Not everything should be BOUGHT!

ImmortalCX · May 2

I was proud of my stack of antiquity furnishings. Today I found out you can buy most/all of them from a vendor, for relatively cheap.

This is the thing that sucks most about ESO, the rewards are all downstream of paid features. Let me explain.

ESO+ is the root of the evil. Players pay for it and have a much easier time leveling up crafting alts and doing daily writs, because they can effortlessly shuffle gear through the bank (which is not clogged by mats because they are in the crafting bag).

I know how it works now because for the first time, because of last month's event, I bought ESO+.

I can manage without, but the pipeline of dungeon runs -> trash gear -> level up another crafting alt is undeniable. All you have to do is speed run dungeons for trash gear and you can almost max a new crafting alt every week.

Just having all the mats go to your craft bag, and have 480? or so bank spaces to shuffle gear for deconstruction, creates two tiers of players.

And these rich players are playing a different game that I am. They just log in and have another 1M gold in a matter of weeks, doing nothing. And thus, all that gold with nothing to do with it.

And then they destroy an otherwise good system by making all the rewards purchasable with gold.

The whole system caters to paying customers, and they don't hesitate to ruin an otherwise good system just to appease the paying players.

You want player base to take the *actual* content seriously? You make the rewards from trials the flaming mounts. Or make the flame effects something you get from trials. But because they are crown store exclusives, there isn't any reward incentive to run the most difficult content.

The whole thing is anti-meritocracy and it has become a payable collectible game. I imagine 80% of the players posting here are in this category. I am not saying you are bad people for enjoying the game as is, but I am just explaining that this is why people have left the game. I always come back for a month or two and come to the same realization. An MMO that gates all the good rewards behind a cash shop can't reward skill. Skill players, the tryhard PVPers and non-ESO+ customers are just NPCs to witness the paid exploits of other players.

I wouldn't even call the game P2W. Its more like P2A (Pay to achieve). This is really off putting, and is probably the reason the game is in its current state.

DenverRalphy · May 2

You do realize that in order to purchase antiquity furnishings from a vendor, you still have to go out and scy/excavate each of them 3 times before you can purchase. Right?

Rich players can't just go and purchase antiquity furnishings.

Erickson9610 · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

You want player base to take the *actual* content seriously? You make the rewards from trials the flaming mounts. Or make the flame effects something you get from trials. But because they are crown store exclusives, there isn't any reward incentive to run the most difficult content.

I wouldn't personally use the flaming mounts, regardless of whether it came from content or the store. It doesn't fit my character.

I was motivated enough to learn how to play the game for the rewards in the Wolfhunter DLC (like the personality, titles, and skin) but after getting those rewards, nothing else has really appealed to me. I get what you mean by taking content seriously to get rewards that we want.

At this point, I'm just waiting for literally anything new that I want to appear somewhere in the game. I finished the fragment hunt for Roar, Verdant Green within a day, but we haven't received anything else for that skill line since.

ImmortalCX · May 2

DenverRalphy wrote: »

You do realize that in order to purchase antiquity furnishings from a vendor, you still have to go out and scy/excavate each of them 3 times before you can purchase. Right?

Rich players can't just go and purchase antiquity furnishings.

I did not know this!

But my point stands. Making everything purchaseable with gold devalues the system that gives the items.

I didn't *really* know how it worked before buying ESO+ for a month. On the surface it doens't look like a huge advantage, but it is the mechanism by which one can easily create 20 crafting alts and easily do daily writs on all of them.

And having crown shop rewards totally eclipse the trail content is also a serious problem.

There need to be apex rewards that represent skill and systems, not just cash.

Everyone who hasn't been buying ESO+ or making major cash purchases is essentially an NPC to witness the paid exploits of other players.

Hypertionb14_ESO · May 2

you can only buy antiquity furnishings after you unearth 3 of them.

AlwaysDancing · May 2

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

ImmortalCX · May 2

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

Estimate is that 20 crafting alts doing daily writs earns 55Kg/day. I think its actually more than that given the number of gold mats I get on my main. I just have three maxed crafters and it seems like I'm pulling in close to 50K/day between gold mats and master writs.

55000 x 7 = 385000 g/wk

DenverRalphy · May 2

Crafting dailies with 20 characters every day is a really slow way to make gold.

I make a few mil a week without trying just playing the game and selling my loot on the Traders.

Renato90085 · May 2

Farm 50+ time lead and unearth same 1 type antiquity furnishings just I want housing my all house sound a torture...

Northwold · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

Estimate is that 20 crafting alts doing daily writs earns 55Kg/day. I think its actually more than that given the number of gold mats I get on my main. I just have three maxed crafters and it seems like I'm pulling in close to 50K/day between gold mats and master writs.

55000 x 7 = 385000 g/wk

So, basically, if you're unemployed and do nothing but play ESO you'll hit the level referred to by the OP. Seems... Highly unlikely to be a big proportion of the player base.

To answer the OP's actual point, I think there's a misconception here. Antiquities have always been set up so once you've found the same item three times you can buy them. Indeed, the system explains this to you when you start using it. Otherwise players would be bored to tears. You've already earned them so I'm not seeing the problem.

Similarly, you can't buy the really special furnishings sold by the master crafting vendor unless you've crafted some writs to earn them (although a few of them do rotate weekly in the infinite archive -- paid for by playing the infinite archive, so again you have to earn them).

The whole set up is geared to making you earn content by playing. I'm not seeing the issue here.

Renato90085 · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

Estimate is that 20 crafting alts doing daily writs earns 55Kg/day. I think its actually more than that given the number of gold mats I get on my main. I just have three maxed crafters and it seems like I'm pulling in close to 50K/day between gold mats and master writs.

55000 x 7 = 385000 g/wk

and I farm mats in new player zone can easy farm 1m in 1-2hour
Crafting not fast but stable/quick(if have addon) and easy in 1 day

Diminish · May 2

I don't see the issue here. If you want the perks of ESO+ then sub to ESO+. In my opinion it is very affordable, and the benefits of it far outweigh the minimal cost of it.

ImmortalCX · May 2

Renato90085 wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

Estimate is that 20 crafting alts doing daily writs earns 55Kg/day. I think its actually more than that given the number of gold mats I get on my main. I just have three maxed crafters and it seems like I'm pulling in close to 50K/day between gold mats and master writs.

55000 x 7 = 385000 g/wk

and I farm mats in new player zone can easy farm 1m in 1-2hour
Crafting not fast but stable/quick(if have addon) and easy in 1 day

Yout cant farm 1M gold in 1-2 hours. I have done a ton of farming, it is closer to 100K/hr.

ImmortalCX · May 2

Diminish wrote: »

I don't see the issue here. If you want the perks of ESO+ then sub to ESO+. In my opinion it is very affordable, and the benefits of it far outweigh the minimal cost of it.

The point is that paid players end up with more gold and crowns. They need something to spend them on, so they make it a cash shop game, instead of meritocracy based, with best rewards based on content you can finish.

The whole horizontal progression, "no serious endgame" is downstream of it being a cash shop game.

The WOW sub model doesn't dispense crowns, nor does it give the tools for economic advantage (craft bag and expanded bank). That is why endgame content is taken seriously.

Renato90085 · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

Estimate is that 20 crafting alts doing daily writs earns 55Kg/day. I think its actually more than that given the number of gold mats I get on my main. I just have three maxed crafters and it seems like I'm pulling in close to 50K/day between gold mats and master writs.

55000 x 7 = 385000 g/wk

and I farm mats in new player zone can easy farm 1m in 1-2hour
Crafting not fast but stable/quick(if have addon) and easy in 1 day

Yout cant farm 1M gold in 1-2 hours. I have done a ton of farming, it is closer to 100K/hr.

are we have same run? in new player zone/speed build/double and speed cp /can got 200-280 Rubedite Ore or Platinum Dust in 8 min?

DenverRalphy · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Diminish wrote: »

I don't see the issue here. If you want the perks of ESO+ then sub to ESO+. In my opinion it is very affordable, and the benefits of it far outweigh the minimal cost of it.

The point is that paid players end up with more gold and crowns. They need something to spend them on, so they make it a cash shop game, instead of meritocracy based, with best rewards based on content you can finish.

The whole horizontal progression, "no serious endgame" is downstream of it being a cash shop game.

The WOW sub model doesn't dispense crowns, nor does it give the tools for economic advantage (craft bag and expanded bank). That is why endgame content is taken seriously.

I get where you're coming from. However Antiquities was simply not a suitable example though.

I don't know who I'd credit more for the trend in ESO. The powers that be because ultimately they have final say. Or the playerbase that is guaranteed to mob together and start tossing around the term Gatekeepinig the moment anything is acquired by any method even resembling challenging content (or FOMO if it's achievable only during and event).

wolfie1.0. · May 2

Doing crafting writs on 20 characters takes time and even on the fastest connection can still take between 1 and 3 hours to complete, if not more. And with mat prices being the way they are, it isn't exactly the money printing scheme it was a few years back.

Also, there is a LOT of content and gear that inorder to get you have to participate. Even if you buy dungeon and trial runs you have to be present to get the items you want. It isn't exactly an afk simulator. You have to either have stuff others want to buy and then farm those items or do it yourself.

And with items like transmute crystals, antiquities, Scribing, even stealing you have to grind those things out yourself at least once for the full benefit, and in some cases it's a worse grind if you want to do it on 20 characters.

And that kinda grinding has its pwn costs. I spent almost 3 years of this game just doing writs and farming mats, and selling them. 3 to 10 hours almost every day, sometimes more. Between 6 and 20 accounts. I earned my gold, and while eso+ is a convenience it's actually not the most cost effective way for storage.

Buying 10 or 11 accounts with base game access and on sale is cheaper than 1 years worth of eso plus, gets you 540 account storage, and 2500 guild bank storage without any investments. Once you start expanding banks and character storage its more.

Granted doing this isn't exactly fun or easy to track stuff, but it would provide most players with more storage than your ever likely to need.

twisttop138 · May 2

DenverRalphy wrote: »

You do realize that in order to purchase antiquity furnishings from a vendor, you still have to go out and scy/excavate each of them 3 times before you can purchase. Right?

Rich players can't just go and purchase antiquity furnishings.

Came here to say this and you said it all. Also lol at ESO+ being the root of all evil. The game needs people to buy into it to keep it going. If ESO becomes a loss for the suits, it's caput. They have to make it attractive. It's pretty standard imo.

Eta: by the by, I'm so glad the system works like this. I need ALL the coldharbor torture pillars.

ImmortalCX · May 2

Renato90085 wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

Estimate is that 20 crafting alts doing daily writs earns 55Kg/day. I think its actually more than that given the number of gold mats I get on my main. I just have three maxed crafters and it seems like I'm pulling in close to 50K/day between gold mats and master writs.

55000 x 7 = 385000 g/wk

and I farm mats in new player zone can easy farm 1m in 1-2hour
Crafting not fast but stable/quick(if have addon) and easy in 1 day

Yout cant farm 1M gold in 1-2 hours. I have done a ton of farming, it is closer to 100K/hr.

are we have same run? in new player zone/speed build/double and speed cp /can got 200-280 Rubedite Ore or Platinum Dust in 8 min?

If a stack of mats is woth 10K, and you can get a stack every 8 minutes, that is 8 stacks/hour which is 80K gold/hr.

ImmortalCX · May 2

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

You do realize that in order to purchase antiquity furnishings from a vendor, you still have to go out and scy/excavate each of them 3 times before you can purchase. Right?

Rich players can't just go and purchase antiquity furnishings.

Came here to say this and you said it all. Also lol at ESO+ being the root of all evil. The game needs people to buy into it to keep it going. If ESO becomes a loss for the suits, it's caput. They have to make it attractive. It's pretty standard imo.

I understand they need the lights to stay on.

But the decision ages ago to offer a sub with economic advantages, had a lasting impact on the game being turned into a cash shop game. It is all downstream of ESO+.

The ESO+ philosophy of giving economic advantage to paying players is directly responsible for the lacking endgame.

They can't have a meritocracy based reward system that outpaces cash shop rewards.

And they can't keep a system like antiquties untouched, because the way people play the game with crafting alts and daily writs. To keep all the gold heavy ESO+ players happy, they make gear which was once attained through work, achieved with gold. Thus devaluing the work of non-paying players. The stacks of antiquities I farmed are completely unimpressive now and can be duplicated with a little gold.

licenturion · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

There need to be apex rewards that represent skill and systems, not just cash.

Good luck with that. That statement is so 2010. Shop stuff will always be cooler than earned stuff to entice people to buy. That is in every game for the past years. There are also a lot of in-game purchases (crowns and gold) tied to unlocked achievements too. So I can't buy golden stuff if I haven't the achievement yet.

I don't understand what other people have to do with it though. If you earned something in game by gameplay, you still have the virtual and mental achievement of it. What other people do should not matter and other people probably don't care either which mount you have and how you acquired because there are 1000 of it by now.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

And they can't keep a system like antiquties untouched, because the way people play the game with crafting alts and daily writs. To keep all the gold heavy ESO+ players happy, they make gear which was once attained through work, achieved with gold. Thus devaluing the work of non-paying players. The stacks of antiquities I farmed are completely unimpressive now and can be duplicated with a little gold.

Correct me if I am wrong, but mytics (the only antiquties that require 'work')are account bound and can't be transferred arround. So I can easily reconstruct more mythics if I have collected them once (and put in the work). But you can't trade them or sell them at guild traders. For reconstruction you need transmutes, which are only available through gameplay. What am I missing here?

FadeShade · May 2

I wish I could get 'another 1M gold in a matter of weeks' while subbed, even with the +10% gold.

Renato90085 · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

How do I get 1M gold just by logging in for 2 weeks? I missed that memo.

Estimate is that 20 crafting alts doing daily writs earns 55Kg/day. I think its actually more than that given the number of gold mats I get on my main. I just have three maxed crafters and it seems like I'm pulling in close to 50K/day between gold mats and master writs.

55000 x 7 = 385000 g/wk

and I farm mats in new player zone can easy farm 1m in 1-2hour
Crafting not fast but stable/quick(if have addon) and easy in 1 day

Yout cant farm 1M gold in 1-2 hours. I have done a ton of farming, it is closer to 100K/hr.

are we have same run? in new player zone/speed build/double and speed cp /can got 200-280 Rubedite Ore or Platinum Dust in 8 min?

If a stack of mats is woth 10K, and you can get a stack every 8 minutes, that is 8 stacks/hour which is 80K gold/hr.

Ore and Platinum from same point, it mean if I have 200 ore,same time I have 200+ Platinum too.. and I not only farm this 2 item
This my last farm 2 hour in 9 month ago
3k Platinum

And there your 80k gold

I have same other gold mats in this run

ESO_player123 · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

You do realize that in order to purchase antiquity furnishings from a vendor, you still have to go out and scy/excavate each of them 3 times before you can purchase. Right?

Rich players can't just go and purchase antiquity furnishings.

Came here to say this and you said it all. Also lol at ESO+ being the root of all evil. The game needs people to buy into it to keep it going. If ESO becomes a loss for the suits, it's caput. They have to make it attractive. It's pretty standard imo.

I understand they need the lights to stay on.

But the decision ages ago to offer a sub with economic advantages, had a lasting impact on the game being turned into a cash shop game. It is all downstream of ESO+.

The ESO+ philosophy of giving economic advantage to paying players is directly responsible for the lacking endgame.

They can't have a meritocracy based reward system that outpaces cash shop rewards.

And they can't keep a system like antiquties untouched, because the way people play the game with crafting alts and daily writs. To keep all the gold heavy ESO+ players happy, they make gear which was once attained through work, achieved with gold. Thus devaluing the work of non-paying players. The stacks of antiquities I farmed are completely unimpressive now and can be duplicated with a little gold.

I have some questions here.

What gear are you talking about that once was attained through work and now is achieved with gold?

Why someone's ability to buy antiquities after they farmed 3 devalues your stack of antiquities?
I understand that some people like collecting stuff. Some might collect cheese, others collect antiquities. I, personally, collect Imperial motif books that I get when looting containers (I'm not buying them. That is no fun). Now, if you cherish your stack of antiquities that YOU scried and dug up, that achievement is still there for you. How does some Joe buying those antiquities devalues your stack? And, more importantly, why would Joe buy those antiquities unless he needs them for his latest cool housing project?

LalMirchi · May 2

Sigh, hyperbolic and misinformed topics full of wrong information and conclusions do not make a good discussion, respectfully.

Aylish · May 2

The fact that someone has like 20 pieces of an antiquity furnishing already shows that they worked for completing the codex of that item.
They just understood the mechanic of „find 3, buy more from achievement vendor“.

If you‘re more into „I want to dig out every single one of them instead of buying more anyways“ then great for you. You can be kinda proud if you like.
I can kinda understand that. I don‘t buy any motifs since I want to find them myself.

It‘s just not everyone‘s kind of thing. Others are happy to get the 3 codex entries to finally buy the stuff.

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 2

FadeShade wrote: »

I wish I could get 'another 1M gold in a matter of weeks' while subbed, even with the +10% gold.

Same, I just got a lucky drop and managed to sell it, so I made a LOT, but compared to the amount of time I have had ESO+ it would probably work out to making less than 1K a week :P

As for the OP's issue, I don't agree.

Everyone has to put in the initial work to be able to purchase the antiquities, even if they have ESO+ so I don't see any reason why people aren't allowed to purchase them. Unless you mean that they should all be account bound (which, they might already be?) so that people can't purchase them and sell them through guild traders?

If I find an antiquity that I really really like, I want multiple of it. I don't want to have to keep going through the cycle of 'try to get this specific lead, hunt it down, need more of that item, need to hunt down that specific lead'. I like that you can 'skip' the grind by being able to buy them with gold if you have put in the initial work before hand.

I am personally of the opinion that I feel that nearly everything *should* be able to be bought. Not necessarily cheaply, or easily, and there can need to be work put in before it can be bought, but essentially there would be no true 'exclusive' things. That is just my preference.

Cloudtrader · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

The ESO+ philosophy of giving economic advantage to paying players is directly responsible for the lacking endgame.

I don't agree that there is economic advantage to ESO+, besides a marginal lootable gold gain. The advantage is time. And really, time is not money in this game, it is convenience, in my opinion. Everyone with or without ESO+ can earn the exact same stuff in game. ESO+ gives no combat bonus.

I might be fundamentally mis-understanding you here, though. The only think ESO+ really affects is cosmetic things, I thought. Has nothing to do with endgame.

wolfie1.0. · May 2

ImmortalCX wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

You do realize that in order to purchase antiquity furnishings from a vendor, you still have to go out and scy/excavate each of them 3 times before you can purchase. Right?

Rich players can't just go and purchase antiquity furnishings.

Came here to say this and you said it all. Also lol at ESO+ being the root of all evil. The game needs people to buy into it to keep it going. If ESO becomes a loss for the suits, it's caput. They have to make it attractive. It's pretty standard imo.

I understand they need the lights to stay on.

But the decision ages ago to offer a sub with economic advantages, had a lasting impact on the game being turned into a cash shop game. It is all downstream of ESO+.

The ESO+ philosophy of giving economic advantage to paying players is directly responsible for the lacking endgame.

They can't have a meritocracy based reward system that outpaces cash shop rewards.

And they can't keep a system like antiquties untouched, because the way people play the game with crafting alts and daily writs. To keep all the gold heavy ESO+ players happy, they make gear which was once attained through work, achieved with gold. Thus devaluing the work of non-paying players. The stacks of antiquities I farmed are completely unimpressive now and can be duplicated with a little gold.

What gear Are you talking about? It took me nearly 8 months of queing for ruins of mazz 2 to 3 times a day to get the lead for the harpooners kilt. Oakensoul took me 4 weeks to farm.

Not to.mention ALL of the other leads I have had to farm.

Where is this mysterious vendor that sells this these things all complete? All the ones I know of require alternative currency that you can't use gold to farm and are on a rotation.

And as far as plus goes. Leave it be. It's not nearly as op as you seem to think and while it's steady income for zos it doesn't compare to what the crown store brings and if you want to point to ANYTHING that is excessive and predatory please look at crown crates and housing.

Housing is by far the most expensive thing you can do in ESO from both a gold and IRL perspective and once you invest in it you can't get nearly what you put into it back. And eso+ is only a fraction of the expense.

You can end the craft bag, sure. It will flood the market with mats again and people with gold would still be able to buy and sell all of the mats they want. Because we all know how to make gold in the game and use it wisely.

And people like me will have all the storage we want in the process.

Bithabus · May 2

Paying $15 a month does not indicate a "rich player".

kargen27 · May 3

I have two accounts. One is ESO+ and the other is not. It took some initial planning and set-up on the 2nd account but now crafting is about the same on both. All my characters on the 2nd use the same materials to craft and I sell off or trash any that won't be used. That makes it so I don't take up space for items that will not be used. If I stay on top of putting the unwanted materials in the bank and then once a week grab them on one character to sell or dump it doesn't take tons of time.

Sure it is quicker and easier on the ESO+ account but not so much so that it gives an unfair advantage. If you play three hours a month ESO+ is cheaper than almost any other entertainment out there. I think it is worth it and even without the craft bag would still subscribe. Leveling alt characters is quicker with ESO+ but either way characters level so fast it won't make any difference after maybe 10 hours of game time per character.

And I think you are offering an unrelated solution to a perceived problem. I tend to agree there should be more exclusive rewards for finishing harder content. I understand the thinking behind limiting that but I would like to see more rewards tied exclusively to finishing content. The lack of exclusive rewards isn't an ESO+ issue. It isn't even a crown store issue. The developers simply decided (probably based on data unavailable to us) that to many exclusive rewards alienates more players than it attracts.

Your argument against ESO+ is akin to saying hey we have a problem with pigeon droppings in the park because of all the people feeding pigeons. We should get rid of the park benches people sit on to fix this problem.