sarahthes wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

Given that the Eternal Servant required between 40-50K per person when GS was released that's demonstrably false. It has been nerfed by 10% since then.

People wernt doing 50k when GS came out. 30-35k max

MJallday wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

Given that the Eternal Servant required between 40-50K per person when GS was released that's demonstrably false. It has been nerfed by 10% since then.

People wernt doing 50k when GS came out. 30-35k max

Source, trust me bro

People were doing 100k even back then. Source, ESOlogs

On dummy (note that the Trial Dummy has been given more buffs through out the years):

105k on dummy

In content:

People were doing almost 100k, this of course includes the damage stops which happen during the fight.


Pictures look awful on the forums, open them a new tab if you want to make sense of the numbers

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Okay, I’m gonna ask a more specific version of this question:
What is the average dps requirements of most core teams?
What do we think they will be next patch?
For reference, my team is pushing VAS+2 and wants 100k+ Arcs (support DDs obv different)

Currently I see 100k usually. I think it’ll take a bit for the dps requirements post-patch to settle based on new burn strats and it’s hard to figure out what that number will be considering nerfs are likely impending. I’m not a trial lead though, so take with some grains of salt.

Okay, let's clear some things up.

Firstly, there's a big difference between damage numbers depending on what dummy you're parsing on:

The Precursor has 320k health and 9.1k Armor. Notably, this dummy does not have the Armor of an actual veteran enemy--it has the Armor of an overland enemy. No one actually parses on this, but it can be used to generate Ultimate by attacking it.

A 3 million or 6 million health dummy has 18.2k Armor. These dummies provide you with no buffs and have no debuffs applied. They can be useful tools to test your sustain and your solo damage. However, they're somewhat unrealistic (outside of solo instances, in most cases, you will have a support player providing you buffs and applying debuffs to enemies) and can heavily favor certain classes (for example, Dragonknights' Engulfing Flames makes the target take more Fire Damage; that debuff isn't available to other classes, and in an actual group, the players not using Engulfing Flames benefit more than the user, since they can "free ride" off the damage increase without having to slot the skill).

The trial dummy has 12 million health and 18.2K Armor. Attacking the dummy provides the attacker with several buffs, and the dummy has a lot of debuffs permanently applied. It doesn't have every buff or debuff, and a lot of groups may not have perfect uptimes on their buffs and debuffs. Still, it's the fairest dummy in the sense that you don't need to lose damage to slot debuffs and best simulates an actual raiding environment, so it's the one most raiding groups will require you to submit a parse on.

You also receive the Blessed Shards synergy on cooldown when attacking this dummy.

Secondly, your parse numbers will vary in actual content. A player who can parse 120k will not necessarily hit those numbers consistently in actual content. Your damage numbers will go up the longer you are able to remain attacking the same target, and in some content, you may need to use a heal or a shield to survive. For example, in Sunspire, Yolnahkriin is considered a very "parsey" fight--that is, the DPS generally spend their time parsing instead of having to do mechanics, as if he were a large, scaly target dummy. However, your damage is naturally limited against Yolnahkriin because every 25% of his health, he flies up into the air, resulting in being able to deal no damage to him.

ESO Logs generally shows the average damage of a player across the entire fight, but you can check the graphs to see what it was like at certain points.

Finally, minimum parse requirements are not the minimum damage required to clear content. Think of them as a benchmark of the player's capacity for learning and self-improvement. By parsing and improving your damage numbers, you're demonstrating the ability to ask for and take advice and criticism, as well as a commitment to improvement. You demonstrate a level of competence with your chosen class and with required mechanics like light attack weaving, and it's a heuristic for your actual ability in content, since practicing gives your rotation a degree of muscle memory.

Think of it this way--you could be the most qualified candidate for a job. But if you show up to the interview in shorts and flip-flops, the interviewer will think you're not taking it seriously (and you may have flaunted the dress code).

Raid leads don't set parse requirements because they Hate Fun and Want to Gatekeep You. If someone tried to slip into a core by arguing with the raid lead that their 50k parse is sufficient because "that's all you need to clear," what they've told the raid lead is: I think I should get special treatment and shouldn't have to meet the requirements set for others, I am not committed to learning my role or doing the content necessary to acquire the gear to improve my performance, and if you ask me to do something I will argue vociferously over it.

As an aside, it is also important to learn how to DPS for other roles, like tanking and healing. Learning to DPS will improve your actions per minute (APM) and give you a better idea of how to keep important buffs and debuffs up. It'll also tell you how DPS think, where they usually position themselves, what enemies are most dangerous to someone with lower resistances, when damage taken is highest, etc. DPS are also the most numerous role, making it easier to get into groups to acquire the necessary gear to perform other roles (as a raid lead may be perfectly willing for a more casual run to allow any DPS in who meets the requirements, tanking and healing often require specific sets so that the group has access to certain buffs and debuffs).

gc0018 wrote: »

the number of PVE team exists is only partly depends on difficulty of the content but also depends on how many people willing to organize a team or willing to play in big team. The pool size is fixed in certain way.

So DPS cap is not a hard cap as 100k or 150k, but a percentage cap like top 3% or top 10%.

It's probably a mixture of but you make a good point. People can hit 110k or even 120k on live but requirements are usually 100k.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Okay, let's clear some things up.

Firstly, there's a big difference between damage numbers depending on what dummy you're parsing on:

The Precursor has 320k health and 9.1k Armor. Notably, this dummy does not have the Armor of an actual veteran enemy--it has the Armor of an overland enemy. No one actually parses on this, but it can be used to generate Ultimate by attacking it.

A 3 million or 6 million health dummy has 18.2k Armor. These dummies provide you with no buffs and have no debuffs applied. They can be useful tools to test your sustain and your solo damage. However, they're somewhat unrealistic (outside of solo instances, in most cases, you will have a support player providing you buffs and applying debuffs to enemies) and can heavily favor certain classes (for example, Dragonknights' Engulfing Flames makes the target take more Fire Damage; that debuff isn't available to other classes, and in an actual group, the players not using Engulfing Flames benefit more than the user, since they can "free ride" off the damage increase without having to slot the skill).

The trial dummy has 12 million health and 18.2K Armor. Attacking the dummy provides the attacker with several buffs, and the dummy has a lot of debuffs permanently applied. It doesn't have every buff or debuff, and a lot of groups may not have perfect uptimes on their buffs and debuffs. Still, it's the fairest dummy in the sense that you don't need to lose damage to slot debuffs and best simulates an actual raiding environment, so it's the one most raiding groups will require you to submit a parse on.

You also receive the Blessed Shards synergy on cooldown when attacking this dummy.

Secondly, your parse numbers will vary in actual content. A player who can parse 120k will not necessarily hit those numbers consistently in actual content. Your damage numbers will go up the longer you are able to remain attacking the same target, and in some content, you may need to use a heal or a shield to survive. For example, in Sunspire, Yolnahkriin is considered a very "parsey" fight--that is, the DPS generally spend their time parsing instead of having to do mechanics, as if he were a large, scaly target dummy. However, your damage is naturally limited against Yolnahkriin because every 25% of his health, he flies up into the air, resulting in being able to deal no damage to him.

ESO Logs generally shows the average damage of a player across the entire fight, but you can check the graphs to see what it was like at certain points.

Finally, minimum parse requirements are not the minimum damage required to clear content. Think of them as a benchmark of the player's capacity for learning and self-improvement. By parsing and improving your damage numbers, you're demonstrating the ability to ask for and take advice and criticism, as well as a commitment to improvement. You demonstrate a level of competence with your chosen class and with required mechanics like light attack weaving, and it's a heuristic for your actual ability in content, since practicing gives your rotation a degree of muscle memory.

Think of it this way--you could be the most qualified candidate for a job. But if you show up to the interview in shorts and flip-flops, the interviewer will think you're not taking it seriously (and you may have flaunted the dress code).

Raid leads don't set parse requirements because they Hate Fun and Want to Gatekeep You. If someone tried to slip into a core by arguing with the raid lead that their 50k parse is sufficient because "that's all you need to clear," what they've told the raid lead is: I think I should get special treatment and shouldn't have to meet the requirements set for others, I am not committed to learning my role or doing the content necessary to acquire the gear to improve my performance, and if you ask me to do something I will argue vociferously over it.

As an aside, it is also important to learn how to DPS for other roles, like tanking and healing. Learning to DPS will improve your actions per minute (APM) and give you a better idea of how to keep important buffs and debuffs up. It'll also tell you how DPS think, where they usually position themselves, what enemies are most dangerous to someone with lower resistances, when damage taken is highest, etc. DPS are also the most numerous role, making it easier to get into groups to acquire the necessary gear to perform other roles (as a raid lead may be perfectly willing for a more casual run to allow any DPS in who meets the requirements, tanking and healing often require specific sets so that the group has access to certain buffs and debuffs).

This is all very true, but it does miss the point of the question. Mechanical knowledge/practice is outside the scope of my question, and Let’s use trial dummy because it’s the most accurate and consistent test. What numbers should people be hitting on dummy to go prob hard content? What is expected of dds on average?

the fact is today anyone playing certain roles of dps hit 80k on a dummy with thier eyes closed watching television at the same time having a chat with the family while micro napping (and yes i have actually found myself micro napping through dungeons on occasion ^^) so in a perfect world im gonna say 80k - 85k. theres a big but coming next...and i cant be bothered going into it all ^^ just off the top of my head the team could all post 70k parses and stroll to the clear while a team all signing in at 120k parses simply cannot get the clear. above all enjoying the company of who are playing the game with matters. i for sure would not treat eso like its achievments were like working a full time job, again though as i am always reminding a friend the amount of dps you need is when your playing in a comfortable place with people you enjoy playing the game with

I would say 70k on the trial dummy is the bare minimum to be considered a dps anything less is either lazy or fake dps
anything above 90k is good enough for just about everything outside trifectas

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

This is all very true, but it does miss the point of the question. Mechanical knowledge/practice is outside the scope of my question, and Let’s use trial dummy because it’s the most accurate and consistent test. What numbers should people be hitting on dummy to go prob hard content? What is expected of dds on average?

I could offer my own number, but I think the question in itself needs a more precise scope. What is being grouped under Hard Content? Scalecaller Peak on vet? Fang Lair hard mode? Dawnbringer? Mindmender? And what is the expectation of your raid lead? Are they optimizing the group for a quick, clean clear, or trying to get 11 people their first clear of the content?
Others said it better than me earlier, but there's a bare minimum needed to clear, a range of clear time that's relatively safe and doesn't count as torture for your supports, speed strats to skip mechs because it's easier, and speed strats that get extremely risky but have high reward. "What numbers should people aim to hit to go into hard content" is in itself a huge range and you will get different answers from people with different requirements and experiences.
A number? I want to see people hit 100k before they're going into newer trial hardmodes, minimum. I would accept 80k for vet if they're newer, and less if they still needed gear and the rest of the group knows what they're doing. But a training guild might have lower requirements to lower the barrier to entry. I'm just not running with those groups on the regular to have my preferred requirements that much lower.
I just think those numbers show a willingness to ask questions and a desire to work to improve. That's what I want out of my team members - not just "what is the bare minimum work I need to do to join you?"
(Not to say I think the subclassing sourced insane damage increase is a good thing, I think pure classes shouldn't get left in the dust like they are)

MJallday wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

Given that the Eternal Servant required between 40-50K per person when GS was released that's demonstrably false. It has been nerfed by 10% since then.

People wernt doing 50k when GS came out. 30-35k max

Source, trust me bro

People were doing 100k even back then. Source, ESOlogs

On dummy (note that the Trial Dummy has been given more buffs through out the years):

105k on dummy

In content:

People were doing almost 100k, this of course includes the damage stops which happen during the fight.


Pictures look awful on the forums, open them a new tab if you want to make sense of the numbers

Blimey my memory must be fading . I honestly didn’t think it was that much when SS came out.

The 30-50k era was before we got trial dummies. You had no buffs or debuffs, no templar shards either.
I'd say that 40k from that era would probably translate to at least 70k-ish on iron atro, if not more. So in reality the jump wasn't that huge, it wasn't "30k to 100k".

Another thing worth mentioning is that to get that dps back in the day you had to be really good at your rotation. Dynamic rotation was pretty much required to get 40-50k on the skelly, and your weaving had to be on point (since it was before they nerfed la damage). People with similar skill level are getting 130k atro parses these days. So you can't really compare someone who had 40k back then to someone with 60-70k atro parse in the current patch.

For vSS specifically, there are slow tactics for bosses, but they take like 15 minites per boss (which makes GS impossible) and you still have to deal with portals on the last boss. The miniboss in the portal has like 10 mil hp on hm and you have 90 seconds to kill it so theoretically its beatable with 40k dps. But you'd have to enter the portal the very second it spawns, lose no dps to mechanics (kiting aoes, healing, unpinning teammates) and even then you'd only be able to clear it at the last possible second.

MJallday wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

Given that the Eternal Servant required between 40-50K per person when GS was released that's demonstrably false. It has been nerfed by 10% since then.

People wernt doing 50k when GS came out. 30-35k max

Source, trust me bro

People were doing 100k even back then. Source, ESOlogs

On dummy (note that the Trial Dummy has been given more buffs through out the years):

105k on dummy

In content:

People were doing almost 100k, this of course includes the damage stops which happen during the fight.


Pictures look awful on the forums, open them a new tab if you want to make sense of the numbers

Blimey my memory must be fading . I honestly didn’t think it was that much when SS came out.

The 30-50k era was before we got trial dummies. You had no buffs or debuffs, no templar shards either.
I'd say that 40k from that era would probably translate to at least 70k-ish on iron atro, if not more. So in reality the jump wasn't that huge, it wasn't "30k to 100k".

Another thing worth mentioning is that to get that dps back in the day you had to be really good at your rotation. Dynamic rotation was pretty much required to get 40-50k on the skelly, and your weaving had to be on point (since it was before they nerfed la damage). People with similar skill level are getting 130k atro parses these days. So you can't really compare someone who had 40k back then to someone with 60-70k atro parse in the current patch.

Yeah that trial dummy was a game changer

We are detracting a bit from the OP which is how
Much DPS do you need so I’ll conclude with “the more the better” but you can complete any content in this game with <100k IMO

Well, technically, the highest dps check in game is probably still Xalvakka hm, where every dd need to do 70k+ to avoid drowning in lava. That might not seem like a lot, but that's dps in combat, not on a dummy, and no one is allowed to die in that scenario. Otherwise, there's not many hard dps checks. Non-hm vets are doable with 60-70k or so, if people are not failing mechanics.
But OP was asking how much damage you need to comfortably clear trial and 4 man hms, and for that you definitely need around 100k or more, if we are talking about new dungeons and trials. Maybe in dungeons you can get away with having 3 tanky dds with 1 bar HA builds, but in trials having more dps means less struggle for everyone involved.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I keep seeing a lot of complaints about every dps being forced to run META builds, sacrificing their character’s/build’s/identity’s to hit 171k in PvE content, but that’s just silly.

They are not silly, in fact they are extremely valid complaints.

Extreme DPS requiremens are often, if every rarely ever needed to clear content as you suggested(I do realize there is a threshold that should be met however).

The issue is not really about the DPS itself, but rather the mindset that much of the community have in doing group content as fast and easy as possible, which is why they want stupid amounts of DPS.

The people complaining about sub classing and wanting one bar (oakensoul) builds to be buffed only do so because of past experiences of not being allowed into certain content becasue the raid leader expected dumb amounts of DPS, far beyond what is neccessary. Some, heck many people do not want subclassing. The PTS has already proven them correct in their fears becasue of the changes being done to "pure" classes (major nerfs) in order to accomodate sub classing, outside of the dumb DPS being seen from subclassing.

This means, once again they willl be shunned from content because they choose to play the game "their way", which in the case of playing a class and using nothing but class abilities should be 100% perfectly acceptable in ANY of the content in game. But that is not what is happening, this is why there is such an uproar and why so many have issues with the development of the game lately especially regarding sub-classing.

Necessary is relative. These days it is tied more to what strat the raid lead wants to do than actual hard damage checks. Raid leads are allowed to play the way they want as well.

Ishtarknows wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

People were clearing GS and VCR3 when they were doing 30k dps . It isn’t about DPS. It’s about mechanics

There’s some DPS checks in game but not many

You can clear every peice of content in this game easily with 70k IMO

30k on the fully buffed trial dummy? Or 30k on the 6m skeleton. Massive difference in actual damage output between the two. 30k on the skeleton could be 70k+ on the trial dummy.
And yes, when I was progging EoF the first time 75k DPS (trial dummy) was about the maximum hit in our team and it was doable then (2019 and boss health has been nerfed since then) but the skeleton numbers were closer to 50k.
I disagree with 70k DPS being enough to do every piece of content though. 8 DDs doing 70k each will really struggle in more recent trials' Hard Modes (Not trifectas).
Is Dreadsail HM even possible with that level of DPS?

in Tideborn Taleria hard mode alway need 100(sup dps)-140k(parse dps ) for skip Sirens in 50%(bridge 1)~35%(bridge 2) quick,this time only5-6 dd parse(2~3 go bridge)
if not skip i think group need try clean Sirens ,or lure of the Sea mech killed you healer but it very hard ,because all dd do 70k mean alway have 2 Sea Behemoth kill OT.you not time clean Sirens,and bridge dd will got dmg and lure of the Sea too...

and dont forget bridge have 3 debuff (slow you/remove your ult point/Lower your heal),70k will easy wipe in healer no stam break free and heal broke in long time debuff

For many new players it is nowhere near intuitive to hit 80k dps. A huge % of players (even those trying to build logical optimized stuff) struggle massively to break 50k. Breaking 70k is an accomplishment for most.

The reason? Its difficult and takes a long time to make the money required to improve gear to yellow since the guild traders are hugely over complicated and the stuff to sell is not intuitive without external sites.

Even after you get money, the last steps to yellow out armor and jewelry + to get the needed cp take ages.

And beyond that many many players wont have purchased a target dummy or have joined a guild so they have no way of actually measuring their damage output or are unaware its possible to do so.

Mythics are brutally difficult to find and the system is terribly unintuitive to the point that online guides barely explain it

Long way of saying I think people greatly underestimate how long the average player takes to figure out how to break 50k dps and I would guess the absolute vast majority of the player base is barely above 30-40k.

Its cool because it gives everyone some long term in game goals and incentive to join guilds but for those suggesting 80k-120k I cant emphasize enough how difficult that is to figure out how to do coming in ‘new’.

Once your there and been there awhile it probably feels easy but for those still on the journey it is far from it and often frustrating since its almost always unclear how much each incremental gear improvement is actually helping damage output and the cost to invest in those incremental upgrades is so high even if you max out armor and weapons to yellow once you might not have the coin to experiment further if you messed up any one purchase along the way.

Soarora wrote: »

Dino-Jr wrote: »

For many new players it is nowhere near intuitive to hit 80k dps. A huge % of players (even those trying to build logical optimized stuff) struggle massively to break 50k. Breaking 70k is an accomplishment for most.

The reason? Its difficult and takes a long time to make the money required to improve gear to yellow since the guild traders are hugely over complicated and the stuff to sell is not intuitive without external sites.

Even after you get money, the last steps to yellow out armor and jewelry + to get the needed cp take ages.

And beyond that many many players wont have purchased a target dummy or have joined a guild so they have no way of actually measuring their damage output or are unaware its possible to do so.

Mythics are brutally difficult to find and the system is terribly unintuitive to the point that online guides barely explain it

Long way of saying I think people greatly underestimate how long the average player takes to figure out how to break 50k dps and I would guess the absolute vast majority of the player base is barely above 30-40k.

Its cool because it gives everyone some long term in game goals and incentive to join guilds but for those suggesting 80k-120k I cant emphasize enough how difficult that is to figure out how to do coming in ‘new’.

Once your there and been there awhile it probably feels easy but for those still on the journey it is far from it and often frustrating since its almost always unclear how much each incremental gear improvement is actually helping damage output and the cost to invest in those incremental upgrades is so high even if you max out armor and weapons to yellow once you might not have the coin to experiment further if you messed up any one purchase along the way.

You can also do writs. I’ve never bought upgrade materials but I used to do a lot of writs so I just… have the upgrade mats (plus now also from deconning to an extent).

There is a learning problem and I really think ZOS needs better tutorials to help with that. ZOS should also add ONTO SETS & SKILLS the suggested role and buff useless sets to be more competitive with current sets so you aren’t just throwing by picking up a set that’s not one of the like 30 decent sets.

Building a DPS isn’t hard when you know the basics (divines armor, medium preferred, weapon traits to use, backbar berserker with a ground AoE to proc the enchant, etc). But that information isn’t given by the game and it needs to be.

Writs are definitely on the list of just confusing not highly accessible content that i guarantee many players go years without interacting with given how poorly explained they are.