Are pure classes over?

Dojohoda · April 2025

Yes, originally you chose a class, for instance a Templar, but then you can become a whatever. Imagine seeing a templar in Cyrodiil, and you think, 'ok I know what a templar can do', but then the templar pulls a nightblade out of its back pocket and chops your head off.

edit: cleaned it up a bit

Destai · April 2025

I am still going to have some pure classes. I have so many toons, I will likely subclass the ones I don't like. I don't typically enjoy NB or Necromancer, so I can see me subclassing them. I have three wardens, so at least one will get subclassed just for variety. Same goes for DK.

sans-culottes · April 2025

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Man, as someone who has played theme builds for years (voluntarily after getting bored with endgame meta stuff), people sure can't comprehend a world in which it's okay to be nonoptimal for theme, haha.

It's a game, not a job - live a little. Play your weird Namira necromancer with medium armor Spell Parasite and Nobility in Decay, and settle for VHM dungeons without trials, and do arenas with friends who know you aren't the best. (They do exist).

Meta-chasing has killed theme for a long while now - and that's okay! Not everyone can have their cake and eat it too. I think the most fun I have had is trying to theorycraft maximum performance while staying in-theme. Sometimes it accidentally stumbles into goodness (I am a popular tank among my friends), sometimes it is awful (rip my Templar) and sometimes it's passable (my Arcanist is okay).

Nor do all MMORPG players want to run deliberately suboptimal theme builds. That should be okay, too. I made a Necromancer because I wanted to play as a Necromancer, not as a Warden or Dragonknight in disguise. Expressing disappointment with subclassing’s implications for class identity and balance isn’t the same as refusing to “live a little.” Some of us find enjoyment in refinement, clarity of concept, and mechanical cohesion. That’s also part of the game.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 2025

sans-culottes wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Man, as someone who has played theme builds for years (voluntarily after getting bored with endgame meta stuff), people sure can't comprehend a world in which it's okay to be nonoptimal for theme, haha.

It's a game, not a job - live a little. Play your weird Namira necromancer with medium armor Spell Parasite and Nobility in Decay, and settle for VHM dungeons without trials, and do arenas with friends who know you aren't the best. (They do exist).

Meta-chasing has killed theme for a long while now - and that's okay! Not everyone can have their cake and eat it too. I think the most fun I have had is trying to theorycraft maximum performance while staying in-theme. Sometimes it accidentally stumbles into goodness (I am a popular tank among my friends), sometimes it is awful (rip my Templar) and sometimes it's passable (my Arcanist is okay).

Nor do all MMORPG players want to run deliberately suboptimal theme builds. That should be okay, too. I made a Necromancer because I wanted to play as a Necromancer, not as a Warden or Dragonknight in disguise. Expressing disappointment with subclassing’s implications for class identity and balance isn’t the same as refusing to “live a little.” Some of us find enjoyment in refinement, clarity of concept, and mechanical cohesion. That’s also part of the game.

It is, but adding subclassing doesn't remove the ability to refine and achieve perfection.

A class is just a theme the devs have built "for" you, and they force you to adhere to (instead of doing so voluntarily). Now they're removing those shackles, to allow for themes that stretch across the rigidly-defined themes we had before. They're essentially saying "we know in the world of TES, a character theme could be a Templar of the Divines that summons skeletons or a nature-witch that spits poison and has a bear familiar. Since our pre-defined themes did not permit these, and there is no special reason why they are more or less thematic than any other character, we are opening the game up to let players define their own theme."

For me, sticking with the base classes is just saying "the theme the Devs built for this class is great, so I think I will stick with it." Which is fine! But it's still just a theme; classes shouldn't have special treatment from any other theme just because the devs used to rigidly enforce the theme.

sans-culottes · April 2025

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Man, as someone who has played theme builds for years (voluntarily after getting bored with endgame meta stuff), people sure can't comprehend a world in which it's okay to be nonoptimal for theme, haha.

It's a game, not a job - live a little. Play your weird Namira necromancer with medium armor Spell Parasite and Nobility in Decay, and settle for VHM dungeons without trials, and do arenas with friends who know you aren't the best. (They do exist).

Meta-chasing has killed theme for a long while now - and that's okay! Not everyone can have their cake and eat it too. I think the most fun I have had is trying to theorycraft maximum performance while staying in-theme. Sometimes it accidentally stumbles into goodness (I am a popular tank among my friends), sometimes it is awful (rip my Templar) and sometimes it's passable (my Arcanist is okay).

Nor do all MMORPG players want to run deliberately suboptimal theme builds. That should be okay, too. I made a Necromancer because I wanted to play as a Necromancer, not as a Warden or Dragonknight in disguise. Expressing disappointment with subclassing’s implications for class identity and balance isn’t the same as refusing to “live a little.” Some of us find enjoyment in refinement, clarity of concept, and mechanical cohesion. That’s also part of the game.

It is, but adding subclassing doesn't remove the ability to refine and achieve perfection.

A class is just a theme the devs have built "for" you, and they force you to adhere to (instead of doing so voluntarily).

Now they're removing those shackles, to allow for themes that stretch across the rigidly-defined themes we had before. They're essentially saying "we know in the world of TES, a character theme could be a Templar of the Divines that summons skeletons or a nature-witch that spits poison and has a bear familiar. Since our pre-defined themes did not permit these, and there is no special reason why they are more or less thematic than any other theme, we are opening the game up to let players define their own theme."

Essentially think of it as custom classing, perhaps.

For me, sticking with the base classes is just saying "the theme the Devs built for this class is great, so I think I will stick with it." Which is fine! But it's still just a theme!

Sure, but “custom classing” only works if all skill lines are equally viable and thematic cohesion isn’t undermined by mechanical incoherence. That’s the issue for some of us. If I want to play a mechanically sound Necromancer, then I shouldn’t have to abandon the class and build a patchwork hybrid to compensate. That’s not freedom so much as a workaround for neglected design.