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Subclassing and the Buffs will SAVE this game, not "Break" it
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TORCH15✭✭✭Elvenheart wrote: »First, a disclaimer. I’ve only participated in normal PUG trial groups and older vet dungeon groups, also mostly PUGs and just for the monster masks, so I’ve never been required by a group leader to have a specific class or build.
In a lot of the threads I see that one of the worst fears seems to be that for endgame, vet hardmode trial and dungeon leaders are going start saying, “To be in our group, I need you to bring a _____ base class with “W” skill line swapped to “X” skill line and “Y” skill line swapped to “Z” skill line, using ____ skills on bars 1 & 2, and wearing _____ golded out sets.”
Now, first I can’t believe that ALL vet hardmode group leaders get this specific, but it’s been talked about enough on the forums over the years that I can believe some leaders must require specific builds and sets in order to make their group successful and achieve their goals for the players involved. And I don’t find anything wrong with that if all of their participants are in agreement. But I have to believe that some leaders out there allow a bit more leeway with their group make up.
But now posts are saying or implying that ALL endgame group leaders will start doing this. I don’t really believe that, but for the ones that are currently doing it, how will it be any different? Aren’t they already doing everything BUT requiring the participants to swap class skill lines? And for the people that actually choose to be in those types of endgame groups, if they’re already being controlled to the extent that they are, why is this any worse? It seems like that the people in these particular types of groups already have the mentality that they want to do everything they can do to do their part and making the run a success by following the leader’s instructions, so won’t they want to do this too if it gives them an advantage?
Ripping the bandaid off - Its a bunch of mental gymnastics of people mad because they wont be special anymore because this system will boost hundreds of players into a new level they were gatekept out of the last 10 years. Theyve played this game thousands of hours and still do, and people that couldnt keep up now will get an instant boost to end game content previously only achievable by a few. The few are mad. ESO is making a good marketing decision here, thats all it is. The game came out in 2014. If you were in your 20's playing ESO, your likely now in your 30s, possibly with kids, possibly with a new career, you have less time to play. This power boost brings THOSE people back with interest. As a trial lead who optimizes groups, i am excited to tell people in a new prog "tell me what you want to bring and will have fun with and wel fit it in and make it work". There will be new people coming to the table with this same mentality.
I'm mostly concerned about what will happen to all those people who are boosted during update 46 when all that new power gets clawed back in update 47 or 48.
I want endgame to be bigger, not shrink. I've tried to help hundreds of people get from vet trials to HM trials and I can count on two hands the number that have actually stuck with it.
I still have concerns with update 46. Both the inevitable crying when it all gets reined in, and about how trivial stuff is going to be for the existing endgame community, and worry that they're all going to get bored and leave.
Once you've done a 0 portal Bahsei and quad mini skip Oax becomes routine, what's left to do in Rockgrove?
2 reef guardian / 0 bridge Taleria becoming routine in dsr HM?
And the other trials? Once you've completely skipped every mechanic and cleared them in the fastest possible time, which this update has the possibility to do, I guess it's time to find a new game?
By all means make it so more people can enjoy that content. But give those of us already there something to do as well.
Fair. Perhaps the new trial will be extremely difficult. But, to your point of "time to find a new game". Yea U35 already did that when a bunch of people got nerfed. So maybe its a double edged sword. Currently, on PSNA, theres a very small subset of people getting very end game done like TD, XS, US, etc. Not even talking trifectas. So, if the argument is that it becomes too easy that people will leave, i argue that already happened because its too hard for the average Joe who has kids and plays in a trial once a week. There are a LOT of average Joes who play once a week , including me. I have GH, but that was accomplished via once a week progging for months. I simply cant commit to playing more than that, nor can 75% of my group. So, once were done with GS, were probably done and will leave ESO because we simply dont have the time to prog XS for example, with our time we have to play. This update likely has a chance at changing that. I think theres a lot of people that feel this way in the actual community that end game doesnt speak to.2 -
TORCH15✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Elvenheart wrote: »First, a disclaimer. I’ve only participated in normal PUG trial groups and older vet dungeon groups, also mostly PUGs and just for the monster masks, so I’ve never been required by a group leader to have a specific class or build.
In a lot of the threads I see that one of the worst fears seems to be that for endgame, vet hardmode trial and dungeon leaders are going start saying, “To be in our group, I need you to bring a _____ base class with “W” skill line swapped to “X” skill line and “Y” skill line swapped to “Z” skill line, using ____ skills on bars 1 & 2, and wearing _____ golded out sets.”
Now, first I can’t believe that ALL vet hardmode group leaders get this specific, but it’s been talked about enough on the forums over the years that I can believe some leaders must require specific builds and sets in order to make their group successful and achieve their goals for the players involved. And I don’t find anything wrong with that if all of their participants are in agreement. But I have to believe that some leaders out there allow a bit more leeway with their group make up.
But now posts are saying or implying that ALL endgame group leaders will start doing this. I don’t really believe that, but for the ones that are currently doing it, how will it be any different? Aren’t they already doing everything BUT requiring the participants to swap class skill lines? And for the people that actually choose to be in those types of endgame groups, if they’re already being controlled to the extent that they are, why is this any worse? It seems like that the people in these particular types of groups already have the mentality that they want to do everything they can do to do their part and making the run a success by following the leader’s instructions, so won’t they want to do this too if it gives them an advantage?
Ripping the bandaid off - Its a bunch of mental gymnastics of people mad because they wont be special anymore because this system will boost hundreds of players into a new level they were gatekept out of the last 10 years. Theyve played this game thousands of hours and still do, and people that couldnt keep up now will get an instant boost to end game content previously only achievable by a few. The few are mad. ESO is making a good marketing decision here, thats all it is. The game came out in 2014. If you were in your 20's playing ESO, your likely now in your 30s, possibly with kids, possibly with a new career, you have less time to play. This power boost brings THOSE people back with interest. As a trial lead who optimizes groups, i am excited to tell people in a new prog "tell me what you want to bring and will have fun with and wel fit it in and make it work". There will be new people coming to the table with this same mentality.
I'm mostly concerned about what will happen to all those people who are boosted during update 46 when all that new power gets clawed back in update 47 or 48.
I want endgame to be bigger, not shrink. I've tried to help hundreds of people get from vet trials to HM trials and I can count on two hands the number that have actually stuck with it.
I still have concerns with update 46. Both the inevitable crying when it all gets reined in, and about how trivial stuff is going to be for the existing endgame community, and worry that they're all going to get bored and leave.
Once you've done a 0 portal Bahsei and quad mini skip Oax becomes routine, what's left to do in Rockgrove?
2 reef guardian / 0 bridge Taleria becoming routine in dsr HM?
And the other trials? Once you've completely skipped every mechanic and cleared them in the fastest possible time, which this update has the possibility to do, I guess it's time to find a new game?
By all means make it so more people can enjoy that content. But give those of us already there something to do as well.
Fair. Perhaps the new trial will be extremely difficult. But, to your point of "time to find a new game". Yea U35 already did that when a bunch of people got nerfed. So maybe its a double edged sword. Currently, on PSNA, theres a very small subset of people getting very end game done like TD, XS, US, etc. Not even talking trifectas. So, if the argument is that it becomes too easy that people will leave, i argue that already happened because its too hard for the average Joe who has kids and plays in a trial once a week. There are a LOT of average Joes who play once a week , including me. I have GH, but that was accomplished via once a week progging for months. I simply cant commit to playing more than that, nor can 75% of my group. So, once were done with GS, were probably done and will leave ESO because we simply dont have the time to prog XS for example, with our time we have to play. This update likely has a chance at changing that. I think theres a lot of people that feel this way in the actual community that end game doesnt speak to.
The PC NA guild I raid with the most has done so many pug PBs since November that we've helped 54 people get the title who didn't have it before.
We have gotten probably triple that their Rockgrove HM clear although we don't track that. From November thru the middle of March we averaged at least 10+ Rockgrove HM runs of varying difficulty per week. Perfect for someone who can't commit to a core, to be honest. There were runs at all times of day.
Most of those 54 people don't come to the runs anymore. They did all there was to do (in their eyes) and left. Kind of discouraging, to be honest. We would love if more of them stuck around and played with us and maybe started raid leading themselves. But they didn't.5 -
TORCH15✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »Brother you can't say people don't have enough time to play and also say they are being gatekeep. It's a contradiction. The gate is open. As morpheus once said, I can only show you the door, you need to walk through it.
Nah. I think its true, not necessarily gatekept by other players though. Think about it. ESO came out in 2014. Lot of players likely in their 20s playing it then. Now in their 30s, maybe with kids, new jobs, etc. Dont have the time. Tell me with a straight face XS currently can be done by a group that plays once a week for 2 hours or less in a timely enough fashion that they wont give up, made up of a group of friends and dont go out and seek other top tier players to fill so they can play with their actual friends. Its not feasible because half the HM content achievements in the game are unobtainable by a massive majority of players. Do I want someone to walk through DM now? Of course not, it needs to feel accomplishing. But ESO is dying outside of your small box you play in. Needs this. BTW hi Dime! Hope you are doing well man.0 -
BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
To me there is no reason to do ANY trial Hard Modes, unless want to challenge yourself. There is pretty much no other reason to do HMs let alone trifectas, since you get all the gameplay affecting rewards from vet already. If you challenge yourself and it's not enough, you need to work to improve yourself. The whole idea behind a challenge is to work to overcome it. I'm sorry, but I just don't think that the most challenging content should be balanced around players who only have time to play the game 3-4 times a week.
Also, raising the floor does nothing to get new people on to the leaderboards. If the max dps is 170k and you are doing 125k, you aren't showing up on leaderboards anytime soon and that wont change no matter how much you raise the floor.7 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
I don't know why you are saying we are gatekeeping. We are saying if you're trivializing the content we have left to do, give us more to challenge us.
Endgame should never end. If power creeps too fast and content doesn't keep up, then it will.
It sill wont end as long as the game is still dropping new content. If everyone is dropping 140k, but having arcanist drop 170k. People would want to flock their Progs with more 170k dps.
The solution is very clear.
Edit: Ill also add, the trial community and prog leads are the ones who set the Minimum requirements. Maybe leave the requirements where they are at, let people enjoy the game.
Raising the requirements, will ultimately lead into harder content, and then we are back in the same exact boat we been in.Edited by FoJul on 17 April 2025 23:351 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
I don't know why you are saying we are gatekeeping. We are saying if you're trivializing the content we have left to do, give us more to challenge us.
Endgame should never end. If power creeps too fast and content doesn't keep up, then it will.
It sill wont end as long as the game is still dropping new content. If everyone is dropping 140k, but having arcanist drop 170k. People would want to flock their Progs with more 170k dps.
The solution is very clear.
Edit: Ill also add, the trial community and prog leads are the ones who set the Minimum requirements. Maybe leave the requirements where they are at, let people enjoy the game.
Raising the requirements, will ultimately lead into harder content, and then we are back in the same exact boat we been in.
On PC we don't ask for parses at this level. We asked for logs.1 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
I don't know why you are saying we are gatekeeping. We are saying if you're trivializing the content we have left to do, give us more to challenge us.
Endgame should never end. If power creeps too fast and content doesn't keep up, then it will.
It sill wont end as long as the game is still dropping new content. If everyone is dropping 140k, but having arcanist drop 170k. People would want to flock their Progs with more 170k dps.
The solution is very clear.
Edit: Ill also add, the trial community and prog leads are the ones who set the Minimum requirements. Maybe leave the requirements where they are at, let people enjoy the game.
Raising the requirements, will ultimately lead into harder content, and then we are back in the same exact boat we been in.
On PC we don't ask for parses at this level. We asked for logs.
Same statement applies to logs. Prog leads set the requirements. Whatever the requirements are in live rn, should remain the same. Dont increase it just because an already OP playstyle is getting even more OP.
There is no way you can look me in the eyes and tell me having several beamcanist just melt everything is fun. People who push leaderboards are always gonna do what they do, ignore them, matter of fact why we got leaderboards promoting this unhealthy strategy?1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭I think its really telling that my original speculation of the end game community being mad about this was because they wouldnt feel special anymore, and the people arguing the hardest here just so happen to be....guess who. Coincidence? Probably not lol.
Id honestly respect the argument "i spent a massive amount of time getting gud on this game and now a ton of people will be able to get titles I had to spend way more time on the last 10 years". Thats honestly a more sound argument than anything thats been written here so far but I think you are all afraid to say that. Just be honest.
Because we know that a massive power creep the likes we are seeing right now means that a group could virtually add a 5th support in a trial and work their way through something they couldnt before. Theres thousands of players on ESO and the end game community I think is out of touch on how many players dont actually have the skill currently to do that stuff. Thousands.
Sarah, you say youve done a ton of XS's like thats easy. Thousands of players cant do that currently. You found a few dozen. Thats a fraction of the player base that cant even touch that content. Thats simply not an honest argument, im sorry. Like i get what you are saying though. But i think you are looking at it from a point of view that doesnt reach out much past your end game community.1 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭I think its really telling that my original speculation of the end game community being mad about this was because they wouldnt feel special anymore, and the people arguing the hardest here just so happen to be....guess who. Coincidence? Probably not lol.
Id honestly respect the argument "i spent a massive amount of time getting gud on this game and now a ton of people will be able to get titles I had to spend way more time on the last 10 years". Thats honestly a more sound argument than anything thats been written here so far but I think you are all afraid to say that. Just be honest.
Because we know that a massive power creep the likes we are seeing right now means that a group could virtually add a 5th support in a trial and work their way through something they couldnt before. Theres thousands of players on ESO and the end game community I think is out of touch on how many players dont actually have the skill currently to do that stuff. Thousands.
Sarah, you say youve done a ton of XS's like thats easy. Thousands of players cant do that currently. You found a few dozen. Thats a fraction of the player base that cant even touch that content. Thats simply not an honest argument, im sorry. Like i get what you are saying though. But i think you are looking at it from a point of view that doesnt reach out much past your end game community.
You best bet your last dollar, Im fixing to finally get my swashbuckler title on my rangeblade.
I never did it before, because rangeblade couldn't even break 100k dps, I never even attempted Swash.
Edit: With subclassing, PvP'ers are likely to come over to PvE too. Increasing numbers. Im a PvP'er so I know me and my group will.Edited by FoJul on 17 April 2025 23:481 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
I don't know why you are saying we are gatekeeping. We are saying if you're trivializing the content we have left to do, give us more to challenge us.
Endgame should never end. If power creeps too fast and content doesn't keep up, then it will.
It sill wont end as long as the game is still dropping new content. If everyone is dropping 140k, but having arcanist drop 170k. People would want to flock their Progs with more 170k dps.
The solution is very clear.
Edit: Ill also add, the trial community and prog leads are the ones who set the Minimum requirements. Maybe leave the requirements where they are at, let people enjoy the game.
Raising the requirements, will ultimately lead into harder content, and then we are back in the same exact boat we been in.
I agree with you that its going to be a responsibility of prog leads not to raise the bar from current normal restrictions we see in the end game community. But im hoping this big power leap will actually generate new prog leads with new mentality altogether. I think my cautious optimism of that idea is driving a big portion of my stance altogether here. I am optimistic that an entire new player base will step up with a more open mentality of progs with less restriction with this update due to the power leap. I could end up wrong.1 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Look, let's just try an analogy here.
"Oh no, my job isn't making much money. But the cost of living is so expensive now! It would be great if the government would just hand out a lot of free money to all of us so that my income was like 50% higher than it was, because then I'd be able to afford the cost of living! After all, the government is the one who prints the money, so there's literally no downside to them printing more, right?"
We can all think that just raising the DPS of players by 50% or so would allow them to clear content. It would, that much is obvious. But that's incredibly short-sighted. Will just an inflation in DPS have effects on other things in the game? Would we seriously expect that U47 or U48 won't then come with a giant nerf to rein the DPS back in? Would we expect that the dungeons and trials next year won't then be balanced for the top players doing 200k each? Would we expect that PvE DPS is literally the only thing that matters, so we don't have to consider how this would affect PvP?2 -
TORCH15✭✭✭BananaBender wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
To me there is no reason to do ANY trial Hard Modes, unless want to challenge yourself. There is pretty much no other reason to do HMs let alone trifectas, since you get all the gameplay affecting rewards from vet already. If you challenge yourself and it's not enough, you need to work to improve yourself. The whole idea behind a challenge is to work to overcome it. I'm sorry, but I just don't think that the most challenging content should be balanced around players who only have time to play the game 3-4 times a week.
Also, raising the floor does nothing to get new people on to the leaderboards. If the max dps is 170k and you are doing 125k, you aren't showing up on leaderboards anytime soon and that wont change no matter how much you raise the floor.
Trifectas will be less affected but i think your point is fair to an extent. I still think things will be challenging but they will be feasible when previously not feasible for a large number of people. A small number of people will get bored , perhaps.0 -
BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
I don't know why you are saying we are gatekeeping. We are saying if you're trivializing the content we have left to do, give us more to challenge us.
Endgame should never end. If power creeps too fast and content doesn't keep up, then it will.
It sill wont end as long as the game is still dropping new content. If everyone is dropping 140k, but having arcanist drop 170k. People would want to flock their Progs with more 170k dps.
The solution is very clear.
Edit: Ill also add, the trial community and prog leads are the ones who set the Minimum requirements. Maybe leave the requirements where they are at, let people enjoy the game.
Raising the requirements, will ultimately lead into harder content, and then we are back in the same exact boat we been in.
On PC we don't ask for parses at this level. We asked for logs.
Same statement applies to logs. Prog leads set the requirements. Whatever the requirements are in live rn, should remain the same. Dont increase it just because an already OP playstyle is getting even more OP.
There is no way you can look me in the eyes and tell me having several beamcanist just melt everything is fun. People who push leaderboards are always gonna do what they do, ignore them, matter of fact why we got leaderboards promoting this unhealthy strategy?
Sure, let's hide our heads in the sand. Class balance isn't a problem if you don't care about class balance, who would have thought?
The standards will go up, it's simply supply and demand. Raising the floor won't create more raid leads to lead progs, but it will bring more people in if the requirement stays the same. Why would I "interview" 30 people only to choose the 8 DDs who would have met the raised requirements anyway, when I could just set the requirement higher and get half the applications but same result? There is only room for 12 people, so someone will have to get left out, and I'm not going to intentionally hinder the group by choosing someone who barely passes the old requirement when someone much more qualified is applying for the same position.
This problem solves itself if people who are against high standards would start leading their own groups with lower standards, but for some reason that very rarely happens.Edited by BananaBender on 17 April 2025 23:539 -
TORCH15✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Look, let's just try an analogy here.
"Oh no, my job isn't making much money. But the cost of living is so expensive now! It would be great if the government would just hand out a lot of free money to all of us so that my income was like 50% higher than it was, because then I'd be able to afford the cost of living! After all, the government is the one who prints the money, so there's literally no downside to them printing more, right?"
We can all think that just raising the DPS of players by 50% or so would allow them to clear content. It would, that much is obvious. But that's incredibly short-sighted. Will just an inflation in DPS have effects on other things in the game? Would we seriously expect that U47 or U48 won't then come with a giant nerf to rein the DPS back in? Would we expect that the dungeons and trials next year won't then be balanced for the top players doing 200k each? Would we expect that PvE DPS is literally the only thing that matters, so we don't have to consider how this would affect PvP?
I cant get on board with an analogy comparing some serious IRL to a video game, sorry.
If you want better than an analogy though, its a business decision by zos. They arent stupid. They know this will make builds very very strong. They knew this and put it out anyways. They need to sell to the people that will bring in the most population and the most $. That isnt the current end game community imo.
Your other concerns are valid. I do worry about a nerf after this. It would be pretty darn silly to power leap 50% and then nerf. Because if the update works and brings the population and $ back, a nerf would be insane lol. Why would they do that to themselves?0 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭BananaBender wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
I don't know why you are saying we are gatekeeping. We are saying if you're trivializing the content we have left to do, give us more to challenge us.
Endgame should never end. If power creeps too fast and content doesn't keep up, then it will.
It sill wont end as long as the game is still dropping new content. If everyone is dropping 140k, but having arcanist drop 170k. People would want to flock their Progs with more 170k dps.
The solution is very clear.
Edit: Ill also add, the trial community and prog leads are the ones who set the Minimum requirements. Maybe leave the requirements where they are at, let people enjoy the game.
Raising the requirements, will ultimately lead into harder content, and then we are back in the same exact boat we been in.
On PC we don't ask for parses at this level. We asked for logs.
Same statement applies to logs. Prog leads set the requirements. Whatever the requirements are in live rn, should remain the same. Dont increase it just because an already OP playstyle is getting even more OP.
There is no way you can look me in the eyes and tell me having several beamcanist just melt everything is fun. People who push leaderboards are always gonna do what they do, ignore them, matter of fact why we got leaderboards promoting this unhealthy strategy?
Sure, let's hide our heads in the sand. Class balance isn't a problem if you don't care about class balance, who would have thought?
The standards will go up, it's simply supply and demand. Raising the floor won't create more raid leads to lead progs, but it will bring more people in if the requirement stays the same. Why would I "interview" 30 people only to choose the 8 DDs who would have met the raised requirements anyway, when I could just set the requirement higher and get half the applications but same result? There is only room for 12 people, so someone will have to get left out, and I'm not going to intentionally hinder the group by choosing someone who barely passes the old requirement when someone much more qualified is applying for the same position.
This problem solves itself if people who are against high standards would start leading their own groups with lower standards, but for some reason that very rarely happens.
Im blessed to have a few core groups, but for others, "I like using parses to scale off of because its simpler to explain rather than talking about final fast of X boss". Others aren't perfect at their rotation, Most of the time its missing light attacks, But say we leave the bar at 120k parse. People who were at 110k already are close enough, so with an added skill line they get 120k+.
Logs come in to show they know how the fight works. I know leads don't even want to try to explain the fight. This is in every game that has trials/raids. Its up to the individual to know the fight.
Ok assuming the player knows the fights, and has several logged fights here, but BEFORE they didn't have desired DPS...Now that they do have desired DPS, whats the issue?
Leads gonna still be mad that they aren't doing the max potential damage. yeah good luck filling a group that does 170k parses on demand.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭I subtly made this point earlier too. But the amount of times I have had more than 2 healers want to join a prog that were completely capable of content, or more than 2 tanks, is a lot. With this boost, perhaps group comp can completely change. 7 150k DPS and 3 healers and 2 tanks could be a plausible way to prog something now and including more people you actually enjoy playing with vs interviewing for spots based on this top tier meta required to do this content in such a specified manner. This variety will do nothing but help the game. 7 150k dps is more than 8 120k dps. Is that feasible in everything? No because of mechanics but dang, that sounds more fun to play with that type of variety in a group than doing the same comp we have done the last 10 years.0
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I subtly made this point earlier too. But the amount of times I have had more than 2 healers want to join a prog that were completely capable of content, or more than 2 tanks, is a lot. With this boost, perhaps group comp can completely change. 7 150k DPS and 3 healers and 2 tanks could be a plausible way to prog something now and including more people you actually enjoy playing with vs interviewing for spots based on this top tier meta required to do this content in such a specified manner. This variety will do nothing but help the game. 7 150k dps is more than 8 120k dps. Is that feasible in everything? No because of mechanics but dang, that sounds more fun to play with that type of variety in a group than doing the same comp we have done the last 10 years.
Lead your raids the way you want, that's the best part of play the way you want.
Comps have evolved dramatically since I started playing though. Even right now in update 46, I know comps are pretty homogenous in the early endgame sphere, but past that it basically depends on the trial and the goals. To get rostered you basically need to be flexible enough to play multiple classes as needed.1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭I subtly made this point earlier too. But the amount of times I have had more than 2 healers want to join a prog that were completely capable of content, or more than 2 tanks, is a lot. With this boost, perhaps group comp can completely change. 7 150k DPS and 3 healers and 2 tanks could be a plausible way to prog something now and including more people you actually enjoy playing with vs interviewing for spots based on this top tier meta required to do this content in such a specified manner. This variety will do nothing but help the game. 7 150k dps is more than 8 120k dps. Is that feasible in everything? No because of mechanics but dang, that sounds more fun to play with that type of variety in a group than doing the same comp we have done the last 10 years.
Lead your raids the way you want, that's the best part of play the way you want.
Comps have evolved dramatically since I started playing though. Even right now in update 46, I know comps are pretty homogenous in the early endgame sphere, but past that it basically depends on the trial and the goals. To get rostered you basically need to be flexible enough to play multiple classes as needed.
They have evolved for sure but typically theres a pretty tight general setup for true end game with a small number of variables. Hoping this expands that tenfold.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I subtly made this point earlier too. But the amount of times I have had more than 2 healers want to join a prog that were completely capable of content, or more than 2 tanks, is a lot. With this boost, perhaps group comp can completely change. 7 150k DPS and 3 healers and 2 tanks could be a plausible way to prog something now and including more people you actually enjoy playing with vs interviewing for spots based on this top tier meta required to do this content in such a specified manner. This variety will do nothing but help the game. 7 150k dps is more than 8 120k dps. Is that feasible in everything? No because of mechanics but dang, that sounds more fun to play with that type of variety in a group than doing the same comp we have done the last 10 years.
Lead your raids the way you want, that's the best part of play the way you want.
Comps have evolved dramatically since I started playing though. Even right now in update 46, I know comps are pretty homogenous in the early endgame sphere, but past that it basically depends on the trial and the goals. To get rostered you basically need to be flexible enough to play multiple classes as needed.
They have evolved for sure but typically theres a pretty tight general setup for true end game with a small number of variables. Hoping this expands that tenfold.
The restrictive part is the 4 support dds. The other 4-5 dds vary tremendously depending on the trial and goals.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭I subtly made this point earlier too. But the amount of times I have had more than 2 healers want to join a prog that were completely capable of content, or more than 2 tanks, is a lot. With this boost, perhaps group comp can completely change. 7 150k DPS and 3 healers and 2 tanks could be a plausible way to prog something now and including more people you actually enjoy playing with vs interviewing for spots based on this top tier meta required to do this content in such a specified manner. This variety will do nothing but help the game. 7 150k dps is more than 8 120k dps. Is that feasible in everything? No because of mechanics but dang, that sounds more fun to play with that type of variety in a group than doing the same comp we have done the last 10 years.
Lead your raids the way you want, that's the best part of play the way you want.
Comps have evolved dramatically since I started playing though. Even right now in update 46, I know comps are pretty homogenous in the early endgame sphere, but past that it basically depends on the trial and the goals. To get rostered you basically need to be flexible enough to play multiple classes as needed.
They have evolved for sure but typically theres a pretty tight general setup for true end game with a small number of variables. Hoping this expands that tenfold.
The restrictive part is the 4 support dds. The other 4-5 dds vary tremendously depending on the trial and goals.
Yea maybe to an extent. I mean, looking at comps though, right now arc is still dominant. So its really zero change from that. Youre typically looking at right now a dk, a plar/sorc/cro, then the rest typically contain 4-6 arcs. I think the dps going so high could cause more variety being an option, because it can go so high that some buffs and min/maxing isnt even needed as much. I guess wel see. And again, if this goes live, i see 5 supports 7 dps happening for sure in some instances. That is a comp evolution i really have never seen outside maybe VCR3.0 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."Edited by DimeN3Pennys on 18 April 2025 01:302 -
TORCH15✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol.
And I'd counter and say that I don't think you realize how many players quit because they can't meet dps standards set by our bubble.
Semi fair point in your analogy of other games. But if you say things like XS is 95% supports, then this power boost to dps wont make things easy mode anyways right?
I think this power boost doomsday ritual going on in these forums is completely blown out of proportion. And as I said, it's a bunch of people already in top tier groups so I think there's another reason for the frustration and it really isn't a positive, good quality one lol.
Mechanics still will exist. Hard mechanics. Those will still challenge people the same. But this power boost will cause a lot more inclusion for that chance to get something they couldn't even touch before. HM challenges are meant to be hard. But I think you underestimate the amount of players that can't do it and quit the game because they can't get past set restrictions in groups. How many trials guilds have died and not filled because people are bored of vet trials. But a lot of people bored of vet trials also can't get past prog group requirements. Stuck. No where to go. Then quit. That's where we are outside the leaderboard echochamber.0 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol.
And I'd counter and say that I don't think you realize how many players quit because they can't meet dps standards set by our bubble.
Semi fair point in your analogy of other games. But if you say things like XS is 95% supports, then this power boost to dps wont make things easy mode anyways right?
I think this power boost doomsday ritual going on in these forums is completely blown out of proportion. And as I said, it's a bunch of people already in top tier groups so I think there's another reason for the frustration and it really isn't a positive, good quality one lol.
Mechanics still will exist. Hard mechanics. Those will still challenge people the same. But this power boost will cause a lot more inclusion for that chance to get something they couldn't even touch before. HM challenges are meant to be hard. But I think you underestimate the amount of players that can't do it and quit the game because they can't get past set restrictions in groups. How many trials guilds have died and not filled because people are bored of vet trials. But a lot of people bored of vet trials also can't get past prog group requirements. Stuck. No where to go. Then quit. That's where we are outside the leaderboard echochamber.
Yes, the power boost won't make things easy mode. That is indeed exactly what I'm saying. Which is why there's no reason to trivialize the entire game for the people who are able to do it. If you remember, I already said I'm fine with raising the floor, just don't raise the ceiling by 50% because it will kill groups and make players quit. So I think that's a very good reason. I'm all for more inclusion but I still want the game to be challenging for me, so I think that is a positive, good quality argument.Edited by DimeN3Pennys on 18 April 2025 01:496 -
TORCH15✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical1 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
Lol you choose the difficulty in this game too. It's called vet vs hard mode. That allows you to do all the content at your skill level as you so eloquently put it
I don't brag to anyone, I put stuff on YouTube so I can have fun tracking my journey. That's why everything from day one shitshows to the end of the prog is on my channel, and not just clearsEdited by DimeN3Pennys on 18 April 2025 01:550 -
TORCH15✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
Lol you choose the difficulty in this game too. It's called vet vs hard mode. That allows you to do all the content at your skill level as you so eloquently put it
I don't brag to anyone, I put stuff on YouTube so I can have fun tracking my journey. That's why everything from day one shitshows to the end of the prog is on my channel, and not just clears
Again, continue playing as pure classes then. Does that not solve the issue for you and your group's concern? It will be just as rewarding as before yes? Or do you have issue with other's experience?0 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
"Stip playing the way you are" is also a cope. The game is finely tuned for the power level in the game. And it allows for flexibility. Our group in particular has been *** on for using too many barriers and defensive ults instead of going all out damage, whoch proves there's already leeway in the game0 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.3
This discussion has been closed.