more complex rotation, people just got better at optimizing the beam damage, and banner bearer with crux generation made that even worse because you can consistently get full crux stacks during each beam channel, only having to not spam beam when you need to rebuff. So I guess it would be fine to leave this in game as another alternative for players that aren't able to adjust to 2 bars and light attack weaving, but they need to bring the 6 enemy max cap nerf from PTS to live, and they need to buff the other Arcanist abilities so this isn't the ONLY thing Arcanists can do. Oh and fix the Tentacular Dread + Inspiration bug that's been in the game since Arcanist was released.

Frayton · May 21

Gabriel_H wrote: »

It is technically possible to write an addon that would give a 1 to 10 key press for skills and display a skillbar on the UI, and auto swap to the backbar when pressing 6 to 10 (and either staying on that bar until 1 to 5 are pressed or immediately swapping back after the skill cast).

There would however need to clarification from @ZOS as to whether this would violate policy as it is a technically a macro - one key press to perform 2+ actions.

Wait, what?

kargen27 · May 21

I don't see ESO combat as being harder than WoW combat. It is different. If a player started with ESO and then after a couple of years switched to WoW they would think WoW is the harder combat style. Switching bars is treated as far as mechanics go like another skill. Just one button push in your rotation.

Renato90085 · May 21

randconfig wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

game 90% pve meta is 1 bar sorc and arcanist so you not really must swap bar...

It's possible to do more DPS without 1 bar, but yes, it's strong and exists as an accessibility playstyle for players who are unable to use 2 bars.

Arcanist feels unintentionally easy to play though, as the beam clearly out performs all other Arcanist abilities/play-styles, and previous patch notes where they nerfed the beam have stated that their goal is to require slightly more complex ability rotation to get the same DPS. Though their nerf failed to actually incentivize doing a more complex rotation, people just got better at optimizing the beam damage, and banner bearer with crux generation made that even worse because you can consistently get full crux stacks during each beam channel, only having to not spam beam when you need to rebuff. So I guess it would be fine to leave this in game as another alternative for players that aren't able to adjust to 2 bars and light attack weaving, but they need to bring the 6 enemy max cap nerf from PTS to live, and they need to buff the other Arcanist abilities so this isn't the ONLY thing Arcanists can do. Oh and fix the Tentacular Dread + Inspiration bug that's been in the game since Arcanist was released.

You reminded me...if op really need do 130k dps in Pve like he want do real hard thing he still need give up 1 bar,because Ha build lost aoe dmg so long and 1 bar can't use other set...

katanagirl1 · May 21

The combat has undergone some changes since the game was introduced. As mentioned previously, damage over time used to be more frequent (once per second instead of every two seconds) and ability duration timers used to be more similar. Now the timers for abilities are all over the place and it makes skill rotations more complex than they need to be, in my opinion. I don’t have an issue with bar swapping, since I ditched the necro that is, but feeling like I am killing time to restart some skills while having to reapply some too early is something that makes combat feel really clunky. I don’t understand why skills can’t be standardized with equal damage/effectiveness and timers across class lines and other skill lines, that seems like the foundation of balance to me. Combat rotations felt more natural before U35.

EDIT: clarification

SeaGtGruff · May 21

I find that most of the content in ESO can be soloed pretty easily without a two-bar rotation, without light attack weaving, and without potions, food/drink buffs, pets, and companions. Maybe not all world bosses, all normal dungeons, or vet dungeons-- but those are supposed to be group content, anyway. And yes, there are times when it's better to use a two-bar rotation and the other stuff I mentioned. But they really aren't necessary, especially if you're in a group rather than playing solo-- and even for soloing, they're optional most of the time.

If players want to use those things, that's fine; I'm not trying to argue against using them. But I get flabbergasted whenever I hear players who constantly use those things turn around and complain about them. The game doesn't force you to play any particular way, so if you aren't enjoying yourself by playing the game in whatever way you've been told to by other players, why not just stop letting other players dictate a playstyle to you and just play the game however you want?

Estin · May 21

This is a you issue, not the game. You can achieve over 100k DPS with a 1 bar arcanist with Velothi, Order's Wrath, and Deadly strike, all which are very easy to obtain. Arcanist has many essential buffs as passives just for having a skill slotted on any bar. You can use crit potions that you can use once every 45 seconds to gain the major crit buffs. All of arcanists skills have long 30 second timers. You only need to press ~10 keys per minute with 0 need to light or heavy attack. That's how dead simple the class is. You also have to make sure you're using the right dummy. If it doesn't have 21m HP and have Trial in its name, you're on the wrong one and will be doing at the very least half of your effective damage. Do some research before blaming the game.

Oakensoul is also competitive for PvP. There are plenty of builds out there that use it and can wipe the floor with many players. PvP just has a large skill gap that requires you to know how to play the game in order to stay alive long enough to win. Arcanist is also the #1 worst class to use in PvP. It has next to nothing going for it and relies heavily on proc sets like vateshran staff, maarselok, master's dual wield, and something like dragon's appetite, but those sets can be used on any other class and perform much better with them. Necro unironically miles better than Arcanist in almost every single way.

Estin · May 21

Renato90085 wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

game 90% pve meta is 1 bar sorc and arcanist so you not really must swap bar...

It's possible to do more DPS without 1 bar, but yes, it's strong and exists as an accessibility playstyle for players who are unable to use 2 bars.

Arcanist feels unintentionally easy to play though, as the beam clearly out performs all other Arcanist abilities/play-styles, and previous patch notes where they nerfed the beam have stated that their goal is to require slightly more complex ability rotation to get the same DPS. Though their nerf failed to actually incentivize doing a more complex rotation, people just got better at optimizing the beam damage, and banner bearer with crux generation made that even worse because you can consistently get full crux stacks during each beam channel, only having to not spam beam when you need to rebuff. So I guess it would be fine to leave this in game as another alternative for players that aren't able to adjust to 2 bars and light attack weaving, but they need to bring the 6 enemy max cap nerf from PTS to live, and they need to buff the other Arcanist abilities so this isn't the ONLY thing Arcanists can do. Oh and fix the Tentacular Dread + Inspiration bug that's been in the game since Arcanist was released.

You reminded me...if op really need do 130k dps in Pve like he want do real hard thing he still need give up 1 bar,because Ha build lost aoe dmg so long and 1 bar can't use other set...

It's been a while since I checked, but next patch you can easily hit 130-150k with the new HA mythic by doing nothing but holding left click and queueing ulfsild's once every 10 seconds. The game can't get any simpler than that.

Renato90085 · May 21

Estin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

game 90% pve meta is 1 bar sorc and arcanist so you not really must swap bar...

It's possible to do more DPS without 1 bar, but yes, it's strong and exists as an accessibility playstyle for players who are unable to use 2 bars.

Arcanist feels unintentionally easy to play though, as the beam clearly out performs all other Arcanist abilities/play-styles, and previous patch notes where they nerfed the beam have stated that their goal is to require slightly more complex ability rotation to get the same DPS. Though their nerf failed to actually incentivize doing a more complex rotation, people just got better at optimizing the beam damage, and banner bearer with crux generation made that even worse because you can consistently get full crux stacks during each beam channel, only having to not spam beam when you need to rebuff. So I guess it would be fine to leave this in game as another alternative for players that aren't able to adjust to 2 bars and light attack weaving, but they need to bring the 6 enemy max cap nerf from PTS to live, and they need to buff the other Arcanist abilities so this isn't the ONLY thing Arcanists can do. Oh and fix the Tentacular Dread + Inspiration bug that's been in the game since Arcanist was released.

You reminded me...if op really need do 130k dps in Pve like he want do real hard thing he still need give up 1 bar,because Ha build lost aoe dmg so long and 1 bar can't use other set...

It's been a while since I checked, but next patch you can easily hit 130-150k with the new HA mythic by doing nothing but holding left click and queueing ulfsild's once every 10 seconds. The game can't get any simpler than that.

but is one bar have enough aoe?I know new ha is good set,but op mean one bar and now really need 130k st only some hardmode skip mechanics(dsrhm 0 bridge??) but more is need quick aoe(LC Crystal/necro bridge)and ha not other set can run ,I think aoe still a problem for 1 bar done hardmode or trifectas
If we talking about easy hm,now,many hard mode can use one bar build clean..(KA/SS/and all old trial

Link_dead · May 21

There are good and bad issues with the bar swap mechanic.
I can't say it's a bad system...more like it's annoying for many people.

There are people, like me, that can't do it reliably, if at all.
Those of us with past concussions and now TBIs can have a hard time.
If it's just simple EXPing where there is no fast pace required I can sort of 2 bar with buffs on back bar.
Fast paced battles that require effective swap mechanics to succeed....forget it....not happening.

I like the game. It has a ton of great stuff.
That's the only reason I am still here.
I did take a couple years break early on due to jerk and hater attitudes toward those "incompetent, lazy people who refuse to learn bar swapping." And "Ya, they ruin the game for us real players!" Those are real comments I was seeing in game.

I returned from that break to see how the game was doing.
The elitist attitudes toward bar swap were gone. At least I wasn't seeing it any more.
I pretty much don't group. My TBI caused brain-burps can make some people all crybaby.
I will say people have become more tolerable of that now. I give a heads up so they expect potential burps.
Still, some of the more difficult things were a bit annoying to do.
Just as I was about to quit for good ZOS saved the day for me with the Oaken ring.
Now I can do many things I previously could not.
The game is fun again.

Bar swapping was a big hindrance to my fun.
Oaken ring fixed that for me.
If you can't 2 bar effectively and the game seems a bit annoying to play then try Oaken builds.
There is a lot to do in ESO.
That ring will open up more stuff for you to succeed in doing.

Danikat · May 21

I've never used the two bars the way some people do, with a main bar and a back/buff bar with only passive skills. I have two different weapons, with relevant skills for each on their bar, and only swap between them when I want to swap weapons. Usually that's a ranged weapon and a melee one.

Probably my DPS isn't as high as it could be if I was maintaining 5 different passive buffs at all times, but that does sound like far more hassle to manage and what I'm doing works for most of the game because it's rare you actually need your best possible DPS.

One option is to use the armoury to make a secondary 'fun' build or 'chill' build or however you want to think of it which you use outside of trials or PvP or whatever you do where you need top DPS, so at other times you can play without having to constantly juggle skills.

Link_dead · May 21

whitecrow wrote: »

I like it because I can use different weapons depending on whether I want to be in close combat or at a distance.

If I use bar swap that's what I do.
When "in the face" is more than I can handle I can swap to ranged and step out of the heat.
Of course, without a tanking Companion or group mates that doesn't work so well.

shadyjane62 · May 21

The only time I use bar swap is when I do dragons. I use the bottom bar to keep purify on slot one to cleanse.

Can't be bothered to use more than five skills.

Imperial_Archmage · May 21

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

I've played mmos since GW1/WoW, And as much as I love the World and Quests of ESO, the combat truly ruins the game for me. I can't manage 2 bars, it feels horrible, I hate having to keep swapping weapon to constantly non stop re apply 10 second buffs etc, it feels like most time in combat is just bar swapping and re applying... the most awful combat I've ever had in an MMO, It's literally such a high skill ceiling it's just made for the few people who have IQ 1000 and can manage it as the only game they play 18 hours a day. I've got and used the Oak Ring, but it's not competitive at alll in PVP and in PVE it limits your dmg too much, I play arcanist and feel like you're forced to use specific abilities for the crux builder and spender so limits my 1 bar more. Why was the game ever made to be like this?

The ONLY reason for the bar swapping is to accommodate console players who use a controller. That’s it, period, end of story. It feels horrible when you play on a PC with a mouse and keyboard because it’s not natural and contrary to how every other MMO plays.

Personally, I got the Oakensoul Ring as soon as it came out and it has not left my finger since then, at least on my main who is a Sorcerer which is by far the best class for one bar builds. For other classes I go out of my way to create a build that does not require constant bar swapping.

Artim_X · May 21

Onebar arcanist can be spicy in PvE, just build for heavy attacks with sergeant's mail and noble duelist. Can even slot every DPS arcanist skill and maybe replace one skill for an arcanist heal. It's thematic and functional if you maintain a consistent rotation.

Onebar in PvP can work, especially as support. Have a burst heal, stun, major expedition, spammable, and maybe another dps skill or heal over time. The ultimate can be a support skill for more survivability or something spicy.

Play how you want.

acastanza_ESO · May 21

Gabriel_H wrote: »

It is technically possible to write an addon that would give a 1 to 10 key press for skills and display a skillbar on the UI, and auto swap to the backbar when pressing 6 to 10 (and either staying on that bar until 1 to 5 are pressed or immediately swapping back after the skill cast).

There would however need to clarification from @ZOS as to whether this would violate policy as it is a technically a macro - one key press to perform 2+ actions.

No. Absolutely not.Don't do this, don't try to do this. This would be cheating.

Dino-Jr · May 21

I like the bar swapping quite alot for many builds, the rythm is something I enjoy now that I learned it. Its especially nice to be able to have two different kinds of weapons and their related skills. Lets me get access to gameplay that feels dramatically more dynamic than it would be otherwise. I can run a 2H with critical charge and use that to close distance, lay down two dots then switch to double dagger and attack from close. Switch back gap close to next enemy group and continue. Or I can use a bow for openers etc. skill requirement isnt high.

Its also not something I always use for all builds. I think the important thing to remember here is there an absurd # of ways to play without it and just to use one bar with or without oakensoul if for w/e reason you dont want to swap at all. Game is highly playable that way. This kinda stuff is super accessible and works fine for 90% of the games content https://hyperioxes.com/eso/solo/one-bar-stamina-warden-build

That said limiting yourself to one bar sometimes means giving up some really fun options and mixes of weapon skills/ranges of combat. Or even just simple useful things like more defensive options on back bar and offensive front bar. Or setting your backbar such that all the skills are the same besides the weapon skill so you can situationally attack with a bow. You dont have to frantically swap between bars to use the back bar effectively.

I think ESO's combat is excellent. Its more mobile/interactive and less static or cooldown based than most games I have played. The combat is the main reason I play and enjoy the game and im definitely not a expert player. The only thing I want to change about it is for ESO to add more enemy impact animations. To me thats all thats missing really.

Adaarye · May 22

kargen27 wrote: »

I don't see ESO combat as being harder than WoW combat. It is different. If a player started with ESO and then after a couple of years switched to WoW they would think WoW is the harder combat style. Switching bars is treated as far as mechanics go like another skill. Just one button push in your rotation.

WoW ended some addons and they've added a one button rotation.

They've also added player housing.

ImmortalCX · May 22

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

I've played mmos since GW1/WoW, And as much as I love the World and Quests of ESO, the combat truly ruins the game for me. I can't manage 2 bars, it feels horrible, I hate having to keep swapping weapon to constantly non stop re apply 10 second buffs etc, it feels like most time in combat is just bar swapping and re applying... the most awful combat I've ever had in an MMO, It's literally such a high skill ceiling it's just made for the few people who have IQ 1000 and can manage it as the only game they play 18 hours a day. I've got and used the Oak Ring, but it's not competitive at alll in PVP and in PVE it limits your dmg too much, I play arcanist and feel like you're forced to use specific abilities for the crux builder and spender so limits my 1 bar more. Why was the game ever made to be like this?

I remember when I first started, it was difficult.

You MUST remap the swap to a side or top button on your mouse. Then it will become second nature. Having to hunt for a keyboard key is not reliable.

SilverBride · May 22

I hate bar swapping and don't do it, except for the times I want my Dragonknight and Nightblade to used a ranged attack for enemies I don't want to be close to, like Dragons for example. So I keep a bow on my back bar for that reason. But I do not ever switch back and forth during combat.

I hate the wheels, too because they remind me of bar swapping and feel very awkward to me.

valenwood_vegan · May 22

I don't really like constant buff-management either so most of my 36 characters use an oakensoul build and it's fine. I've completed all but the absolute most difficult content in the game (and I'm not very interested in that level of content anyway) and I'm frequently carrying the group when I'm in a group. Sure one might technically be able to get a bit better dps with a bar-swapping meta build, and I'm sure some do, but in real situations I out-dps most folks on my "inferior" build because I understand my class and I understand mechanics. I have an oakensoul build that does quite well in cyro and bg's too. I hate to say it... but just gotta put some time in and L2P. Find what works for you, instead of copying this week's FOTM build. Like any game really.

TaSheen · May 22

I'm not a combat fan at all. A LOT of that in this game has to do with bar swapping. I enjoyed combat in WoW and RIFT - because it was all on the keyboard, including Shift/Control/Alt keys - for a touch typist of many decades, that was simplicity itself.

Bar swapping just interrupts the combat flow for me in this game. One of many reasons I'm not happy..... And buff management is SO not fun....

Amottica · May 22

I have played this game with various people who have issues with the movement of their hands. One has Parkinsons. Each were able to adapt to playing this game and the person with parkinsons was able to heal vet trials.

It is a matter of the player finding what works for them. This also includes devices that work well such as an MMO mouse with 12 buttons on the side (start getting used to one row at a time). a

Further, there are one-bar builds which are best with the Oakensoul Ring that provides some buffs to minimize the number of skills that are needed. This does pretty good but is not something one should expect to be meta.

Good luck and hope you figure out what works for you.

Amottica · May 22

Elvenheart wrote: »

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Between Subclassing and Scribing I think there's a few ways to really minimize this, getting essential buffs passively and from using skills you'd use anyhow. In PvP Oakensoul forces you into 1 role - dd, tank, or heal - where you can pull off 2 roles with 2 bars. But, lots of people have had luck with Mighty Chudan Monster Set, like lots, which gives Resolve passively. Take Arc's passive Brutality and NB's passive Savagery, that's the 3 basic essential buffs passively. Slot skills with passive effects, like Flare in the Support Line, and use Scribing to get buffs with some of your basic attacks. (I cant recommend Vault or Smash yet tho sadly)

Conversely however these things also reward stacking tons of various 4 second long effects and such pushing you further from the meta. But if you're new that doesnt really matter at all.

Thats the problem with ESO though isnt it which no other MMO suffers from, ESO is all about buffs buffs buffs, No ot her mmo i've played is completely build around buffs and set bonuses like this. hell in FFXIV theres 1 set and no speccing lol, your class is set skills, set spec, set gear.

That’s the beauty with ESO though isn’t it which no other MMO features, ESO is about building around buffs and set bonuses. In other MMOs there sometimes is only one set, no speccing, just class skills and set gear. How boring! 🥱

This is so spot on. The beauty of ESO is what sets it apart from what is essentially cookie-cutter build MMORPGs. Yes, I have played WoW, FF, and other MMORPGs that are very similar, and I liked them. It is great and refreshing to have something different. Granted, I have some friends who were challenged letting go of what they were used to, but the ones that stayed enjoy this game.

kargen27 · May 22

Adaarye wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I don't see ESO combat as being harder than WoW combat. It is different. If a player started with ESO and then after a couple of years switched to WoW they would think WoW is the harder combat style. Switching bars is treated as far as mechanics go like another skill. Just one button push in your rotation.

WoW ended some addons and they've added a one button rotation.

They've also added player housing.

one button rotation sounds more boring than Tales of Tribute.

Iselin · May 22

Adaarye wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I don't see ESO combat as being harder than WoW combat. It is different. If a player started with ESO and then after a couple of years switched to WoW they would think WoW is the harder combat style. Switching bars is treated as far as mechanics go like another skill. Just one button push in your rotation.

WoW ended some addons and they've added a one button rotation.

And in typical Blizzard fashion, they seem to give you something but not really. As soon as you press that button, the global cooldown is increased by an additional 0.6s.