ImmortalCX wrote: »

It has a pay component, so once players spend money to do it, they can't roll it back.

It's a base game feature (free), so I'm not following.

Absolutely. It's not like if one skill or a new set is unbalanced where you can nerf it without affecting anything else.
If a class which is Arcanist-Nightblade-Templar is seriously overpowered but the pure classes are not, what should ZOS do:
1. Nerf the Arcanist skill line? (never!)
2. Nerf the Nightblade skill line?
3. Nerf the Templar skill line?
4. Nerf all three warden skill lines?

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Absolutely. It's not like if one skill or a new set is unbalanced where you can nerf it without affecting anything else.
If a class which is Arcanist-Nightblade-Templar is seriously overpowered but the pure classes are not, what should ZOS do:
1. Nerf the Arcanist skill line? (never!)
2. Nerf the Nightblade skill line?
3. Nerf the Templar skill line?
4. Nerf all three warden skill lines?

I started a thread on this subject. People probably won't like the answer I came up with.

On the subject of this one, once you've promised your players a shiny new toy, it'll cause major drama if you don't deliver. They're committed.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

The only things you pay for in relation to Subclassing are the DLC Classes, if you don't own those yet.
the system itself is base game.

There will be pay mechanism to unlock skill lines that have not been previously leveled.

You don't know that.

Nothing will change with my game because I will never subclass or purchase new content. I will just play what we have now.

I would be surprised that the fact that some people pay for something mean this thing will never get rollbacked, and offered for free, or at some kind of discounted price / alternate way. Sure this will cause some backlash, but they surely know how to endure that.

If you pay for something, especialy something you absolutely don't earn, don't expect it to retain eternaly it's value. Hell it's even true for materials things.

Beyond all these arguments, just by the way ZOS does things, they never announce anything until they've sunk so many man-hours into something that it would be a major loss of investment to roll back.

I wish they would have learned their lesson from Account Wide Achievements, where people who hated character specific achievements complained for years while people happy with the system said nothing, ZOS completely failed to take into account the "squeaky wheel" phenomenon and made a massive investment into a system they expected to be overwhelmingly popular--only to find that the community was split right down the middle.

What they should have done, what they always should have been doing when introducing such a fundamental change, is soliciting feedback in the pre-development phase. Not only do players have a different but valid perspective from developers, but they find flaws developers miss--from the Morrowind sustain changes right up to the latest updates, players find flaws the devs miss. The fact that they still will not behave as if this indisputable fact were true is a big part of why they have a reputation for having an ego problem.

I'm sure they expected more controversy over Subclassing than what they expected over AWA, but it still looks like they failed to anticipate that players would find valid and massive flaws they didn't consider.

If they'd reached out to us during the planning and discussion phase of this like they 100% should have, players could have suggested strategies that would have been better for balance, better for class identity, better for comprehensibility than the absolute mess we're about to get.

But treating us like we know what we're talking about would require a sea-change at ZOS's corporate culture.

The only problem is the need for a few more balancing adjustments, the system is a great improvement, more options, more room for creativity, more fun.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

The only things you pay for in relation to Subclassing are the DLC Classes, if you don't own those yet.
the system itself is base game.

There will be pay mechanism to unlock skill lines that have not been previously leveled. Most players don't have all the classes and skill lines leveled up.

Did you watch the stream? They said there are TWO ways to unlock it... one is having an alt that already has the skill line, and the other way is through a new 'subclassing' system made for players who don't have all the skill lines unlocked on alts. So this has already been addressed by ZOS.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

It has a pay component, so once players spend money to do it, they can't roll it back.

With most bugs or imbalances, there is the expectation that it will eventually get fixed. But I can't remember any game breaking issues that were pay features.

The ominous feeling is not only because it is a seismic change, but also because it is a pay feature. If it is terrible and imbalanced, they can't just turn it off.

Why would they roll it back? To me this statement is just painting imaginary devils on the walls.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

The only things you pay for in relation to Subclassing are the DLC Classes, if you don't own those yet.
the system itself is base game.

There will be pay mechanism to unlock skill lines that have not been previously leveled. Most players don't have all the classes and skill lines leveled up.

There will be a quest mechanism to unlock skill lines for classes you haven't levelled to 50. Any you have levelled to 50 will be accessible straight away once you unlock the system (you may need to level them again specifically for subclassing but once you do that is account progress), but the only "paid for component" to expect is that you won't be able to get Necromancer or Arcanist skill lines without owning those classes.

Just because sub-classing is being added into the game dosen't mean you need to actually do it on your characters ...

cryptiecopb14_ESO wrote: »

Just because sub-classing is being added into the game dosen't mean you need to actually do it on your characters ...

As already noted, Sorc is already being completely reworked as a result of this new system. Three other classes (Dragonknight, Nightblade, and Templar) don't have skill trees that neatly divide into the "DPS, healer, tank/utility" system. So, that's potentially 4/7 of the classes in this game seeing big alterations as a result of subclassing, without us doing anything.

ADarklore wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

They can not put it live. Like they did with the U35 changes which drove away a large amount of the end-game player base.
Unfortunately the damage was done as soon as it went on PTS, people lost faith in ZoS and the direct of the game.
It's a shame they were right.

Funny, because the opposite can be said as well... that players who left will return and new players will come in because of having more options to play it LIKE Skyrim- which doesn't have solid classes. I know I'm coming back SOLELY because of subclassing... I left because I grew tired of playing the same stale classes.

It's interesting, because we have the same knee jerk reaction just like always happens with a major change. People say the sky is falling, and when it goes Live... nothing. Sure, some people leave- but overall- they probably would have left anyway. I left many times, but I also returned several times over the years. This last time I thought it was for good, now with subclassing, I actually have incentive to return.

What are you talking about, they will return?

Like 50 people on the friends list haven't logged in since U35. I still speak to some of them on discord and they have zero interest in ever playing again. People I played with for 6-7 years. This update will have the same effect, just smaller and the current playerbase is smaller.