Change from 2 to 1 Skill lines on subclasses

Stensaxpannk · April 22

As the title said.
2 Skill line changes is to much makes to much difference, 2 much power and kinda take away classes.

GloatingSwine · April 22

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

Yeah, swapping out only one skill line would mean the system would feel like actually having a main and sub class and also mean there would be a lot less scope for degenerate three class combos that need all of the class lines to be nerfed into the ground in order to rein them in (thereby making those combos mandatory if you want to have damage and/or sustain).

Erickson9610 · April 22

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

How will we get to play an elementalist if we can't have Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame together?

tomofhyrule · April 22

Honestly, I’d unleash it totally and let someone swap all three, and allow multiple from the same parent class. Go ahead and give them a Class Change in all but name.

But.

Seriously balance this. I’d think that a “while having a [Class] ability slotted/after using a [Class] ability” caveat would really help (and would technically shadow-buff players who choose not to subclass by allowing the passives to proc from any of the three lines, but someone who only has one NB line needs to use those skills to proc the passives).

I just don’t think a pure class should be forced to subclass. Sure, optimizing a build to get maybe 5-10% more power by becoming a glass cannon is one thing, but if we’re talking about a power differential of 50% or more, that’s a very big problem.

katorga · April 22

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

Allow all three so we can class swap.

Navaac223 · April 22

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

Here's what's going to happen if it's only 1 tree :

pve:
Everyone picks herald of the tome except arc, who can grab corpseburster. There's no reason to take anything else as fatecarver is beyond OP. This means that we're back to an arc meta where everyone is on the same class

pvp:
Everyone takes assassination. I don't think I have to elaborate too much on how this is going to get very boring very fast in cyrodiil

These problems are going to be here with 2 trees too but at least you have 1 more tree to try out different builds with

AdmiralDigby · April 22

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

Stensaxpannk wrote: »

As the title said.
2 Skill line changes is to much makes to much difference, 2 much power and kinda take away classes.

I'm sure if ZOS was going to add a mythic called the "cheat code" that gave players 1000% more DMG. People would vote to keep that as well.

1 Skill line swap should have been the plan from the get go. Preserves class identity, reduces bugs, reduces insane power creep. Still offers insane flexibility compared to UD 45. Problem is now if they dial it back to 1 from 2. People will cry. Which honestly they should do anyways. People don't know whats good for them. This is true for the vast majority of people.

Cooperharley · April 22

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

[PvE perspective and background here]

More skill lines open = closer to main line elder scrolls game, more sandboxy, etc. I understand there's a META for sure, but I'm cool running off-META stuff and this gives me more customization options for solo play and then when I'm running difficult end game stuff ill throw on a META setup from my armory.

Why would I want this more constricted? I dont think they should've even had classes to begin with, they just saw the success of WoW and went that direction rather than staying true to typical elder scrolls stuff.

amig186 · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

How will we get to play an elementalist if we can't have Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame together?

What is this strange obsession I'm seeing with an elementalist? That build will be garbage in anything that's not overland anyway. If it deprives people of a useless gimmick build while making the game easier to balance and not forcing us to abandon 2/3 of our chosen class for whatever's meta then it's a sacrifice I'd be willing to make. You know the game will be balanced around the strongest combinations, and forget getting any buffs to your class lines, Zos will be like "just swap them out lol".

Erickson9610 · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

amig186 wrote: »

You know the game will be balanced around the strongest combinations, and forget getting any buffs to your class lines, Zos will be like "just swap them out lol".

Class identity was always second to the meta. If someone is so concerned about maintaining class identity, then they shouldn't expect their Class to also be the meta.

There may have been individual metas for each Class before, but there was always one which performed the best. Now that each Class skill line is individually balanced as modular toolkits, there should be a clear singular meta which people have no excuse not to chase if they want to play the meta above anything else.

StarMightyMaster · April 23

Make ESO like as good as Oblivion Remastered :~)

amig186 · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

You know the game will be balanced around the strongest combinations, and forget getting any buffs to your class lines, Zos will be like "just swap them out lol".

Class identity was always second to the meta. If someone is so concerned about maintaining class identity, then they shouldn't expect their Class to also be the meta.

There may have been individual metas for each Class before, but there was always one which performed the best. Now that each Class skill line is individually balanced as modular toolkits, there should be a clear singular meta which people have no excuse not to chase if they want to play the meta above anything else.

That's my problem, I was never kicked out of a trial group for not playing an arcanist, but now that switching out skill lines will be as simple as 123, I know I'll be expected to do that even in stuff that's not endgame. Because if I'm right then the power creep will force Zos to either continue nerfing class lines across the board or to buff NPC bosses accordingly. Not to mention that any 'fun' combos will be entirely useless as a result. They could at least let me keep most of the class I picked because I liked how it plays.

Erickson9610 · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

amig186 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

You know the game will be balanced around the strongest combinations, and forget getting any buffs to your class lines, Zos will be like "just swap them out lol".

Class identity was always second to the meta. If someone is so concerned about maintaining class identity, then they shouldn't expect their Class to also be the meta.

There may have been individual metas for each Class before, but there was always one which performed the best. Now that each Class skill line is individually balanced as modular toolkits, there should be a clear singular meta which people have no excuse not to chase if they want to play the meta above anything else.

That's my problem, I was never kicked out of a trial group for not playing an arcanist, but now that switching out skill lines will be as simple as 123, I know I'll be expected to do that even in stuff that's not endgame.

I highly doubt groups that aren't endgame will be so strict about which setup players bring to content. It's been my experience that if I can pull my own weight, no one really cares what I bring to the table.

I fully expect scorepushing or trifecta groups to require me to use some meta build that I don't really want to play, but at least with Subclassing it'll be easier for me to set that build up on the character I do want to play.

How is the expectation to use Subclassing any different from the expectation to use Scribing, Classes, or sets? It feels like the next iteration of what has always happened every time the meta shifts due to the introduction of a new feature.

amig186 · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

You know the game will be balanced around the strongest combinations, and forget getting any buffs to your class lines, Zos will be like "just swap them out lol".

Class identity was always second to the meta. If someone is so concerned about maintaining class identity, then they shouldn't expect their Class to also be the meta.

There may have been individual metas for each Class before, but there was always one which performed the best. Now that each Class skill line is individually balanced as modular toolkits, there should be a clear singular meta which people have no excuse not to chase if they want to play the meta above anything else.

That's my problem, I was never kicked out of a trial group for not playing an arcanist, but now that switching out skill lines will be as simple as 123, I know I'll be expected to do that even in stuff that's not endgame.

I highly doubt groups that aren't endgame will be so strict about which setup players bring to content. It's been my experience that if I can pull my own weight, no one really cares what I bring to the table.

And I'd like it to stay that way, but I fear that the balance changes will force them to become more strict.

I fully expect scorepushing or trifecta groups to require me to use some meta build that I don't really want to play, but at least with Subclassing it'll be easier for me to set that build up on the character I do want to play.

Good point, though I'm not sure how much of that character will be left when all's said and done. But maybe this is the better way to look at it, I'll need to give it some consideration.

How is the expectation to use Subclassing any different from the expectation to use Scribing, Classes, or sets? It feels like the next iteration of what has always happened every time the meta shifts due to the introduction of a new feature.

It's not really different, it's just a more extreme version of it.

LunaFlora · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

copied my comment from a similar thread:

the two promo images for Subclassing both use 3 skill lines.

- Aedric Spear from Templar.
- Animal Companions from Warden.
- Soldier of Apocrypha from Arcanist.

- Ardent Flame from Dragonknight.
- Storm Calling from Sorcerer.
- Winter's Embrace from Warden.
^ Elementalist was also mentioned in the ESO Direct Livestream.

Link to the pictures' source:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/67841

basically i don't see any reason to expect it to change and i hope it doesn't change.

GloatingSwine · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I just don’t think a pure class should be forced to subclass. Sure, optimizing a build to get maybe 5-10% more power by becoming a glass cannon is one thing, but if we’re talking about a power differential of 50% or more, that’s a very big problem.

The problem is that you are going to be forced to sublcass, because your pure class has to die in order to prevent the power of combos with other classes getting too high.

Like Dragonknight has to lose about 50% of its on-class sustain because Battle Roar is just too powerful if you combo it with the ult gen and ult cost reductions from other class lines. So that has to die and combustion dies too because that would be too good if you had it on top of death gleaning (down 25% and 60% respectively leaving no on-class sustain options).

There's nothing they can do about this. They have to either make class lines 100% xenophobic like the new Daedra Summoning so you just can't combo them properly or nerf them numerically into the ground.

Only allowing one swap would mean that the truly busted arc-cro-blade and such combos wouldn't be possible to start with and so far fewer "kill the single class to save the multiclass" nerfs would have to happen..

Elvenheart · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

Erickson9610 wrote: »

How will we get to play an elementalist if we can't have Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame together?

@Erickson9610 I'm actually hoping I can make elementalist work for a brand new character I'm planning to make. Have you tested one on the PTS, and if so are you noticing anything about it - is it good, is it missing anything important, the best base class to use, etc?

The_Meathead · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

LunaFlora wrote: »

I still can't believe they had the audacity to show the old Jabs spear we all request returned instead of the damnable shovel
they seem hellbent on keeping.

ganzaeso · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

I would rather it be all 3 for absolute flexibility, but 2 is just fine.

VoidCommander · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

The_Meathead wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

I still can't believe they had the audacity to show the old Jabs spear we all request returned instead of the damnable shovel
they seem hellbent on keeping.

The new spear looks infinitely better. Stop lying to yourself. When people want the “old spear” back, they want the 4 hit effect, not the physical design.

The_Meathead · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

VoidCommander wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

I still can't believe they had the audacity to show the old Jabs spear we all request returned instead of the damnable shovel
they seem hellbent on keeping.

The new spear looks infinitely better. Stop lying to yourself. When people want the “old spear” back, they want the 4 hit effect, not the physical design.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but if you glance around the forums much, you'll surely see you're in a very small minority. There were waves of posts requesting the old animation and spear and the recent 'largest errors in ESO history' has several mentions of just this one ability animation.

Deltia even did a video mocking the new animation, with a pool noodle.

EDIT: The new spear not matching the one used in all other Aedric Spear abilities in the line gets mentioned a lot, too.

Wereswan · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

ganzaeso wrote: »

I would rather it be all 3 for absolute flexibility, but 2 is just fine.

It essentially is already; you get to pick your class when starting a character (or choosing an alt to retool,) plus two class skill lines of your choice, meaning three hand-picked skill lines in total.

Elvenheart · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

Wereswan wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

I would rather it be all 3 for absolute flexibility, but 2 is just fine.

It essentially is already; you get to pick your class when starting a character (or choosing an alt to retool,) plus two class skill lines of your choice, meaning three hand-picked skill lines in total.

Well, it is almost that, but especially in the case of retooling you HAVE to keep one skill line from the original class no matter what, so it’s not quite absolute flexibility, but fortunately it’s close!

And even when creating a brand new character, you have to be sure that you will be happy with the base class you choose because you will always be stuck with at least one skill line from that class going forward forever.

Edited to add: Oh, that’s a thought…Subclassing 2.0, they ability to swap all three skill lines someday! 😄

BasP · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

Elvenheart wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

How will we get to play an elementalist if we can't have Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame together?

@Erickson9610 I'm actually hoping I can make elementalist work for a brand new character I'm planning to make. Have you tested one on the PTS, and if so are you noticing anything about it - is it good, is it missing anything important, the best base class to use, etc?

Coincidentally I was messing around with that setup on the PTS today, but while the combination of skills looked cool my DPS was pretty bad (only 126K). I'll be the first to admit that I'm a mediocre player and that others would definitely get better results than me with the exact same setup, but still, even I can do 150K+ DPS on the PTS with other subclass combinations.

As for the base class - I don't think it matters much, unless you want to use one of the Class Sets of course. But none of Class Sets of those classes are really great at the moment (I personally hope that the Winter's Embrace set we'll get one day will be awesome for Frost Damage builds).

Wereswan · April 23

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

Elvenheart wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

ganzaeso wrote: »

I would rather it be all 3 for absolute flexibility, but 2 is just fine.

It essentially is already; you get to pick your class when starting a character (or choosing an alt to retool,) plus two class skill lines of your choice, meaning three hand-picked skill lines in total.

Well, it is almost that, but especially in the case of retooling you HAVE to keep one skill line from the original class no matter what, so it’s not quite absolute flexibility, but fortunately it’s close!

And even when creating a brand new character, you have to be sure that you will be happy with the base class you choose because you will always be stuck with at least one skill line from that class going forward forever.

Edited to add: Oh, that’s a thought…Subclassing 2.0, they ability to swap all three skill lines someday! 😄

Think about it this way: on live, if you have one character and you want to try something different, you need to start a new alt. That means starting a new alt for every new class you want to try—and all the work you put into them is basically lost if you decide you hate playing [fill in the class].

The way subclassing currently works, you still have a class you choose at character selection, and you can potentially swap two of the class skill lines for something else. That means that one character can try out all 21 of the class skill lines in the game, with the limitations that you have to keep one of those original lines, the replacement ones will level slower and cost more, and you can't try two from the same class at the same time. In the new system, you only need four characters to have all the potential combinations covered.

Parasaurolophus · April 23

Just give the opportunity to choose one additional line from another class and that's it. That will be a "sub" class. It will give some opportunities and won't ruin the game so much.

Elvenheart · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

BasP wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

How will we get to play an elementalist if we can't have Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame together?

@Erickson9610 I'm actually hoping I can make elementalist work for a brand new character I'm planning to make. Have you tested one on the PTS, and if so are you noticing anything about it - is it good, is it missing anything important, the best base class to use, etc?

Coincidentally I was messing around with that setup on the PTS today, but while the combination of skills looked cool my DPS was pretty bad (only 126K). I'll be the first to admit that I'm a mediocre player and that others would definitely get better results than me with the exact same setup, but still, even I can do 150K+ DPS on the PTS with other subclass combinations.

As for the base class - I don't think it matters much, unless you want to use one of the Class Sets of course. But none of Class Sets of those classes are really great at the moment (I personally hope that the Winter's Embrace skill set we'll get one day will be awesome for Frost Damage builds).

Thank you for the info! And I hope Wardens get a good set too!

Spearblade · April 23

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

Subclassing with two skill lines is quite possibly the best and most exciting thing to come out since the game launched in my opinion. And EXACTLY what ESO needed to do to shake things up and keep things exciting for a long time to come. I'm not sure the game would really "survive" another year of Necrom/Gold Road style updates (though Scribing was a good start)...

The game has needed a new source of character progression for a long time, and short of increasing level/CP cap or introducing a new tier of crafting materials... there aren't many options. By opening up two skill lines, they are opening up an obscene number of potential builds that people can theorycraft with. I have pretty much always just gotten all the Skyshards/Pub Dungeon group events/Dungeon skill points for each character and have had more than enough skill points... With unlocking other Class Skill lines however, I'm going to actually have to partake in more Story quests...which I might even enjoy- but I just haven't done because there was no seemingly worthwhile reward for doing so. Basically, the whole game's 10 years of content just became a profitable/progression'y oyster for me to explore and complete. I don't complete things just for the sake of doing them. If the "carrot" at the end of a quest is a stupid achievement, or 400g- I don't bother. But if I could conceivably unlock Radiant Oppression, Merciless Resolve, Jabs, etc with that 200th skill point? I'll do it with a smile on my face.

To me, the people worried about the sweatiest meta seekers are just playing with the wrong crowd. I know some people are going to be elitist and require the latest and greatest meta builds, but that's just inherent to every MMO ever- at all times. The game has already gone thru phases of Sorc armies, Arcanists, etc. In most games, and probably this one as well, performing mechanics correctly is more important than anything else for completing content.

As far as class identity goes- it's an Elder Scrolls game. Having classes at all is more of a MMO thing and less of an Elder Scrolls thing. Still, I think they could- and should- expand upon Class sets, and maybe even Class weapons (think Maelstrom Arena, Vateshran, etc). Some of my favorite MMO memories ever were of chasing my classes' Epic weapons in EverQuest (I'm old). Something like that might translate well here.

Power creep is a potential concern, sure. But I would argue that it's been an issue for a long time. I remember once upon a time, a long, long time ago...the first harvester you fight in the game (Soul Shriven main story) was a legitimate obstacle for a lot of people. Players actually had to ask and figure out how to kill it. Today I have builds that I can AFK on and kill anything in the open world except world bosses with. I literally come back to my computer and have corpses around my character (no companion). Soloing DLC world bosses is actually one of the few ways I chase difficult content these days, which is definitely not intended... and I don't even consider myself a "good" player (I use Oakensoul on many builds/classes). The world isn't remotely dangerous, and base game vet dungeons are routinely soloed by many, and some people even solo vet DLC dungeons. So, yes, power creep is a problem, but it's not new.

gc0018 · April 24

make it so only 1 skill line can be change at a time.

I don't know the right answer, but general in this case, I will try beginning with a small step. If one skill line works well, then go for two.

Not impose tariff to all the world at the same time as TXXXp did.

Amottica · April 24

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Yeah, swapping out only one skill line would mean the system would feel like actually having a main and sub class and also mean there would be a lot less scope for degenerate three class combos that need all of the class lines to be nerfed into the ground in order to rein them in (thereby making those combos mandatory if you want to have damage and/or sustain).

This is it. What they have done is not subclassing. They are "jumping the shark" due to the drop in players based on their reduction in content and other changes.

Elvenheart · April 24

Keep it as it is (change 2 skill lines).

Elvenheart wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

How will we get to play an elementalist if we can't have Winter's Embrace, Storm Calling, and Ardent Flame together?

@Erickson9610 I'm actually hoping I can make elementalist work for a brand new character I'm planning to make. Have you tested one on the PTS, and if so are you noticing anything about it - is it good, is it missing anything important, the best base class to use, etc?

Coincidentally I was messing around with that setup on the PTS today, but while the combination of skills looked cool my DPS was pretty bad (only 126K). I'll be the first to admit that I'm a mediocre player and that others would definitely get better results than me with the exact same setup, but still, even I can do 150K+ DPS on the PTS with other subclass combinations.

As for the base class - I don't think it matters much, unless you want to use one of the Class Sets of course. But none of Class Sets of those classes are really great at the moment (I personally hope that the Winter's Embrace skill set we'll get one day will be awesome for Frost Damage builds).

Thank you for the info! And I hope Wardens get a good set too!

Although the first 3 skill lines that come to mind are Frost, Storm, and Ardent Flame, conceptually Earthen Heart could replace any one of those since in the end no matter what we’re only going to have three of the four elements represented. The question would be if that would provide a benefit, and if so, which of the other three lines would be best to give up?

The Elder Scrolls Online

Change from 2 to 1 Skill lines on subclasses

Change from 2 to 1 Skill lines on subclasses 150 votes