A possible major design issue with Subclassing

laniakea_0 · April 23

This is in reference to changes like this one from the PTS patch notes v11.0.0:

Skill Lines:
Sorcerer:
Daedric Summoning:
General Skill Line: We’re removing the separation of a pet vs no pet build in this skill line now that sub-classing is here. Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line as a whole. Many abilities in this skill line have been adjusted with this in mind.

I think it's a big mistake to alter skill lines in such a game changing way with the justification that you can just "get rid of it" if you don't like it. This actively damages class identity. Subclassing, which is really multi-classing if we're being honest, should only be an augmentation to gameplay, not something that needs existing skill lines to be fundamentally changed. It depends a lot on execution and it might even turn out to be a positive change in this case specifically but I would be very cautious about doing this type of change in general. It's a bad idea and I think ZOS should really reconsider this approach. How do you guys feel about it?

Juju_beans · April 23

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

ADarklore · April 23

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

And yet, this is an MMO, and MMO's tend to change over time. It has happened NUMEROUS times in ESO. Classes get nerfed, then buffed months or years later. Nobody is forcing you to change your class, they may be nerfing/changing/buffing some class skills or passives- but that is not 'changing your class identity'. You can still play that class fully, but expecting an MMO to stay stale just because you don't like change, that's bad for many players AND the longevity of the game itself.

reazea · April 23

ADarklore wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

And yet, this is an MMO, and MMO's tend to change over time. It has happened NUMEROUS times in ESO. Classes get nerfed, then buffed months or years later. Nobody is forcing you to change your class, they may be nerfing/changing/buffing some class skills or passives- but that is not 'changing your class identity'. You can still play that class fully, but expecting an MMO to stay stale just because you don't like change, that's bad for many players AND the longevity of the game itself.

Stale is not a problem ESO suffers from. ESO suffers from poorly thought out and implemented changes like subclassing. Time will tell. The player population has been suffering very noticeably since AWA's, U35 and it's already taken another hit that will become more obvious after subclassing goes live.

Juju_beans · April 23

ADarklore wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

And yet, this is an MMO, and MMO's tend to change over time. It has happened NUMEROUS times in ESO. Classes get nerfed, then buffed months or years later. Nobody is forcing you to change your class, they may be nerfing/changing/buffing some class skills or passives- but that is not 'changing your class identity'. You can still play that class fully, but expecting an MMO to stay stale just because you don't like change, that's bad for many players AND the longevity of the game itself.

That's ok. I know that's what games do. I'll give this subclassing a try. If I like I'll play. If not I'll find another game.
That's how I got here to begin with playing ESO.

Blizzard's WoW went through a lot of changes over the years and I stayed playing until Legion came out in 2016.
Sometime after that I moved over to ESO and have been here ever since.

I'm not complaining at all. Just giving my opinion and how I reacted to drastic changes in other games.

LunaFlora · April 24

now read this week's patch notes as they reacted to player feedback.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676794/pts-patch-notes-v11-0-1#latest

• Sorcerer
• Daedric Summoning

• Daedric Protection: Fixed an issue where this passive would not activate when using Bound Armor or its morphs.
Expert Summoner: This passive’s increase to your Max Magicka and Stamina no longer require a permanent pet to be active to gain their benefits, but Max Health does still require this condition to be met.

[Developer Comment]
Spoiler

Based on a lot of the initial feedback we’ve seen, there were some very good cases about how walking this passive back to a pet-build hurt those who don't want to subclass. While we are still going to keep Daedric Summoning focused on what the name implies, we do realize we can still account for the fact not every ability in this skill line is about summoning.
In this case, the passive will be slightly less dense than something like Magicka Flood while offering a potential advantage if you lean further into the skill line.
This exact solution isn't something we can apply everywhere (largely because this split can lead to a significant amount of performance drain), but it is something that works in this case where we are gaining something both for players and the servers.

ADarklore · April 24

reazea wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

And yet, this is an MMO, and MMO's tend to change over time. It has happened NUMEROUS times in ESO. Classes get nerfed, then buffed months or years later. Nobody is forcing you to change your class, they may be nerfing/changing/buffing some class skills or passives- but that is not 'changing your class identity'. You can still play that class fully, but expecting an MMO to stay stale just because you don't like change, that's bad for many players AND the longevity of the game itself.

Stale is not a problem ESO suffers from. ESO suffers from poorly thought out and implemented changes like subclassing. Time will tell. The player population has been suffering very noticeably since AWA's, U35 and it's already taken another hit that will become more obvious after subclassing goes live.

Personally, I didn't notice any population difference after AWA, all I noticed was a lot of complaining... and many of those complaining are still here on the forums.

STALE is the reason "I" left ESO a year ago. I grew tired of the same classes, the same skills, for almost ten years- give or take leaving and returning a few times. I always said, "I wish I could combine these skills with this class, it would be perfect"... and soon, I will be able to.

What I am seeing, is a lot of 'confirmation bias'. People that don't like the idea, or think it's going to be bad, ONLY believe those who say it's bad or also believe it's going to be bad. They completely ignore all those who are excited for it and think it'll bring players- like myself- back to the game because of all the possibilities and options.

laniakea_0 · April 24

LunaFlora wrote: »

now read this week's patch notes as they reacted to player feedback.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676794/pts-patch-notes-v11-0-1#latest

• Sorcerer
• Daedric Summoning

• Daedric Protection: Fixed an issue where this passive would not activate when using Bound Armor or its morphs.
Expert Summoner: This passive’s increase to your Max Magicka and Stamina no longer require a permanent pet to be active to gain their benefits, but Max Health does still require this condition to be met.

[Developer Comment]
Spoiler

Based on a lot of the initial feedback we’ve seen, there were some very good cases about how walking this passive back to a pet-build hurt those who don't want to subclass. While we are still going to keep Daedric Summoning focused on what the name implies, we do realize we can still account for the fact not every ability in this skill line is about summoning.
In this case, the passive will be slightly less dense than something like Magicka Flood while offering a potential advantage if you lean further into the skill line.
This exact solution isn't something we can apply everywhere (largely because this split can lead to a significant amount of performance drain), but it is something that works in this case where we are gaining something both for players and the servers.

that's something at least. but I still worry that they might not ditch the approach altogether.

BXR_Lonestar · April 25

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

They seem to be going the way of eliminating class identity, which I think is a big mistake. I don't know who wants this - whether it be the Elder Scrolls Purists, who aren't really used to "class" selection being a major choice in the single-player versions of this game, or if its the people who only want to play one character/class in ESO and feel stuck with their choice (no class change tokens), but either way, I'm highly skeptical that this is going to be a good change for the game in the long-term. Short-term, it is going to be completely broken, and it will be a good time for those who can figure out the most ridiculously unbalanced builds - for PVP and PVE.

But in the long-term, they are going to need to be heavy handed with the nerf hammer to maintain any semblance of balance with this game, which will definitely not be good for the game IMO, and you will also have further narrowing of the meta. Right now, there are meta races, meta classes, but they all run the same meta gear thanks to hybridization (squishing mag and stam meta's together basically). Now subclassing will lead to further narrowing of the metas because players will select only the most optimal combinations of class skill lines for their chosen roles.

That will basically leave the ONLY difference between characters to be their chosen races. So who else foresees a great watering down of racial passives in our future?

Oblivion_Protocol · April 26

Let me ask a question. Take a look at this list of skills and gear:

- Dizzying Swing or Arterial Burst/Blood for Blood
- Executioner or Whirlwind
- Dawnbreaker
- Resolving Vigor
- A one-button armor skill
- A one-button burst heal skill

- Rallying Cry or Wretched Vitality
- Oakfather’s, Essence Thief, or Mechanical Acuity
- Balorgh
- Saint and Seducer, Markyn Ring, or Death Dealer’s Fete

After looking at that list, tell me. What class am I playing?

If your answer is “any of them except maybe NB”, congratulations, you now understand why class identity has been dead for a long time in this game.

Sure, every class has one, two, or even three defining abilities that make them slightly unique. But we’re in a situation where, yes, I can play Sorcerer as the ultimate arcane caster, slinging magic from a distance and conjuring demons to do my bidding. But I can also swing a huge sword, don heavy armor, wade into battle with 40K+ HP, and be just as effective, if not more.

Try that in D&D, and you’ll have a bad time. In ESO, any class can do and be anything. Some classes may be marginally better, but at the end of the day, (not counting score pushing in endgame trials) the number difference isn’t high enough to justify sticking to one class for a specific thing because that’s what it does better than anyone else.

Sabre · April 27

Maybe they shouldn't make any changes to classes and just roll out subclassing and see how it goes. Subclassing isn't really subclassing if the pure classes are now going to be nerfed and buffed to allow for subclassing while injuring the actual pure class only build. Making any changes to existing classes is going to REQUIRE one to subclass.

Of course, i am making the argument that the hybridization of mag/stam and wpn/spell damage should be eliminated with subclassing. If hybridization were removed, and things were reverted back to separate mag/stam and wpn/spl dmg, the changes being made to classes to accommodate subclassing may not be as necessary.

I thought game issues and things were going to be addressed in this next update where they are not making a new 'chapter'. Subclassing is an immense change that is going to be a constant problem to be resolved. Subclassing sounds fun, and that curiosity bug gets the best of one to think of all the possibilities...but under the initial curiosity...sort of like that curiosity one gets when driving by a car wreck...something under the surface feels very bad about it. One finds it tough to argue against those that want to maintain the purity of the classes and denounce subclassing. Subclassing feels like a change that is too large and over the top to really comprehend without thinking about it from a the business standpoint as a simple way to make more money without any care with regard the dumbing down and ruining of the purity of a game for the sake of making some more dough. Maybe instead of slaughtering the game with these kinds of changes, they could make a new ESO 2 with a new engine, graphics, and change entire system as a whole...whether it be classless or whatever. One can't think that the devs don't rattle about the limitiations of this class and skill system and the bloated class set structure etc. Just a thought! Not trashing the game overall!!

Sabre · April 27

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

They seem to be going the way of eliminating class identity, which I think is a big mistake. I don't know who wants this - whether it be the Elder Scrolls Purists, who aren't really used to "class" selection being a major choice in the single-player versions of this game, or if its the people who only want to play one character/class in ESO and feel stuck with their choice (no class change tokens), but either way, I'm highly skeptical that this is going to be a good change for the game in the long-term. Short-term, it is going to be completely broken, and it will be a good time for those who can figure out the most ridiculously unbalanced builds - for PVP and PVE.

But in the long-term, they are going to need to be heavy handed with the nerf hammer to maintain any semblance of balance with this game, which will definitely not be good for the game IMO, and you will also have further narrowing of the meta. Right now, there are meta races, meta classes, but they all run the same meta gear thanks to hybridization (squishing mag and stam meta's together basically). Now subclassing will lead to further narrowing of the metas because players will select only the most optimal combinations of class skill lines for their chosen roles.

That will basically leave the ONLY difference between characters to be their chosen races. So who else foresees a great watering down of racial passives in our future?

Yes - you make some great points. The subclassing idea is an illusion of choice that will in the end only narrow things down more. Hybridization already did this and ruined alot. This is going to be even worse. Would much rather see new armor types, weapon types, etc. that actually add something new to the game rather than turn the classes into a candy store of skills.

huskandhunger · April 27

aurrooo

Miracle19 · April 27

reazea wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm not a competitive end game player. I'm the casual player that likes the lore and class identity.

Not only for the above skill line you mentioned but for all the skill lines for all the characters.

Will there even be "class identity" when you can take sills from other classes and use them yourself ?
Something similar happened to another game I played for a long time. One by one I stopped playing my alts and eventually stopped playing my main....all because they were not the characters I had created a decade earlier...not even close

And yet, this is an MMO, and MMO's tend to change over time. It has happened NUMEROUS times in ESO. Classes get nerfed, then buffed months or years later. Nobody is forcing you to change your class, they may be nerfing/changing/buffing some class skills or passives- but that is not 'changing your class identity'. You can still play that class fully, but expecting an MMO to stay stale just because you don't like change, that's bad for many players AND the longevity of the game itself.

Stale is not a problem ESO suffers from. ESO suffers from poorly thought out and implemented changes like subclassing. Time will tell. The player population has been suffering very noticeably since AWA's, U35 and it's already taken another hit that will become more obvious after subclassing goes live.

Yeah, unfortunately we are approaching the end of ESO. This is an attempt to revitalize the game, but it will in fact do the exact opposite. Clear and easy paths to revitalize it, such as adding more competitive content(reason to play), merging platforms(pc/console) for larger player base, new classes or skill lines, were all ditched or maybe overlooked.

Subclassing will change the way that the game is played and “balanced”, and usually when a change this significant happens, the game is on a timer for death

Miracle19 · April 27

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Let me ask a question. Take a look at this list of skills and gear:

- Dizzying Swing or Arterial Burst/Blood for Blood
- Executioner or Whirlwind
- Dawnbreaker
- Resolving Vigor
- A one-button armor skill
- A one-button burst heal skill

- Rallying Cry or Wretched Vitality
- Oakfather’s, Essence Thief, or Mechanical Acuity
- Balorgh
- Saint and Seducer, Markyn Ring, or Death Dealer’s Fete

After looking at that list, tell me. What class am I playing?

If your answer is “any of them except maybe NB”, congratulations, you now understand why class identity has been dead for a long time in this game.

Sure, every class has one, two, or even three defining abilities that make them slightly unique. But we’re in a situation where, yes, I can play Sorcerer as the ultimate arcane caster, slinging magic from a distance and conjuring demons to do my bidding. But I can also swing a huge sword, don heavy armor, wade into battle with 40K+ HP, and be just as effective, if not more.

Try that in D&D, and you’ll have a bad time. In ESO, any class can do and be anything. Some classes may be marginally better, but at the end of the day, (not counting score pushing in endgame trials) the number difference isn’t high enough to justify sticking to one class for a specific thing because that’s what it does better than anyone else.

This could be true for casual gameplay. But is it best to balance a game around casuals or is it better to balance around the top echelon?

In score pushing PVE and the most competitive PVP such as organized BGs or GVG, this is absolutely not the case. Certain classes are needed due to the abilities that they bring to the table. In fact, you use significantly less weapon skills and more class skills when you are min-maxing a group composition.

Remember, casuals play the game the easiest way. Meaning the easiest builds to put together, learn and become effective with. Top echelon play the game the most effective way. Abusing the best skill and class combinations via math and group idea composition.

With that being said, how does Subclassing not make the options even more limited and maybe more unbalanced without destroying class identity/ class strength?

Oblivion_Protocol · April 29

Miracle19 wrote: »

This could be true for casual gameplay. But is it best to balance a game around casuals or is it better to balance around the top echelon?

In score pushing PVE and the most competitive PVP such as organized BGs or GVG, this is absolutely not the case. Certain classes are needed due to the abilities that they bring to the table. In fact, you use significantly less weapon skills and more class skills when you are min-maxing a group composition.

Remember, casuals play the game the easiest way. Meaning the easiest builds to put together, learn and become effective with. Top echelon play the game the most effective way. Abusing the best skill and class combinations via math and group idea composition.

With that being said, how does Subclassing not make the options even more limited and maybe more unbalanced without destroying class identity/ class strength?

Yes, that’s why I said “not counting score pushing in endgame trials”. But that is a small subset of the game. And frankly, that crowd isn’t nearly as concerned with class identity as others, anyway. For them, it’s about ‘skill utility’ rather than ‘class identity’. Whatever skills hit the hardest, heal the most, and gives the best defense are the ones they choose. The classes that have those abilities are needed because of those abilities, not their class.