Subclassing Will Break This Game - 156k Parse (Far From Optimized)

madmufffin · April 16

Varana wrote: »

BTW, what about setups that don't use Fatecarver?

Anyone tried that on the high end, and how is it going?

There's lots of them hitting 150k+ and they're fun to play

LadyTatsu · April 17

I think this conversation is a little premature, considering that the pts is known for bugs and sudden changes and this particular one just launched.

That being said, I have two characters, my nightblade from 2016 and my arcanist (I've never used beam, and you guys have made me curious) that I made when I came back from an almost 5 year hiatus, there have been so many changes since before my hiatus to after that it's absolutely ridiculous. Some are amazing, like builds that you can save and not have to spend thousands to respec, and some are just annoying (merciless perma-glow why?), but going through different builds like trying a magblade (which was the go to for nightblades when I stopped playing) for the first time or building a pvp only build (which was hella expensive when you only had one character way back) is absolutely awesome when you compare it to Vet 14 or even when Summerset launched.

So I think whatever comes from this is going to be a new and exciting experience and that prematurely nerfing whole class lines or the entire subclassing system before they have even started seeing how things interact (or don't) together (which is the entire point of the pts) would be jumping the gun.

Teeba_Shei · April 17

Yeah the majority of pugs I group with in dungeons can't even do 20k DPS. I think the game will be okay.

madmufffin · April 17

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Yeah the majority of pugs I group with in dungeons can't even do 20k DPS. I think the game will be okay.

It is not uncommon for me to out damage dps on my tank in randoms just with wall, caltrops, and some heavies.

gc0018 · April 17

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

That's the issue. Balancing multiclassi g without making pureclasses absolute garbage.

Currently, all the DPS class has already became Arcanist, they are just Arcanist with a little bit fire buff, ice buff or evil buffs.
Even ZOS nerf the beams, the next "beam" will pop up in days.

Renato90085 · April 17

the great sword stuck bug fixed so i test in PTS
my live khajiit nb banner bis parse is 134k( lucky crit)
my real combat build i did 138k,,the real combat build parse near parse build ,it mean original nb have a big buff in pts
but i rng 3 dd skill line and in not familiar with build did 148k/148k/143k, i just feel buff stuck too good(gls 15% / nb 20%ult 450wd/ sorc /10% passive )
i think the dmg buff only Original class can own will fixed half the problem

madmufffin · April 17

Renato90085 wrote: »

the great sword stuck bug fixed so i test in PTS
my live khajiit nb banner bis parse is 134k( lucky crit)
my real combat build i did 138k,,the real combat build parse near parse build ,it mean original nb have a big buff in pts
but i rng 3 dd skill line and in not familiar with build did 148k/148k/143k, i just feel buff stuck too good(gls 15% / nb 20%ult 450wd/ sorc /10% passive )
i think the dmg buff only Original class can own will fixed half the problem

This is barely a 10% increase. Hardly that big of a deal for getting two additional full dps lines.

Ragnarok0130 · April 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

We knew dps numbers would skyrocket. Everyone knew that. Having three dps focused skill trees instead of one will do that.

Now we just need ZOS to communicate their goals for how to balance that. Whether it’s making top end content harder, or nerfing abilities across the board.

And this is where the fun starts. ZOS' plan in the last years was to close the gap between hard-core players and casuals, so every player can enjoy all kind of content the same way.
.

I agree with everything you said in your full post but think that eventually ZoS will have to admit that this is a fool's errand. The only thing keeping casuals out of harder content is dedication, practice, and accepting that "play your way" only works in solo content.

We saw during the U35 debates and the later Oakensoul debates that casuals didn't want to work to farm gear, improve gear, practice parsing, join groups and guilds, and get into discord to listen to raid lead call outs to run trials. They often acted like they were running dolmens and their raid group was just 30 randoms with no coordination in Auridon.

On the rare occasion that the casual did all of aforementioned things to raid and were using a proper oakensoul build they were normally unready for organized group content doing things like not ressing downed players, standing behind the healer, not listening to call outs because they skipped the traditional content pipeline of doing normal dungeons for sets, running vet dungeons to get monster sets, then moving to normal trials to get trial gear, then to vet trials that made them learn vital skills for group content like LoSing, blocking, roll dodging, positioning, reading boss telegraphs, stacking, setting up your UI, while learning the culture, etiquette, and expectations of raiding.

The crawl, walk, run method works very well and those who jump from overland to vet trials due to a severe spike in power creep from things like Oakensoul or the forthcoming multiclassing are doing themselves and others a disfavor because they don't know what they don't know because they skipped the learning phase.

Renato90085 · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

the great sword stuck bug fixed so i test in PTS
my live khajiit nb banner bis parse is 134k( lucky crit)
my real combat build i did 138k,,the real combat build parse near parse build ,it mean original nb have a big buff in pts
but i rng 3 dd skill line and in not familiar with build did 148k/148k/143k, i just feel buff stuck too good(gls 15% / nb 20%ult 450wd/ sorc /10% passive )
i think the dmg buff only Original class can own will fixed half the problem

This is barely a 10% increase. Hardly that big of a deal for getting two additional full dps lines.

Um ,yes because i first use this build and don't know how circle skill /addon not work so I am parse so bad,my guild member use same build do 167k

Renato90085 · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

the great sword stuck bug fixed so i test in PTS
my live khajiit nb banner bis parse is 134k( lucky crit)
my real combat build i did 138k,,the real combat build parse near parse build ,it mean original nb have a big buff in pts
but i rng 3 dd skill line and in not familiar with build did 148k/148k/143k, i just feel buff stuck too good(gls 15% / nb 20%ult 450wd/ sorc /10% passive )
i think the dmg buff only Original class can own will fixed half the problem

This is barely a 10% increase. Hardly that big of a deal for getting two additional full dps lines.

And in 345 ping parse, so my Dps will low than low ping player

FoJul · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

BTW, what about setups that don't use Fatecarver?

Anyone tried that on the high end, and how is it going?

There's lots of them hitting 150k+ and they're fun to play

Thank you, now that it is possible to hit decent numbers on other playstyles, people like myself can enjoy class fantasies while being able to do hard content.

(Im a rangeblade and swallow soul is by far my favorite skill) . The skill itself is still underwhelming but now I can still break 120k dps not 100% optimized with lag. (which means room for improvement).

People are missing the main point of this update.

Edit: ArcBeam is just overtuned

sans-culottes · April 17

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

My main’s a Necromancer and not an Elementalist. Not a Druid. Not a cultist of Hermaeus Mora. Why should I be forced to abandon a core fantasy archetype in favor of developing some silly mix-and-match multiclass character?

PS. Before the “Find Something New” crowd gets too upset, please consider that “pure” classes are now at a structural disadvantage relative to these multiclass builds.

FoJul · April 17

sans-culottes wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

My main’s a Necromancer and not an Elementalist. Not a Druid. Not a cultist of Hermaeus Mora. Why should I be forced to abandon classic fantasy archetypes in favor of developing some silly mix-and-match multiclass character?

Sorcs have fantasies of being a necromancer, Nightblade has fantasy of being a necromancer, even Arcanist has hints of necromancy.

If you want to keep Class fantasy as in how it traditionally is, then you don't really have too subclass. IMO, being able to mix and make more specific fantasies, gives it more of a kick when creating something monstrous. Like I'm going to be an evil templar.

Like a DarkPlar, or even give it a name like Templar of the Shadows.

sans-culottes · April 17

Those aren’t Necromancers, though. No one’s stopping you from making a DarkPlar or customizing your own theme. The issue is that subclassing makes it harder for those of us who do want to stick with a distinct, cohesive archetype to enjoy that experience without dilution. If every class becomes a template for modular mix-and-matching, then the original fantasy risks becoming ornamental at best. That’s the concern. Not that others are being given more freedom, but that the clarity and mechanical identity of existing classes is being gradually eroded.

PS. It’s fine that this is appealing to you. However, what you’ve suggested isn’t a Necromancer. I get the feeling we are talking past each other, as this argument doesn’t seem to gel for some people. As I mentioned before, the current “tax” for pure classes is quite high. If you’re into purely messing around with overland builds or whatever, then that’s fine. Many other players are going to be more interested in expedience than experimentation, though.

FoJul · April 17

sans-culottes wrote: »

Those aren’t Necromancers, though. No one’s stopping you from making a DarkPlar or customizing your own theme. The issue is that subclassing makes it harder for those of us who do want to stick with a distinct, cohesive archetype to enjoy that experience without dilution. If every class becomes a template for modular mix-and-matching, then the original fantasy risks becoming ornamental at best. That’s the concern. Not that others are being given more freedom, but that the clarity and mechanical identity of existing classes is being gradually eroded.

PS. It’s fine that this is appealing to you. However, what you’ve suggested isn’t a Necromancer. I get the feeling we are talking past each other, as this argument doesn’t seem to gel for some people. As I mentioned before, the current “tax” for pure classes is quite high. If you’re into purely messing around with overland builds or whatever, then that’s fine. Many other players are going to be more interested in expedience.

Maybe they can add in some passives on the skill tree's that work as sets.

For example, each necro tree has an additional passive but you can't receive that passive unless you have all 3 skill lines still.
It would say on the passive of each Tree :

Passive 1
passive 2
Passive 3
Passive 4
SET
Passive 1/3

Each passive tree would look like this and you either get 0 or all 3. To get all 3 you need all 3 Class skill lines of the original class.

This could provide an incentive for pureclasses.

OR you could go along the approach I have already mentioned in this thread and several others, and provide a 25% efficiency nerf on subclassed Skill lines. Meaning all skills and passives are 25% less effiecient , whether that be the base number or the damage itself.

sans-culottes · April 17

FoJul wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

OR you could go along the approach I have already mentioned in this thread and several others, and provide a 25% efficiency nerf on subclassed Skill lines. Meaning all skills and passives are 25% less effiecient , whether that be the base number or the damage itself.

I appreciate your good faith suggestions. I’ve seen other people suggest, e.g., that subclass skills be weaker than main class skills. While an interesting idea, I suspect this would lead the shiny new “feature” they’re rolling out to be DOA.

AdmiralDigby · April 17

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Yeah the majority of pugs I group with in dungeons can't even do 20k DPS. I think the game will be okay.

They will continue to do that dmg because the only way to do so little damage is to not even look at what your skills & sets do.

You can create a crafted gear setup to do 50-60k damage only heavy attacking.

TORCH15 · April 18

Your HH/SS will be a lot easier when this comes out. Bet it reduces your time to clear by 25% at least. Enjoy the extra time you will gain in life friend. It'll all be ok.

AdmiralDigby · April 18

TORCH15 wrote: »

Your HH/SS will be a lot easier when this comes out. Bet it reduces your time to clear by 25% at least. Enjoy the extra time you will gain in life friend. It'll all be ok.

We run 3.25 Hours a week. Slightly more than you. We don't want it to be easier. We like the challenge. Challenge makes it rewarding. It's not the outcome. It's the journey.

TORCH15 · April 18

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

TORCH15 wrote: »

Your HH/SS will be a lot easier when this comes out. Bet it reduces your time to clear by 25% at least. Enjoy the extra time you will gain in life friend. It'll all be ok.

We run 3.25 Hours a week. Slightly more than you. We don't want it to be easier. We like the challenge. Challenge makes it rewarding. It's not the outcome. It's the journey.

Then continue playing as pure classes and it will still be challenging and rewarding for you. That solves the issue yes? You'll get your experience and well get ours in our own way.

AdmiralDigby · April 18

TORCH15 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

TORCH15 wrote: »

Your HH/SS will be a lot easier when this comes out. Bet it reduces your time to clear by 25% at least. Enjoy the extra time you will gain in life friend. It'll all be ok.

We run 3.25 Hours a week. Slightly more than you. We don't want it to be easier. We like the challenge. Challenge makes it rewarding. It's not the outcome. It's the journey.

Then continue playing as pure classes and it will still be challenging and rewarding for you. That solves the issue yes? You'll get your experience and well get ours in our own way.

Not if they nerf skills to balance for Multclassing. Like they've already done with plar. I'm not against multi classing. Just balance it so it doesn't make pure classes obsolete. That's not fair to people who don't want to multiclass.

Theres lot of different difficulties in this game. Players can decide how much time they want to invest to get better and climb the difficulty ladder.

TORCH15 · April 18

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

TORCH15 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

TORCH15 wrote: »

Your HH/SS will be a lot easier when this comes out. Bet it reduces your time to clear by 25% at least. Enjoy the extra time you will gain in life friend. It'll all be ok.

We run 3.25 Hours a week. Slightly more than you. We don't want it to be easier. We like the challenge. Challenge makes it rewarding. It's not the outcome. It's the journey.

Then continue playing as pure classes and it will still be challenging and rewarding for you. That solves the issue yes? You'll get your experience and well get ours in our own way.

Not if they nerf skills to balance for Multclassing. Like they've already done with plar. I'm not against multi classing. Just balance it so it doesn't make pure classes obsolete. That's not fair to people who don't want to multiclass.

Theres lot of different difficulties in this game. Players can decide how much time they want to invest to get better and climb the difficulty ladder.

Any nerfs at this point would be negative, agreed.

AdmiralDigby · April 18

TORCH15 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

TORCH15 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

TORCH15 wrote: »

Your HH/SS will be a lot easier when this comes out. Bet it reduces your time to clear by 25% at least. Enjoy the extra time you will gain in life friend. It'll all be ok.

We run 3.25 Hours a week. Slightly more than you. We don't want it to be easier. We like the challenge. Challenge makes it rewarding. It's not the outcome. It's the journey.

Then continue playing as pure classes and it will still be challenging and rewarding for you. That solves the issue yes? You'll get your experience and well get ours in our own way.

Not if they nerf skills to balance for Multclassing. Like they've already done with plar. I'm not against multi classing. Just balance it so it doesn't make pure classes obsolete. That's not fair to people who don't want to multiclass.

Theres lot of different difficulties in this game. Players can decide how much time they want to invest to get better and climb the difficulty ladder.

Any nerfs at this point would be negative, agreed.

We are not in agreeance. They need to nerf multi classing by at least 25%. Efficiency nerf. I want Multiclassing and pureclass's to do aproximate the same DPS (+/- 5-10%). Not the current +50-70%.

Wereswan · April 18

Worth remembering: game balance is about more than just damage. There's been a lot of (justifiable) concern about the 170K DPS builds, but ZOS needs to see the overpowered healers and unkillable tanks this will enable, too.

AdmiralDigby · April 18

Wereswan wrote: »

Worth remembering: game balance is about more than just damage. There's been a lot of (justifiable) concern about the 170K DPS builds, but ZOS needs to see the overpowered healers and unkillable tanks this will enable, too.

This is a good point as well. However I'm more okay with this because typically the supports have a harder Job. I actually think more groups fail because of weak supports.

I don't want it to be trivialized by anymeans.

Wereswan · April 18

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Worth remembering: game balance is about more than just damage. There's been a lot of (justifiable) concern about the 170K DPS builds, but ZOS needs to see the overpowered healers and unkillable tanks this will enable, too.

This is a good point as well. However I'm more okay with this because typically the supports have a harder Job. I actually think more groups fail because of weak supports.

I don't want it to be trivialized by anymeans.

Yeah, I almost hated to bring it up for that reason, but at the same time it's important to get across to ZOS that this is a generalized problem with mixing and matching passives, not just something specific to damage (especially in PvP, where cross-healing and cross-buffing are already a big headache.)

sarahthes · April 18

Wereswan wrote: »

Worth remembering: game balance is about more than just damage. There's been a lot of (justifiable) concern about the 170K DPS builds, but ZOS needs to see the overpowered healers and unkillable tanks this will enable, too.

In the new trial HM I was able to have a healer do a pillager barrier, then do a horn, then do another pillager barrier shortly after the pillager cooldown was over.

That's obscene.

Of course with the current DPS builds you don't actually need Warhorn anymore, but that means you could drop an atronach, then a pillager barrier, then another atronach. For example. Or just straight up barrier every 25 seconds and every second one is a pillager.

RlyDontKnow · April 18

sarahthes wrote: »

The problem is if you nerf the buffs, the pure class enthusiasts wind up nerfed even further than subclassed characters.

I don’t know where you see any NB nerf at all. Just not doing those buffs to NB (bringing a pure NB to live level) or if you agree NB needs a buff, doing them in a different skill line, would already address a significant part of the issue that Assasination is currently vastly over performing on PTS and help get a subclassed build into more sane power levels (down to ~155-160k).