Please bring back Vengeance campaign

Joy_Division · April 7

peacenote wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

I logged into Blackreach and noticed that DC PvDoor'ed the map and was in the process of Pvdooring our (AD's) scrolls without much of a fight. No interesting fights were going on since nobody was pushing anything so I queued in for GH.... It took me 17+ mins to get in... once I was in... For a campaign that was locked pop in all 3 factions.. there wasn't much going on.. DC or EP wasn't pushing each other... apparently, all of AD was at Alessia Bridge fighting with EP... It was boring.

Vengeance brought life to Cyrodill and everyone was enjoying it.. there was such a massive amount of people on... with so many things going on, and with an endless amount of battles.

Cyrodill was great for a week

I'm actually mystified by the people who are missing Vengeance now. I played it because it was the only thing available, and to do my part for the test, but it did not hold my interest, at all. That's not to say there weren't good or promising things about it, but as someone who currently PvP's more than I PvE.... if it's either/or with no possibility for improvements or changes, I'd take Cyro today over Vengeance, 100%. If Vengeance, as it was in the test, was implemented permanently with no other options, my interest in PvP would plummet. My personal desire isn't "always tons of people in a single battle and I can sort of hit skills and move around in that environment" but "explore a wide variety of builds, options, classes, and push my skills to the limit by tweaking and changing my setups." To each his own, but I hope we end up with options at the end of this.

If you are legitimately mystified why people would miss Vengeance, then how can I take any of your opinions about Live Cyrodiil seriously? Even if You really really really love it, it is so blatantly obvious why people would not like it. How can you not see that?

Oh hi! Btw (100% serious here), I always really enjoy your posts; they are very well thought out. Iirc, you had a great vMA guide back in the day.

To answer your question, I guess I should have just worded that a little differently. I'm actually a big advocate of different play styles and trying to help others understand other perspectives or how compromises can be made. What I should have said was, that there is absolutely zero part of me that misses Vengeance. I don't remotely feel that emotion about it... not even a little bit. I actively missed live Cyro as I was participating in the test (what I missed and what I disliked about the test is in my post in the test feedback, so I won't repeat it all here).

I certainly can understand why others who prioritize different things than me, or experience worse performance in live than I typically do, might miss it. That's why I said "to each his own." It's just for me, the trade-offs (basically, the extreme simplification of builds and options and the slower pace) were not worth it. I wrote that sentiment as I was trying to explain why, if it was a choice between Vengeance exactly as it was, vs live, I'd pick live. I just... can't personally imagine being satisfied long term with a Cyro that felt so slow and limited.

Now there were some promising things about the test... especially the lack of a stuck in combat bug! So I can empathize more with a sentiment of missing parts of the test. I could see saying "Boy, I loved less lag, no stuck in combat bug, and the larger battles. I miss those!" Which is different, to me, than saying "I miss the entire environment" and preferring that to live. And I do agree with the sentiment of people going into live Cyro and missing the better performance of the test. But again, for people who care way more about being in an epic battle without ever crashing, as opposed to having many nuanced builds and options available... what's good about live Cyro to them might not outweigh what they loved about Vengeance. And I get that people may truly feel that way... I just can't feel that way, myself.

Anyway, I'd like it if you'd take me seriously, just because I happen to have a lot of respect for your opinions and experience in ESO, but it's also ok if you don't. Mostly when I write it's to share my opinion because if I have one, probably others do too, so it gives ZOS multiple perspectives to consider. The more kinds of players that can be happy with a solution, the better. I've been playing MMOs for years, and I've PvP'd not only in ESO but in Wow, Rift, etc. I've seen ESO evolve and implement tons of what I consider to be fantastic changes, but also tons of what I consider to be highly unfortunate changes. I tend to have a stronger opinion when a proposed or implemented change has collateral damage to playstyles that could be avoided, or when lovely features are removed after we've enjoyed them for many years.

I suppose I'm passionate and concerned about the Vengeance test possibly becoming permanent, as-is, because it feels like the latter to me. Many features and functionality were taken out of the PvP experience in that test such that it would feel like another "loss" to me if it went live and those features were permanently removed. Things like the fact that AP wasn't calculated until you left the environment drove me absolutely bonkers. A small thing, I know, but I often play "until I hit xyz" so it was an extra irritating limitation. And I know how things work around here, and I don't have a lot of faith that if the message is unilaterally "This was unequivocally the best thing I've ever experienced!!" that we won't see almost a clone of the test go live with little tweaking.

Lastly, I suppose the other thing, for me, is that I expected performance to be better in battles in this test (and I expected less ball groups) because of everything that was disabled, so it wasn't that impressive to me. I mean, if it isn't better with all that stuff turned off, we are in super big trouble. So, that was just an expected outcome such that I focused more on all the things I didn't like than the performance improvement.

I don't think it makes my opinions less valid just because I was overjoyed to be able to play in Greyhost with all of my characters, all of my builds, my scribing abilities, and saw the return of a variety of strategies beyond just "the zerg" once the test was over. But I do understand that live Cyro isn't perfect and I didn't mean to hint that it was. Thanks for reading (if you did!)

Hi there!

Just to be clear, my comment was directed to your opinions about Cyrodiil, not you personally.

Fair enough that you don't miss Vengeance. But you "can't personally imagine being satisfied long term with a Cyro that felt so slow and limited."

It's not hard.

Take myself. I have spent more time inactive/unsubbed from ESO than actively playing since 2021. I would rather start up a new Baldur's Gate campaign, see what all the fuss was about with a game like Slay the Spire, or just read a book on my shelf than log into to PvP on ESO. My friends list, defunct old guilds, and the countless old names I used to see every night and are now long forgotten are testament that thousands of players who were once attracted to and committed to ESO PvP have decided that literally doing something else is preferable to ESO's current Cyrodiil with its dead map, troll tanks, ridiculous proc sets, instant-killing bombers, oppressive ball groups, players constantly healing to full every two seconds, extremely high skill entry reequipment, low pop caps, etc., etc. ZOS has introduced so much powercreep into the game that players take that very creativity and freedom that you value and make builds that break the game.

So Vengeance comes along, and offered certain things about ESO PvP that we used to love and are long since extinct from ESO: a live map, freedom from oppressive ball groups, constant fights (did you know I leveled a character from 10-50 in just two sessions of PvP?), no broken builds having everything, no troll tanks, players health not just instantly rebounding to full, etc., etc. Yes, that is something I would invest my time in because it was above all fun. Maybe ZOS will mess it up. I don't know. But as a beginning, something to build upon? Absolutely has potential. So try not to think of it as me preferring templates of Vengeance to the creativity of Live Cyrodiil. Think of it more like the choice of not playing a PvP I find boring to playing something that I found fun and recaptures aspects long missing from Cyrodiil, even if imperfect and flawed.

Kungfu · April 13

Joy_Division wrote: »

I have spent more time inactive/unsubbed from ESO than actively playing since 2021. I would rather start up a new Baldur's Gate campaign, see what all the fuss was about with a game like Slay the Spire, or just read a book on my shelf than log into to PvP on ESO. My friends list, defunct old guilds, and the countless old names I used to see every night and are now long forgotten are testament that thousands of players who were once attracted to and committed to ESO PvP have decided that literally doing something else is preferable to ESO's current Cyrodiil with its dead map, troll tanks, ridiculous proc sets, instant-killing bombers, oppressive ball groups, players constantly healing to full every two seconds, extremely high skill entry reequipment, low pop caps, etc., etc.

This.
Just. This.
I've been pushing myself and logging into Cyro in the days & weeks following Vengeance but it's just not fun. It's full of public toxicity, too. Except for a couple of hold-outs who are only doing dungeons and unfinished achievements out of pure boredom, most of my current guild have moved on to other things already.

That's why I keep coming into the forums, into these kinds of posts BEGGING to have a copy of whatever current state of Vengeance campaign be made available while they work on the next stage. Preferably as a secondary option to / replacement for the Under 50.

And I keep coming back here because this *IS* a time-limited request. ZOS folks really fail to understand that dragging their feet here is only serving to degrade population and morale. Without the ability to play what so many of us enjoyed, by "June sometime" the attitude will have likely eroded so far that people like me & my guild finally unsub, hear about the next test, and think:
"Why should I bother? So I can enjoy the carrot they give me for one week just to get the rug yanked out from under me again for months?"
No thank you. In my book, that's tantamount to abuser behavior. I'd much rather move on with my life and enjoy it than get hooked on something I cannot have.

So I'm subbed for the remainder of this period. But I will absolutely not be renewing without a Vengeance option.

AngryPenguin · April 13

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

I'm only seeing 2 people I know to be avid PvP players posting in support of vengeance mode. That should be telling information for ZOS to go by.

LOL Like you know everyone.

Again this is not a zero sum game. There is no reason why both can not exist side by side in adjusted formats.

It probably is a zero sum game. It's not very likely that ZOS will go from barely supporting the PvP format we have now to fully supporting two different formats at the same time. They will pick one fomat and go with it and, more than likely, drop the other format. This is why I'm so opposed to ZOS investing further dev time into any version of the vengeance format. Eventually they're going to pick one or the other most likely.

It seems to me that ZOS has already determined the direction they're going with this and no amount of feedback is going to change anything. ...just as it's always been. I wonder how long the original format for Cyrodiil PvP will be available or if they are actually using data gathered during vengeance to improve the original format as opposed to replacing it.

olsborg · April 13

No ballgroup and no lagg and no proccsets, i loved it.

ForumBully · April 13

I'm sad I missed it. I didn't hear about it til it was over because I'd left the game. I only PvPed unless I needed to farm a set and all the reasons people loved Vengeance and hate Cyrodiil as it is are the reasons I stopped playing.
From what I've read about it, I think I'd prefer a few more perks in a permanent campaign option, but it sounds like it was a blast.
Clearly some folks at ZoS are actively looking at PvP beyond tweaking a few percentage points on a spreadsheet, and if we're at the testing stage on live servers, they've been at it for awhile. This is very encouraging as an ex-player...I can't remember the last time it seemed like PvP in ESO was anything but an afterthought.
For me, this seems like an admission that what they've got isn't sustainable. It's odd that it's called a test, when it seems like simply accepting the truth that all PvP players have known for a long time: too much cross healing, too many AoE interactions from too many skills and too many sets...just too many calculations. It was too many years ago.

Subclassing has me excited about maybe playing again, continuous development on Vengeance will make me sub again.

xylena_lazarow · April 13

I'm looking forward to both a multiclassing server and an improved Vengeance server.

fizzybeef · April 13

no please dont bring it back

LPapirius · April 13

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

There was nothing what so ever "special" about the vengeance zerg fest.

It was not a glimpse into what Cyrodiil used to be. It was nothing like what Cyrodiil used to be. The difference was akin to driving a pedal car vs. driving a real car. (the pedal car being vengeance mode) It was boring a PvP experience as I've ever had. It was just follow the zerg and press some buttons. Nothing else to it. I think that's why the PvE'rs were so happy with it.

If you decided you needed to follow the zerg and press some buttons, thats all cool. Meanwhile, people like me were making our own fun across the map, pressuring different resources, keeps and making plays on towns. If you find it boring, thats cool. Lag, ballgroups, bombs and blocktanks isn't for me tho. In otherwords, yes it was special in a good way objectively whether or not one decides to take a blind eye towards the server performance. Here comes the PVE strawman again!

It's not a strawman to point out that the majority of players swooning over the vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. That's just a fact. It can't be a straw man argument if it's true. There are less than a handful of PvP mains on here posting they think vengeance was anything other than a boring zerg fest with some potential. And none of them want to see anything other than the original version of Cyrodiil fixed. None of us want ZOS to abandon the original version of Cyrodiil.

What do you lose being able to dunk on more PVE players? Is it because in Vengeance you can't because you can't exploit the broken sets? I was dunking on people during Vengeance week and it felt great.

Top question is - Do "hardcore PVP advocates" (Not Deltia because he liked Vengeance) want laggy unpopulated Cyrodiil or do they want accessible popcapped 600 players Cyrodiil? Remember! Gatekeeping Cyrodiil is why its dead and has such a low number of participants. When does one let go of their source of ego gratification and say "Man, Cyrodiil needs an overhaul"?

Many factual inaccuracies in your post. Not the least of which is that Deltia doesn't play ESO anymore.

You need to answer the question for any of subsequent text to matter. Deltia played and covered Vengeance in a video. Need a link?

Ah, well, I did manage to find this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8VI-a39Lk&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming

So it looks like Deltia did in fact play some vengeance. I'd encourage you to watch the video several times and take to heart what he has to say about it. My sentiments match his exactly. And his comments in the video run contrary to most of the assertions you have made about the vengeance mode.

I am now a bit confused though about what's going on with Deltia. He did sell the rights to his website last year. But this video sure looks like he's representing himself, not Nazura. So don't know what to say about that. Maybe the deal fell through for some reason. Or maybe Nazura is paying Deltia to continue to produce content. ESO certainly isn't his main focus anymore if you look at deltiasgaming.com.

Do you have any links to anything eso related from Deltia in the last six months other than what I linked to by chance?

You watch it again. He said he had fun with it. It wasn't all negative like you.

Here's a new one where Deltia is more clear about the state of PvP and vengeance. I direct you to the very last thing he says in his review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIzTklQj0Qc&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming

Now what did he say again?

Kungfu · April 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I'm looking forward to both a multiclassing server and an improved Vengeance server.

lol all the love for you Xylena, but lemme know which faction you'll be on after subclassing eh? I'd rather not be against whatever beastly build you come up with

That said, and to the rest of this thread:
Yes please.
ASAP.
Bring it back, continue testing & adding, and leave it on while you (ZOS) build the next phase.

xylena_lazarow · April 16

Kungfu wrote: »

lol all the love for you Xylena, but lemme know which faction you'll be on after subclassing eh? I'd rather not be against whatever beastly build you come up with

Staying with AD! My experience so far with dueling on PTS is that while it's a ton of fun to play with all the skill trees, the meta is still gonna be defined by busted gear sets over skill combos. At least now there's endless different ways you can make an MDW/Vatesh pressure brawler, or an Acuity/Balo attrition tank, etc. Anyway, bring on Vengeance.

darvaria · April 17

There is no reason not to let vengeance replace BR and no cp. I'm not bothering with any new meta. I'll just continue as a wall warrior and "leave" whenever I feel like it. If I PVP at all. You don't have to choose ... GH will be there, just give Vengeance to players that want it. I don't see where scribing has changed BG's at all. I only do the solo 8v8 and usually top the score board (not always) with very few deaths ... if any. (usually only die to the Chaos Ball). I don't see any busted sets there either. Resist, heal, & block.

Why all this scramble about what Deltia says? You can't even sub to Deltia now ... I used to have a paid sub (a really small monthly amount) but now he doesn't PVP or play enough to even offer that ...............

XIIICaesar · April 21

Kamchuk wrote: »

It’s sad for me to say this, but I just don’t have any interest in going back to Gray Host after being spoiled by Vengeance. I don’t have any desire to fight against Rush of Agony, Ball Groups, or unkillable players. It’s unwinnable. I don’t play Golf anymore either because it is a game you can only play but never win.

People have been complaining about Vengeance being too simple, or after playing for a while, being boring because it is ZERG vs ZERG all the time. But we only experienced it in LIVE for 1 week. Cyro has always evolved over time. If Vengeance were a permanent Campaign, battle strategies would evolve to be more than just Zergs. I watch my wife play in Cyro on PS NA and I am very impressed with the organization and tactics used by AD. Her EP faction has no strategy AT ALL. It is no wonder AD always wins. IMO that would eventually happen in Vengeance as tactics evolve, (that is if the goal of the Vengeance campaign is to WIN by having the highest score).

Going forward, a Vengeance like campaign needs to include all Class active and passive abilities at the very minimum. This differentiates the abilities of each Class and makes them unique. They should be unique to augment each players preferred playstyle and skill. But it is the players brains, playstyle and skill that should be the ultimate determinant of winning and losing, not the broken mechanics and armor found in GH.

I guess subclassing kinda nuked your last paragraph about classes being unique. They are going to continue with Vengeance tho. Looking like I predicted correctly at the start that it'd be the way they went forward with Cyro instead it being a one & done test too. In the latest PTS patch notes they've noted they started adding the weapon skill lines.

XIIICaesar · April 21

AngryPenguin wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

I'm only seeing 2 people I know to be avid PvP players posting in support of vengeance mode. That should be telling information for ZOS to go by.

LOL Like you know everyone.

Again this is not a zero sum game. There is no reason why both can not exist side by side in adjusted formats.

It probably is a zero sum game. It's not very likely that ZOS will go from barely supporting the PvP format we have now to fully supporting two different formats at the same time. They will pick one fomat and go with it and, more than likely, drop the other format. This is why I'm so opposed to ZOS investing further dev time into any version of the vengeance format. Eventually they're going to pick one or the other most likely.

It seems to me that ZOS has already determined the direction they're going with this and no amount of feedback is going to change anything. ...just as it's always been. I wonder how long the original format for Cyrodiil PvP will be available or if they are actually using data gathered during vengeance to improve the original format as opposed to replacing it.

Pretty sure they will windup replacing it or at the very least adding a Vengeance style campaign to stay beside the others just like you have Gray Host, Blackreach, under 50 etc now. It'll be the one most populated where most prolly play like the alliance locked is now on live. In the PTS patch notes they've already mentioned they've added weapon skill lines to Vengeance but in "Vengeance" style skills so they've been tweaked like the class skills. If you weren't planning on Vengeance campaign being a replacement or permanent fixture & it ONLY being a one time test to see if simplified skills would increase performance, they succeeded by miles with the test. Hands down it did what the test was designed to do & showcased simplified skills increase performance by miles. IMO you'd only need to keep adding more skill lines because you're trying to tweak the other skill lines into simplified but still functional versions one group at a time until you've got them all in & they're ready for a live release at that point.

amiiegee · April 21

dont do it 😂😂 It was boring and stale and made me quit while it was up

QB1 · April 22

Bring back vengeance with weapon skills, world skills, guild skills, assault support etc. and allow subclassing.

Afterip · April 22

That was in last patchnotes:

Vengeance Abilities

Weapon Lines
Destruction Staff
Impulse: The damage over time effect from the Fire Impulse variant no longer misses.
Two-Handed
Critical Rush: The guaranteed Critical Strike now functions as intended.

Cuwen · May 1

RaikaNA wrote: »

I logged into Blackreach and noticed that DC PvDoor'ed the map and was in the process of Pvdooring our (AD's) scrolls without much of a fight. No interesting fights were going on since nobody was pushing anything so I queued in for GH.... It took me 17+ mins to get in... once I was in... For a campaign that was locked pop in all 3 factions.. there wasn't much going on.. DC or EP wasn't pushing each other... apparently, all of AD was at Alessia Bridge fighting with EP... It was boring.

Vengeance brought life to Cyrodill and everyone was enjoying it.. there was such a massive amount of people on... with so many things going on, and with an endless amount of battles.

Cyrodill was great for a week

Exactly. The normal toxic DC group that PV doors us in Blackreach (not all of DC) was gone during Vengeance because they couldn't do their normal gimmicks, and it was amazing. But they're back now. And for some reason, EP and DC are working together against AD once again, even though EP is in first. I'm glad to see others notice it as well. Why EP and DC hate AD so much that they work together to take AD down even when AD isn't in first and doesn't have any scrolls baffles me.

That's a big reason why I loved Vengeance. It was like how PVP used to be. It was faction against faction, not 2 against 1, just a bunch of good pvp'ing. I even saw a lot of my old friends on the other factions that had left PvP awhile ago. They came back to try Vengeance out and enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun and didn't feel the faction hate.