Solution To Dungeon Rushing

MidniteOwl1913

tincanman wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

zos have already provided solutions and implicit responses to this arguable problem:

• vote-to-kick or quit options once in a group a player finds unsuitable.
• guilds/friend lists with which to pre-group with like-minded players to remove the ambiguity of behaviour/objectives with randoms
• an improved group finder where group parameters can be set (objective, type speed etc). It's not perfect and needs a sub-50th level filter but seems otherwise utilitarian.
• an implementation of a 'join encounter in progress' which strongly implies zos favours groups clearing instances quickly, since the rate determining step is now always the lead (positionally in dungeon/furthest ahead) player.

No one uses the vote-to-kick option, especially not new players just getting into the game. This burden should not fall on new players, they should get to experience the content as it was designed, not have it forcibly skipped by speed runners.

Zos would appear to disagree: their implementation of the 'join encounter in progress' implies they are leaning in favour of faster throughput and clearing of instances. This 'feature' favours speed-runners over all else who are massively and arguably disproportionately enabled by it.

The 'join encounter in proress' mechanic' was inserted to solve the problem of group members getting locked out of the fight if they weren't within the boss arena when Johny-Couldn't-Wait decides to aggro the boss. Not to encourage dragging players ahead against their will.

Source?

edit: In any event, they must have realised and recognised the effect of this feature implementation and how it would be (ab)used in/by randoms. The implication of faster throughput/instance clearance by design remains conspicuously self-evident, even if it was not initially marketed as such.

I don't have the source but I do remember this being mentioned as the reason for the change. It's frustrating to be yanked away while opening a chest, but at least I don't miss the boss and the rewards because somebody else can't be bothered to wait a few seconds.

MidniteOwl1913

Speed runners are the other side of the queueing a fake coin. It shows utter disreagaurd for fellow players and kills the experiance.

I solo a dungeon if all I'm interested in is the final boss. If they can't do that and need the rest of the group then they are just using the others players, that's not fair. Again speed runners find all sorts of reasons why it's ok for them to use the other players but that doesn't make it so.

bmnoble

Just make the steps of the dungeon's quest required to complete the dungeon, only replacement group members are exempt from the requirements the group has already fulfilled on the run.

That and the XP bonus is for a lot of people secondary it is the transmute stones they want, move the transmute stone reward over to the daily pledges something like 10 transmutes for each of the base game pledges 20 for the DLC dungeon ones and double those amounts for vet difficulty.

kargen27

Orbital78 wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

they could allow us to use 3 companions to do solo random normals on our own and not need to do randoms with other players anymore. More ways to easily get transmutes at a 10-25 count rate that doesn't require PVP or ToT would be great.

That wouldn't work, companions stick with the boss and don't do mechs (and die a lot as a result). How are you and 3 companions going to do Unhallowed Grave at the litch boss, or the furnace room with those mechs?

I know, just spitballing as most of the topic here isn't viable either. Normal UG is soloable to begin with (I can't think of anything limiting off hand), the companions would just be fodder. But they would have to improve the companion AI or remove some of the limiting mechs.

More ways to get transmutes in general so people don't do random dungeons would be ideal, you'll have to wait longer but the behavior you don't want will go away some. Then again some people WANT this behavior too, so it is kind of depending on the player. Using the group finder or preforming is really the only option, as far as I can tell.

The game needs players to queue for random dungeons. The system was created to give players wanting to run a specific dungeon a way to fill their group. The transmutes and other rewards are an enticement to queue for a random. The answer to this problem is not to make random runs less appealing.

cuddles_with_wroble

I have done every dungeon like 5 thousand times and if you have a real pve build you like 1 shot everything in normal dungeons. You also gotta understand that a lot of people (esp pvpers) hate doing random normals and they only do them bcs you’re forced too. Doing random normals on 20 characters just so happens to be the best way to farm transmutes and scripts so it’s kinda incentivized behavior. Most people don’t wanna spend 10 min in a dungeon they have done 5 thousand times, and they esp don’t wanna spend 10 min per character for 20 characters

Juzz

bah, the best solution's to make the dungeon story quest repeatable, so, everyone needs to do it and no rush - profit

kargen27

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I have done every dungeon like 5 thousand times and if you have a real pve build you like 1 shot everything in normal dungeons. You also gotta understand that a lot of people (esp pvpers) hate doing random normals and they only do them bcs you’re forced too. Doing random normals on 20 characters just so happens to be the best way to farm transmutes and scripts so it’s kinda incentivized behavior. Most people don’t wanna spend 10 min in a dungeon they have done 5 thousand times, and they esp don’t wanna spend 10 min per character for 20 characters

And some are doing that dungeon for the first time. They want to experience that dungeon in full their first time. Group up with other PvP'rs that have run it 5000 times, queue for the random and off you go. No wait and whole group is happy. I'm not sure random dailies is the best way to get transmute for those that PvP. If I start running low I take all twenty characters to tier one in a thirty day campaign. Doesn't take long to resupply.
I still say players that speed run dungeons with random groups would do it if they had one character or twenty. They try and use the twenty as some kind of excuse.
Might be time for those that can one shot everything in normal to go ahead and jump up to vet levels.

Sarannah

kargen27 wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I have done every dungeon like 5 thousand times and if you have a real pve build you like 1 shot everything in normal dungeons. You also gotta understand that a lot of people (esp pvpers) hate doing random normals and they only do them bcs you’re forced too. Doing random normals on 20 characters just so happens to be the best way to farm transmutes and scripts so it’s kinda incentivized behavior. Most people don’t wanna spend 10 min in a dungeon they have done 5 thousand times, and they esp don’t wanna spend 10 min per character for 20 characters

And some are doing that dungeon for the first time. They want to experience that dungeon in full their first time. Group up with other PvP'rs that have run it 5000 times, queue for the random and off you go. No wait and whole group is happy. I'm not sure random dailies is the best way to get transmute for those that PvP. If I start running low I take all twenty characters to tier one in a thirty day campaign. Doesn't take long to resupply.
I still say players that speed run dungeons with random groups would do it if they had one character or twenty. They try and use the twenty as some kind of excuse.
Might be time for those that can one shot everything in normal to go ahead and jump up to vet levels.

Only once have I ever seen a speedrunner/fake role do actually good dps or one shot mobs, all the thousands of others I have encountered who speedran/fake role'd were absolutely terrible and only slowed the dungeonrun down as there were now three people in the group and not four. They spread all mobs around, they stuck us in combat in dungeons with doors, they die at bosses, do terrible dps themselves despite their meters telling them otherwise as they are the only one attacking mobs, they do not care about other players, won't let other players even pick up the quest before they start combat, tank bosses in suboptimal spots, etc. These players are not making the run faster, especially as I am a real tank. (Note: Me and the group are usually only one or two rooms behind the fake role/speedrunner while killing everything, and we could have been where they were at if we were killing with four. It's not faster!)

These players are usually terrible players, that try to justify their selfish behaviour in their own heads by 'believing' any lie they tell themselves. This way they do not have to face their own conscience.

PS: I have a new rule for myself: if a speedrunner pulls me into a boss fight, I do not taunt/buff/debuff/damage unless all the mobs following us are dead. Making that bossfight much slower for them. Some speedrunners have noticed me doing this, and all of a sudden stayed with the group after I did this. And unless they help kill those following mobs, I will sheath my weapons that entire boss fight. No taunt, no buffs, no debuffs, no damage. (If I do not get my dungeonrewards of heavy sacks and chests, you do not get my services and benefits.)

cuddles_with_wroble

kargen27 wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I have done every dungeon like 5 thousand times and if you have a real pve build you like 1 shot everything in normal dungeons. You also gotta understand that a lot of people (esp pvpers) hate doing random normals and they only do them bcs you’re forced too. Doing random normals on 20 characters just so happens to be the best way to farm transmutes and scripts so it’s kinda incentivized behavior. Most people don’t wanna spend 10 min in a dungeon they have done 5 thousand times, and they esp don’t wanna spend 10 min per character for 20 characters

And some are doing that dungeon for the first time. They want to experience that dungeon in full their first time. Group up with other PvP'rs that have run it 5000 times, queue for the random and off you go. No wait and whole group is happy. I'm not sure random dailies is the best way to get transmute for those that PvP. If I start running low I take all twenty characters to tier one in a thirty day campaign. Doesn't take long to resupply.
I still say players that speed run dungeons with random groups would do it if they had one character or twenty. They try and use the twenty as some kind of excuse.
Might be time for those that can one shot everything in normal to go ahead and jump up to vet levels.

Nobody plays in my time zone so the only way I can even get in dungeons is queuing as tank or waiting 6 hours until there’s people on.

I do think there should be some sort of story mode que for people who want that tho.

scrappy1342

kargen27 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

they could allow us to use 3 companions to do solo random normals on our own and not need to do randoms with other players anymore. More ways to easily get transmutes at a 10-25 count rate that doesn't require PVP or ToT would be great.

that defeats the purpose of why random queues were created. They were created to help players that want to run specific dungeons fill their group.

ffxiv has something like this. they call it a trust dungeon. although the companions that you get don't cost anything. you pick them up through the main questline (or you did when i last played 3+ years ago. i guess i will find out soon lol). this actually removes the need for ppl to queue for specific dungeons, because they can just run them themselves in trust mode. BUT... the ffxiv npc's that you run with are much more competent than eso companions. they know some of the mechanics and they do not do silly things like stand in aoe.

like others have said, the most practical thing to do for now would be to make a premade group with like minded ppl. even if you make it so that ppl only run the random once per day, they are STILL going to rush through just as quick as if they had 20 to do it on. most of the other things are just going to lengthen the queue.

Mathius_Mordred

Way to massively reduce the amount of play time in the game by the player base, nice one OP.

Desiato

Sarannah wrote: »

Only once have I ever seen a speedrunner/fake role do actually good dps or one shot mobs, all the thousands of others I have encountered who speedran/fake role'd were absolutely terrible and only slowed the dungeonrun down as there were now three people in the group and not four. They spread all mobs around, they stuck us in combat in dungeons with doors, they die at bosses, do terrible dps themselves despite their meters telling them otherwise as they are the only one attacking mobs, they do not care about other players, won't let other players even pick up the quest before they start combat, tank bosses in suboptimal spots, etc. These players are not making the run faster, especially as I am a real tank. (Note: Me and the group are usually only one or two rooms behind the fake role/speedrunner while killing everything, and we could have been where they were at if we were killing with four. It's not faster!)

These players are usually terrible players, that try to justify their selfish behaviour in their own heads by 'believing' any lie they tell themselves. This way they do not have to face their own conscience.

Most players who choose fake roles are often poor contributors for a couple of reasons.

In many cases they are using characters they power levelled in nbrp but then never got around to levelling skill lines or acquire skill points. They may still be wearing their lowbie training gear. It seems these players just don't care what anyone else thinks, period so they also barely try while they hold w.

However, the term 'fake' is highly ambiguous. To me, if someone can perform the basics of the role, they are not fake. When I tank a normal dungeon by slotting a taunt on a dd build because the dude with the tank role won't, I then become a real tank because I can hold agro, position the boss, heal myself and not die. And everyone in the group sure appreciates it.

Plus 4 parse arcs played skillfully can just obliterate most normal dungeons as long as someone taunts. I don't mind if a skilled player queues in as a tank or healer with a dd build as long as they taunt/spot heal. I don't ever feel that I need to be healed by another player in a dungeon pug, regardless of role, but the other players may need it and may rightfully expect it.

And also parse tanks and parse healers are simply better for high apm players in normal dungeons. They can perform the role exceptionally while adding a lot of damage. There are those who would call those fake, which is absurd because they check all the boxes. I think it may be humbling to some players to be out-parsed by the tank and/or healer but most players seem to love the smooth runs that come with them.

I speed run in the sense that I want to kill things and proceed as quickly as possible. I don't want to take a moment to appreciate the view. I clear everything in my path before moving ahead. I think it's unreasonable to loot every container, so I'm not waiting for others to do that. I will wait for quests and chests, and I wait at the boss for as long as the other players will let me unless someone is especially slow.

NoticeMeArkay

You could easily fix the issue if all bosses would only spawn when the previous one had been slayed.
And people wouldn't miss out on quests due to rushers, if those would progress get started automatically as soon as the first mob gets attacked.

kaushad

I don't rush dungeons for XP or transmute crystals. I'm usually looking for the boss reward drops and a lot of those are exclusive to the final boss.

I think that dungeon set weapons and motifs should drop from any boss. I suppose that the odds for the latter would have to be lowered. The monster masks only make sense dropping from the final boss.

This would mean that farmers would achieve their goals in those dungeons faster, so later, a lot of them just won't queue for them. But maybe that's for the best? Also we would be less sick of those dungeons if we could fill the sticker book with 11(?) visits instead of one weapon at a time.

Daoin

Soarora wrote: »

People are not running the dungeons for account experience. Random normal speedruns are for transmute. Thus, the reasonable thing to do is increase transmute rewards from dungeon pledges and trials.

this person is, me. for years i have dedicated my time to run random vets for a source of experience each day because without the experience there were no other rewards i needed from dungeons, my gripe is that now having nearly reached max exp doing this and watching the rather steep decline of enjoyment joining random groups that even if i stay through subclassing my main pass time in eso is completely gone anyway as ZOS explains that they want people to experience thier own idea of power fantasy, and have made subclassing as a player based request. which i personally do not need to experience really. for anyone else i truly hope they enjoy he fantasy, as for transmutes i already know im going to have too many at certain points anyway so no need for me to rush for those only to have to waste them making daggers to to transmute to nirn and deconstruct. do i care if i have 10 nirncrux or 100 in my bag ? i am afraid not. again though for years i tried to xplain to groups i was in that there was no point in me being in the dungeon if i cant enjoy it and for some reason, unknown did not enjoy killing everything and completing the dungeon properly in which time my word fell on deaf and deafer ears while more players that should not really be needing keys and transmutes anymore except for those ones falling into our laps just kept on joining randoms or pulling others into thier pre mades rather than just make thier own farming groups. at the time half of the random groups were still viable it was tolerable but when it became 9 out of 10 groups were no fun at all i guess i just gave up. the only fun in vet dungeons now is when i new dungeon is released and all the solo randomers dungeon pitch in to get the HM done within a day or a couple of days in thier groups which has also not been much of a challenge for some time now

mrreow

What I do usually is that I just do not heal people who are too far away from me

The reality is that all of ESO is PVP. You think you queue to cooperate and fight monsters. wrong. the biggest monsters are other players

If we could duel someone inside dungeon no one would get anything cleared, first corridor would change into a gladiator arena

Arcturus

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

Daoin

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

well that makes no sense at all looking out from which role you applied to join with, im healer you wait or you get no heals or i leave, im tank you simply wait or i leave, im dd you wait for both. There was just a general misunderstanding that being pulled into a premade group of 3 meant falling in line with anything those 3 expected, with any role. must say now maybe your right with update 46 due soon it does not really matter

Twohothardware

Join a Guild and look for a group for dailies. A lot of people like to group up for them instead of using the queue. You can also just solo the Dungeon yourself if you find the pace is too fast. The majority of normal dungeons are as easy as Infinite Archive. You can even bring your companion.

Daoin

cant remember the amount of times i was pulled into a random for someone to write 3 dd run and then to just have to hit the leave group button again astraight away. for me though even when it boiled down to healer or maybe use more pots than usual healers spot was always sealed

Arcturus

Daoin wrote: »

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

well that makes no sense at all looking out from which role you applied to join with, im healer you wait or you get no heals or i leave, im tank you simply wait or i leave, im dd you wait for both. There was just a general misunderstanding that being pulled into a premade group of 3 meant falling in line with anything those 3 expected, with any role. must say now maybe your right with update 46 due soon it does not really matter

You're assuming people need a healer/tank to clear content, they don't. Hence why faking a role exists. And if you're queueing for a recent dlc vet then you probably shouldn't take 30 years to press W.

Daoin

Arcturus wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

well that makes no sense at all looking out from which role you applied to join with, im healer you wait or you get no heals or i leave, im tank you simply wait or i leave, im dd you wait for both. There was just a general misunderstanding that being pulled into a premade group of 3 meant falling in line with anything those 3 expected, with any role. must say now maybe your right with update 46 due soon it does not really matter

You're assuming people need a healer/tank to clear content, they don't. Hence why faking a role exists. And if you're queueing for a recent dlc vet then you probably shouldn't take 30 years to press W.

i assume nothing when i enter a random queue except that my own role will play apart of it and if everone else is doing the same the dungeon will be fun, and near the end i began assuming i would be leaving more groups than i stayed the course with so i knew my time had come to stop. when something totally stops being fun 99% of the time enough is enough for a game. like i mentioned a million times the rewards are not enough for me in a dungeon and i need to prove to nobody that i can run it without those roles in group, my role is my role and i played it until the end to the best of my ability. but again hating or liking it does not matter its over now with update 46. it has simply been made so easy not to care anymore and to be honest my foot has been half way out of the door for years. last time i only returned due to discord contacts. but this upcoming thing now no way im not trying to ease the other foot out of the door somehow. the fake rolers lost thier fight years ago too. just did not realise it. i am suprised topics like this keep surfacing knowing what goes on in the actual game, these topics would make more sense if more people were talking how much they enjoyed thier 4 person pre-made groups playing the way they enjoyed and also decided to leve the random groups alone to thier roles. now without even the option after the update to prove everything wrong about defending it i am struggling to find how there can be fun continuing, i met some people along the way too who i strongly believe could have cleared the dlc dungeons in fake roles but there was no need or call or want for them in the same groups as me either. so after losing the fight years ago anyway and finding the toxic route slowly being suffocating too i just had enough, as much as i have criticised this update in other posts, for ending this debate once and for all i'll always love it even if its not for me, anyone that knows me well in game has known my stance here for a very long time and i have been very polite about other ways of doing dungeons aslong as vet dungeons are left free to thier real roles. probably not hard to know me on EU as i have been at it so long or to know my main interests are random vets and housing, but to know me well ingame would mean to also know which side i will always take in these discussions or in a random group

kargen27

kaushad wrote: »

I don't rush dungeons for XP or transmute crystals. I'm usually looking for the boss reward drops and a lot of those are exclusive to the final boss.

I think that dungeon set weapons and motifs should drop from any boss. I suppose that the odds for the latter would have to be lowered. The monster masks only make sense dropping from the final boss.

This would mean that farmers would achieve their goals in those dungeons faster, so later, a lot of them just won't queue for them. But maybe that's for the best? Also we would be less sick of those dungeons if we could fill the sticker book with 11(?) visits instead of one weapon at a time.

The problem with this idea is players could just run first boss over and over. There are some dungeons that have an easily soloable first boss and a final boss much tougher. The reward is for finishing the dungeon. I know that isn't what happens especially when chasing a certain weapon.
When we were looking for the inferno staff in Arx Corinium before the sticker book we would group up and as a group rush to the end. At least we did it as a formed group and didn't drag a random player through our madness. I ran that dungeon close to 200 times helping guild mates get weapons and even though we took advantage of bypassing bosses I don't think that should be allowed.

Orbital78

Arcturus wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

well that makes no sense at all looking out from which role you applied to join with, im healer you wait or you get no heals or i leave, im tank you simply wait or i leave, im dd you wait for both. There was just a general misunderstanding that being pulled into a premade group of 3 meant falling in line with anything those 3 expected, with any role. must say now maybe your right with update 46 due soon it does not really matter

You're assuming people need a healer/tank to clear content, they don't. Hence why faking a role exists. And if you're queueing for a recent dlc vet then you probably shouldn't take 30 years to press W.

Yes the only time that is very relevant is in veteran DLC content, which the tank really should dictate the pace. If they lollygag, make note of it and just avoid them in the future if it bothers you. If the group is good and actually communicates then it should be a non issue. 2-3 dps with half way decent aoe should nuke any level content fairly quickly. The issue is randoms be random, and often times you get low level players in veteran even.

kargen27

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

Opposite also applies. You are not entitled to waste a players time that has been in a queue because you want to skip the content they queued for. Always two sides and that is why what we have now doesn't work well.
You should not expect three other players to rush with you. The game unfortunately allows the inconvenience to only go one way.

kargen27

Arcturus wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Arcturus wrote: »

No one is entitled to another player's time. If you choose to queue for a dungeon solo using the Dungeon Finder, you should not expect three random players to wait for you.

well that makes no sense at all looking out from which role you applied to join with, im healer you wait or you get no heals or i leave, im tank you simply wait or i leave, im dd you wait for both. There was just a general misunderstanding that being pulled into a premade group of 3 meant falling in line with anything those 3 expected, with any role. must say now maybe your right with update 46 due soon it does not really matter

You're assuming people need a healer/tank to clear content, they don't. Hence why faking a role exists. And if you're queueing for a recent dlc vet then you probably shouldn't take 30 years to press W.

Fake rolls exist because people want to cut to the front of the queue. It has nothing to do with what roles are needed and everything to do with players being selfish and not caring about others in the game.

Daoin

but i dont know how many times solo queue players need to go back and forward to show people that dungeons are mostly done faster and smoother with a tank a healer and 2 dd's rather than 3 dd's or 4 in game without skipping before giving up, the fact some groups had a lower amount of dps was never a good enough excuse to look past the toxicity that came with thier arguments to push the 3 or 4 dd agenda ingame or in forum and it never will be, only difference right now and years ago is that fakers know thier place but just keep on coming back. i think i'll turn totally gray before i hear another guildie complain about fakers in randoms

Orbital78

kargen27 wrote: »

Fake rolls exist because people want to cut to the front of the queue. It has nothing to do with what roles are needed and everything to do with players being selfish and not caring about others in the game.

Partially, they also speed up the queue. In my opinion you shouldn't "fake" it unless you can do it, but bad players are often faking which isn't cool. I think I can dps tank almost all of the DLC dungeons (Random Normal), is it harming anyone if I speed up the queue and complete the job, but just not in a traditional build? In general I avoid doing normal dungeons though, as I don't want to wait on quests so I leave the newer players to that. I tend to vet random as a healer or dps.

The root of the issue is a lack of support roles, or ZoS requiring them when they aren't needed.

Vulkunne

Look, I don't hold with speed running ok.

But check this out. If I need gear from somewhere, it takes numerous repeated runs for me to build up the Sticker book. Remember, having items from a set reduces the Transmute cost considerably. Especially if you're making the set for more than one character, which isn't always a thing, but it happens.

The other side to this, is people who take too long to move thru the content. Many times, I have been the 'nicer' guy and waited when someone else basically just told me to wait. Yeah. They don't ask, they just say we need to wait, in almost a parental sort of way, kind of guilt tripping us into their demands that we wait for them. Ok that isn't cool either and I have stopped going along with that in my groups.

You can say what you want, you can bad mouth me to your hearts content, but some of these newer runs are difficult, time consuming, and most of us (the majority) are there for gear. We're not there to wait all day for you. So yes, speed running is rude but it can be progressive vs taking twice as long waiting on someone else to run the story, listen to every last line of dialogue and then tells us we're wrong for 1 or sometimes 2 people enforcing their demands on the rest of the group.

Some of us just don't have time for that man and as the leader of the group (almost always during 4 man runs) I'm not going to force everyone else to wait for you.

kargen27

Orbital78 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Fake rolls exist because people want to cut to the front of the queue. It has nothing to do with what roles are needed and everything to do with players being selfish and not caring about others in the game.

Partially, they also speed up the queue. In my opinion you shouldn't "fake" it unless you can do it, but bad players are often faking which isn't cool. I think I can dps tank almost all of the DLC dungeons (Random Normal), is it harming anyone if I speed up the queue and complete the job, but just not in a traditional build? In general I avoid doing normal dungeons though, as I don't want to wait on quests so I leave the newer players to that. I tend to vet random as a healer or dps.

The root of the issue is a lack of support roles, or ZoS requiring them when they aren't needed.

I'm of the opinion if you can taunt and hold the bosses agro you aren't a fake tank. The fake tank either doesn't bother to taunt or dies almost immediately after taunting. Just taunting doesn't make you a good tank but at least you are doing the minimum.