Change fatecarver into direct damage

Prionyx · April 18

If you don't solve arcanist problem ESO will have by far the worst PvE among every other MMO. One of the easiest solutions is to nerf skill itself by around 15%(or at least revert 8% damage *BUFF*) and make it direct so arcanist doesn't benefit from grave lord sacrifice and rapid rot

Edited: or make GLS and rapid rot not affect channel abilites like elf bane does(thanks to madmufffin for this idea)

Thank you ZOS for listening to feedback

Zodiarkslayer · April 18

No can do. What you propose would necessitate a giant 3.5s cast time with an enormous single damage tick at the end. This would render the ability beyond useless and the entire class with it.

And btw., these changes are good.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 18

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

No can do. What you propose would necessitate a giant 3.5s cast time with an enormous single damage tick at the end. This would render the ability beyond useless and the entire class with it.

And btw., these changes are good.

Not necessarily. In the past jabs and the dw spam were considered channels with multiple dmg instances yet counted as direct dmg.

RlyDontKnow · April 18

Prionyx wrote: »

If you don't solve arcanist problem ESO will have by far the worst PvE among every other MMO. One of the easiest solutions is to nerf skill itself by around 15%(or at least revert 8% damage *BUFF*) and make it direct so arcanist doesn't benefit from grave lord sacrifice and rapid rot

Making it direct just opens new issues. Then it’d be a channeled ranged direct damage ability. So e.g. both deadly and eagle eye apply to it making room for new weird builds because it’d have a good 3pc set buffing it.
Turning it from a beam into a large cast time burst is just gonna be a nightmare for pvp. Large cast time “beam” followed by spectral proc? Sounds like a great idea…

I do main arca and I don’t think it needed a buff even with the target cap. But nerfing it significantly beyond that doesn’t seem justified, either. And changing it in other weird way is not gonna help the situation.

MrCray78 · April 18

Or change grave lord sacrifice to buff direct damage.

Renato90085 · April 18

vma greatsword:i die soon

Erickson9610 · April 18

Don't nerf Necromancer because of how non-Necromancer skills benefit from it. Necromancer still needs to be buffed.

Xarc · April 18

fate carver is OK with pts changes

the only problem is combined with other classes passives in subclassing

Prionyx · April 18

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

No can do. What you propose would necessitate a giant 3.5s cast time with an enormous single damage tick at the end. This would render the ability beyond useless and the entire class with it.

And btw., these changes are good.

What are you talking about? Just make each tick deal direct instead of dot like rapid strikes or jabs function... And no, these changes are overall good by itself(excluding arcanist BUFF) but they would be overall good only if arcanist's fatecarver didn't exist or nerfed hard(as it should)

IncultaWolf · April 18

Just rework grave lord's suckrifice again

Zodiarkslayer · April 18

What? The game doesn't work like that.

If your problem is the Rapid Rot passive, then you'll have two options:
1) Remove the cast time and make it instant cast. Or...
2) Reduce all damage ticks except one.

As long as an ability has two or more damage ticks over a cast time it is always considered a channel by the game's engine. That stuff is hard coded. You cannot change that.

EDIT: Yeah. I was a little wrong here. 😅
So, I just looked it up and the game engine considers Fatecarver as:
Exhaustive Fatecarver
abilityId = 183122
DamageType: Class + Channel/Cast + AOE + DOT + Melee + magic
I don't know what it takes to change that, but I suspect it is a little more than "just".

CameraBeardThePirate · April 18

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

No can do. What you propose would necessitate a giant 3.5s cast time with an enormous single damage tick at the end. This would render the ability beyond useless and the entire class with it.

And btw., these changes are good.

It wouldn't necessitate any changes? You'd literally just change the damage type to direct damage so that it would function like Jabs or Rapid Strikes. Both of those deal "damage over time" but they count as Direct Damage and can be blocked. They count as channels but they are direct damage, so Grave Lord's Sacrifice and Rapid Rot do not buff them.

Channels =/= Damage Over Time.

You have Direct Damage and Damage Over Time.

Then you also have Instant Cast, Cast Time, and Channel.

Channel and DoTs are often, but not always, buffed by the same thing (i.e., Deadly Strikes buffs both of them, Grave Lord's only buffs DoTs).

In fact, Beam is already closer to Jabs and Rapid Strikes than a true DoT because its damage can be blocked despite counting as a DoT.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 18

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

What? The game doesn't work like that.

As long as an ability has two or more damage ticks over a cast time it is always considered a channel (and so a damage over time) by the game's engine. That stuff is hard coded. You cannot change that.

This is untrue. Jabs and Rapid Strikes do not count as DoTs, they are Channeled Direct Damage abilities.

Urzigurumash · April 18

Bow Ult is Channeled Direct also isnt it, and it would be absurd if Eagle Eye didn't buff the Bow Ult.

Fatecarver is already very bad as it is in most PvP but it becoming Direct means it could also be blocked and dodged..

on that point whats up with the Potes comment that Radiant Oppression is now dodgeable..?

(Some of these things werent orderly at all before some reforms in maybe 2016 and 2018 regarding blockability and dodgeability of Direct vs DoT)

Prionyx · April 18

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

What? The game doesn't work like that.

If your problem is the Rapid Rot passive, then you'll have two options:
1) Remove the cast time and make it instant cast. Or...
2) Reduce all damage ticks except one.

As long as an ability has two or more damage ticks over a cast time it is always considered a channel (and so a damage over time) by the game's engine. That stuff is hard coded. You cannot change that.

EDIT: So, I just looked it up and tge game engine considers Fatecarver as:
Exhaustive Fatecarver
abilityId = 183122
DamageType: Class + Channel/Cast + AOE + DOT + Melee + magic

Bro just change each tick's damage type into direct, what are you talking about "the game doesn't wiork like that"?, how is it hard coded if jabs and rapid strikes works exactly this way?

Zodiarkslayer · April 18

What does that change?
One could use Master at Arms instead of Thaumaturge and the Maelstrom TwoHander backbarred to buff Fatecarver even further. Making it possibly worse, when it comes to damage.
And the devs would need to change the entire animation in order to telegraph when the damage comes and when it does no damage. I am sure the devs'll be looking forward to that...

Prionyx wrote: »

Bro just change each tick's damage type into direct, what are you talking about "the game doesn't wiork like that"?, how is it hard coded if jabs and rapid strikes works exactly this way?

This is nonsensical, because abilities get coded to reflect their animation, not the other way around. Thats the reason why they changed the Sweeps and Flurry animations in the first place!
Flurry: Four armswings equal four instances of direct damage.
Sweeps: Three strikes with the Spear equal three instances of direct damage.
Fatecarver's beam is continuous. There are no "strikes". Take a look at the only other BEAM in the game and see what damage type it has ...

And seriously? A," just change it to ... " comment without providing any proof, logic or sound argument behind, that it would change anything for the better, is just not enough. The "Why?" is missing entirely, in my opinion.
Because this:

Prionyx wrote: »

If you don't solve arcanist problem ESO will have by far the worst PvE among every other MMO.

Is an unsubstantiated opinion that only serves to provoke fear in the readers. Which I have a completely different opinion about ...

And as I have stated elsewhere, the Arcanist class depends on Fatecarver being what it is. As it is now. Take that away and you might as well delete the entire class.

... You probably just want to play with a magic machine gun. 😂
Come to think of it ... Thats awesome! 🤯
Just change Fatecarver to direct damage and make it sound like:" Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew"

CameraBeardThePirate · April 18

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

What does that change?
One could use Master at Arms instead of Thaumaturge and the Maelstrom TwoHander backbarred to buff Fatecarver even further. Making it possibly worse, when it comes to damage.
And the devs would need to change the entire animation in order to telegraph when the damage comes and when it does no damage. I am sure the devs'll be looking forward to that...

Prionyx wrote: »

Bro just change each tick's damage type into direct, what are you talking about "the game doesn't wiork like that"?, how is it hard coded if jabs and rapid strikes works exactly this way?

This is nonsensical, because abilities get coded to reflect their animation, not the other way around. Thats the reason why they changed the Sweeps and Flurry animations in the first place!
Flurry: Four armswings equal four instances of direct damage.
Sweeps: Three strikes with the Spear equal three instances of direct damage.
Fatecarver's beam is continuous. There are no "strikes". Take a look at the only other BEAM in the game and see what damage type it has ...

And seriously? A," just change it to ... " comment without providing any proof, logic or sound argument behind, that it would change anything for the better, is just not enough. The "Why?" is missing entirely, in my opinion.
Because this:

Prionyx wrote: »

If you don't solve arcanist problem ESO will have by far the worst PvE among every other MMO.

Is an unsubstantiated opinion that only serves to provoke fear in the readers. Which I have a completely different opinion about ...

And as I have stated elsewhere, the Arcanist class depends on Fatecarver being what it is. As it is now. Take that away and you might as well delete the entire class.

... You probably just want to play with a magic machine gun. 😂
Come to think of it ... Thats awesome! 🤯
Just change Fatecarver to direct damage and make it sound like:" Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew, Pew"

Dude, Fatecarver already works identically to a direct damage ability apart from the fact that it's buffed by DoT modifiers. You can block Fatecarver right now, as is, despite it counting as a DoT. You don't need to change the visual on it because the tick rate is so fast there's nothing to really react to. If you're in the beam, you block the beam. If ZOS felt like it needed an indicator of when the damage ticks, they would've given it one since it can already be blocked.

Changing it to direct damage means it wouldn't get an immediate +25% damage boost just for slotting Grave Lord's next patch, which it absolutely doesn't need. It would have literally 0 other consequences. Sure, you could use Maelstrom with it, but considering Draugrkin isn't currently used with it despite Draugrkin buffing Beam, it's unlikely that many people would use Maelstrom with Beam since the damage you'd get from other sets will be more.

It's undeniable that Fatecarver is way too prevalent in the meta, and it's undeniable that this problem will get worse now that you can add a free 25% damage to Fatecarver with no downsides.

Stx · April 18

Yes, do this.

This is a clearly OP synergy similar to how Warden Bear would have been OP with sorcerer Daedric Prey debuff.

Beam is a spammable and all spammables should be direct damage for balance purposes. Making beam direct damage would solve the clear OP combination of tome+grave lord giving beam a whopping 25% damage boost.

Urzigurumash · April 18

@Zodiarkslayer Go try out Bow Ult. This is exactly what is being proposed.

Faulgor · April 19

I'm honestly surprised it counts as a DoT. Seems like an outlier, as similar channel abilites like Jabs and Rapid Strikes are direct damage.

I think the HA channels (Lightning and Resto staff) are still DoTs? Not sure.

Stx · April 19

Lightning Heavies have two ticks of a dot and then an aoe direct damage at the end.

Urzigurumash · April 19

Faulgor wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised it counts as a DoT. Seems like an outlier, as similar channel abilites like Jabs and Rapid Strikes are direct damage.

I think the HA channels (Lightning and Resto staff) are still DoTs? Not sure.

Radiant Oppression and Soul Assault are DoTs

J18696 · April 19

All you achieve by making fatecarver direct dmg is you allow people to run maelstrom 2hander and buff it that way so you just took away a 15% buff for a 12% buff

Renato90085 · April 19

J18696 wrote: »

All you achieve by making fatecarver direct dmg is you allow people to run maelstrom 2hander and buff it that way so you just took away a 15% buff for a 12% buff

and GLS still can buff class skill so only lost passive 10% dot buff but own 12% vma greatsword buff
GLS:increasing your damage done with class abilities and damage over time effects by 15%.

J18696 · April 19

Renato90085 wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

All you achieve by making fatecarver direct dmg is you allow people to run maelstrom 2hander and buff it that way so you just took away a 15% buff for a 12% buff

and GLS still can buff class skill so only lost passive 10% dot buff but own 12% vma greatsword buff
GLS:increasing your damage done with class abilities and damage over time effects by 15%.

GLS only buffs necromancer skills and damage over times they changed it from the live server from class skills to "necromancer skills"

Renato90085 · April 19

J18696 wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

All you achieve by making fatecarver direct dmg is you allow people to run maelstrom 2hander and buff it that way so you just took away a 15% buff for a 12% buff

and GLS still can buff class skill so only lost passive 10% dot buff but own 12% vma greatsword buff
GLS:increasing your damage done with class abilities and damage over time effects by 15%.

GLS only buffs necromancer skills and damage over times they changed it from the live server from class skills to "necromancer skills"

ok my bad i swap english check,I think my language has not updated the text yet in pts

J18696 · April 19

Renato90085 wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

All you achieve by making fatecarver direct dmg is you allow people to run maelstrom 2hander and buff it that way so you just took away a 15% buff for a 12% buff

and GLS still can buff class skill so only lost passive 10% dot buff but own 12% vma greatsword buff
GLS:increasing your damage done with class abilities and damage over time effects by 15%.

GLS only buffs necromancer skills and damage over times they changed it from the live server from class skills to "necromancer skills"

ok my bad i swap english check,I think my language has not updated the text yet in pts

Yeah this is what it looks like on pts

master_vanargand · April 19

J18696 wrote: »

All you achieve by making fatecarver direct dmg is you allow people to run maelstrom 2hander and buff it that way so you just took away a 15% buff for a 12% buff

if beam to direct damage, lose 1 skill slot, 1 gcd, and a weapon slot on the backbar (2 slot).

CameraBeardThePirate · April 21

J18696 wrote: »

All you achieve by making fatecarver direct dmg is you allow people to run maelstrom 2hander and buff it that way so you just took away a 15% buff for a 12% buff

Beam is buffed by 25% next patch, not 15%.

Rapid Rot is 10%. GLS is 15%.

Even if people then decide Maelstrom 2h would be worth running with Beam, a 12% buff is still way more palatable than a 25% buff.

Stx · April 21

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised it counts as a DoT. Seems like an outlier, as similar channel abilites like Jabs and Rapid Strikes are direct damage.

I think the HA channels (Lightning and Resto staff) are still DoTs? Not sure.

Radiant Oppression and Soul Assault are DoTs

Neither are spammable main attacks. Although it wouldn’t hurt to make those direct damage either.

virtus753 · April 21

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Bro just change each tick's damage type into direct, what are you talking about "the game doesn't wiork like that"?, how is it hard coded if jabs and rapid strikes works exactly this way?

This is nonsensical, because abilities get coded to reflect their animation, not the other way around. Thats the reason why they changed the Sweeps and Flurry animations in the first place!
Flurry: Four armswings equal four instances of direct damage.
Sweeps: Three strikes with the Spear equal three instances of direct damage.
Fatecarver's beam is continuous. There are no "strikes". Take a look at the only other BEAM in the game and see what damage type it has ...

The animation changes came three years after the change from DoT to direct damage for these skills. They were updated because the number of strikes was changed for these skills, not because their damage type was changed.

Jabs was changed to direct damage with Dragonhold, without any corresponding animation change. The animation change came when they changed how many times it hit with Lost Depths. Same with Flurry.