Give subclassing downsides

ApoAlaia · April 17

Subclassing is going to be available for everyone from day 1. Is not behind a paywall of any kind.

Seems reasonable that subclassing will not just increase flexibility, it will also increase 'power'.

Me personally I had enough of patch after patch being 'is the same as the previous patch, but now is purple and swirly instead of blue and wispy'.

Furthermore not subclassing is definitely a choice players will be able to make, but that may also come with downsides like any self-imposed limitation does.

What is being asked in this thread seems to me 'I would like everyone to bear the consequences of my self-imposed limitations'.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 17

CahirMawrDyffryn wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

This. I haven't ever been able to even reach even close to 100k and I couldn't care less! Sure I'm working on improving but I'll choose having fun and being *somewhat* unique in my own right over just copy pasting what is strong just cuz it's good numbers any day.

It's cool new stuff to play around with and that's what I mainly care about. Crazy min-maxing has always been a thing and it always had one big glaring drawback too: it's boring as hell. I'll just have fun with all the new options, not obsess over what's best on paper.

This is so shortsighted, I don’t even bother to corrct this tbh.

gorynych_88 · April 17

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Furthermore not subclassing is definitely a choice players will be able to make, but that may also come with downsides like any self-imposed limitation does.

What is being asked in this thread seems to me 'I would like everyone to bear the consequences of my self-imposed limitations'.

In which Universe it's a sane idea overall? To nerf base game classes and abilities and to make players that don't want get into experiments with new mechanics be downpowered in OLD content even, I mean not only giving minmaxers and PvP exploiters go further away from others but punish that others even more for nothing? It's not a good joke, if anything is added to the game it could be OP, it's marketing ofc, but the systems already working for decade shouldn't occasionally hurt old playerbase for no reason. I'ts just nonesence! And it's just a fat and silly trolling to call it some kind of "self-limitations" caus at this moment it's a stragith penalties for players that prefer to keep their class identity as it started to being applied on PTS with only downgrades to class abilities (and even not in the numbers only but the whole their mechanics! As it was expected tbh from the very announce and it's the most laymanic and gamebreaking way to solve this situation at all), instead of at least even making multiclass just ahead. Players for real are restricted to make any choices (should they use that "new content" or stay with "self limitations"), they got raw fact in their faces that they will loose parts of power they already have and will anyways NEED to use this "new feature" like bandaids to at least get back to their old level of efficiency or gtfo. They tell it's "new variety" but in reality they just violate people to play only new way and cut that variety from other sides.

Personally I'd say not a word (knowing how this game crumbles time to time and getting fixes for years after) if they even make those multiclasses OP but without touching standart classes and make some wise restrictions for that in PvP. That's really enough as minimalistic working plan. But they not only add new imbalanced mechs but try to break all the game experience for all the people who just want to play their classes as they got used to. It's really too much this time and couldn't be fixed after if will be applied in this form to live.

Simpe example - if they didn't save characters power at ~the same level when they changed CP system back in the days (with all the new additions after) what it could made with game population that time? And what happened after that U35? But it seems they didn't learn a lesson and now try to get rid of even more noticeable (and loyal enough to struggle through all their experiments for years) part of playerbase.

Ragnarok0130 · April 17

Vylaera wrote: »

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

Most of the player base doesn't seem to know what a build or a set bonus is either but that doesn't mean we should balance the game around them. The devs have to look at end game PVP and PVE for balancing or that part of the game will be trivialized and die. The normal overland guys won't notice anything regardless because they're still going to be fine doing 5K dps with 30 other players running dolmens in Auridon.

madmufffin · April 17

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

Most of the player base doesn't seem to know what a build or a set bonus is either but that doesn't mean we should balance the game around them. The devs have to look at end game PVP and PVE for balancing or that part of the game will be trivialized and die. The normal overland guys won't notice anything regardless because they're still going to be fine doing 5K dps with 30 other players running dolmens in Auridon.

Correct. All you have to do is queue for random normal dungeons and you realize the vast majority of this game's playerbase has no idea what they're doing.

Also, instead of giving subclassing downsides, the better solution is to give not subclassing more benefits. I know everyone in this community has been conditioned to think 'just nerf it' is the solution, but you actually are allowed to just make other things better. It's not against the rules.

gorynych_88 · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Also, instead of giving subclassing downsides, the better solution is to give not subclassing more benefits. I know everyone in this community has been conditioned to think 'just nerf it' is the solution, but you actually are allowed to just make other things better. It's not against the rules.

Wise words indeed. And I really hope they will stop that nerfs, roll already happened back and think about it a bit more, caus for now they choose the worst option to implement those system and "balance" it. And let's be honest - even not the easiest or requiring the less work option, that's the most shocking.
But I fear it won't happen tbh, judging on how it was announced occasionally, without any plans to it (sounded like late 1st April's joke tbh at first with that picture) after there were ton of comments to new Chapter including for some reason things like "I don't want to pay for that new expansion, there is small amount of new content". So it looks like they invented it out of joke in just few days after they got that weird feedback and now teamleaders want to apply it at any costs to June deadline, even if it will break all the things. And that's a huge mistake even if look from marketology position on the long run IMO.=(

I still want to believe they will listen to feedback at this moment, and will find ANY better ways to add this all and not make people suffer and quit game, but knowing that U35 experience...

Estin · April 17

I'm a fan of a 50% reduction in power for subclassed skills/passives. It's a large enough nerf to prevent major power creep, but not much of a one to make themed characters useless. Some classes would also still be able to swap out their redundant skill lines for an increase in power too to create builds that can compete with the PvE meta but not be stronger than it overall. I did also suggest not allowing morphs, but allowing whether a skill cost magicka or stamina. This should be a quick thing for ZOS to implement, potentially with only a 1-2 month release delay.

But honestly, I would like to see more thought be put behind it. Using lore as the primary reason, you aren't naturally the class you subclassed as, so you shouldn't be as proficient/potent as someone who is. This should create downsides for skills, such as arcanist beam only hitting 6 targets, costs more, and deals less damage. That way natural arcanists can still have their full power beam. Cloak could only last for 2-3 seconds, but have a 5-10 second cool down so it can't be spammed by non nightblades in PvP. The list goes on for unique, lore friendly ways to implement subclassing that's not going to break the game, but this would take a lot of time.

It's absurd to just nerf all skills and passives so subclassing can fit into the game, but that's literally the only scenario if subclassing goes live the way it is. Once the honey moon period is over, even the overpowered themed players are going to get upset once they realize their skills are going to get smacked with a large hammer only because some people were abusing an over powered combination and because ZOS did not implement any way to separately balance subclassed skills.

necro_the_crafter · April 17

they should boil down class essentials to one " essential skillline", make it class locked, wich means that that essential skillline will not be acsesible for sub(multi)classing, while character of that class also locked from swapping it, but can swap up to 2 "modular skilllines".
That way we retain some class identity, while having diversity of sub(multi)classing.
Also doing it this way will be easier to balance class "essential skilllines" as classic "class balance" and "modular skilllines" (that could be swaped) as "module balance", thus destuingishing class balance from multi-class balance.

Thats the only compromise I see working, but I belive you can come up with many more that isnt gamebreaking as NecroArcBlade we see now.

TL;DR

Make at least 1 skill line per class that cannot be swapped, and also make it unavaliable for other classes to slot, to reatin at least some class identity and prevent gambreaking skill synergies that current sub(multi)classing sytsem allows, that way some of previously class defining skills can avoid potential sledgehammer nerfs in the future as well, while keeping new system fun, refreshing, and easier to balance

Finedaible · April 17

I'm of the mind that we should wait and see what happens on this one. Subclassing is a big change, but probably the most exciting thing they've tried to do in the last 6 years aside from Scribing.

Ragnarok0130 · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

Most of the player base doesn't seem to know what a build or a set bonus is either but that doesn't mean we should balance the game around them. The devs have to look at end game PVP and PVE for balancing or that part of the game will be trivialized and die. The normal overland guys won't notice anything regardless because they're still going to be fine doing 5K dps with 30 other players running dolmens in Auridon.

Correct. All you have to do is queue for random normal dungeons and you realize the vast majority of this game's playerbase has no idea what they're doing.

Also, instead of giving subclassing downsides, the better solution is to give not subclassing more benefits. I know everyone in this community has been conditioned to think 'just nerf it' is the solution, but you actually are allowed to just make other things better. It's not against the rules.

I do like bringing things to parity but buffing everything just adds to the power creep just as much as subclassing currently does on PTS causing other problems. I think buffing pure classes would be worth considering but then the subclassing aficianados will cry foul that they're being held back by wanting to partake in the new system and not getting the same power as the parent class. I think non-class skill lines should be less effective than a class line because you've spent your whole life learning the class so how can someone pick up a warden line as a templar and expect to be as effective as a warden with warden skills.

Overall the subclass/multiclass is coming off as a chaotic mess that will destroy combat balance and class identity in the game for years to come. I like new content but this system is giving me real cause for concern.

madmufffin · April 17

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

Most of the player base doesn't seem to know what a build or a set bonus is either but that doesn't mean we should balance the game around them. The devs have to look at end game PVP and PVE for balancing or that part of the game will be trivialized and die. The normal overland guys won't notice anything regardless because they're still going to be fine doing 5K dps with 30 other players running dolmens in Auridon.

Correct. All you have to do is queue for random normal dungeons and you realize the vast majority of this game's playerbase has no idea what they're doing.

Also, instead of giving subclassing downsides, the better solution is to give not subclassing more benefits. I know everyone in this community has been conditioned to think 'just nerf it' is the solution, but you actually are allowed to just make other things better. It's not against the rules.

I do like bringing things to parity but buffing everything just adds to the power creep just as much as subclassing currently does on PTS causing other problems. I think buffing pure classes would be worth considering but then the subclassing aficianados will cry foul that they're being held back by wanting to partake in the new system and not getting the same power as the parent class. I think non-class skill lines should be less effective than a class line because you've spent your whole life learning the class so how can someone pick up a warden line as a templar and expect to be as effective as a warden with warden skills.

Overall the subclass/multiclass is coming off as a chaotic mess that will destroy combat balance and class identity in the game for years to come. I like new content but this system is giving me real cause for concern.

Class identity doesn't really exist to begin with. Templar and DK are the only ones I would argue actually have it. Everything else is just a matter of what people associate with the class and that's not anything worth fighting to keep. Damage will definitely go up at the top end, but that really accounts for so little of the player base that I doubt it impacts their decision to push through with this change. I do think base classes should be buffed per additional skill line from their class, but nerfing the new shiny thing is just a terrible approach, especially given how ZOS nerfs things.

Pr0Skygon · April 17

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

And to the people who say "but we swap old skill line to get another, that's balance enough". Not even close, you'll swap 2 utility skill lines for 2 dps skill lines and further buff your stats. That's not a trade, that's a straight upgrade.

That approach doesn't work with the base classes. What's THE healing line for sorcs or DK etc? Old classes lines aren't role structured like the DLC ones.
And where would be the fun if you couldn't mix and match freely?

Subclassing feels like the last effort to keep "replayability" high when they finally decide to go into maintenance mode.

Did you not see I said "utility skill lines"? Cause I already know ppl like you will show up and "uhm actually" to correct me on minor detail like this. It doesn't need to be "healing" or "tanking" specifically. If it's not damage oriented, then it's utility focused, and if so, just swap it out for another damage oriented skill line, and voila.

And how can you interpret my suggestion as I'm advocating to prevent mix and match freely? How? I'm genuinely asking. I'm suggesting a debuff to main stats and do not interfere with how subclass player would interact with their skill lines. I'm talking about how trading 1 skill line for another is not a trade off, but a straight buff, and a downside to main stats would be a perfect counter mechanism. How can you read all of that and think "And where would be the fun if you couldn't mix and match freely?" How?