Official Discussion Thread for "Meet the Character—Wormblood"

ZOS_Kevin · May 16

This is the official discussion thread for, "Meet the Character—Wormblood"

"Discover sinister suspicions about the secretive successor to the King of Worms in this Meet the Character."

metheglyn · May 16

Interesting! I've been chatting in another thread about the hows and whys of the revitalized worm cult, and here we have some hints and clues.

Syldras · May 18

Thanks for the article!

metheglyn wrote: »

Interesting! I've been chatting in another thread about the hows and whys of the revitalized worm cult, and here we have some hints and clues.

It has been an interesting discussion so far, indeed. I'm curious how many of our ideas and predictions are true, and whether we might get some more info about all this before June 2 - and what new info there'll be in the new story content.

metheglyn · May 18

Same here. I haven't yet purchased the new content yet, though. I had intended to wait, but our discussion and the Wormblood article got me more interested in the possible story.

Syldras · May 18

metheglyn wrote: »

Same here. I haven't yet purchased the new content yet, though. I had intended to wait, but our discussion and the Wormblood article got me more interested in the possible story.

To be honest, the forum speculations usually make me more curious about new story content than official news articles. Those aren't bad, but the forum discussions just go deeper (naturally, a short news piece can't have that scope) and lead to so many ideas and questions... I just hope we won't be disappointed!

metheglyn · May 18

Yeah, oftentimes forum posters bring up points and ideas I wouldn't have considered, and almost always know more about the lore than I do, so I find myself thinking about the stories in different ways. Not too much longer until we can see the first part of the story, at least (technically I guess we can now, but I never go on PTS).

Syldras · May 19

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, oftentimes forum posters bring up points and ideas I wouldn't have considered, and almost always know more about the lore than I do, so I find myself thinking about the stories in different ways. Not too much longer until we can see the first part of the story, at least (technically I guess we can now, but I never go on PTS).

Although it sometimes leads to disappointment because users make up extremely detailed concepts (I especially tend to overcomplicate, I know that) while what had actually been the idea was just some "good vs. evil world-ending threat" story without a much deeper background.

I can still remember how for Greymoor I imagined we could choose sides and join the vampires, or how the parallel realities theme of Necrom would let us enter portals to see Tamriel in a different state, based on important moments in Tamriel's history not having happened or having happened differently (like being teleported to a Vvardenfell town full of Chimer because daedra worship was never given up, there was never a Tribunal, and Azura never cursed the Chimer to become Dunmer).

metheglyn · May 19

I suppose you could look at it as overcomplication, but I'd rather view it as imagination unrestricted by the sheer mundanity of technical and genre limitations. It might not be feasible for the game, but it is a lot of fun to think about.

I, too, was hoping Ithelia's return would pitchfork us into parallel realties of all types and thus give us a better idea of why, exactly, we might not want her to stick around with all her powers (or hey, maybe we would if we liked the other paths). But the limitless nature of "all possible realities" would be really, really hard to represent in game. And because it's an MMO and everyone has to end up with the same basic world state in the end...well, that tends to narrow focus to the extreme.

And, yeah, it does lead to disappointment. In Gold Road, I wanted Ithelia's presence to have me slipping into other versions of Tamriel, and instead I got Leramil shouting "proxy, proxy, proxy" in my ear. Too bad she didn't get stuck in a different reality.

Syldras · May 20

metheglyn wrote: »

But the limitless nature of "all possible realities" would be really, really hard to represent in game. And because it's an MMO and everyone has to end up with the same basic world state in the end...well, that tends to narrow focus to the extreme.

I'm well aware of that, but I think that technically, there would have been possibilites to at least give the player an illusion of this.

Just like they opened these portals to Ithelia's "throne room" which was slightly different in different realities, we could have gone through a portal to, let's say, a Dwemer city that has not become a ruin yet and where the Dwemer never vanished. Or not even a whole city, but just one single interior, like someone's home for example, where we would meet a living Dwemer we could talk a few words to until we're sent back. Or a portal could have led us to Ald Sotha, undestroyed, where we would have come across a certain young noble and inventor, and his sister, blissfully unaware of what happened in a different reality.

So many possibilies, really. They could have sent us across time, space and dimensions and just given us a small glimpse into it. Just one room and a bit of dialogue, no need to build much around it. I really thought of something like that when I played through the prologue and all lorebooks there literally were of the time when different cultures were just transitioning from Daedra worship to a different belief. I thought they'd show us exactly that: Realities in which this never happened and how different the cultures developed because of that.

But alas, they had different plans.

metheglyn · May 20

I agree they could have done something more with the idea of different realities and I wish they would have. Something other than that part of the quest where we got thrust into the "nothing world" that would exist if we let Ithelia stick around (the one where we "lost" Gadayn--at least, I think it's that part of the quest). There are a lot of "what if" situations I would love to see. Side note: I doubt they're ever going to give us any Dwemer interactions. That seems to be a topic they prefer to leave firmly in the mysterious category. Pity.

I think they do a really good job of setting up storylines and possibilities, with all the hints and teasers they bestow on us, and then the follow-up just doesn't live up to those hints and teasers. Like this article about Wormblood (and other meet the characters articles before) intrigues me and stirs my interest in a plot point I don't really care about (the return of the Worm Cult). I think, based on previous experiences, I'm bound to be disappointed in what we actually get, but I still hold out a bit of hope for the story that could be.

Syldras · May 20

metheglyn wrote: »

Like this article about Wormblood (and other meet the characters articles before) intrigues me and stirs my interest in a plot point I don't really care about (the return of the Worm Cult). I think, based on previous experiences, I'm bound to be disappointed in what we actually get, but I still hold out a bit of hope for the story that could be.

I still think it's Mannimarco. He's a tall male Altmer, only whispers, wears a mask, has the Staff of Worms, acquires something we know Mannimarco wants to possess very much in the prologue,...

And to be honest, I'd like this even better than I'd like some mysterious relative we've never heard a word about just pulled out of the hat now because some confidant to Mannimarco is needed for the story. Which wasn't a new technique, but,... I'm not a big fan of it.

metheglyn · May 20

In general, I don't like deus ex machina plot points either. I think I'll like the story best if it is Mannimarco. That would be satisfying to me and certainly more plausible than sudden secret leader. If it is him, that makes me actually worried for the fate of a certain mage.

Though I do wonder about the Staff of Worms. Regardless of who Wormblood is revealed to be, how did they get that staff? I don't recall that there was any mention of it made during the main quest after we beat Mannimarco and Molag Bal yoinks him to Coldharbour for his transgressions. Seems weird that we would have just left it there, so I guess I have to assume it went with him to Coldharbour and then.... Or maybe it's a fakey lookalike staff to match the fakey lookalike Mannimarco known as Wormblood.

Syldras · May 20

metheglyn wrote: »

In general, I don't like deus ex machina plot points either. I think I'll like the story best if it is Mannimarco. That would be satisfying to me and certainly more plausible than sudden secret leader. If it is him, that makes me actually worried for the fate of a certain mage.

Yes, indeed. It's much more horrible to imagine that than just some random cultist having interest in removing the head of a group for power reasons. It did catch my attention that he wasn't just killed like the other one...

metheglyn wrote: »

Though I do wonder about the Staff of Worms. Regardless of who Wormblood is revealed to be, how did they get that staff? I don't recall that there was any mention of it made during the main quest after we beat Mannimarco and Molag Bal yoinks him to Coldharbour for his transgressions. Seems weird that we would have just left it there, so I guess I have to assume it went with him to Coldharbour and then....

Yeah, I've been wondering about that too when I read the Wormblood article. Where did that thing go? I really can't remember, it's been a few years since I last played the main quest.

metheglyn wrote: »

Or maybe it's a fakey lookalike staff to match the fakey lookalike Mannimarco known as Wormblood.

Since the anniversary event, everyone has one anyway. It's the trendy conversation piece at Telvanni parties right now. I mean the Staff of Worms. Fake Mannimarco will probably drop at the crown store, too, at some point. Who doesn't want their own King of Worms lookalike in their entrance hall, dining parlour or bedr... I mean bathroom.

It can wash hair, can't it? I still need a new servant for that.

metheglyn · May 20

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In general, I don't like deus ex machina plot points either. I think I'll like the story best if it is Mannimarco. That would be satisfying to me and certainly more plausible than sudden secret leader. If it is him, that makes me actually worried for the fate of a certain mage.

Yes, indeed. It's much more horrible to imagine that than just some random cultist having interest in removing the head of a group for power reasons. It did catch my attention that he wasn't just killed like the other one...

The other one ran towards danger rather heedlessly, didn't he? Started whacking on a thing not knowing all about it, and then kaboom. Not that the Worm Cult wouldn't have killed him if they had the chance; there were no trickster daedra waiting to lure him into a portal that I recall. Maybe I'll give the prologue another run-through today.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Though I do wonder about the Staff of Worms. Regardless of who Wormblood is revealed to be, how did they get that staff? I don't recall that there was any mention of it made during the main quest after we beat Mannimarco and Molag Bal yoinks him to Coldharbour for his transgressions. Seems weird that we would have just left it there, so I guess I have to assume it went with him to Coldharbour and then....

Yeah, I've been wondering about that too when I read the Wormblood article. Where did that thing go? I really can't remember, it's been a few years since I last played the main quest.

I suppose it's possible it could have been retrieved from somewhere at some point by someone (a solution I don't like because it's vague and skirting too close to 'a wizard did it' territory).

In my first playthrough of the main quest, my character chose to release Mannimarco from his shackles, so I'm going to go ahead and think that he wandered around Coldharbour until he found his staff and then escaped because he's powerful and wily and if the prophet could do it, so could he.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Or maybe it's a fakey lookalike staff to match the fakey lookalike Mannimarco known as Wormblood.

Since the anniversary event, everyone has one anyway. It's the trendy conversation piece at Telvanni parties right now. I mean the Staff of Worms. Fake Mannimarco will probably drop at the crown store, too, at some point. Who doesn't want their own King of Worms lookalike in their entrance hall, dining parlour or bedr... I mean bathroom. It can wash hair, can't it? I still need a new servant for that.

Lol, dare I ask what happened to your previous hair-washing servant? Perfect role, by the way, for inevitable houseguest Mannimarco.

Syldras · May 20

metheglyn wrote: »

The other one ran towards danger rather heedlessly, didn't he? Started whacking on a thing not knowing all about it, and then kaboom. Not that the Worm Cult wouldn't have killed him if they had the chance; there were no trickster daedra waiting to lure him into a portal that I recall.

Most of all I think if they had the intention so kidnap that one, too, they would have ensured to be able to capture him alive.

metheglyn wrote: »

In my first playthrough of the main quest, my character chose to release Mannimarco from his shackles, so I'm going to go ahead and think that he wandered around Coldharbour until he found his staff and then escaped because he's powerful and wily and if the prophet could do it, so could he.

Yeah, I freed him, too. I had my reasons.

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, dare I ask what happened to your previous hair-washing servant? Perfect role, by the way, for inevitable houseguest Mannimarco.

Well, he... just left. Maybe he joined a cult or something. If I'm lucky, it was the Wormcult and he'll return when he hears that his Master is now washing my hair - then I have two of them, isn't that nice?! Oh... I... just hope he's not calling himself Wormblood now

metheglyn · May 20

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In my first playthrough of the main quest, my character chose to release Mannimarco from his shackles, so I'm going to go ahead and think that he wandered around Coldharbour until he found his staff and then escaped because he's powerful and wily and if the prophet could do it, so could he.

Yeah, I freed him, too. I had my reasons.

I think I've read your reasoning in another post somewhere: making him mix with those he despises being a better punishment than what he was going through.

My reason was rather petty: that character hates the Daedric Princes and so if he gets a chance to spite them and the situation warrants it, he does it. Molag Bal wanted Mannimarco chained up, so he released him.

Other of my characters have left him writhing, but they're not the exalted main character, so their choices don't count.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, dare I ask what happened to your previous hair-washing servant? Perfect role, by the way, for inevitable houseguest Mannimarco.

Well, he... just left. Maybe he joined a cult or something. If I'm lucky, it was the Wormcult and he'll return when he hears that his Master is now washing my hair - then I have two of them, isn't that nice?! Oh... I... just hope he's not calling himself Wormblood now

Best of luck with that scenario!

Syldras · May 20

metheglyn wrote: »

I think I've read your reasoning in another post somewhere: making him mix with those he despises being a better punishment than what he was going through.
My reason was rather petty: that character hates the Daedric Princes and so if he gets a chance to spite them and the situation warrants it, he does it. Molag Bal wanted Mannimarco chained up, so he released him.
Other of my characters have left him writhing, but they're not the exalted main character, so their choices don't count.

I'm really curious how they'll explain Mannimarco's escape for those playthroughs where he was not freed by the player character. Or whether "a wizard did it". (In case you're wondering, that wizard was me

In every playthrough. Everywhere. Remember my name: Master Syldras of Tel Galen. Well, not the old Tel Galen at Zafirbel Bay. That tower became too small for my household; it didn't even have a basement to store... important things. Like wine. Or kidnapped individuals in fancy "furnishing vaults".)

metheglyn wrote: »

Best of luck with that scenario!

And so, after having escaped his dreadful fate as the hair-washing servant of the evil (but also very magnificent) Telvanni Wizard Lord Syldras, the young Altmer Larildur arrived at the local Worm Cult nest...

metheglyn · May 20

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think I've read your reasoning in another post somewhere: making him mix with those he despises being a better punishment than what he was going through.
My reason was rather petty: that character hates the Daedric Princes and so if he gets a chance to spite them and the situation warrants it, he does it. Molag Bal wanted Mannimarco chained up, so he released him.
Other of my characters have left him writhing, but they're not the exalted main character, so their choices don't count.

I'm really curious how they'll explain Mannimarco's escape for those playthroughs where he was not freed by the player character. Or whether "a wizard did it". (In case you're wondering, that wizard was me In every playthrough. Everywhere. Remember my name: Master Syldras of Tel Galen. Well, not the old Tel Galen at Zafirbel Bay. That tower became too small for my household; it didn't even have a basement to store... important things. Like wine. Or kidnapped individuals in fancy "furnishing vaults".)

So that's what that furnishing vault is for!

Also, I would bet they would explain his escape about as well as they explained Lyris and Sai showing up after being the chosen companion to be sacrificed. "Something something, not sure what happened, something something, here I am." So, considering that, I'm all for it being the work of Master Syldras of Tel Galen.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Best of luck with that scenario!

And so, after having escaped his dreadful fate as the hair-washing servant of the evil (but also very magnificent) Telvanni Wizard Lord Syldras, the young Altmer Larildur arrived at the local Worm Cult nest...

Poor, poor Larildur. Of course, depending on the Worm Cult's pitch, he might think it a step up from hair-washing duties.

Syldras · May 20

metheglyn wrote: »

So that's what that furnishing vault is for!

It houses up to 500 people which is more than the Telvanni Council Hall in Sadrith Mora. Maybe we should just hold our future meetings in the furnishing vault instead.

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I would bet they would explain his escape about as well as they explained Lyris and Sai showing up after being the chosen companion to be sacrificed. "Something something, not sure what happened, something something, here I am." So, considering that, I'm all for it being the work of Master Syldras of Tel Galen.

Looks like we need another petition to ZOS, in addition to the one for more "Galerion and Mannimarco have been tragic lovers" background lore

What do you think, Bosmer? @ArchangelIsraphel (yes, another thread)

metheglyn wrote: »

Poor, poor Larildur. Of course, depending on the Worm Cult's pitch, he might think it a step up from hair-washing duties.

Or maybe he'll gladly return "home" after a week because having to do the laundry of 50 unwashed necromancers, including Bretons from the famous necromancers' hideout in the sewers of Wayrest, isn't quite the improvement he had hoped for...

In any way, Wormblood does need some background story, though. He can't just fall from the sky. Levitation magic isn't invented yet, after all.

metheglyn · May 20

Syldras wrote: »

It houses up to 500 people which is more than the Telvanni Council Hall in Sadrith Mora. Maybe we should just hold our future meetings in the furnishing vault instead.

But does it have the requisite pomp?

Syldras wrote: »

Looks like we need another petition to ZOS, in addition to the one for more "Galerion and Mannimarco have been tragic lovers" background lore What do you think, Bosmer? @ArchangelIsraphel (yes, another thread)

Signed on both counts!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Poor, poor Larildur. Of course, depending on the Worm Cult's pitch, he might think it a step up from hair-washing duties.

Or maybe he'll gladly return "home" after a week because having to do the laundry of 50 unwashed necromancers, including Bretons from the famous necromancers' hideout in the sewers of Wayrest, isn't quite the improvement he had hoped for...

In any way, Wormblood does need some background story, though. He can't just fall from the sky. Levitation magic isn't invented yet, after all.

Maybe he can be the official inventor of levitation magic!

So I ran through the prologue quest again, and right before Merric smashed the reaper, Mezzama had him in some sort of spell hold (that he broke free from) and then when she noped out through her portal, she muttered something about a dead person's image being no use to her. I assume the spell was to allow her to take on Merric's appearance to get to the Earthforge to do whatever she was doing there (was she doing more than just killing guild members and sucking their souls into reapers?).

That made me wonder: does her image-stealing ability only work if the person is still alive? Or did she mean she couldn't use a dead person's image because word would have got out the person was dead? Does word travel that fast in Tamriel?

But to get back to the Wormblood/Mannimarco of it all: it seemed pretty clear the Worm Cult was doing all this to curry favor with Molag Bal. Considering how his last partnership with Molag Bal ended up, would Mannimarco cozy up to him again? If he did want to be on terms with Molag Bal again, that could be a reason for disguising himself as Wormblood, since it's unlikely M.B. would want to knowingly work with Mannimarco, not after the whole "gonna make you kneel to me as your new god" plan. And then of course, would this bid to be back on M.B.'s crew just be a deception plot for revenge?

Also, in this playthrough, I found all the chat we've had about Galerion made me feel less annoyed by him. I also do like his updated appearance--he looks more polished and more like the greatest mage in Tamriel should look.

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

But does it have the requisite pomp?

Depends on how we decorate the interior. That it is a completely illogical magic box surely comes in handy. If we remove only one person, we have free space for 1000 chandeliers.

metheglyn wrote: »

That made me wonder: does her image-stealing ability only work if the person is still alive? Or did she mean she couldn't use a dead person's image because word would have got out the person was dead? Does word travel that fast in Tamriel?

I understood it only works on living people. Also, if a remaining corpse would be the problem... she could just eat it. That's the way the Bosmer resolve all kinds of problems, I heard.

metheglyn wrote: »

But to get back to the Wormblood/Mannimarco of it all: it seemed pretty clear the Worm Cult was doing all this to curry favor with Molag Bal. Considering how his last partnership with Molag Bal ended up, would Mannimarco cozy up to him again? If he did want to be on terms with Molag Bal again, that could be a reason for disguising himself as Wormblood, since it's unlikely M.B. would want to knowingly work with Mannimarco, not after the whole "gonna make you kneel to me as your new god" plan. And then of course, would this bid to be back on M.B.'s crew just be a deception plot for revenge?

Possible.

A different possibility I'm thinking about is whether Wormblood might not be Mannimarco, but the whole story is about bringing back Mannimarco somehow. If he's still stuck in Coldharbour in one way or another, it would certainly be easier to rescue him if you can move there freely and without Molag Bal becoming suspicious. So it's possible that Wormblood is upholding the facade of a Molag Bal worshipper just for that.

Which then again leads to the question: Who is Wormblood and why did he appear all of a sudden? If he's indeed not Mannimarco himself, I'm not sure whether any explanation would really be satisfying to me. If he cares that much for Mannimarco, why did was he never mentioned before anywhere? I really hope he'll be interestingly written at least, and not just a throwaway character.

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, in this playthrough, I found all the chat we've had about Galerion made me feel less annoyed by him. I also do like his updated appearance--he looks more polished and more like the greatest mage in Tamriel should look.

I suspect he only has shorter hair now because longer hair would clip through his new clothes. It's a common problem especially among mages; although I'm personally not sure whether I'd ever cut my hair just so it fits some new robe I bought... Not even if it was a really expensive one made from rare Argonian Naka-Desh leather, adorned with gold embroidery, emeralds and sapphires... What was I talking about?

Nah, seriously, I think especially his new robe looks good (I'm sure it will turn up in the crown store later, because obviously not even Tamriel's greatest mage is allowed to look unique), but in a way I found it surprisingly dark?

Another thing that just came to my mind is how calm he is even after, well, a certain event. Does he know what awaits him? Or is it just facade again?

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But does it have the requisite pomp?

Depends on how we decorate the interior. That it is a completely illogical magic box surely comes in handy. If we remove only one person, we have free space for 1000 chandeliers.

Lol! Bonus, it would be really well-lit.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But to get back to the Wormblood/Mannimarco of it all: it seemed pretty clear the Worm Cult was doing all this to curry favor with Molag Bal. Considering how his last partnership with Molag Bal ended up, would Mannimarco cozy up to him again? If he did want to be on terms with Molag Bal again, that could be a reason for disguising himself as Wormblood, since it's unlikely M.B. would want to knowingly work with Mannimarco, not after the whole "gonna make you kneel to me as your new god" plan. And then of course, would this bid to be back on M.B.'s crew just be a deception plot for revenge?

Possible.

A different possibility I'm thinking about is whether Wormblood might not be Mannimarco, but the whole story is about bringing back Mannimarco somehow. If he's still stuck in Coldharbour in one way or another, it would certainly be easier to rescue him if you can move there freely and without Molag Bal becoming suspicious. So it's possible that Wormblood is upholding the facade of a Molag Bal worshipper just for that.

Which then again leads to the question: Who is Wormblood and why did he appear all of a sudden? If he's indeed not Mannimarco himself, I'm not sure whether any explanation would really be satisfying to me. If he cares that much for Mannimarco, why did was he never mentioned before anywhere? I really hope he'll be interestingly written at least, and not just a throwaway character.

Yeah, Wormblood's identity, if not done right, has the potential to be a great let-down. I like the idea that, if he's not Mannimarco, he's devoted to him/his interests and I could possibly buy no one knowing about him because he kept himself secret owing to that allegiance, and waiting for the proper time to reveal himself. But that has its own logic problems.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, in this playthrough, I found all the chat we've had about Galerion made me feel less annoyed by him. I also do like his updated appearance--he looks more polished and more like the greatest mage in Tamriel should look.

I suspect he only has shorter hair now because longer hair would clip through his new clothes. It's a common problem especially among mages; although I'm personally not sure whether I'd ever cut my hair just so it fits some new robe I bought... Not even if it was a really expensive one made from rare Argonian Naka-Desh leather, adorned with gold embroidery, emeralds and sapphires... What was I talking about?

Nah, seriously, I think especially his new robe looks good (I'm sure it will turn up in the crown store later, because obviously not even Tamriel's greatest mage is allowed to look unique), but in a way I found it surprisingly dark?

Another thing that just came to my mind is how calm he is even after, well, a certain event. Does he know what awaits him? Or is it just facade again?

Yeah, the long hair does get in the way of the fanciest robes, but I like the way this shorter hair doesn't hang in his face as much as the longer style did. I took a character to the mage's guild to look at his old style right after seeing him in his new style, and his old look really doesn't do him justice. That lank hair, those dull robes...of course, he probably doesn't have a personal hair-washer (another reason for a shorter 'do).

I did find myself wanting his new robes, but perhaps they're only for the guild master. Gabriele's new robes are nice, but not as nice, so I suspect that's the version that will show up in the crown store.

He is calm, but I put that down to him perhaps not knowing the full extent of it? He hasn't heard of Wormblood, after all. Also, he sounded more annoyed by his capture than worried. Like it's just a small snag. So maybe he is putting on an act because why not? He may be the greatest mage, but he's no Sotha Sil, who has a calmness borne of a certainty of the way events will transpire.

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

Bonus, it would be really well-lit.

Depends on how spacious it is. Logically, it must be a door to some daedric pocket realm anyway. How else would you be able to stack 500.000 Alinor windmills inside it?! I'm really curious now whether that item has some lore text.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, Wormblood's identity, if not done right, has the potential to be a great let-down. I like the idea that, if he's not Mannimarco, he's devoted to him/his interests and I could possibly buy no one knowing about him because he kept himself secret owing to that allegiance, and waiting for the proper time to reveal himself. But that has its own logic problems.

To be honest, there are a few possibilities I'd really dread. Mostly things that would not fit the established characterizations of the characters involved. To some degree, a surprising fact about a character's past is still believable and can broaden the view; but if it sounds too far-fetched, the credibility suffers.

metheglyn wrote: »

I took a character to the mage's guild to look at his old style right after seeing him in his new style, and his old look really doesn't do him justice. That lank hair, those dull robes

The design indeed seemed dull and not very elegant. I mean, he's no Telvanni, so a slightly uncouth impression is not unexpected,... but even for that, he looked rather bland.

metheglyn wrote: »

of course, he probably doesn't have a personal hair-washer

Another proof of the superiority of Great House Telvanni over the Mages Guild.

metheglyn wrote: »

He is calm, but I put that down to him perhaps not knowing the full extent of it? He hasn't heard of Wormblood, after all. Also, he sounded more annoyed by his capture than worried. Like it's just a small snag. So maybe he is putting on an act because why not? He may be the greatest mage, but he's no Sotha Sil, who has a calmness borne of a certainty of the way events will transpire.

Especially if I'd think of myself as superior and flawless - in earnest - I might find it worrying if someone would be able to kidnap me. Because it would show that I have failed once.

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Bonus, it would be really well-lit.

Depends on how spacious it is. Logically, it must be a door to some daedric pocket realm anyway. How else would you be able to stack 500.000 Alinor windmills inside it?! I'm really curious now whether that item has some lore text.

Perhaps it and the crafting bag use the same magic or portal to that pocket realm. Or maybe everything gets shrunk down when placed inside, a la Clockwork City.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, Wormblood's identity, if not done right, has the potential to be a great let-down. I like the idea that, if he's not Mannimarco, he's devoted to him/his interests and I could possibly buy no one knowing about him because he kept himself secret owing to that allegiance, and waiting for the proper time to reveal himself. But that has its own logic problems.

To be honest, there are a few possibilities I'd really dread. Mostly things that would not fit the established characterizations of the characters involved. To some degree, a surprising fact about a character's past is still believable and can broaden the view; but if it sounds too far-fetched, the credibility suffers.

Yeah, I agree with that. I'm trying to think of a plausible reason why Mannimarco would have set up a secret heir, so to speak. He never struck me as someone who believed his plan would fail and would need a back-up. Then again, he does seem like a wily super-planner. Mostly, it's just the level of trust involved in this secret heir that I wonder about.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He is calm, but I put that down to him perhaps not knowing the full extent of it? He hasn't heard of Wormblood, after all. Also, he sounded more annoyed by his capture than worried. Like it's just a small snag. So maybe he is putting on an act because why not? He may be the greatest mage, but he's no Sotha Sil, who has a calmness borne of a certainty of the way events will transpire.

Especially if I'd think of myself as superior and flawless - in earnest - I might find it worrying if someone would be able to kidnap me. Because it would show that I have failed once.

True, and I suppose since his staff projection wasn't going to necessarily seen by only us (who have seen him in less than flattering circumstances before), he would really want to convey a certain calmness.

Also, I love your unflagging propaganda for...er, devotion to House Telvanni.

ArchangelIsraphel · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

Looks like we need another petition to ZOS, in addition to the one for more "Galerion and Mannimarco have been tragic lovers" background lore What do you think, Bosmer? @ArchangelIsraphel (yes, another thread)

*pries the teakettle off of foot and stumbles into the thread, clanking slightly*

Ahem.

+1 for the "Galerion and Mannimarco have been tragic lovers" plot!

I've been a huge fan of the idea for a tragic romance between Mannimarco and Galerion ever since you first mentioned it to me. I feel like the way they're entwined in the story practically lends itself to such a plot. Hell, there is even this: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms which, when you read it, you could kind of interpret it as two former lovers battling it out (Perhaps by a stretch of the imagination, but still. There's some tension in the subtext and no one can convince me otherwise now

) I want to see flashbacks of them when they were young and in love, before everything went wrong >.>;

I'm...totally not going to be writing fanfiction about this. No, not at all. Not even a little bit >.>; scurries away with a pen and a notebook.

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps it and the crafting bag use the same magic or portal to that pocket realm.

Do the "assistants" work the same way? You mean, I'm not actually stuffing five sacks of flour, three cheese wheels, 139 loaves of bread and a greenhouse into a cat?

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I agree with that. I'm trying to think of a plausible reason why Mannimarco would have set up a secret heir, so to speak. He never struck me as someone who believed his plan would fail and would need a back-up. Then again, he does seem like a wily super-planner. Mostly, it's just the level of trust involved in this secret heir that I wonder about.

The question is: Has he set him up? Or does Wormblood have his own motivations?

metheglyn wrote: »

True, and I suppose since his staff projection wasn't going to necessarily seen by only us (who have seen him in less than flattering circumstances before), he would really want to convey a certain calmness.

I'm still slightly irritated we can't actually catch or pick up the staff when he tells us to protect it, by the way

At least I stepped forward expecting to be able to grab it in that moment.

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I love your unflagging propaganda for...er, devotion to House Telvanni.

Certainly; my loyalty to my glorious House will never waver.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I'm...totally not going to be writing fanfiction about this. No, not at all. Not even a little bit >.>; scurries away with a pen and a notebook.

If you have any lore questions, need info on moral corruption or the mindset of an elven youth deciding to dabble with occultism, feel free to message me. Oh, and of course I might possibly be interested in the result... if you don't mind sharing it.

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Perhaps it and the crafting bag use the same magic or portal to that pocket realm.

Do the "assistants" work the same way? You mean, I'm not actually stuffing five sacks of flour, three cheese wheels, 139 loaves of bread and a greenhouse into a cat?

Ezabi has her own tricks, fragrant employer.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I agree with that. I'm trying to think of a plausible reason why Mannimarco would have set up a secret heir, so to speak. He never struck me as someone who believed his plan would fail and would need a back-up. Then again, he does seem like a wily super-planner. Mostly, it's just the level of trust involved in this secret heir that I wonder about.

The question is: Has he set him up? Or does Wormblood have his own motivations?

That's the thing, isn't it? An intriguing premise either way, though if I was going to bet on it, I'd go for Mannimarco having set him up. I would think, too, that if you agree to be a secret heir, you're working your own angle at least in part.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

True, and I suppose since his staff projection wasn't going to necessarily seen by only us (who have seen him in less than flattering circumstances before), he would really want to convey a certain calmness.

I'm still slightly irritated we can't actually catch or pick up the staff when he tells us to protect it, by the way At least I stepped forward expecting to be able to grab it in that moment.

When he told me to protect the staff, I was like, "You got it!" I did move to grab it, but I couldn't, and Skordo and Gabriele were just standing there narrating what just happened, and I said, "Uh, guys, the staff." For a moment, I actually thought they were going to ignore it, but then Gabriele hustled over and told me I was too stupid to pick it up, so I'd better leave it to her. And since my character is a stamina dragonknight who doesn't really do magic, he said, "Sure, whatever."

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

*pries the teakettle off of foot and stumbles into the thread, clanking slightly*

Ahem.

+1 for the "Galerion and Mannimarco have been tragic lovers" plot!

I've been a huge fan of the idea for a tragic romance between Mannimarco and Galerion ever since you first mentioned it to me. I feel like the way they're entwined in the story practically lends itself to such a plot. Hell, there is even this: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms which, when you read it, you could kind of interpret it as two former lovers battling it out (Perhaps by a stretch of the imagination, but still. There's some tension in the subtext and no one can convince me otherwise now ) I want to see flashbacks of them when they were young and in love, before everything went wrong >.>;

I'm...totally not going to be writing fanfiction about this. No, not at all. Not even a little bit >.>; scurries away with a pen and a notebook.

I'd like to see those flashbacks, too. I wonder what level of charming awkwardness there might have been to it, as neither one of them strikes me as ever having had a flair for the romantic or tender.

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

That's the thing, isn't it? An intriguing premise either way, though if I was going to bet on it, I'd go for Mannimarco having set him up.

It would make more sense than just some... whatever just appearing and deciding to resurrect Mannimarco (unless it's to enslave his soul and force him into service as a personal hair-washer, of course - but that would require a wizard of extraordinary power and we certainly would have heard of such a person before).

Especially the idea it might be someone from his family bothers me the most. Why would he still have family ties anyway, considering the fact that he's extremely old - and an infamous necromancer on top of that? Even if relatives would factually exist, they would probably not like to talk about being related to him (Could there be a bigger shame for Altmer nobles?), so younger family members would most probably not even know of that. And even if they knew, how would they have been able to get in contact with him? It's not like you can just look into the phone book and search for the number of the local Worm Cult lair. Let alone Mannimarco would probably not react kindly on such disturbances. Not even I would, and I'm a far less evil wizard.

I somehow reckon we might be overthinking the whole thing again.

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd like to see those flashbacks, too. I wonder what level of charming awkwardness there might have been to it, as neither one of them strikes me as ever having had a flair for the romantic or tender.

It doesn't necessarily have to be noticeable in public; some people rather keep that to themselves. Also, people might change a lot when they grow older, and especially after a relationship, maybe even the first one, ending miserably.

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's the thing, isn't it? An intriguing premise either way, though if I was going to bet on it, I'd go for Mannimarco having set him up.

It would make more sense than just some... whatever just appearing and deciding to resurrect Mannimarco (unless it's to enslave his soul and force him into service as a personal hair-washer, of course - but that would require a wizard of extraordinary power and we certainly would have heard of such a person before).

Especially the idea it might be someone from his family bothers me the most. Why would he still have family ties anyway, considering the fact that he's extremely old - and an infamous necromancer on top of that? Even if relatives would factually exist, they would probably not like to talk about being related to him (Could there be a bigger shame for Altmer nobles?), so younger family members would most probably not even know of that. And even if they knew, how would they have been able to get in contact with him? It's not like you can just look into the phone book and search for the number of the local Worm Cult lair. Let alone Mannimarco would probably not react kindly on such disturbances. Not even I would, and I'm a far less evil wizard.

I somehow reckon we might be overthinking the whole thing again.

Oh, we probably are, but I'm having fun doing so. I'm with you on the idea of the family connection--that seems to me the weakest possibility. Keeping in mind we only have deluded and likely not too bright cultists telling us about the family angle. It could be they were told that and they took it at face value or they're just lying because they're cultists.

And now I have to ask, because I understand House Telvanni has its own agenda that serves only House Telvanni: do you know where Mannimarco is?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd like to see those flashbacks, too. I wonder what level of charming awkwardness there might have been to it, as neither one of them strikes me as ever having had a flair for the romantic or tender.

It doesn't necessarily have to be noticeable in public; some people rather keep that to themselves. Also, people might change a lot when they grow older, and especially after a relationship, maybe even the first one, ending miserably.

I wasn't thinking about it being noticeable in public, because that wouldn't fit what I know of either of them, either. Just that younger people tend to be less adept at romance in general, and then of course the stereotype that really intelligent people whose minds are taken up with esoteric matters beyond the understanding of the general populace tend to be really bad at it. That's why I think it would be charmingly awkward. But maybe it wasn't that at all, and they had as little trouble with showing affection to one another as they did with rising to the top of their Psijiic class.

Syldras · May 21

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, we probably are, but I'm having fun doing so. I'm with you on the idea of the family connection--that seems to me the weakest possibility. Keeping in mind we only have deluded and likely not too bright cultists telling us about the family angle. It could be they were told that and they took it at face value or they're just lying because they're cultists.

I see. Now I suspect there is no tall, slender Altmer at all. It's just two Bosmer in a robe.

metheglyn wrote: »

And now I have to ask, because I understand House Telvanni has its own agenda that serves only House Telvanni: do you know where Mannimarco is?

Last time I saw him, he was bound to some... I don't even know what that was. He was swearing at me and I think I was intruding on something personal (maybe some weird Altmer meditation), so I decided to just leave him alone (nah, I already told you I freed him).

But seriously: I can assure you he's not in my bath tub, travel luggage or bed drawer right now. I regularly check them for spies and Bosmer who might have fallen in and don't manage to get out again, so I would have noticed if he was hiding there.

metheglyn wrote: »

I wasn't thinking about it being noticeable in public, because that wouldn't fit what I know of either of them, either. Just that younger people tend to be less adept at romance in general, and then of course the stereotype that really intelligent people whose minds are taken up with esoteric matters beyond the understanding of the general populace tend to be really bad at it.

As someone who has always been in relationships with individuals of outstanding intelligence and with a mind absorbed in esoteric matters, I can't confirm. And then there's no compulsory rule on how romance should look like anyway. Or maybe there is, but my mind is too absorbed in esoteric matters to have noticed yet

metheglyn · May 21

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, we probably are, but I'm having fun doing so. I'm with you on the idea of the family connection--that seems to me the weakest possibility. Keeping in mind we only have deluded and likely not too bright cultists telling us about the family angle. It could be they were told that and they took it at face value or they're just lying because they're cultists.

I see. Now I suspect there is no tall, slender Altmer at all. It's just two Bosmer in a robe.

metheglyn wrote: »

And now I have to ask, because I understand House Telvanni has its own agenda that serves only House Telvanni: do you know where Mannimarco is?

Last time I saw him, he was bound to some... I don't even know what that was. He was swearing at me and I think I was intruding on something personal (maybe some weird Altmer meditation), so I decided to just leave him alone (nah, I already told you I freed him).

But seriously: I can assure you he's not in my bath tub, travel luggage or bed drawer right now. I regularly check them for spies and Bosmer who might have fallen in and don't manage to get out again, so I would have noticed if he was hiding there.

Now I'm worried for all Bosmer who wander into the general vicinity of your home. If @ArchangelIsraphel goes missing, I know where to start looking!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wasn't thinking about it being noticeable in public, because that wouldn't fit what I know of either of them, either. Just that younger people tend to be less adept at romance in general, and then of course the stereotype that really intelligent people whose minds are taken up with esoteric matters beyond the understanding of the general populace tend to be really bad at it.

As someone who has always been in relationships with individuals of outstanding intelligence and with a mind absorbed in esoteric matters, I can't confirm. And then there's no compulsory rule on how romance should look like anyway. Or maybe there is, but my mind is too absorbed in esoteric matters to have noticed yet

Well, as someone who was extremely awkward about romance in my youth, I can confirm that it's possible.

I wasn't saying their romance definitely would have been like that, just that I could see it being like that. And stereotypes being what they are, and so forth. Well, anyway, if we ever do get any flashbacks of their youthful relationship, I'd be glad to see them in whatever form they took, even if they didn't end up showing anything romantic between them (though that would be a shame). I'm much more interested in these two characters than I ever have been before, and it's down to all this speculating we've been doing.