Remove everything mutually exclusive to classes

Erickson9610 · May 8

There are four things (to memory) that are mutually exclusive to each class, now that Subclassing makes skill lines no longer mutually exclusive. They are:

Class Sets (Infinite Archive)
- Each of these sets are themed around a skill line belonging to a class. With a third Class Set for each class on the way, it really doesn't make much sense that we cannot use a Class Set that augments a skill line that we can Subclass into.
Class Set weapon/armor motifs
- Regardless of your position on Subclassing, you probably agree that the fashion aspect of the Class Sets shouldn't be restricted to your class, even if those motifs have the associated class symbol on them. Nightblade's head piece was a very popular piece in the Class Set style, and many wish they could use it on their non-Nightblades. Those motifs also cannot be used on Companions — even on Companions of the same class as the motif you select. The class restriction is unpopular.
Class Mastery (Scribing)
- The unique effects per class have got to go. It would be better for the sake of balancing if Class Mastery was instead made into a generic buff that boosted Class abilities somehow — whether that only affect your base class or all of your Class abilities. Problematic Class Masteries include Arcanist's for the Crux generation, Warden's for the charm, and Templar's for the Restoring Light skill line requirement.
Subclassing's own limitations that you cannot have more than one skill line from another class and that you must retain one skill line from your own.
- Finally, the last thing that needs to change in order for any character to be any class. Why must we retain one skill line from our original class if we no longer wish to be that class? Why can't we specialize in being another class instead? We can manage the double skill point cost for three skill lines easily — we just need the ability to completely discard our old class. Can we get a Class Change Token to do this if Subclassing won't allow it?

Subclassing broke down a lot of barriers, which is good. Now we just need the rest of the restrictions lifted.

Preferably we wouldn't even have to pick between classes; we could just buy sets of three skill lines (one for damage, one for tanking, and one for healing) from the Crown Store (i.e. purchasing a DLC class) and then be able to use any skill from any of our classes on our bars. Damage dealers then are expected to use three damage lines on an optimized build in PvE, because there's no reason to also specialize in tanking and healing if your role is damage.

And why is there only one skill line for frost magic (Winter's Embrace) while there are several for fire magic (all three of Dragonknight's skill lines)? Ideally there should be several options to pick from for the element of our choice, but the class system ESO originally went with limits our ability to freely pick the spells we want to use, unlike previous TES games. Warden is like three classes in one — it might've been better if we had three lines for frost-related spells (like a Cryomancer class), with the animal and nature related spells put into their own separate classes.

@ZOS_Kevin

Treeshka · May 8

I think these restrictions are there because of tech depth.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 8

Guess they won't so you have a reason to play with alts.

MJallday · May 8

i actualyl think they should BUFF these sets - so pure classes can use them - but you cannot use it if youve got subclassing lines. - gives the pure classes a reason to exist

ForumBully · May 8

I expect there will be additions to base-class specific itemization. I don't think the goal for ZoS was ever to discourage character creation.

Vaqual · May 8

MJallday wrote: »

i actualyl think they should BUFF these sets - so pure classes can use them - but you cannot use it if youve got subclassing lines. - gives the pure classes a reason to exist

This is the type of "one way alley" power budgeting that created unattractive metas for a long time. Classes (pure or mixed) should be based on fair and balanced concepts and synergies, not on extreme power that is locked behind permanent choices. It won't create real build diversity, because a locked setup can still be outperformed (and driven out of the meta) on any role by other classes. In the end this way of balancing is strongly impacted by changes that can make or break builds from one week to the next. In singleplayer games or finished/stagnant MMORPGS this is a different story, but, in constantly evolving and changing games, permanent choices are adding more frustration than replayability.
If performance has to be the sole motivator to play a certain class setup, then you don't benefit from such restrictions. If class flavor is more important, then you already have everything you need.

In this sense I agree with @Erickson9610 , that these limitations are not adding anything worthwile to the game (except for class mastery, that is a nice touch that could be kept or reworked). I have of course no idea how much of a challenge it would be on the technical side to smooth this out, but it could be worth the effort if they are ever planning on releasing classes with less than 3 lines in the future.

LunaFlora · May 8

i want the Class outfit styles to not be exclusive, but the rest is fine to me.

MJallday · May 8

Vaqual wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

i actualyl think they should BUFF these sets - so pure classes can use them - but you cannot use it if youve got subclassing lines. - gives the pure classes a reason to exist

This is the type of "one way alley" power budgeting that created unattractive metas for a long time. Classes (pure or mixed) should be based on fair and balanced concepts and synergies, not on extreme power that is locked behind permanent choices. It won't create real build diversity, because a locked setup can still be outperformed (and driven out of the meta) on any role by other classes. In the end this way of balancing is strongly impacted by changes that can make or break builds from one week to the next.
If performance has to be the sole motivator to play a certain class setup, then you don't benefit from such restrictions. If class flavor is more important, then you already have everything you need.

In this sense I agree with @Erickson9610 , that these limitations are not adding anything worthwile to the game (except for class mastery, that is a nice touch that could be kept or reworked). I have of course no idea how much of a challenge it would be on the technical side to smooth this out, but it could be worth the effort if they are ever planning on releasing classes with less than 3 lines in the future.

you say Metas are unattrctive - but i disagree. thats why people go after them. I take your point about being locked behind decisions - but actually i think thas a good thing and drives people towards differnt character builds

i think the thing we possily agree on is that ZOS have made a design decision here that sends the game down a certain route -im not sure theres any coming back from it.

Vaqual · May 8

MJallday wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

i actualyl think they should BUFF these sets - so pure classes can use them - but you cannot use it if youve got subclassing lines. - gives the pure classes a reason to exist

This is the type of "one way alley" power budgeting that created unattractive metas for a long time. Classes (pure or mixed) should be based on fair and balanced concepts and synergies, not on extreme power that is locked behind permanent choices. It won't create real build diversity, because a locked setup can still be outperformed (and driven out of the meta) on any role by other classes. In the end this way of balancing is strongly impacted by changes that can make or break builds from one week to the next.
If performance has to be the sole motivator to play a certain class setup, then you don't benefit from such restrictions. If class flavor is more important, then you already have everything you need.

In this sense I agree with @Erickson9610 , that these limitations are not adding anything worthwile to the game (except for class mastery, that is a nice touch that could be kept or reworked). I have of course no idea how much of a challenge it would be on the technical side to smooth this out, but it could be worth the effort if they are ever planning on releasing classes with less than 3 lines in the future.

you say Metas are unattrctive - but i disagree. thats why people go after them. I take your point about being locked behind decisions - but actually i think thas a good thing and drives people towards differnt character builds

i think the thing we possily agree on is that ZOS have made a design decision here that sends the game down a certain route -im not sure theres any coming back from it.

I am not saying that everything about all metas is unattractive, I meant that we have been in a loop where certain classes have experienced multiple years in a row of being at the bottom rung of the meta hierarchy. This isn't something a players can predict when they pick a class for the first time, and even if, it can change at any moment - effectively trashing the concept for years to come. Just wanted to clarify that.

tomofhyrule · May 8

I definitely think that, with Subclassing, the fact that Class sets are still tied to the parent Class is not appropriate. We’re at the point where a Templar can trade the Aedric Spear line out and still wear the set that buffs it (?), while a DK who takes that skill line and then only has Aedric Spear abilities on his bar can’t wear it (?!?). Not to mention that some sets (like Reawakened Hierophant) have unique 2-4 piece bonuses which anyone could make use of even if they didn’t wear the full 5 piece.

It’s time for those sets to be unlocked. Curating the collection based on parent class makes sense, but actually wearing them should be unrestricted.

That being said, I don’t like the idea of making the Class sets into a buff for pure class characters. Subclassing should be balanced properly to not force it on people (which it is currently not and that’s a problem), and not make pure class people give up one of their sets (and take on an obnoxious and unnecessary glow) just to not get a nerf.

As for the styles - it made no sense for them to be locked in the first place, and it makes about 50x less sense now. What, my shadowy assassin character still can’t wear a facemask because he started life as a Necromancer? Get out of here. Unlock those. Now.

There is a technical reason that Classes are ingrained into the characters - the devs have said that Class is the one immutable part of a character and is buried so deep in the spaghetti code that it can’t be changed, and that’s why we got Subclassing instead of Class Change tokens. I can understand why Class Mastery is dependent on the parent Class and think that is acceptable.

As for the Subclassing limits, I’d like to do away with them too. Go ahead and swap out all three lines. Go ahead and add more than one line of a different Class. I don’t see a problem with making a Class Change in all but name. Again, the line balance is an issue, so I’d like to see some modifiers based on how many lines you have (so a character with three lines of the same Class will have more power to account for not having access to buffs or abilities from other Classes), but that’s a topic for the other thread.

dosco · May 12

Yeah, it makes 0 sense that I can wear a skill line set on a toon that does not have the skill line, but can't wear it on a toon that does

Mesite · May 12

Wait! Don't delete anything class related until I've had a chance to catch up. I've only been in the infinite archive twice so I haven't had a chance to try the class related armour yet. I'm not even sure what your first point means.

I've only done the first scribing quest too.

I don't care about motifs though. I rarely make any new armour.