Solution To Dungeon Rushing

SpiritofESO · May 18

When this issue first started and I realized how much I disliked the dungeon racing and the fake tanks and fake healers, and I just did something about it of a personal nature.

I used the Armory system and created 10 different builds for my main character, who I love. I virtually never do random dungeons as a damage dealer anymore. Instead, I go as a tank, a real tank, or a healer, a real healer (that contributes to DPS).

I don't need 20 characters, I don't need 10 characters, as a matter of fact I found that concentrating all of your effort on a single main character is quite probably the best way to advance your character in this game.

So, if you don't like the way fake tanks are ruining dungeon runs or fake healers are ruining dungeon runs, then adjust your attributes, get the proper weapon and armor and skills and make yourself a real tank or a real healer or both and to a major extent you will be able to control the flow of the dungeon.

Orbital78 · May 18

kargen27 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Fake rolls exist because people want to cut to the front of the queue. It has nothing to do with what roles are needed and everything to do with players being selfish and not caring about others in the game.

Partially, they also speed up the queue. In my opinion you shouldn't "fake" it unless you can do it, but bad players are often faking which isn't cool. I think I can dps tank almost all of the DLC dungeons (Random Normal), is it harming anyone if I speed up the queue and complete the job, but just not in a traditional build? In general I avoid doing normal dungeons though, as I don't want to wait on quests so I leave the newer players to that. I tend to vet random as a healer or dps.

The root of the issue is a lack of support roles, or ZoS requiring them when they aren't needed.

I'm of the opinion if you can taunt and hold the bosses agro you aren't a fake tank. The fake tank either doesn't bother to taunt or dies almost immediately after taunting. Just taunting doesn't make you a good tank but at least you are doing the minimum.

As Sharp would say, "Skill issue"

Jaimeh · May 19

The solution to PUG problems is always to run with a premade--in an ideal world it shouldn't be the case and people should behave better, but in reality, PUGs will be PUGs. It's not just group dungeons, I've seen countless groups in BGs with people not doing the objectives and completely disregarding the rest of the group. I usually leave rushers to rush ahead, I'm not going to mash my fingers just to keep up.

Arcturus · May 19

kargen27 wrote: »

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

Opposite also applies. You are not entitled to waste a players time that has been in a queue because you want to skip the content they queued for. Always two sides and that is why what we have now doesn't work well.
You should not expect three other players to rush with you. The game unfortunately allows the inconvenience to only go one way.

I can't waste someone else's time if that person already plans to spend an entire hour doing a dungeon that takes 5 minutes. They are wasting mine. And faking roles exists not only to speed up a queue but because tank and healer arent even needed in most situations due to how easy the game is. Also, if you willingly get in queue, expect people to rush, that's what it's for. You want to go at turtle's pace then make your own group, don't queue with randoms that are not your friend.

DestroyerPewnack · May 19

Why is your need for taking things slow in a random group more important than my need for rushing content I've played thousands of times in a random group?

Random dungeons are not for exploration and immersion. They are for XP and transmute crystals. The faster one can get these things, the better.

If you want to take it slow, go in with a pre-made group, get a strong solo build and do it on your own, or hope the other 2 randoms agree with you, and initiate a vote to kick from the beginning. That way, the rusher can try again with a better group, with no time penalty, and you get to take all the time you like to complete your dungeon.

We don't need to re-visit this issue a million times. This system works perfectly fine.

Elsonso · May 19

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

zos have already provided solutions and implicit responses to this arguable problem:
vote-to-kick or quit options once in a group a player finds unsuitable.

guilds/friend lists with which to pre-group with like-minded players to remove the ambiguity of behaviour/objectives with randoms

an improved group finder where group parameters can be set (objective, type speed etc). It's not perfect and needs a sub-50th level filter but seems otherwise utilitarian.

an implementation of a 'join encounter in progress' which strongly implies zos favours groups clearing instances quickly, since the rate determining step is now always the lead (positionally in dungeon/furthest ahead) player.

No one uses the vote-to-kick option, especially not new players just getting into the game. This burden should not fall on new players, they should get to experience the content as it was designed, not have it forcibly skipped by speed runners.

Zos would appear to disagree: their implementation of the 'join encounter in progress' implies they are leaning in favour of faster throughput and clearing of instances. This 'feature' favours speed-runners over all else who are massively and arguably disproportionately enabled by it.

The 'join encounter in proress' mechanic' was inserted to solve the problem of group members getting locked out of the fight if they weren't within the boss arena when Johny-Couldn't-Wait decides to aggro the boss. Not to encourage dragging players ahead against their will.

Source?

edit: In any event, they must have realised and recognised the effect of this feature implementation and how it would be (ab)used in/by randoms. The implication of faster throughput/instance clearance by design remains conspicuously self-evident, even if it was not initially marketed as such.

I don't have the source but I do remember this being mentioned as the reason for the change. It's frustrating to be yanked away while opening a chest, but at least I don't miss the boss and the rewards because somebody else can't be bothered to wait a few seconds.

Ultimately, I think it was a "Fix" for the "stuck in combat" bug that frequently plagues dungeons where the mobs will chase through the whole place. In reality, what it means is that a fast runner who takes the lead can plow through the mobs and get through the doors before the rest of the party. After that, they force the dungeon to advance to where they are by engaging with the boss that is past the doors. It is a major benefit to the "solo dungeon, get group awards" players.

What it means for everyone else is that as soon as someone zooms off ahead, the rest of the players can hang out at the dungeon start until he or she is ready for the party to join them. If they are unworthy, the respawn point is right there and they will die and rejoin the party at the start. Or they will rage quit because no one followed them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Aliniel · May 19

For as long as dungeons are *** easy and people can solo them this will remain an issue. And the XP reward for random normal is absurdly high.

Why would I [1] do things slowly if I could just do it all alone fast without other people? Those other people are there only to enable those extra XP from the Dungeon Finder.

It's a flaw in the game design. Dungeons should never be so easy so you can solo them without effort. Not even normal ones. It's group content and should be scaled accordingly. But this has been an issue for so long I am confident to say: "ZOS does not care."

[1]: I don't do random dungeons. This is a hypothetical question.

Daoin · May 19

Arcturus wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

Opposite also applies. You are not entitled to waste a players time that has been in a queue because you want to skip the content they queued for. Always two sides and that is why what we have now doesn't work well.
You should not expect three other players to rush with you. The game unfortunately allows the inconvenience to only go one way.

I can't waste someone else's time if that person already plans to spend an entire hour doing a dungeon that takes 5 minutes. They are wasting mine. And faking roles exists not only to speed up a queue but because tank and healer arent even needed in most situations due to how easy the game is. Also, if you willingly get in queue, expect people to rush, that's what it's for. You want to go at turtle's pace then make your own group, don't queue with randoms that are not your friend.

how about this, before joining the random finder make just one premade group of four players choose one tank role and 3 damage roles and see if the dungeon lets you in queue as a group. use this as a starting point to understand what the queue is, then if knowingly lying to get yourself into a random group is not enough to tell yourself something then you are a lost cause anyway but it was never your fault really that the system of grouping could be manipulated so easily, such an easy work around was always going to be taken advantage of somehow by a certain group of eso players. people need to start reminding themselves a million times in the next few weeks these topics are old and are not needed anymore with the arrival of update 46 making everyone who likes it happy. there is no clear definition of role and class anymore, only mutations. and if this is everyones thing then everyone should finally be a group of happy campers when in queue, and since many had no choice in the matter options are simple, stay and enjoy or leave game. now is the time to start thinking star citizen new players there too would only be 12 years of early access behind why wait until full release ? or unless you enjoy forst person shooters you are going to be really hard pressed in finding anything better than update 46. now is a great time to join the eso community

BXR_Lonestar · May 19

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

One thing that has irritated the ever loving **** out of me since I started playing ESO is getting into a random normal dungeon and having one or more players rush to the final boss as fast as they can skipping multiple bosses and other content because "they have so many characters that they just NEED to run dungeons on." In the overwhelming majority of cases it winds up taking longer to skip content than to just do everything with the possible exception of Fungal Grotto I. Fungal Grotto II is fastest when EVERYTHING is completed and NOTHING is skipped. Proven every single time someone tries to skip content only for everyone to be left waiting at the final boss because someone forgot to complete the triggering sequence for the final boss to spawn.

Anywho...I have a solution suggestion that should fix this issue: make the bonus XP account wide so that no mater what character we use to run our random daily dungeon the bonus is awarded just the one time. This way no one will feel the need to bother with running multiple daily dungeons to get the bonus on as many characters as they can. Given account wise achievements it just makes sense to make the daily dungeon bonus account wide, too. Same for the daily battleground. One and done. No more frantic selfish players scrambling to run daily dungeons on 150 characters across 50 accounts.

This should also leave more time for players to focus on their favorite character once subclassing goes live.

I love this idea. ZOS - please make it happen. Thank you.

People aren't speed rushing dungeons for the double xp. They're speed rushing it because it's probably their 500th time doing the dungeon and there is no benefit in doing it again.

It may help slow people down if they made the dungeon quests repeatable so that players get a second currated drop for when you are trying to fill out your collection, but at some point - when you have filled out your set collections, there is simply no point in taking your time to go through the dungeon if you can burn it all down around you.

People just need to understand that there are many different players on very different levels of this game, and those people who are just running a dungeon to get their random done, or they're just trying to get their last few keys to be able to get an undaunted coffer don't want to take a half hour or more to crawl through a dungeon they've run 500 different times. Just like there are those who haven't collected everything out of Fungal Grotto I and they want to crawl through and kill every boss, look for chests, etc. The solution is for those players to find players on similar levels and run the dungeons with players on their own level so that neither group is interfering with eachother.

The problem is that if you use groupfinder or que in without a pre-made group, you lose control over what pool of players you are going to draw from. And at that point, you just have to accept what you get and go along with it.

Elsonso · May 19

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

People aren't speed rushing dungeons for the double xp. They're speed rushing it because it's probably their 500th time doing the dungeon and there is no benefit in doing it again.

I think they are rushing because they have 18 characters that they need to run through the dungeons and if they spend 15 minutes instead of 5 minutes (for example) it will take too long.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

It may help slow people down if they made the dungeon quests repeatable so that players get a second currated drop for when you are trying to fill out your collection, but at some point - when you have filled out your set collections, there is simply no point in taking your time to go through the dungeon if you can burn it all down around you.

The only way to slow them is by changing how the dungeons and rewards work. I don't expect that ZOS will be doing that.

If people are doing the dungeons on multiple character to get rewards from each character, then changing the reward structure to only give premium rewards to the first account attempt. The downside is that few people will be using dungeon finder, making it harder to get PUGs.

They can also change how rewards and dungeons function, requiring killing all the bosses, but this will increase time per dungeon. This will have similar results to dungeon finder if fewer players queue up.

They can try moving vanguard players back to the group if they get too far ahead. The reverse of the "joining encounter in progress". This is an antagonistic approach that I can't imagine will be popular.

Wuduwasa13 · May 19

Solution to dungeon rushing: make some friends, join a guild and set up your own group who share your play style instead of seeking to impose your preferences on randos in order to facilitate it for you.

Daoin · May 19

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Solution to dungeon rushing: make some friends, join a guild and set up your own group who share your play style instead of seeking to impose your preferences on randos in order to facilitate it for you.

whats the difference of new players joining a guild from the experience they should have rightfully got from a random ? alot of peoples friends lists are from random groups they fely comfortable doing random dungeons with and likely met them doing that in the past. when older players that are dungeon runners stop meeting new people on thier runs the dungeons become stale, rushing through them and fake roles added to the problem

Wuduwasa13 · May 19

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Solution to dungeon rushing: make some friends, join a guild and set up your own group who share your play style instead of seeking to impose your preferences on randos in order to facilitate it for you.

whats the difference of new players joining a guild from the experience they should have rightfully got from a random ?

There is no “rightfully” gotten experience from a random dungeon instance as it is precisely this randomness which one must surely expect when entering the queue. Precisely the contrary to an instance comprised of a guild or friend group which permits for you to enter into it in agreement of the experience you wish to facilitate and secure.

No different from any other random instances experience: trials, BG’s, ToT. Purely luck of the draw and outside of your control & without exception, yet somehow people here believe their exceptions are exceptional enough to merit petitioning zos to impose restrictions on other players in order to facilitate their preference because they simply too socially inept or bone idle to do the work themselves and organise what they want. Astonishingly entitled.

Daoin · May 19

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Solution to dungeon rushing: make some friends, join a guild and set up your own group who share your play style instead of seeking to impose your preferences on randos in order to facilitate it for you.

whats the difference of new players joining a guild from the experience they should have rightfully got from a random ?

There is no “rightfully” gotten experience from a random dungeon instance as it is precisely this randomness which one must surely expect when entering the queue. Precisely the contrary to an instance comprised of a guild or friend group which permits for you to enter into it in agreement of the experience you wish to facilitate and secure.

No different from any other random instances experience: trials, BG’s, ToT. Purely luck of the draw and outside of your control & without exception, yet somehow people here believe their exceptions are exceptional enough to merit petitioning zos to impose restrictions on other players in order to facilitate their preference because they simply too socially inept or bone idle to do the work themselves and organise what they want. Astonishingly entitled.

exactly, in part you are right. as an older player the only experience i require from a dungeon run was a little fun there where simply no rewards other than the fun of it that the dungeons had to offer that would have made me queue so often. i meet new people and some of the dungeons remain a challenge depending on experience of the group but remain fun to do. the way doing randoms ended was simply stale. subclassing was in part some of the factor on finally stopping doing them but having spent most of my time in random groups over the years the way they ended up coupled with update 46 has been the final nail in the coffin for everything eso related for me

Wuduwasa13 · May 19

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Solution to dungeon rushing: make some friends, join a guild and set up your own group who share your play style instead of seeking to impose your preferences on randos in order to facilitate it for you.

whats the difference of new players joining a guild from the experience they should have rightfully got from a random ?

There is no “rightfully” gotten experience from a random dungeon instance as it is precisely this randomness which one must surely expect when entering the queue. Precisely the contrary to an instance comprised of a guild or friend group which permits for you to enter into it in agreement of the experience you wish to facilitate and secure.

No different from any other random instances experience: trials, BG’s, ToT. Purely luck of the draw and outside of your control & without exception, yet somehow people here believe their exceptions are exceptional enough to merit petitioning zos to impose restrictions on other players in order to facilitate their preference because they simply too socially inept or bone idle to do the work themselves and organise what they want. Astonishingly entitled.

exactly, in part you are right. as an older player the only experience i require from a dungeon run was a little fun there where simply no rewards other than the fun of it that the dungeons had to offer that would have made me queue so often. i meet new people and some of the dungeons remain a challenge depending on experience of the group but remain fun to do. the way doing randoms ended was simply stale

To make a rather obvious comparison: if I join a pug trial via the group finder, I should not expect the same experience as to if I ran that trial with my prog team.

The same is true of dungeons. Sometimes it’ll be a marathon, other times a crawl. If people aren’t happy with this they can remove the uncertainty by organising a dedicated team.

Many people are in dungeons for different reasons: transmutes, xp burst to help level skills, farming gear drops etc.

If players want a slower & more meandering experience then they ought to be making the effort to arrange that for themselves.

Daoin · May 19

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Solution to dungeon rushing: make some friends, join a guild and set up your own group who share your play style instead of seeking to impose your preferences on randos in order to facilitate it for you.

whats the difference of new players joining a guild from the experience they should have rightfully got from a random ?

There is no “rightfully” gotten experience from a random dungeon instance as it is precisely this randomness which one must surely expect when entering the queue. Precisely the contrary to an instance comprised of a guild or friend group which permits for you to enter into it in agreement of the experience you wish to facilitate and secure.

No different from any other random instances experience: trials, BG’s, ToT. Purely luck of the draw and outside of your control & without exception, yet somehow people here believe their exceptions are exceptional enough to merit petitioning zos to impose restrictions on other players in order to facilitate their preference because they simply too socially inept or bone idle to do the work themselves and organise what they want. Astonishingly entitled.

exactly, in part you are right. as an older player the only experience i require from a dungeon run was a little fun there where simply no rewards other than the fun of it that the dungeons had to offer that would have made me queue so often. i meet new people and some of the dungeons remain a challenge depending on experience of the group but remain fun to do. the way doing randoms ended was simply stale

To make a rather obvious comparison: if I join a pug trial via the group finder, I should not expect the same experience as to if I ran that trial with my prog team.

The same is true of dungeons. Sometimes it’ll be a marathon, other times a crawl. If people aren’t happy with this they can remove the uncertainty by organising a dedicated team.

Many people are in dungeons for different reasons: transmutes, xp burst to help level skills, farming gear drops etc.

If players want a slower & more meandering experience then they ought to be making the effort to arrange that for themselves.

thats not true, of late it has been more than resonable to expect pug trials to run well even while prog groups in a guild are still learning the trial. but thats a story for trial runners. i am a dungeon runner. but half prog half pug teams dont mix to well i will agree on that

Wuduwasa13 · May 19

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Solution to dungeon rushing: make some friends, join a guild and set up your own group who share your play style instead of seeking to impose your preferences on randos in order to facilitate it for you.

whats the difference of new players joining a guild from the experience they should have rightfully got from a random ?

There is no “rightfully” gotten experience from a random dungeon instance as it is precisely this randomness which one must surely expect when entering the queue. Precisely the contrary to an instance comprised of a guild or friend group which permits for you to enter into it in agreement of the experience you wish to facilitate and secure.

No different from any other random instances experience: trials, BG’s, ToT. Purely luck of the draw and outside of your control & without exception, yet somehow people here believe their exceptions are exceptional enough to merit petitioning zos to impose restrictions on other players in order to facilitate their preference because they simply too socially inept or bone idle to do the work themselves and organise what they want. Astonishingly entitled.

exactly, in part you are right. as an older player the only experience i require from a dungeon run was a little fun there where simply no rewards other than the fun of it that the dungeons had to offer that would have made me queue so often. i meet new people and some of the dungeons remain a challenge depending on experience of the group but remain fun to do. the way doing randoms ended was simply stale

To make a rather obvious comparison: if I join a pug trial via the group finder, I should not expect the same experience as to if I ran that trial with my prog team.

The same is true of dungeons. Sometimes it’ll be a marathon, other times a crawl. If people aren’t happy with this they can remove the uncertainty by organising a dedicated team.

Many people are in dungeons for different reasons: transmutes, xp burst to help level skills, farming gear drops etc.

If players want a slower & more meandering experience then they ought to be making the effort to arrange that for themselves.

thats not true, of late it has been more than resonable to expect pug trials to run well even while prog groups in a guild are still learning the trial

As an authority on myself, I can categorically state that it is true that my expectation surrounding trial experiences should necessarily differ from that of group finder pugs to my end game prog team. I can’t speak to yours as I have no data on your teams competence vs the average pug, nor any idea as to the overall calibre of player on your server.

ZOS_Icy · May 19

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team