Ok, but how much DPS do you ACTUALLY need?

Turtle_Bot · April 28

Soarora wrote: »

Dino-Jr wrote: »

For many new players it is nowhere near intuitive to hit 80k dps. A huge % of players (even those trying to build logical optimized stuff) struggle massively to break 50k. Breaking 70k is an accomplishment for most.

The reason? Its difficult and takes a long time to make the money required to improve gear to yellow since the guild traders are hugely over complicated and the stuff to sell is not intuitive without external sites.

Even after you get money, the last steps to yellow out armor and jewelry + to get the needed cp take ages.

And beyond that many many players wont have purchased a target dummy or have joined a guild so they have no way of actually measuring their damage output or are unaware its possible to do so.

Mythics are brutally difficult to find and the system is terribly unintuitive to the point that online guides barely explain it

Long way of saying I think people greatly underestimate how long the average player takes to figure out how to break 50k dps and I would guess the absolute vast majority of the player base is barely above 30-40k.

Its cool because it gives everyone some long term in game goals and incentive to join guilds but for those suggesting 80k-120k I cant emphasize enough how difficult that is to figure out how to do coming in ‘new’.

Once your there and been there awhile it probably feels easy but for those still on the journey it is far from it and often frustrating since its almost always unclear how much each incremental gear improvement is actually helping damage output and the cost to invest in those incremental upgrades is so high even if you max out armor and weapons to yellow once you might not have the coin to experiment further if you messed up any one purchase along the way.

You can also do writs. I’ve never bought upgrade materials but I used to do a lot of writs so I just… have the upgrade mats (plus now also from deconning to an extent).

There is a learning problem and I really think ZOS needs better tutorials to help with that. ZOS should also add ONTO SETS & SKILLS the suggested role and buff useless sets to be more competitive with current sets so you aren’t just throwing by picking up a set that’s not one of the like 30 decent sets.

Building a DPS isn’t hard when you know the basics (divines armor, medium preferred, weapon traits to use, backbar berserker with a ground AoE to proc the enchant, etc). But that information isn’t given by the game and it needs to be.

The lack of good information available in-game is a long standing issue with ESO.

I know it took me ages to figure out how to create builds and it didn't help when things switched massively with the damage formula rework years ago that basically required relearning everything all over again.

This is also one of the big issues that has plagued PvP that has mostly gone ignored (both by ZOS and the player base) for ages now. Having builds, guides etc online is great and all, but very few players will know where to start looking for such guides, let alone the skills to understand and implement those guides, since there isn't even any updated basics in the game itself to give the players those skills.

Honestly, I'd love to see ZOS sit down and take some time to better organize things like:

- Damage types (ST, AoE, DoT, Direct, martial, magic, etc.).

DotA 2 does a good job of this where "Magic" damage is indicated via blue colour for the damage value number, physical damage is red, and pure damage is yellow, making it easy to, at a glance, identify what type of damage it is and easily figure out how it will interact in-game (reduced by armor or magic resistance, buffed by spell power or attack damage, etc.). IDR if healing has a separate colour, but that could be green as an example.

ZOS could do colours + icons for this, e.g.
Snipe deals martial, single target, direct damage, so the damage number would be coloured red to indicate martial damage type, with a triangle icon to indicate direct damage and a target icon that indicates single target.

OR

Wall of elements is magic, AoE, damage over time, so the damage number would be coloured blue to indicate magic damage type, with a clock icon to indicate over time and an explosion icon to indicate AoE.

This way players can tell just by glancing at an ability or set, it's damage type of martial/magic, direct/over time, and single target/AoE and as such, it's easy to figure out the respective resistance, champion points and sets that such a skill/set will interact with.

- Roles (this includes sets) with a clear indicator (like the role icons used in the group menu/dungeon finder) of the preferred role a set/skill is intended for on the skill/set tooltip itself.

These should not restrict those sets/skills to only be used for those roles, but give players the knowledge of how those skills/sets are intended to be used.

- Combat basics, core combat mechanics such as block, roll, sprint, etc. that is reinforced throughout the story quests via boss mechanics in those story bosses, instead of the current optional 1 and done tutorial that barely shows these mechanics exist.
- Create a repeatable and optional (players should still be encouraged to attempt it) "advanced tutorial area" that's a solo instance that players can port to, to learn some of the more advanced skills/mechanics of the game, such as tap block, weaving, animation canceling, block jump, etc. Being optional (but encouraged) allows those who just want to story time this game to do so, but those who want to learn more about the game itself can have an easily accessible (and repeatable) area to do so as well.

Dino-Jr · April 28

Repeatable real tutorial sounds excellent.

A mini game that basically just let anyone practice 1 pre built real rotation on a target dummy with each of the classes (without subclassing) would go a very long way. Also a nice way to showcase a character class for players exploring options.

Give it like light attack weave ‘hit’ prompts, and skill prompts like you would see in guitar hero.

Make it preload specific skills at max cp and max level that go away after exiting the mode.

Have it include a blue, purple, and yellow gear mode to show how the damage increases. And have it show the dps so players can see how it improves with better timing on skills.

Make it a ‘combat training’ arena mini game thats themed around one of the armies in the game.

Then separately add a place anyone can go without joining a guild or buying one for their house to use a trial dummy.

said no one ever · April 28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNHrzZUascE

sarahthes · April 28

Dino-Jr wrote: »

For many new players it is nowhere near intuitive to hit 80k dps. A huge % of players (even those trying to build logical optimized stuff) struggle massively to break 50k. Breaking 70k is an accomplishment for most.

The reason? Its difficult and takes a long time to make the money required to improve gear to yellow since the guild traders are hugely over complicated and the stuff to sell is not intuitive without external sites.

Even after you get money, the last steps to yellow out armor and jewelry + to get the needed cp take ages.

And beyond that many many players wont have purchased a target dummy or have joined a guild so they have no way of actually measuring their damage output or are unaware its possible to do so.

Mythics are brutally difficult to find and the system is terribly unintuitive to the point that online guides barely explain it

Long way of saying I think people greatly underestimate how long the average player takes to figure out how to break 50k dps and I would guess the absolute vast majority of the player base is barely above 30-40k.

Its cool because it gives everyone some long term in game goals and incentive to join guilds but for those suggesting 80k-120k I cant emphasize enough how difficult that is to figure out how to do coming in ‘new’.

Once your there and been there awhile it probably feels easy but for those still on the journey it is far from it and often frustrating since its almost always unclear how much each incremental gear improvement is actually helping damage output and the cost to invest in those incremental upgrades is so high even if you max out armor and weapons to yellow once you might not have the coin to experiment further if you messed up any one purchase along the way.

Yes, it takes a while to get to endgame and play at an endgame level.

That's why it's called endgame.

I've had someone think they were endgame ready after only playing for a few months, but I'm reality they still had a lot to learn about the game. It was another 6 months before they were actually playing at an endgame level all the time.

Yudo · April 28

Ezhh wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Okay, I’m gonna ask a more specific version of this question:
What is the average dps requirements of most core teams?
What do we think they will be next patch?
For reference, my team is pushing VAS+2 and wants 100k+ Arcs (support DDs obv different)

You can have a core team progging vCR+1 or a core team progging Swash, but since you mention AS HM, I'd say around 100k (on a dummy - in actual content I'd expect lower), but I'd prefer to judge performance based on things like % damage done to protectors and minis. If leading, I'd consider people beneath 100k if they are making an effort to learn and improve.

The thing with parsing 100k on a dummy (besides it being a nice round number so kind of appealing), is that most players can reach this threshold even without meta gear and LA weaving. This makes it a good low effort check for whether someone is going to put in much effort or not, and not all leads want to put in more effort than this themselves to work out if someone is a good fit.

What will you need to do vAS prog if PTS goes live as it is? Well, vAS doesn't change, so what you need to prog it doesn't change either. But raid leads' general feelings about what specific dps on a dummy gives a good indication of a player's general competence might well change, and what they ask for might change as a result.

This is something I wish I understood better, or have access to better information. My experience is that those who do not have meta sets or optimised builds cannot breach 70K, let alone 100K. I say this while recognising that this is often low dps in trials and at bottom of the list. Somehow everyone is doing it right, but I cannot figure it out even though my weave is clean.

For reference though I know I can reach higher numbers with meta setup. For example if I add something like Rele I gain 10K for free. If I add curse with pets (sorc) I gain like another 10K. If I change mundus to thief/shadow and add trap I'm suddenly well over 100K, but the build has drastically changed in playstyle at this point. This is why I limit my dd to vet content and just play off-meta, and swap to Healer or Tank for HM DLC content where it tends to be slightly more flexible than parsing in playstyle choices.

I do not expect these numbers to go up either since for now I'm not considering to dip into subclassing just yet.

Dino-Jr · April 28

sarahthes wrote: »

Its not just how long it takes. I think its good theres something to work towards over a long period of time. Thats not a big concern of mine (though how money is made is a problem).

My concern is how poorly explained by the game itself the entire loot system, trading system, mythic system, and dps optimizing systems are. This game and its systems are not intuitive or explained by the game.

Much of this starts with how making money is not accessible and not explained. Making money without asking for help and sorting the guild traders out is basically a gigantic barrier to entry for newer players. You still have to gear up to truely improve dps and doing that without hundreds of thousands of dollars is unrealistic. Mostly boils down to the cost of materials as things progress.

I am fairly confident a massive majority of people who play this game never get more than a couple hundred thousand saved at best. Not because making money is impossible but simply because how to do it is not made clear in game.

I dont think any of the systems need to massively change but I do think ESO does a comically terrible job at explaining anything about itself in how rotations work and how optimization/gear improvement works.

Artim_X · April 28

On the 3 million HP dummy solo

30K all content
25K Vet DLC dungeons and normal trials
20K Vanilla Vet dungeons and normal trials
15K Normal Dungeons

sarahthes · April 28

Dino-Jr wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Its not just how long it takes. I think its good theres something to work towards over a long period of time. Thats not a big concern of mine (though how money is made is a problem).

My concern is how poorly explained by the game itself the entire loot system, trading system, mythic system, and dps optimizing systems are. This game and its systems are not intuitive or explained by the game.

Much of this starts with how making money is not accessible and not explained. Making money without asking for help and sorting the guild traders out is basically a gigantic barrier to entry for newer players. You still have to gear up to truely improve dps and doing that without hundreds of thousands of dollars is unrealistic. Mostly boils down to the cost of materials as things progress.

I am fairly confident a massive majority of people who play this game never get more than a couple hundred thousand saved at best. Not because making money is impossible but simply because how to do it is not made clear in game.

I dont think any of the systems need to massively change but I do think ESO does a comically terrible job at explaining anything about itself in how rotations work and how optimization/gear improvement works.

There was a lot of brain drain after update 35, and we lost a lot of community-led knowledge. There are people in endgame who are working on developing new guides and information, especially for the areas that aren't overlapped by the few existing content creators, or using different media for people who prefer different means of accessing knowledge.

This is definitely an area where ESO is really weak.

tomofhyrule · April 28

sarahthes wrote: »

Dino-Jr wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Its not just how long it takes. I think its good theres something to work towards over a long period of time. Thats not a big concern of mine (though how money is made is a problem).

My concern is how poorly explained by the game itself the entire loot system, trading system, mythic system, and dps optimizing systems are. This game and its systems are not intuitive or explained by the game.

Much of this starts with how making money is not accessible and not explained. Making money without asking for help and sorting the guild traders out is basically a gigantic barrier to entry for newer players. You still have to gear up to truely improve dps and doing that without hundreds of thousands of dollars is unrealistic. Mostly boils down to the cost of materials as things progress.

I am fairly confident a massive majority of people who play this game never get more than a couple hundred thousand saved at best. Not because making money is impossible but simply because how to do it is not made clear in game.

I dont think any of the systems need to massively change but I do think ESO does a comically terrible job at explaining anything about itself in how rotations work and how optimization/gear improvement works.

There was a lot of brain drain after update 35, and we lost a lot of community-led knowledge. There are people in endgame who are working on developing new guides and information, especially for the areas that aren't overlapped by the few existing content creators, or using different media for people who prefer different means of accessing knowledge.

This is definitely an area where ESO is really weak.

This is one of the lingering effects of U35 that we’re still feeling to this day.

A lot of people now like to look back at U35 - which honestly wasn’t the worst thing in the world - and wonder why most long-term players continually point to it as an issue. After all, everyone gets nerfed, right?

It was more the attitudes shown there. U35 was designed to raise the floor and lower the ceiling, but it didn’t manage that. It just compressed everything down, seriously screwed PvE healers over, and then gave a blanket 10% HP nerf to bosses to make up for the lost damage. The top players bounced back almost immediately and the casuals barely noticed anything since they stick to overland… but the mid-level got gutted. The biggest problem was that a lot of creators and people helping bring new players into endgame ended up leaving for good, making the gap between casuals and endgame almost insurmountable.

U46 is starting to smell like this. Maybe not yet, but if Subclassing is unbridling DPS, then we’re gonna see the gap widening. And remember - just because “the sweats” pick the three lines that will give you 170k, that doesn’t mean you’ll do 170k (or even 120k+) just by copying their setup without practice. As such, mid-game players will get a bit of a DPS boost, and endgame requirements will shoot even further out of their range.
And all of that isn’t considering that there *will* be a “rein in the power creep” nerf, probably around U48, which will serve to drive off even more players.

This is a tightrope they’re walking right now. I wish them luck.

sarahthes · April 28

tomofhyrule wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Dino-Jr wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Its not just how long it takes. I think its good theres something to work towards over a long period of time. Thats not a big concern of mine (though how money is made is a problem).

My concern is how poorly explained by the game itself the entire loot system, trading system, mythic system, and dps optimizing systems are. This game and its systems are not intuitive or explained by the game.

Much of this starts with how making money is not accessible and not explained. Making money without asking for help and sorting the guild traders out is basically a gigantic barrier to entry for newer players. You still have to gear up to truely improve dps and doing that without hundreds of thousands of dollars is unrealistic. Mostly boils down to the cost of materials as things progress.

I am fairly confident a massive majority of people who play this game never get more than a couple hundred thousand saved at best. Not because making money is impossible but simply because how to do it is not made clear in game.

I dont think any of the systems need to massively change but I do think ESO does a comically terrible job at explaining anything about itself in how rotations work and how optimization/gear improvement works.

There was a lot of brain drain after update 35, and we lost a lot of community-led knowledge. There are people in endgame who are working on developing new guides and information, especially for the areas that aren't overlapped by the few existing content creators, or using different media for people who prefer different means of accessing knowledge.

This is definitely an area where ESO is really weak.

This is one of the lingering effects of U35 that we’re still feeling to this day.

A lot of people now like to look back at U35 - which honestly wasn’t the worst thing in the world - and wonder why most long-term players continually point to it as an issue. After all, everyone gets nerfed, right?

It was more the attitudes shown there. U35 was designed to raise the floor and lower the ceiling, but it didn’t manage that. It just compressed everything down, seriously screwed PvE healers over, and then gave a blanket 10% HP nerf to bosses to make up for the lost damage. The top players bounced back almost immediately and the casuals barely noticed anything since they stick to overland… but the mid-level got gutted. The biggest problem was that a lot of creators and people helping bring new players into endgame ended up leaving for good, making the gap between casuals and endgame almost insurmountable.

U46 is starting to smell like this. Maybe not yet, but if Subclassing is unbridling DPS, then we’re gonna see the gap widening. And remember - just because “the sweats” pick the three lines that will give you 170k, that doesn’t mean you’ll do 170k (or even 120k+) just by copying their setup without practice. As such, mid-game players will get a bit of a DPS boost, and endgame requirements will shoot even further out of their range.
And all of that isn’t considering that there *will* be a “rein in the power creep” nerf, probably around U48, which will serve to drive off even more players.

This is a tightrope they’re walking right now. I wish them luck.

That is the part that worries me. I'm not thrilled with stale builds but I can live with it. I do worth about another mass exodus if this is mishandled.

Soarora · April 28

Yudo wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Okay, I’m gonna ask a more specific version of this question:
What is the average dps requirements of most core teams?
What do we think they will be next patch?
For reference, my team is pushing VAS+2 and wants 100k+ Arcs (support DDs obv different)

You can have a core team progging vCR+1 or a core team progging Swash, but since you mention AS HM, I'd say around 100k (on a dummy - in actual content I'd expect lower), but I'd prefer to judge performance based on things like % damage done to protectors and minis. If leading, I'd consider people beneath 100k if they are making an effort to learn and improve.

The thing with parsing 100k on a dummy (besides it being a nice round number so kind of appealing), is that most players can reach this threshold even without meta gear and LA weaving. This makes it a good low effort check for whether someone is going to put in much effort or not, and not all leads want to put in more effort than this themselves to work out if someone is a good fit.

What will you need to do vAS prog if PTS goes live as it is? Well, vAS doesn't change, so what you need to prog it doesn't change either. But raid leads' general feelings about what specific dps on a dummy gives a good indication of a player's general competence might well change, and what they ask for might change as a result.

This is something I wish I understood better, or have access to better information. My experience is that those who do not have meta sets or optimised builds cannot breach 70K, let alone 100K. I say this while recognising that this is often low dps in trials and at bottom of the list. Somehow everyone is doing it right, but I cannot figure it out even though my weave is clean.

For reference though I know I can reach higher numbers with meta setup. For example if I add something like Rele I gain 10K for free. If I add curse with pets (sorc) I gain like another 10K. If I change mundus to thief/shadow and add trap I'm suddenly well over 100K, but the build has drastically changed in playstyle at this point. This is why I limit my dd to vet content and just play off-meta, and swap to Healer or Tank for HM DLC content where it tends to be slightly more flexible than parsing in playstyle choices.

I do not expect these numbers to go up either since for now I'm not considering to dip into subclassing just yet.

My experience is that off meta unoptimized builds can definitely get that high but most don’t. I’ve made a bleed-themed nightblade in dro’zakar + pillar of nirn (possibly not best options) that reached 90k at the time and a frost warden in whorl + frostbite that got 100k. I think it’s about synergy of damage alongside recent hard-hitting sets. I will keep on begging ZOS to buff old sets to be more in-line with modern sets. That will raise the floor easily and allow more builds to be viable (like I don’t know how to make a non-HA lightning themed build because all the lightning sets are not good enough).

Kartalin · April 28

There was a cmx posted in one of my discord servers with 307k dps and 87% of damage were crits, Arc/Templar/Necro. Basically abusing the beams with the necro dot passive. I know there are some bugs with certain templar abilities still but Fatecarver alone accounded for 147k dps on the trial atro. Unfortunately the cmx did not include gear but I feel we can safely assume deadly at least.

Orbital78 · April 28

Kartalin wrote: »

There was a cmx posted in one of my discord servers with 307k dps and 87% of damage were crits, Arc/Templar/Necro. Basically abusing the beams with the necro dot passive. I know there are some bugs with certain templar abilities still but Fatecarver alone accounded for 147k dps on the trial atro. Unfortunately the cmx did not include gear but I feel we can safely assume deadly at least.

Were they using the busted barrage?

sarahthes · April 28

Kartalin wrote: »

There was a cmx posted in one of my discord servers with 307k dps and 87% of damage were crits, Arc/Templar/Necro. Basically abusing the beams with the necro dot passive. I know there are some bugs with certain templar abilities still but Fatecarver alone accounded for 147k dps on the trial atro. Unfortunately the cmx did not include gear but I feel we can safely assume deadly at least.

Solar barrage was broken during week one and each time you cast it, it added another stack of its buff. Those numbers weren't real (thankfully).

Kartalin · April 28

Orbital78 wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

There was a cmx posted in one of my discord servers with 307k dps and 87% of damage were crits, Arc/Templar/Necro. Basically abusing the beams with the necro dot passive. I know there are some bugs with certain templar abilities still but Fatecarver alone accounded for 147k dps on the trial atro. Unfortunately the cmx did not include gear but I feel we can safely assume deadly at least.

Were they using the busted barrage?

sarahthes wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

There was a cmx posted in one of my discord servers with 307k dps and 87% of damage were crits, Arc/Templar/Necro. Basically abusing the beams with the necro dot passive. I know there are some bugs with certain templar abilities still but Fatecarver alone accounded for 147k dps on the trial atro. Unfortunately the cmx did not include gear but I feel we can safely assume deadly at least.

Solar barrage was broken during week one and each time you cast it, it added another stack of its buff. Those numbers weren't real (thankfully).

Ahh gotcha, that makes so much more sense now. 48 hits of barrage over the duration of the fight would make quite the boost in damage

Ezhh · April 28

Yudo wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Okay, I’m gonna ask a more specific version of this question:
What is the average dps requirements of most core teams?
What do we think they will be next patch?
For reference, my team is pushing VAS+2 and wants 100k+ Arcs (support DDs obv different)

You can have a core team progging vCR+1 or a core team progging Swash, but since you mention AS HM, I'd say around 100k (on a dummy - in actual content I'd expect lower), but I'd prefer to judge performance based on things like % damage done to protectors and minis. If leading, I'd consider people beneath 100k if they are making an effort to learn and improve.

The thing with parsing 100k on a dummy (besides it being a nice round number so kind of appealing), is that most players can reach this threshold even without meta gear and LA weaving. This makes it a good low effort check for whether someone is going to put in much effort or not, and not all leads want to put in more effort than this themselves to work out if someone is a good fit.

What will you need to do vAS prog if PTS goes live as it is? Well, vAS doesn't change, so what you need to prog it doesn't change either. But raid leads' general feelings about what specific dps on a dummy gives a good indication of a player's general competence might well change, and what they ask for might change as a result.

This is something I wish I understood better, or have access to better information. My experience is that those who do not have meta sets or optimised builds cannot breach 70K, let alone 100K. I say this while recognising that this is often low dps in trials and at bottom of the list. Somehow everyone is doing it right, but I cannot figure it out even though my weave is clean.

For reference though I know I can reach higher numbers with meta setup. For example if I add something like Rele I gain 10K for free. If I add curse with pets (sorc) I gain like another 10K. If I change mundus to thief/shadow and add trap I'm suddenly well over 100K, but the build has drastically changed in playstyle at this point. This is why I limit my dd to vet content and just play off-meta, and swap to Healer or Tank for HM DLC content where it tends to be slightly more flexible than parsing in playstyle choices.

I do not expect these numbers to go up either since for now I'm not considering to dip into subclassing just yet.

You definitely don't need full meta builds to pass 100k. I managed 100k+ on a dummy at around, I think 500CP with Depths + Pillar of Nirn when playing outside my main server. These are decent sets, but AoE not single target focused, so not what you'd want if really tryharding a dummy parse. If I'd had Relequen, and if I'd adjusted my CP a bit, I'd have gone a bit higher with no extra effort. I think I also didn't have a mythic at the time which was another big dps loss.

But dps isn't a simple matter of meta or not meta. There's a whole scale of things between meta (best performance) and absolutely terrible. Ignoring the player skill component to just look at equip/skills/CP/mundus - it all comes down to math. If you are playing an extremely off meta build because you enjoy the theme/feel of it, that's 100% okay, but it's going to become an issue if you also care about your potential dps. Some set ups are simply objectively bad when compared to others at this point.

I wish it wouldn't be the case and that a larger variety of builds would be closer in dps output. It would open things up for more varied playstyles to do well and be accepted at mid level and into early endgame, and it would also help people who value certain themes and playstyles for the fun of them to do better damage without needing to compromise on what they enjoy.

T3vvy · April 29

What damage you 'need' is a really loaded question. Like yes there's a minimum DPS needed to clear certain mechanics, but that's not as relevant as the dps people expect others to come in with. At the end of the day, this is a multiplayer game, and if you are working in a team those other people's opinions do matter, especially if you're going to spend weeks/months playing with them. If you're going for a hard achievement, and you are making sub optimal choices in your build or playstyle, you are actively making things harder for the other 11 people in the group. If your group is fine with that, then that's their choice. But a lot of people won't be, because it feels bad when you're putting in all this effort and someone else is putting in far less, for something that is a joint effort.

T3vvy · April 29

Artim_X wrote: »

On the 3 million HP dummy solo

30K all content
25K Vet DLC dungeons and normal trials
20K Vanilla Vet dungeons and normal trials
15K Normal Dungeons

Using the 3 million HP dummy is a horrible comparison tool, because it favours some classes over others. This is why we use the 21m hp dummy, because everyone gets the same buffs and debuffs.

Also saying that the dps requirement for all content in the game is only double required to clear normal dungeons is insanity, considering you can clear normal dungeons with practically naked.

Artim_X · April 29

T3vvy wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

On the 3 million HP dummy solo

30K all content
25K Vet DLC dungeons and normal trials
20K Vanilla Vet dungeons and normal trials
15K Normal Dungeons

Using the 3 million HP dummy is a horrible comparison tool, because it favours some classes over others. This is why we use the 21m hp dummy, because everyone gets the same buffs and debuffs.

Also saying that the dps requirement for all content in the game is only double required to clear normal dungeons is insanity, considering you can clear normal dungeons with practically naked.

On a trial dummy the values essentially get doubled. If every DPS in a group is doing 60k+ and respecting mechanics all content can be cleared, but you ain't pushing for top of the leaderboard.

I prefer the 3 million dummy for dungeon reference cause even in vet dungeons you're not likely to get all the expected buffs. So the idea is can you bring your A game when you're expected to carry others.

You say you can complete normal dungeons naked which is mostly true for normal vanilla and yet people cry for story mode dungeons due to not having what it takes. I say 15k cause if you're learning the role that is what others at minimum might expect from you and anything less you're essentially spamming bow attacks above the boss' head. I should also specify that normal DLC dungeons would probably be 20k for a somewhat comfortable run.

My number examples are mostly for pug groups in relation to how much you should do and not get kicked. Any decent score pushing guild will have parses shared on discord and they will have their own minimum standard or even expect players to compete with each other for a spot. At that point the answer to the OP's question becomes "more than the other guy."

mdjessup4906 · April 29

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Okay, I’m gonna ask a more specific version of this question:
What is the average dps requirements of most core teams?
What do we think they will be next patch?
For reference, my team is pushing VAS+2 and wants 100k+ Arcs (support DDs obv different)

In my experience:

Reg vet trials 70-90k dps. Lower for training runs higher for farming.

Hard modes 100k or higher. Tris are logs and word of mouth over dummy parse. Lead either knows you and let's you in, someone knows you and convinces lead to let you in, or you can show logs to prove you know the fight. Most common number I've seen in recruitment ads though is 115k fwiw.

Base game vet dungeons 50k or so. Dlc vets and hms, 70-80k. Could probably do with less but will be alot harder on the support. I personally ask for at least 80k for dlc dungeon vets.

All numbers on the iron atro raid dummy btw. The others are not used in standard parses anymore.

wolfie1.0. · April 29

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

More than than the person your guild leader will replace you with in raid.

More than your PvP opponent.

Enough to make up for the low DPS of your groupmates.

It depends.

Pretty much this. The bare minimum DPS required to clear content doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of DPS you're doing relative to everyone else. Keep up or be replaced.

Replace all tanks and healers got it!

sarahthes · April 29

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

More than than the person your guild leader will replace you with in raid.

More than your PvP opponent.

Enough to make up for the low DPS of your groupmates.

It depends.

Pretty much this. The bare minimum DPS required to clear content doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of DPS you're doing relative to everyone else. Keep up or be replaced.

Replace all tanks and healers got it!

I know you're joking, but at the top end tanks and healers are expected to also do damage at least some of the time!

the1andonlyskwex · April 30

sarahthes wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

More than than the person your guild leader will replace you with in raid.

More than your PvP opponent.

Enough to make up for the low DPS of your groupmates.

It depends.

Pretty much this. The bare minimum DPS required to clear content doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of DPS you're doing relative to everyone else. Keep up or be replaced.

Replace all tanks and healers got it!

I know you're joking, but at the top end tanks and healers are expected to also do damage at least some of the time!

Also, healers (in particular) are typically expected to devote most of their efforts into buffing everyone else's DPS, and to that end they're also likely to get forced into whatever subclassing build winds up carrying the most/best DPS buffs. I'm sure something similar will also happen with tanks.

sarahthes · April 30

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

More than than the person your guild leader will replace you with in raid.

More than your PvP opponent.

Enough to make up for the low DPS of your groupmates.

It depends.

Pretty much this. The bare minimum DPS required to clear content doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of DPS you're doing relative to everyone else. Keep up or be replaced.

Replace all tanks and healers got it!

I know you're joking, but at the top end tanks and healers are expected to also do damage at least some of the time!

Also, healers (in particular) are typically expected to devote most of their efforts into buffing everyone else's DPS, and to that end they're also likely to get forced into whatever subclassing build winds up carrying the most/best DPS buffs. I'm sure something similar will also happen with tanks.

On pts I put myself in 5 different synergies as healer, since dps synergies are disappearing.

essi2 · April 30

~35k+ will clear almost anything up to and including Vet DLC dungeons(VDLC HM is a different story) if people play together and have the patience to try a few different approaches to clearing a encounter aka a good group.

At the lower end with 30~35k alot of Vet Dungeons will take quite awhile to clear, especially if both DDs are on the lower end, but it is doable in most cases if the group wants to and the whole group have the ability and willingness to adapt their builds within their playstyle.

Personally my DD builds are anything between 35k and 55k, based on the dummy parses I've saved, dummies aren't the best way to test the effectiveness of your build, but it gives you an idea of where you are at for single target boss fights.. assuming you can stay put in the fight in question..

Ishtarknows · April 30

Artim_X wrote: »

On the 3 million HP dummy solo

30K all content
25K Vet DLC dungeons and normal trials
20K Vanilla Vet dungeons and normal trials
15K Normal Dungeons

*All* Content?

Does your "all" include Dreadsail Reef and Lucent Citadel hard modes? (Not trifectas) because my "all content" I want to complete does. The experience is very different from the normal and basic Veteran versions and imo way more fun. You can do that with 8 DDs each doing 30k on the skeleton dummy? Really?

mdjessup4906 · April 30

Parsing on 3 mil dummy doesn't tell you anything unless your testing pen for a solo build or something. Whenever people say "I do xyz dps" they're talking about the buffed raid dummy. The iron atro, harvester, those ones.

No dummy parse isn't everything, but it does tell you what your build is theoretically capable of under ideal circumstances. For perspective, oakensorc literally only heavy attacking and nothing else can do 50k on the trial dummy. If ones build can't do at least that, I would seriously consider rethinking it.

sarahthes · April 30

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Parsing on 3 mil dummy doesn't tell you anything unless your testing pen for a solo build or something. Whenever people say "I do xyz dps" they're talking about the buffed raid dummy. The iron atro, harvester, those ones.

No dummy parse isn't everything, but it does tell you what your build is theoretically capable of under ideal circumstances. For perspective, oakensorc literally only heavy attacking and nothing else can do 50k on the trial dummy. If ones build can't do at least that, I would seriously consider rethinking it.

The 6m dummy (better than the 3m dummy) is good for testing portal DPS setups for the fights where there's no tank in portal. Sunspire HM comes to mind as the best example.

ApoAlaia · April 30

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Parsing on 3 mil dummy doesn't tell you anything unless your testing pen for a solo build or something. Whenever people say "I do xyz dps" they're talking about the buffed raid dummy. The iron atro, harvester, those ones.

No dummy parse isn't everything, but it does tell you what your build is theoretically capable of under ideal circumstances. For perspective, oakensorc literally only heavy attacking and nothing else can do 50k on the trial dummy. If ones build can't do at least that, I would seriously consider rethinking it.

Parsed 91k with one bar sorc (with cheese build mind you, I can't image anyone equipping highland in actual content) without oakensoul.

These days you are better off not equipping that ring unless well, you want to nerf yourself for some reason.

I'm pretty sure 'crit chasing' you can get a 100k+ parse, I just don't have the patience (or the interest).

Regarding the question in the thread, as much as you can muster.

In many cases the higher the overall DPS the fewer times you have to deal with:

- ****** up mechanics (looking at you Bahsei).
- The chance of dying to the shadow of a nothing.
- Potential '****up cascades'.

Furthermore if you are farming gear definitely as much as you can bring in and then some, no one chooses a 2hr+ trial run for a single piece of gear.

sneakymitchell · May 2

If the content can be simple and easy to clear in under 30 mins then it’s good. Anything else is just for score push or some achievements