PLEASE do not ignore pure class concerns

Tariq9898 · May 5

Right now, there's a lot of fear that players who choose to stay pure are gonna be severely punished, left behind, or even kicked out of the group. Because as of right now, every pure class is extremely weak when compared to subclassing. In addition, future released content could include mechanics that were introduced to counter subclassing. Such as bosses with a billion HP or bosses that are very anti-melee and pro-beam. This further coerces players to subclass.

You could create two balance systems similar to Vengeance.

This could look like:
- Nerf subclass down to the level of pure class.
- Buff pure class up to the level of subclass.
- Or do both and have them meet in the middle.

This could apply to passives and/or skills. There are millions of ways to go about this.

This is NOT even about "Subclassing vs No Subclassing." This is about allowing player freedom to play how they want without getting punished. There are many players who like classes as they are and are choosing to not subclass. Their choices shouldn't be punished for a system they didn't even ask for.

All I, and many other people, ask is that you close the power gap between pure classes and subclasses, however that is done. Making pure classes just as good and thus, honoring player choice and freedom.

ZOS, please do not ignore pure class concerns. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

ADarklore · May 5

WHY are you giving in to fear... and what will you do if it happens? Fear-mongering doesn't help anything or anyone. The problem isn't with ZOS, it's with players allowing min/maxer meta chasers to dictate how the game is played. If more players stopped fueling these people, stopped grouping with them, started making their own groups... eventually those players would either leave, or start opening their groups with less 'restrictions'. This problem has occurred since ESO was established, people always chasing the 'best build' and every patch, every update, that changed... and people who allowed it, were forced to continue the chase. Subclassing is more of the same... but at least for a huge number of players, this will open up the game to much more possibilities... those who allow others to dictate how they play, not so much.

BananaBender · May 5

ADarklore wrote: »

WHY are you giving in to fear... and what will you do if it happens? Fear-mongering doesn't help anything or anyone. The problem isn't with ZOS, it's with players allowing min/maxer meta chasers to dictate how the game is played. If more players stopped fueling these people, stopped grouping with them, started making their own groups... eventually those players would either leave, or start opening their groups with less 'restrictions'. This problem has occurred since ESO was established, people always chasing the 'best build' and every patch, every update, that changed... and people who allowed it, were forced to continue the chase. Subclassing is more of the same... but at least for a huge number of players, this will open up the game to much more possibilities... those who allow others to dictate how they play, not so much.

If you don't care about balance at all in this game, good for you. Many people, me included, do care about it and getting as much out of the tools we are given is what makes the game fun. For others it's challenging yourself and getting difficult achievements as a group and understandably nobody wants to be the player who is holding everyone back on purpose by playing a build that is significantly weaker than alternative builds, which is absolutely going to be the case if subclassing goes live in this state. Worrying having to choose between remaking your entire character you might have spent 10 years building and playing on, or keep playing your character as is but knowing you are holding the group back by contributing significantly less than others is a completely valid. This isn't about min/maxing or meta chasing, it's simply the fact that people don't to like being a hinderance to others.

Blaming the players for caring about balance and ZoS doing extremely bad job at balancing is wild to me. Sure, fear mongering doesn't help, but neither does telling people to stop caring about glaring problems.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 6

in order to fix they issues with subclassing they would have to go in and rework nearly every ability on every class and you and i both know that is never going to happen in any meaningful way.

the class design in eso is fundamentally flawed, its gotta be fixed from the ground up. most class skill lines dont even interreact with themselves let alone the other skill lines in their class, every class has a "tanking" a "dps" and "healing" skill line so no matter what your doing on your character it is always better to stack 3 skill lines that all benefit you rather than having 2 dead skill lines that do almost nothing for you.

in other words, there is no way to make pure classes viable other than full reworks or adding some sort of punishment system for not being a pure class

SilverBride · May 6

I know less than almost everyone when it comes to class balance, and min/maxing (what does that even mean?). And I'd rather get a root canal without anesthesia than theorycraft, which is what I see as necessary for subclassing.

My main complaint with subclassing isn't a fear of change. It's having our characters nerfed to become a weakened version of what they once were if we choose to keep our classes pure.

Stx · May 6

There is no world where pure classes will or should have the same performance as multi classes that are specialized into any given role. A pure class will have one, sometimes two trees focused on damage dealing and multiclasses will have all three, but they will be less tanky and may be missing key sustain or buffs at the same time.

Ezhh · May 6

ADarklore wrote: »

WHY are you giving in to fear... and what will you do if it happens? Fear-mongering doesn't help anything or anyone. The problem isn't with ZOS, it's with players allowing min/maxer meta chasers to dictate how the game is played. If more players stopped fueling these people, stopped grouping with them, started making their own groups... eventually those players would either leave, or start opening their groups with less 'restrictions'. This problem has occurred since ESO was established, people always chasing the 'best build' and every patch, every update, that changed... and people who allowed it, were forced to continue the chase. Subclassing is more of the same... but at least for a huge number of players, this will open up the game to much more possibilities... those who allow others to dictate how they play, not so much.

Your own signature states, you are "strictly a solo PvE quester" and this makes me wonder if you understand why people use meta builds. If you are only playing solo quests you are not putting yourself in situations where up to 11 other people can also succeed or fail based on your contribution. If you were in such a group, would you want to be the player who is only doing half the damage of anyone else, or the healer who is producing less healing output and no supportive buffs while the other healer does it all? I know there are some people who just don't care so long as they get their new title, but many of us want to actually pull our weight and do the best we can to help our teams achieve whatever they are working toward. This typically means running builds that are meta or close to the meta.

Many of us would also like to be able to play an interesting variety of enjoyable and fun character builds while doing this.

When these two wants become incompatible, it's not about giving in to fear; it's about voicing our concerns (including those around how subclassing will make pure class builds fall behind) in the hope that we're heard and something bad can be repaired or avoided.

StarOfElyon · May 6

This is an absolute train wreck and the patch notes show that no one knows how to course correct it. Since when have we gone into week three of patch notes with barely any tweaks before? This thing is screaming disaster.

BattleAxe · May 6

If they balance things to have “pure” classes on par with sub classing why would anyone engage with sub classing if they can be as effective? Sub classing is the new big thing this update so it’s gonna be the big thing if they make it where staying “pure” is just as effective no one will want to waste their time on it. No one is forcing anyone to subclass no one is forcing anyone to not subclass. It’s players choice. Making a choice has its consequences. Staying pure class obviously your probably not gonna parse as high as someone sub classing however you will likely have better survivability over the ones sub classing as they had to give up tanking and healing related passives for glass cannon building. At the end of the day it’s just a game to play and have fun.

SaintJohnHM · May 6

It seems to be too late, they are committed to releasing this convoluted multiclassing garbage.

Daoin · May 6

BattleAxe wrote: »

If they balance things to have “pure” classes on par with sub classing why would anyone engage with sub classing if they can be as effective? Sub classing is the new big thing this update so it’s gonna be the big thing if they make it where staying “pure” is just as effective no one will want to waste their time on it. No one is forcing anyone to subclass no one is forcing anyone to not subclass. It’s players choice. Making a choice has its consequences. Staying pure class obviously your probably not gonna parse as high as someone sub classing however you will likely have better survivability over the ones sub classing as they had to give up tanking and healing related passives for glass cannon building. At the end of the day it’s just a game to play and have fun.

for devs tweaking skills must be like having 2 wives to please, you can please one but im pretty sure if and when the other finds out, unhappiness willspread. while subclassing is kind of like just giving in to polygamy and the answers to any concerns about whats fair and whats not. subclassing is generally where eso was always going when i look back and think about those misrable years of constant clay pigeon shooting on classes and skills between updates. atleast now all the bread is in one basket. people would like to believe they need to work hard in eso and please others to get anywhere but the 'leave group' option is there for a reason. nobody will have to group with anyone they dont want to but the thing is how do we now tell what class someone actually is among other things when grouping, parsing will never replace doing the mechs no matter how high it goes. and i dont think the ability to just blast through content was the plan with this update. think of this as the frankensteins monster of answers. in my mind subclassing wont help what needs changing in game but it will make the game more excting for some players i think in the long run for new players. the actual amount of dps a character can now throw out will change nothing in game really and thats if its even overall noticed alot. all as i can think this can achieve is to offend a few regular eso players for now, while again other regular players just see it as a fun progression either way i will miss the classes of eso myself and the fact is those are now apart of eso history. what will be nice is to see where devs take subclassing once it has lifted off past the clay pigeon phase again and i expect there to be a few sessions from now until it settles. but we are in 2025 now very far down the eso road and im pretty sure class based mmo games will all not die out for good, just got to wait for one and take advantage of the time gaps

WitchyKiki · May 6

No subclass, no fungal grotto 1 for u.

BretonMage · May 6

BattleAxe wrote: »

If they balance things to have “pure” classes on par with sub classing why would anyone engage with sub classing if they can be as effective? Sub classing is the new big thing this update so it’s gonna be the big thing if they make it where staying “pure” is just as effective no one will want to waste their time on it. No one is forcing anyone to subclass no one is forcing anyone to not subclass. It’s players choice. Making a choice has its consequences. Staying pure class obviously your probably not gonna parse as high as someone sub classing however you will likely have better survivability over the ones sub classing as they had to give up tanking and healing related passives for glass cannon building. At the end of the day it’s just a game to play and have fun.

More importantly, it is an RPG and an Elder Scrolls game. In fact, it is, first and foremost, an Elder Scrolls game. If we want to play a pure mage/sorcerer (one of the staple classes of Elder Scrolls/RPG games), we should be able to do so without feeling like we're flinging a wet noodle.

Add to that, it is an Elder Scrolls MMO, which means that we are flinging said wet noodle in a community. This "no one is forcing you" rhetoric is just not true. It is not a real choice if power imbalance means that you become unviable for group content.

Jaimeh · May 6

DPS players always had to adapt to the meta if they wanted to be on par, as they have to bring specific sets in groups and play specific roles in terms of being pure hitters or helping with buffs, while other players who wanted to play differently were also free to do so, either solo or in a group that welcomed it, and neither of these two cases is changing with subclassing.

Off-meta builds were always behind, damage-wise, and the same will be true now. Yes, there will be a considerable gap, but I don't think every player will hit the inflated numbers you see on the PTS from some of the best players in the game--the rotations will still be hard to learn and live content is different. Also, with subclassing, there will be less choice for utility skills, like healing/mitigating, and that's also a minus point when doing difficult and mechanically complex content.

I think pure class players will still be able to do everything they could pre-patch, they will just be less competitive in organized group comps, which have always asked for min-max'ing anyway. And I really think, even players who are hard-core into their pure class characters would still benefit from swapping one line to use some skills here and there, which is no different for example from people who played a given class so far but used mostly weapon, guild, alliance, or vamp skills on their bar and nary a class skill.

To be honest the only thing that is bothering me with sub-classing versus pure classing is not the damage, but the loss of identity and aesthetics; losing character identity is much more concerning than the issue of conforming to the meta, which we always had to do anyway to stay competitive.

francesinhalover · May 6

Imagine people that want to subclass to go and see... you gain 5-10% more ...say...a... dmg if you don't subclass.

it would feel...anticlimatic?

It's a nice bonus to have later on... Will have to wait a few months.

Elvenheart · May 6

WitchyKiki wrote: »

No subclass, no fungal grotto 1 for u.

I’m sure that any of my characters able to solo Fungal Grotto now will also be able to solo it without Subclassing anything after it’s live.

ForumBully · May 7

What some call "pure" classes, I call choosing to ignore stronger options

tomofhyrule · May 7

ForumBully wrote: »

What some call "pure" classes, I call chosing to ignore stronger options

Yes. That’s the problem. It shouldn’t be stronger. It should be balanced.

If we’re really expected to build our characters however we want (which for some people actually means “I want the three default lines”), then there really shouldn’t be a power delta greater than about 5% in order to keep balance. If one setup is giving you about 50+% more power than others (including the base Classes, since you can’t even start playing with until you hit Lv 50 anyway), then that signifies that the game balance is off and deserves a correction.

The problem is being able to correct these unbalanced skill line combos without affecting the builds that use one line but not the other.

Erickson9610 · May 7

It's kind of silly expecting to have equal damage to a build which is min/maxing their skill lines for damage dealing, while also having the healing and tanking skills that the optimized build gave up.

Why would anyone Subclass if it put them in a worse position?

You could ask, why would anyone remain Pureclass if it put them in a worse position — but the way I see it, the tradeoff is that Pureclasses have all of their damage, healing, and tanking skills, while damage dealer Subclasses have given up the healing and tanking skills for more damage.

I don't see the issue. The system is balanced by virtue of what kinds of skills you give up in order to specialize. Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

SilverBride · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

Pure classes are what this game was built around and has been for 11 years now. It is not a jack of all trades because the player determines if they are going to tank or heal or do damage, and then chooses their class skills that compliment that. Players also have weapon skills and guild skills they can use to work along with this, but they always have one goal they choose their skills for.

Subclassing is the jack of all trades because they are using skills from a variety of classes and have no cohesion. Logically, they could not possibly be as strong as a pure class.

Renato90085 · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

It's kind of silly expecting to have equal damage to a build which is min/maxing their skill lines for damage dealing, while also having the healing and tanking skills that the optimized build gave up.

Why would anyone Subclass if it put them in a worse position?

You could ask, why would anyone remain Pureclass if it put them in a worse position — but the way I see it, the tradeoff is that Pureclasses have all of their damage, healing, and tanking skills, while damage dealer Subclasses have given up the healing and tanking skills for more damage.

I don't see the issue. The system is balanced by virtue of what kinds of skills you give up in order to specialize. Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

if some class not can do high dmg and same time have heal and high shield i may will agree you

tomofhyrule · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

It's kind of silly expecting to have equal damage to a build which is min/maxing their skill lines for damage dealing, while also having the healing and tanking skills that the optimized build gave up.

Why would anyone Subclass if it put them in a worse position?

You could ask, why would anyone remain Pureclass if it put them in a worse position — but the way I see it, the tradeoff is that Pureclasses have all of their damage, healing, and tanking skills, while damage dealer Subclasses have given up the healing and tanking skills for more damage.

I don't see the issue. The system is balanced by virtue of what kinds of skills you give up in order to specialize. Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

And herein lies the rub. A lot of people think the Subclassed build is the jack-of-all-trades, while the pureclass is just that: purely focused on one thing.

You’re conflating “Class” with “Role.” Obviously if a player throws out all healing skills and tanking skills to make a pure glass cannon, they should have high DPS and basement-level survivability. However, this doesn’t work as expected in ESO because

The basegame Classes are not strictly set up as DPS/heal/tank lines, and most builds in any role will need skills from multiple lines
Even the DLC lines allow for some overlap, e.g. a lot of damage stuff in Warden’s tank lines allow
Organized group play already asks players to focus one one role and sacrifice role capability for other, allowing people to drop support lines and have no corresponding weaknesses
ESO’s combat system of only having 5+1 skills per bar means that there isn’t normally much of a conflict in slotted skills vs role already

As for the “jack-of-all-trades” argument, we can look at each Class’s unique thing (sets notwithstanding). Only Wardens have a source of Minor Toughness. Only Necros have a source of Major Vulnerability. Only DKs can restore resources with ults. Only Templars have fast res. That kind of idea.
And now, any player can access those unique buffs and features, and in many cases without also losing the access they have to other Class’s feature as well. As such, the Subclasses character is able to do things other Classes can, but don’t need to give anything up for that. It makes it look like Subclassing is an exchange of “nothing” for “more options and power.”

A lot of people point out this is an MMORPG. In any RPG, choices about your character need to be made. But a choice can’t be “nothing” versus “everything.” That’s more of a coercion than a choice.

If Subclassing is allowing people to access more skills and more features that a pure Class does not have access to, that means there needs to be a downside to going that route. Yes, giving up tanky/healing lines will cause issues in solo content like vMA, but Subclassing should not be balanced specifically around playing solo, especially in an MMO. Even then, RPGs like D&D say that a Multiclassed character won’t therefore have access to the highest-level skills or abilities of either parent Class, but ESO is essentially saying that you can take all the benefits of any of your parent classes with zero of the corresponding drawbacks.

Joy_Division · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

It's kind of silly expecting to have equal damage to a build which is min/maxing their skill lines for damage dealing, while also having the healing and tanking skills that the optimized build gave up.

Why would anyone Subclass if it put them in a worse position?

You could ask, why would anyone remain Pureclass if it put them in a worse position — but the way I see it, the tradeoff is that Pureclasses have all of their damage, healing, and tanking skills, while damage dealer Subclasses have given up the healing and tanking skills for more damage.

I don't see the issue. The system is balanced by virtue of what kinds of skills you give up in order to specialize. Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

Not necessarily. If I run a Templar for PvP next patch, I am absolutely dropping Dawn's Wrath as I would use literally zero of those skills for something else, probably Assassination. There's no specializing going on there. Just exchanging one class line that I am deriving no value for a different line that will make for a superior jack of all trades build.

ZhuJiuyin · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

Pureclass build is not a jack of all trades build.
The simplest example is that if a Sorc wants a non-pet build, unfortunately, most of its class abilities cannot meet that need. Even if the developers say "Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line as a whole." non-pet builds still cannot complete an end-game PVE build by replacing Daedric Summoning with something else, because the remaining parts are either mediocre or terrible.
To give a few more examples, when was the last time you saw a DK healer in end-game PVE? Or Templar TanK?
This is because the skill line of each class is seriously unbalanced, so if subclassing is not properly balanced, it will only further widen the gap, causing the strong to always be strong and the weak to always be weak. While we've seen in the past few patches that the developers are trying to salvage things, based on most feedback, it's clear that ZOS still needs to work harder.

BattleAxe · May 7

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

Pure classes are what this game was built around and has been for 11 years now. It is not a jack of all trades because the player determines if they are going to tank or heal or do damage, and then chooses their class skills that compliment that. Players also have weapon skills and guild skills they can use to work along with this, but they always have one goal they choose their skills for.

Subclassing is the jack of all trades because they are using skills from a variety of classes and have no cohesion. Logically, they could not possibly be as strong as a pure class.

This is true of people who choose to multi class as well they are picking skill lines with passives to compliment their chosen playstyle while sacrificing passives tht don’t align with their choice. Damage dealer gives up tanking and healing passives to boost their damage output.

There is virtually no way staying pure class will be as strong as subclassing even if say you only allow subclasses passives to be half as strong bcuz if u make the skills half as strong no one will choose to subclass

SilverBride · May 7

Jack of all trades means they are spreading their skills out over multiple roles. How could that possibly be as strong as the pure class that builds their character for one specific role?

BattleAxe · May 7

SilverBride wrote: »

Jack of all trades means they are spreading their skills out over multiple roles. How could that possibly be as strong as the pure class that builds their character for one specific role?

Becuz they are giving up skill lines with passives that don’t align with their specific role and taking skill lines with passives that further boost their role.

SilverBride · May 7

BattleAxe wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jack of all trades means they are spreading their skills out over multiple roles. How could that possibly be as strong as the pure class that builds their character for one specific role?

Becuz they are giving up skill lines with passives that don’t align with their specific role and taking skill lines with passives that further boost their role.

Pure classes can do this within their own class and the weapon and guild skills lines.

tomofhyrule · May 7

Let’s just do this as a thought experiment then.

If it were true that a pure class were a “Jack of all trades” and a Subclassed build were a “focused to a specific role,” then that would mean that Subclasses would be much better in places like vet group content, but places where players need to be able to perform all roles on the same character (like PvP or solo arenas) would favor said Jack-of-all-traded builds.

So do pure classes blow any and all subclassed builds out of the water in vMA or in duels? If not, this argument is fundamentally flawed.

StarOfElyon · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

It's kind of silly expecting to have equal damage to a build which is min/maxing their skill lines for damage dealing, while also having the healing and tanking skills that the optimized build gave up.

Why would anyone Subclass if it put them in a worse position?

You could ask, why would anyone remain Pureclass if it put them in a worse position — but the way I see it, the tradeoff is that Pureclasses have all of their damage, healing, and tanking skills, while damage dealer Subclasses have given up the healing and tanking skills for more damage.

I don't see the issue. The system is balanced by virtue of what kinds of skills you give up in order to specialize. Pureclasses shouldn't be as effective as Subclass builds that have specialized into their roles, because a Pureclass build is a jack of all trades build.

I played hybrids before hybridization which out me in a power deficit but I was fine with the challenge I was imposing on myself. My first hybrid was an Altmer Necromancer using a battle axe. She used magic attacks and 2-hand skills. It was fun. I was glad for some hybridization changes up until *all skills were changed to scale with the highest stat*. That was a step too far. That changed hybrid play from being an option to being the meta and that ruined it for me.

I would gladly try subclassing on some characters if it wasn't going to be the clear stronger option and my other characters weren't getting nerfed for it.

Auldwulfe · May 7

Thing is, if we separate PVP and PVE, then it isn't as much of an issue as some people think. ZOS has already introduced the fix .... how many monsters now have immunity phases... how many have been altered to gain them... and what stops ZOS from adding them to every other monster? What does it matter if you do 400K DPS if the monster goes immune for a period after 100, and the rest doesn't count, until you are allowed to do your next 100K>>>

We already see it in a LOT of places...

Now, going back to PVP... it is going to be a huge change..... my question there is whether or not we will see even more tank meta... or flash lightning death, due to huge DPS that no one can survive. Or, are we going to see a mechanic added where NO ONE can take more than x damage per second, regardless of what the DPS on the attacker is...
Imagine if ZOS added a mechanic where no player can take more than 1K damage per second from other players...

While I see early power creep..... in the end, I expect all PVE will start becoming more mechanic heavy.....
They already stated that PVE is going to get more difficult... so I am wondering, more, if the plan is for slowing or ignoring damage... and pushing things into immunity.

However, in the end, everything appears to have already been decided... PTS may let us put a bit of polish on something..... but, honestly.... if it is at PTS stage, then it is already decided. So, I will wait, see, and hope that things get better.

Auldwulfe