Give subclassing downsides

Pr0Skygon · April 16

People have reached 171k single target dummy parse on PTS, so clearly, subclassing is way too OP as of now.

So why don't it get any disadvantage?

Simple, make it like a vampire curse. If you activate subclass, you get reduced attribute point. The more skill tree you take from other classes, the more attribute point you need to sacrifice.

Problem solved.

madmufffin · April 16

It costs double the skill points for subclassed skills and passives

ForumBully · April 16

It doesn't get disadvantages because when you launch something new, it's a bad idea to make it worse than what we've already got

Zyaneth_Bal · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

It costs double the skill points for subclassed skills and passives

This isn’t a downside, it simply makes the entry point longer to reach for new players and is honestly weird

tomofhyrule · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

It costs double the skill points for subclassed skills and passives

So when you have enough skill points, then what’s the downside?

Opportunity cost ≠ downside

All the double skill point cost is doing is making it more annoying to add. Honestly, is shouldn’t exist.

Markytous · April 16

The idea would be that the downside is trading a skill line and all of its features for another. Its going to be a balancing nightmare for the developers long-term which makes me think that balance isn't really what they have in mind for this. They're being balanced in a sense that for example Bone Tyrant, Winter's Embrace and Shadow are "tank" Skill Lines that you would swap for if seeking more tank related active and passive skills. If one provides the most raw stats for HP and mitigation, the others will be inferior and therefore will be considered "fun" options.

TLDR the downside of subclassing is trading your current Skill Line(s) for another, which may not come with any downsides depending on what kind of character build you are pursuing. This will require every Class Skill Line to be "good" or else problems will occur day 1.

madmufffin · April 16

Instead of nerfing subclassing you should simply provide more benefits for not subclassing. There's no way to dial back subclassing without fundamentally nerfing the base class.

Xarc · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

Instead of nerfing subclassing you should simply provide more benefits for not subclassing. There's no way to dial back subclassing without fundamentally nerfing the base class.

nerfing the base class to nerf subclass is non sense

base class will still be behind subclassing, by doing this

madmufffin · April 16

Xarc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Instead of nerfing subclassing you should simply provide more benefits for not subclassing. There's no way to dial back subclassing without fundamentally nerfing the base class.

nerfing the base class to nerf subclass is non sense

base class will still be behind subclassing, by doing this

Base classes realistically won't ever be able to match the benefits of subclassing. There's no way to make it so that 3 handpicked skill lines aren't better than the combination of a dps, tank, and healing line build around a single class. You can however make it so that you get something like 15% more damage and resources for each skill line of your base class you use beyond 1 to help narrow the gap without fundamentally altering underlying numbers. Make it a permanent buff like Battle Spirit so that it's something that ebs and flows throughout your gameplay.

Markytous · April 16

Maybe a system that empowers your primary Skill Line (the one you cannot swap) would be cool idk. The implications of Subclassing is giving me a headache now. What about Necro?? What about Crux gen?? Skill Lines need to be overhauled tremendously to function independently.

ESO_Nightingale · April 16

ForumBully wrote: »

It doesn't get disadvantages because when you launch something new, it's a bad idea to make it worse than what we've already got

Adding any power disadvantages can make it really easy to make the system completely irrelevant. Even removing level scaling bonuses would be bad due to some skills that rank up based on duration.

Rkindaleft · April 16

Maybe this opinion is unpopular but if they're set on releasing Subclassing in it's current form the absolute minimum they should do is to nerf the tooltips of Subclass skills. It still wouldn't make it balanced, and I haven't given a lot of thought into what the numbers should be, but it'll lower the excessive numbers we are seeing and nerfing base skills from classes that are "pure" because some skills/setups are broken with Subclassing would just be dumb.

For a couple potential examples:

Rapid Rot 10% DoT DMG -> 5% if your main class isn't a Necromancer but you're using the skill line.
Merciless Resolve (or Relentless Focus in this case) 80 W/SD per stack -> 50 W/SD per stack if your main class isn't a Nightblade but you're using the skill line.

Wereswan · April 16

Markytous wrote: »

Maybe a system that empowers your primary Skill Line (the one you cannot swap) would be cool idk. The implications of Subclassing is giving me a headache now. What about Necro?? What about Crux gen?? Skill Lines need to be overhauled tremendously to function independently.

This is why I'm probably just going to switch to playing my Arcanist when this finally releases; a "pure" Arcanist will still be superior at generating and making use of Crux across the entirety of their toolkit.

Markytous · April 16

Wereswan wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Maybe a system that empowers your primary Skill Line (the one you cannot swap) would be cool idk. The implications of Subclassing is giving me a headache now. What about Necro?? What about Crux gen?? Skill Lines need to be overhauled tremendously to function independently.

This is why I'm probably just going to switch to playing my Arcanist when this finally releases; a "pure" Arcanist will still be superior at generating and making use of Crux across the entirety of their toolkit.

Right. Depending on the content, your Crux generating skills don't simply come from one skill line. The Blades (or Flail), Heal and Armor Buff (Sometimes Tomebearer's) are ways to sustain Crux gen and they derive from all three lines. Spending Crux, too. Runeward, Fatecarver, the healbeam and T. Dread are across skill lines. I don't feel comfortable with the implications of some classes needing a Skill Line swap and others literally being thrown off without maintaining their unique lines.

Wereswan · April 16

Markytous wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Maybe a system that empowers your primary Skill Line (the one you cannot swap) would be cool idk. The implications of Subclassing is giving me a headache now. What about Necro?? What about Crux gen?? Skill Lines need to be overhauled tremendously to function independently.

This is why I'm probably just going to switch to playing my Arcanist when this finally releases; a "pure" Arcanist will still be superior at generating and making use of Crux across the entirety of their toolkit.

Right. Depending on the content, your Crux generating skills don't simply come from one skill line. The Blades (or Flail), Heal and Armor Buff (Sometimes Tomebearer's) are ways to sustain Crux gen and they derive from all three lines. Spending Crux, too. Runeward, Fatecarver, the healbeam and T. Dread are across skill lines. I don't feel comfortable with the implications of some classes needing a Skill Line swap and others literally being thrown off without maintaining their unique lines.

Yeah, my main character is a Templar and all three of those class lines are probably going to get nerfed heavily because of subclassers, because they may not be a problem as a unit on a Templar, but they'll become one when combined with other things.

Ragnarok0130 · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

It costs double the skill points for subclassed skills and passives

Skill points are immaterial, it should half their resources and resource regen if it's balanced (or something similar as a penalty). It makes sense that one's base class would be the pinnacle of mastery. There is however no way that anyone would be able to master a "sub class" to the same level as their real class so there should be penalties to subclass abilities so someone subclassing as a templar or arcanist will never be as proficient as an actual templar or arcanist.

madmufffin · April 16

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

It costs double the skill points for subclassed skills and passives

Skill points are immaterial, it should half their resources and resource regen if it's balanced (or something similar as a penalty). It makes sense that one's base class would be the pinnacle of mastery. There is however no way that anyone would be able to master a "sub class" to the same level as their real class so there should be penalties to subclass abilities so someone subclassing as a templar or arcanist will never be as proficient as an actual templar or arcanist.

So just make subclassing useless. Got it. The obvious solution is to find a way to buff no using subclassing by giving damage and/or resources for using more of your base class skill lines. Having people lose a ton of resources to the point that the benefit is negligible would undermine the premise entirely. It should be stronger. It's a full 3 line specialization for your role. You just need to close the gap between the two by raising base class up not killing the subclassing.

Rungar · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

Instead of nerfing subclassing you should simply provide more benefits for not subclassing. There's no way to dial back subclassing without fundamentally nerfing the base class.

actually there is a way. just split passives into three tiers from the two that exist already and the level of your passives you can get equals the number of core class lines you have.

full passives= 3 same class skill lines.
level 2 passives on the 2 skills lines you keep and lv 1 on the subclass skill line
level 1 if you choose three different class lines.

so yes it is possible to balance without gutting the base class. People will still make and find builds stronger than core classes but it will be a little harder to do, and wont be so extreme. max raw power for base classes and max flexibity and synergy potential for hybrid classes

Markytous · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

It costs double the skill points for subclassed skills and passives

Skill points are immaterial, it should half their resources and resource regen if it's balanced (or something similar as a penalty). It makes sense that one's base class would be the pinnacle of mastery. There is however no way that anyone would be able to master a "sub class" to the same level as their real class so there should be penalties to subclass abilities so someone subclassing as a templar or arcanist will never be as proficient as an actual templar or arcanist.

So just make subclassing useless. Got it. The obvious solution is to find a way to buff no using subclassing by giving damage and/or resources for using more of your base class skill lines. Having people lose a ton of resources to the point that the benefit is negligible would undermine the premise entirely. It should be stronger. It's a full 3 line specialization for your role. You just need to close the gap between the two by raising base class up not killing the subclassing.

I agree that nerfing is not the way to success here however the developers have already hit the DK and Sorc skill lines due to Subclassing and this is just the beginning. My point with that is that you're right but ZOS has already decided they have a vision on what each skill line is classified as and how they should be standardized upon. DK lost sustain and Sorc has lost an entire skill line (Daedric Summoning) if you aren't into building for pets. They're gonna be going back and forth a lot buffing and nerfing things and this is just the beginning. Also the technical nerf on Necromancer via pets/corpse cap. These are consequences of Subclassing that tell me that maybe ZOS is biting off more than they can chew.

I'm not against Subclassing. My problem is that I don't think the game (or developers) is ready yet for it, if that makes sense.

opaj · April 17

So, uh... Making subclass skill lines take a nerf lowers the ceiling, but it also lowers the floor. I do see the appeal of a blanket approach like this, but this approach could ruin the system for the people who are most excited for it.

said no one ever · April 17

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

People have reached 171k single target dummy parse on PTS, so clearly, subclassing is way too OP as of now.

So why don't it get any disadvantage?

Simple, make it like a vampire curse. If you activate subclass, you get reduced attribute point. The more skill tree you take from other classes, the more attribute point you need to sacrifice.

Problem solved.

there was no problem and you didnt solve it. So glad someone is successful with subclassing. The only reason to poo-poo subclassing is if you're no good at it?

sarahthes · April 17

said no one ever wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

People have reached 171k single target dummy parse on PTS, so clearly, subclassing is way too OP as of now.

So why don't it get any disadvantage?

Simple, make it like a vampire curse. If you activate subclass, you get reduced attribute point. The more skill tree you take from other classes, the more attribute point you need to sacrifice.

Problem solved.

there was no problem and you didnt solve it. So glad someone is successful with subclassing. The only reason to poo-poo subclassing is if you're no good at it?

Gosh, your username is accurate.

Anyway, a 40% power increase in a single patch is a little bit much, don't you think? Perhaps 20% to start would be a little better? That way it'll hurt less when they walk it all back.

gc0018 · April 17

sarahthes wrote: »

Anyway, a 40% power increase in a single patch is a little bit much, don't you think? Perhaps 20% to start would be a little better? That way it'll hurt less when they walk it all back.

Remember, the 40% is just for now, 3 days after the PTS open. The number can go higher later on.

Wereswan · April 17

gc0018 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Anyway, a 40% power increase in a single patch is a little bit much, don't you think? Perhaps 20% to start would be a little better? That way it'll hurt less when they walk it all back.

Remember, the 40% is just for now, 3 days after the PTS open. The number can go higher later on.

I feel like the real fun is going to start when trial groups start experimenting with combinations that aren't obviously broken individually (and thus, don't immediately draw nerfs in PTS) but enable silly stuff in group play.

Vylaera · April 17

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

Pr0Skygon · April 17

Vylaera wrote: »

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

Please tell me how a jump from 130k to 171k, a whopping 40% jump in power, is considered "fine". It's a clear powercreep on a macro level. I'm not doom and gloom like people calling this the "next u35", but you should not be able to trivialize the content if you want to begin with, let alone completely stomping it out like this.

Giving subclass a downside has nothing to do with preventing you from being able to personalize how you theme your characters, but puts a counter balance mechanism into the system.

If you don't ever want balance mechanism, then why the heck does vampire curse reduce your main recovery and increase your dmg taken?

And to the people who say "but we swap old skill line to get another, that's balance enough". Not even close, you'll swap 2 utility skill lines for 2 dps skill lines and further buff your stats. That's not a trade, that's a straight upgrade.

Jaimeh · April 17

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

And to the people who say "but we swap old skill line to get another, that's balance enough". Not even close, you'll swap 2 utility skill lines for 2 dps skill lines and further buff your stats. That's not a trade, that's a straight upgrade.

It's definitely a power up. Rich said in the stream they are aware of the power creep, but I'm not sure how extensively they tested everything, because numbers seem really high right now (not accounting for the bugs). One thing they could do is only allow swapping between the same type of skill lines, but players would find that less fun. And if they removed the passives that would kill the point of the system. Another idea would be to have a nerfed version of the subclassed skills, so there would be a downside to them, but again I don't think players would like that.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 17

Jaimeh wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

And to the people who say "but we swap old skill line to get another, that's balance enough". Not even close, you'll swap 2 utility skill lines for 2 dps skill lines and further buff your stats. That's not a trade, that's a straight upgrade.

It's definitely a power up. Rich said in the stream they are aware of the power creep, but I'm not sure how extensively they tested everything, because numbers seem really high right now (not accounting for the bugs). One thing they could do is only allow swapping between the same type of skill lines, but players would find that less fun. And if they removed the passives that would kill the point of the system. Another idea would be to have a nerfed version of the subclassed skills, so there would be a downside to them, but again I don't think players would like that.

Knowing zos by “being aware” they meant that they are going to take their usual approach and nerf the good skills with no regard for original classes’ power budget leaving subclassing(multiclassing) the obvious best choice by far.
And they have already started.

CahirMawrDyffryn · April 17

Vylaera wrote: »

171k is fine actually. There's no problem and therefore there doesn't need to be a fix.

You're free to treat the game like an excel spreadsheet and trivialize the content if you want to. Most of the playerbase won't though, and we'll have a fun new thing we can do to personalize how we theme our characters.

This. I haven't ever been able to even reach even close to 100k and I couldn't care less! Sure I'm working on improving but I'll choose having fun and being *somewhat* unique in my own right over just copy pasting what is strong just cuz it's good numbers any day.

It's cool new stuff to play around with and that's what I mainly care about. Crazy min-maxing has always been a thing and it always had one big glaring drawback too: it's boring as hell. I'll just have fun with all the new options, not obsess over what's best on paper.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 17

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

And to the people who say "but we swap old skill line to get another, that's balance enough". Not even close, you'll swap 2 utility skill lines for 2 dps skill lines and further buff your stats. That's not a trade, that's a straight upgrade.

That approach doesn't work with the base classes. What's THE healing line for sorcs or DK etc? Old classes lines aren't role structured like the DLC ones.
And where would be the fun if you couldn't mix and match freely?

Subclassing feels like the last effort to keep "replayability" high when they finally decide to go into maintenance mode.

Yudo · April 17

Would also resolve some concerns around identity to the primary class.