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The problem with subclassing is they can't roll it back.
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maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's interesting, because we have the same knee jerk reaction just like always happens with a major change. People say the sky is falling, and when it goes Live... nothing. S
That's human nature for you. For years forums have been here for players to vent. And that's mostly about it. There were very very few occasions when the vast majority of players warned devs about critically bad changes - like there was with a Hardened Ward delay that was eventually scraped and left out for good, as an example.
But usually, at the very worst changes are not-so-fun to play live, but eventually that gets ironed out. At best, the changes are good and fun straight from the get go.0 -
Maggusemm✭✭✭it will be a good change to introduce subclassing and enlarging opportunities for all player styles. Even heavy attack builds will become somehow decent again. Together with scribing there are lots of opportunities.
There will be a very hard new trial for the end game community. There will be also a lot more opportunities to fine-tune setups which will be good for the endgame community.
Older trials are somehow nerfed by higher damage available, making this content more accessible for other players.
This is the normal course of nature and also desired. For example, Rockgrove or Lucent Citadel hardmode will be possible for more groups.0 -
moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭barney2525 wrote: »moderatelyfatman wrote: »Absolutely. It's not like if one skill or a new set is unbalanced where you can nerf it without affecting anything else.
If a class which is Arcanist-Nightblade-Templar is seriously overpowered but the pure classes are not, what should ZOS do:
1. Nerf the Arcanist skill line? (never!)
2. Nerf the Nightblade skill line?
3. Nerf the Templar skill line?
4. Nerf all three warden skill lines?
Huh? Why are we picking on the Wardens? They have the friendly fuzzy friend who's only downside is a love for pic-a-nic baskets.
I main on a stamden and it has been continuous nerfs in PvE since hybridization;
1. DK is too strong? Lets change Warden animal passives to reduce damage.
2. Arcanist doing too much AOE damage? Lets nerf Arctic Blast.
etc etc
Stamina Wardens are basically no-existant in endgame PvE.3 -
Dragonredux✭✭✭✭✭DeadlySerious wrote: »I can't think of a single unpopular change ZOS has ever rolled back.
They actually rolled back on the initial light and heavy attack changes a few years ago. Ironically those changes got jammed into a mythic on the current pts now.2 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »Absolutely. It's not like if one skill or a new set is unbalanced where you can nerf it without affecting anything else.
If a class which is Arcanist-Nightblade-Templar is seriously overpowered but the pure classes are not, what should ZOS do:
1. Nerf the Arcanist skill line? (never!)
2. Nerf the Nightblade skill line?
3. Nerf the Templar skill line?
4. Nerf all three warden skill lines?
Nerf Sorc ofc3 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »ImmortalCX wrote: »The only things you pay for in relation to Subclassing are the DLC Classes, if you don't own those yet.
the system itself is base game.
There will be pay mechanism to unlock skill lines that have not been previously leveled. Most players don't have all the classes and skill lines leveled up.
ZOS has not said anything like that. so that's just speculation
It is just speculation. But well reasoned.
What reasons are there for monetisation?miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.0 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »I'm sure they expected more controversy over Subclassing than what they expected over AWA, but it still looks like they failed to anticipate that players would find valid and massive flaws they didn't consider.
I'm not sure ZoS did anticipate the push back on multiclassing due to internal stakeholders on the project likely having confirmation bias among the team and the people they briefed on the feature. They likely also justified the change in their own minds that in Skryim you could be anything you wanted and they've been heavily courting the Skyrim players over the past few years so they likely assumes the change would be greeted with applause instead of equal amounts of applause and trepidation.
Take the new Adobe UI for example. Adobe acts like they didn't anticipate or even care about backlash with employees stating "we'll get used to it". Every time Adobe expands the new UI to a additional users enterprise users flood into their forums saying they can't get work done any longer, it's buggy, unintuitive, and that the new UI is bad and prevents them from doing basic tasks that they did for years. Has Abode rolled it back? No, they added a toggle to use the old UI until they finish the new one likely to quiet the discontent until the old UI is permanently discontinued.1 -
Scaletho✭✭✭✭✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »Absolutely. It's not like if one skill or a new set is unbalanced where you can nerf it without affecting anything else.
If a class which is Arcanist-Nightblade-Templar is seriously overpowered but the pure classes are not, what should ZOS do:
1. Nerf the Arcanist skill line? (never!)
2. Nerf the Nightblade skill line?
3. Nerf the Templar skill line?
4. Nerf all three warden skill lines?
Nerf Nightblade MORE? No, I don't agree. Templar is another problem. Right now Templars are the strongest so A LITTLE nerf will be acceptable.
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Maggusemm✭✭✭subclassing is a great idea offering a lot of potential. This will increase players fun and also the playerbase.2
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Desiato✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭thinkaboutit wrote: »What is going to happen to all the old endgame content when subclass goes live... i predict it will be trivialized into oblivion with 190k+ damage per dps
The proponents of this change are lobbying hard against any proposed brakes on it, so that does seem likely to be the outcome. I've been through that in a couple games now (the Oppressor Mk. II in GTA:O and legacy energy weapons in FO76) and have no desire to repeat the experience—I'll probably just login to do writs and log out if this goes live as-is.
This has happened to ESO itself many times before. Older trials are already trivialized.
Crag delves in 2014 were tougher than base game vet dungeons today. So were normal dungeons!
I'm no expert in the history of Trials, but vMoL in 2016 was probably tougher than anything in the game today.
The original implementation of vMA must have been 10x more difficult than it is today!
ZOS doesn't care about power creep because its target audience of single player Skyrim fans apparently love what they call "power fantasies". That older content will become more accessible will be seen as a benefit within ZOS.
With all that said, because we've been here before, we have good reason to believe it's all going to work out OK. Though I don't see eye to eye with their execs, ZOS has some very talented designers who are good at math who get us through these upheavals.
And what about the end game community? It's going to be the same thing. There are the lifers who will be slow to leave, sustaining the community while the rest of us dip in and out out of boredom and frustration. IMO.
While I don't like the gameplay changes in u46, what worries me the most are the business model changes. If the community supports them, I think it will be a slippery slope of reduced value.
Edited by Desiato on 21 April 2025 18:08spending a year dead for tax reasons1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭ImmortalCX wrote: »It has a pay component, so once players spend money to do it, they can't roll it back.
With most bugs or imbalances, there is the expectation that it will eventually get fixed. But I can't remember any game breaking issues that were pay features.
The ominous feeling is not only because it is a seismic change, but also because it is a pay feature. If it is terrible and imbalanced, they can't just turn it off.
OP does have a good point. This is a pandora's box so to speak if they go down this road, and it is not something that can easily be undone. If you do this, and it turns out to be really bad for the game, then you cannot simply undo it. You will instead see nerfs to various class skill lines in an attempt to control things, and we'll just be in a big downward nerf cycle. Or they will nerf subclassing to the point that it is absolutely pointless.
Honestly, it would be preferable to just let people have class change tokens, as the biggest benefit of subclassing is to those who only want to play just one character, but feel like they made the wrong character choice. Subclassing lets them lessen the blow of that choice so to speak - but they could just buy a class change token instead if that is how they want to experience the game.1 -
Grizzbeorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »OP does have a good point. This is a pandora's box so to speak if they go down this road, and it is not something that can easily be undone. If you do this, and it turns out to be really bad for the game, then you cannot simply undo it.
No, he does not.
He is only GUESSING that it will at some point have a pay component to it.
But right now, it does not. It's a base-game addition; you do not need to make a purchase to access it.4 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Toughness wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »They can not put it live. Like they did with the U35 changes which drove away a large amount of the end-game player base.
Unfortunately the damage was done as soon as it went on PTS, people lost faith in ZoS and the direct of the game.
It's a shame they were right.
Funny, because the opposite can be said as well... that players who left will return and new players will come in because of having more options to play it LIKE Skyrim- which doesn't have solid classes. I know I'm coming back SOLELY because of subclassing... I left because I grew tired of playing the same stale classes.
It's interesting, because we have the same knee jerk reaction just like always happens with a major change. People say the sky is falling, and when it goes Live... nothing. Sure, some people leave- but overall- they probably would have left anyway. I left many times, but I also returned several times over the years. This last time I thought it was for good, now with subclassing, I actually have incentive to return.
What are you talking about, they will return?
Like 50 people on the friends list haven't logged in since U35. I still speak to some of them on discord and they have zero interest in ever playing again. People I played with for 6-7 years. This update will have the same effect, just smaller and the current playerbase is smaller.
This to a T. I have so many friends who have stopped playing since U35. So many guilds and cores I was a part of stopped post U35. I'm not a fan of subclassing because I am a big fan of class identity but I think I might be in the minority here. In my opinion when subclassing launches it's going to have a massive impact on PvP and people are going to get steam rolled.
There is going to be a group of people who are going to stop playing because of this change and never come back. I don't see this change brining many people back (aside from the usual short term increase massive updates always see).LadyGP/xCatGuy
PC/NA
Having network issues? Discconects? DM me and I will help you troubleshoot with PingPlotter to figure out what is going on.2 -
Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Major_Toughness wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »They can not put it live. Like they did with the U35 changes which drove away a large amount of the end-game player base.
Unfortunately the damage was done as soon as it went on PTS, people lost faith in ZoS and the direct of the game.
It's a shame they were right.
Funny, because the opposite can be said as well... that players who left will return and new players will come in because of having more options to play it LIKE Skyrim- which doesn't have solid classes. I know I'm coming back SOLELY because of subclassing... I left because I grew tired of playing the same stale classes.
It's interesting, because we have the same knee jerk reaction just like always happens with a major change. People say the sky is falling, and when it goes Live... nothing. Sure, some people leave- but overall- they probably would have left anyway. I left many times, but I also returned several times over the years. This last time I thought it was for good, now with subclassing, I actually have incentive to return.
What are you talking about, they will return?
Like 50 people on the friends list haven't logged in since U35. I still speak to some of them on discord and they have zero interest in ever playing again. People I played with for 6-7 years. This update will have the same effect, just smaller and the current playerbase is smaller.
so true, my friends list is like a graveyard.
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Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »moderatelyfatman wrote: »Absolutely. It's not like if one skill or a new set is unbalanced where you can nerf it without affecting anything else.
If a class which is Arcanist-Nightblade-Templar is seriously overpowered but the pure classes are not, what should ZOS do:
1. Nerf the Arcanist skill line? (never!)
2. Nerf the Nightblade skill line?
3. Nerf the Templar skill line?
4. Nerf all three warden skill lines?
Nerf Sorc ofc
without fail.
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BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grizzbeorn wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »OP does have a good point. This is a pandora's box so to speak if they go down this road, and it is not something that can easily be undone. If you do this, and it turns out to be really bad for the game, then you cannot simply undo it.
No, he does not.
He is only GUESSING that it will at some point have a pay component to it.
But right now, it does not. It's a base-game addition; you do not need to make a purchase to access it.
I was talking big picture, not about changes to your character.
Big picture, if you roll out subclassing and it turns out to be a big mistake, its not like they can say "okay, subclassing was a mistake, we're removing it from the game." Similar to scribing, once it is in the game, we're stuck with it, and then all they can do to really balance it out is use nerfs/buffs to try to get a handle on balancing, and as with Scribing, you can imagine that they will nerf things out of relevance.
Overall, I think that subclassing will be initially fun because of all the broken combinations you can come up with - but as they start to nerf things in an effort to gain control over the game balancing again, I am concerned that they will end up ruining the game.
The bottom line is that this game is not D&D. And it's not Skyrim or Oblivion where you just play one single character. Having varieties of classes that provide a wide variety of group buffs are pillars of fundamental gameplay for this game, and implementing something that undermines that is a potential (and serious) threat to the survival of your game. This feels like something tossed into the game in a desperate move to keep the game relevant and a less well-thought out change to the game.4 -
Desiato✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ImmortalCX wrote: »Every dungeon group will be multiple hybrid tank/dps with self healing.
Players can do that now and it would be a bad dungeon group.spending a year dead for tax reasons1 -
Warhawke_80✭✭✭✭✭
✭The could do a classic megaserver..I mean it's highly impractical but they "could"
In any event I think subclassing is awesome it is much more in keeping with actual TES games and being an Old School D&D player I like how it opens up the character possibilities... I am especially eager to see what Ranger and Summoner type builds I can create.““Elric knew. The sword told him, without words of any sort. Stormbringer needed to fight, for that was its reason for existence...”― Michael Moorcock, Elric of Melniboné0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »Absolutely. It's not like if one skill or a new set is unbalanced where you can nerf it without affecting anything else.
If a class which is Arcanist-Nightblade-Templar is seriously overpowered but the pure classes are not, what should ZOS do:
1. Nerf the Arcanist skill line? (never!)
2. Nerf the Nightblade skill line?
3. Nerf the Templar skill line?
4. Nerf all three warden skill lines?
I started a thread on this subject. People probably won't like the answer I came up with.
On the subject of this one, once you've promised your players a shiny new toy, it'll cause major drama if you don't deliver. They're committed.
Not for nothing, but it is also worth remembering that light attack weaving was never intended. It was a bug that ZOS leaned into rather than fixed. While that was many moons ago, I'm concerned that mindset still exists. It is such a running joke in-game that there are no bugs only features.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Warhawke_80 wrote: »The could do a classic megaserver..I mean it's highly impractical but they "could"
In any event I think subclassing is awesome it is much more in keeping with actual TES games and being an Old School D&D player I like how it opens up the character possibilities... I am especially eager to see what Ranger and Summoner type builds I can create.
I would love classic ESO server, so long as we can still have our current loot pools. Same items that we have in game as of right now, but with separate metas for mag and stam, that would be amazing!0
