Are pure classes over?

Tariq9898

With subclassing, certain skills and classes may be nerfed to oblivion due to overpowered combinations.

This could lead to pure classes being weak and “useless.” Which could force people to do subclassing just to keep up with the group/meta.

If ZOS wants players to have complete freedom in their build identity, pure classes should perform just as well as subclasses in both in endgame and roleplaying/single player aspects.

Subclass should be an added option. Not to replace pure class in terms of roles and performance. If I want to tank/dps/heal purely as a necro in a vet trial trifecta, I should be able to do that as good as any subclass combination. Not being forced to do subclass.

Do you think ZOS can maintain this balance? I personally don’t know but I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts. Are pure classes dead?

Tariq9898

I also want to add that I’m not against subclassing. In fact, there are combinations I’m curious to try out. I am, however, against making the pure classes useless or super weak when going against subclasses. So this is NOT about subclass vs no subclass. This is about making pure classes just as viable as subclasses.

If I’m in the mood to subclass in super hard content, I can do that. If I’m in a roleplaying mood to purely play as a flaming knight (DK). I will perform just as well.

ItsNotLiving

Option A: Yes Subclassing will be entirely meta and will have a massive advantage over anyone not using it.
Option B: They gut every class defining skill and anything fun related to the class and every class becomes homogenized slop for the sake of balancing this.
Have fun.

ForumBully

Dead? No more so than any other class or combo that was off meta before this change. People still ran them, people completed content. People had fun.

Tariq9898

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Option A: Yes Subclassing will be entirely meta and will have a massive advantage over anyone not using it.
Option B: They gut every class defining skill and anything fun related to the class and every class becomes homogenized slop for the sake of balancing this.
Have fun.

Well that’s not very roleplaying friendly 😅.

Zallion

I mentioned something similar in another thread but, pure classes need to maintain relevance and importance over subclasses. Subclassed abilities should have some sort of diminishing return factored into them. Significant increased cost of abilities by 30-50% and/or decreased effectiveness of abilities for example class X’s ability base tooltips for 10k, when subclassed by class Y it’s reduced to 7k etc for example. This would be a ton of balancing that I don’t exactly have faith in being achieved given the history and current state of balancing. But if it was, I could get more behind it.

QB1

The game should have never had classes to begin with

Ragnarok0130

QB1 wrote: »

The game should have never had classes to begin with

Correction, this should should never have subclasses. Classes are good and what the game was designed around. The devs should have just given us class change tokens like we've been requesting for years. No need to destroy the game and combat balance to appease the Skryim solo players .

gc0018

Yes, not just for class but also for most of skill lines. A class has strong and weak skill line is a result of balance itself. Some have 1 S skill line + 2 B skill lines, some have 3 A skill lines. Now everyone has only S skill line, all the other skill line are dead.

Orbital78

Maybe not in all cases, but would it not make sense for a dps to have three dps centric skill lines?

Holycannoli

QB1 wrote: »

The game should have never had classes to begin with

One character that can do it all and have all options available only works for a single player game like Skyrim.

Add that to a MMORPG and everyone winds up with the same few builds.

What this game would benefit from is proper subclasses. What’s on PTS is multiclassing. I’ll use Baldur’s Gate 3 and the paladin as an example:

Paladin is base class.

Oath of the Ancients, Oath of Vengeance and Oathbreaker are the paladin “subclasses”. They’re all still paladins but specialized and with some unique features.

Paladin/Warlock is multiclassing.

ESO now has multiclassing when it could have had an amazing subclass system with new passives, skills and ultimates that further specialized our classes.

Wereswan

gc0018 wrote: »

Yes, not just for class but also for most of skill lines. A class has strong and weak skill line is a result of balance itself. Some have 1 S skill line + 2 B skill lines, some have 3 A skill lines. Now everyone has only S skill line, all the other skill line are dead.

Templar doesn't work like that: Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath both have good damage skills, and Restoring Light is one of the best healing skill lines. Look through the various threads on the subject of subclassing, and you'll see all three come up.

Thing is, the whole is lesser than the sum of its parts. Each of those skill lines might have skills folks want to use, but you won't see anyone saying "I can't wait to play a Templar and add X skill line" because everyone knows Templars aren't a strong base class.

Unfadingsilence

Tariq9898 wrote: »

With subclassing, certain skills and classes may be nerfed to oblivion due to overpowered combinations.

This could lead to pure classes being weak and “useless.” Which could force people to do subclassing just to keep up with the group/meta.

If ZOS wants players to have complete freedom in their build identity, pure classes should perform just as well as subclasses in both in endgame and roleplaying/single player aspects.

Subclass should be an added option. Not to replace pure class in terms of roles and performance. If I want to tank/dps/heal purely as a necro in a vet trial trifecta, I should be able to do that as good as any subclass combination. Not being forced to do subclass.

Do you think ZOS can maintain this balance? I personally don’t know but I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts. Are pure classes dead?

Nah not at all atleast not for NBs lol my Stamina NightBlade will not change and my solo nightblade bomber will not change as well

alpha_synuclein

Holycannoli wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

The game should have never had classes to begin with

One character that can do it all and have all options available only works for a single player game like Skyrim.

Add that to a MMORPG and everyone winds up with the same few builds.

What this game would benefit from is proper subclasses. What’s on PTS is multiclassing. I’ll use Baldur’s Gate 3 and the paladin as an example:

Paladin is base class.

Oath of the Ancients, Oath of Vengeance and Oathbreaker are the paladin “subclasses”. They’re all still paladins but specialized and with some unique features.

Paladin/Warlock is multiclassing.

ESO now has multiclassing when it could have had an amazing subclass system with new passives, skills and ultimates that further specialized our classes.

This is the subclassing I would actually like to see.

colossalvoids

I have all possible concerns up for this but one thing is funny though. Vividly remember them saying that for PvP you should recognise what's you're battling against right away and easily distinguish combos etc. and how this hastily put together feature does go against it on full speed.

PapaTankers

Zos said that the power creep this brings is acceptable, so I do hope that they wont go all out to nuke individual skilllines in order to make it work.

I hope to not sound too dismissive with this, but it only really affects groups and players that minmax.
People who didnt werent conserned enough with meta in the first place. Their first consern was creative freedom, which that brings.
Current classes have and will keep on clearing the content.

Unless they do go heavy into nerfs or raise HPs of bosses across the board then that would be a different story. I guess we are gonna have to wait and see.

RealLoveBVB

Orbital78 wrote: »

Maybe not in all cases, but would it not make sense for a dps to have three dps centric skill lines?

Theoretically it makes sense. But in some content like HMs, trifectas or running without healers you sometimes need shields, heals or purges as dd too.

olsborg

Sadly yes, they will release it as it is and balance the game according to everyone subclassing minmaxing, anyone sticking to their pure class will be at a big disadvantage, unless they release something extra for pure classes, like XX% dmg increase for being a pure class. But they wont...

Yudo

With non pet sorcs being forced out of deadric summoning skill line, pure classing would just be a disadvantage in this case.

CalamityCat

I hope pure classes can still hold their own, but it certainly sounds like they're being nerfed to prevent the sub-class mutant combos from being too strong. At the expense of the pure classes themselves. Which sucks. Sub classing should be a choice, not something we're expected to do.

I'm keeping most if not all of my chars pure once the update is in and has a few patches to correct any craziness. My second NB can test some mutant builds and then I'll decide what I want to do with my main chars when I have a feel for how it'll work in reality.

Thorncrypt

TES games have always been about mixing and matching different types of magic, and melee to come up with a playstyle that you love, this builds on that.

Mayrael

Probably yes, but is it bad? I don't think so. We need to get out of the box. Classes are just a typical approach in MMO, to hold players a bit longer in a game because they want check other classes out etc. etc.

Why players like classes? One of the reasons is that they can have advantage over other weaker classes (look how meta changes and some players switch classes all the time to stay at the top of the food chain). With this change those players are losing their advantage, because everyone can use what they are using now.

It will be bumpy ride but in the end it will restore balance to the force

Ragnarok0130

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

With subclassing, certain skills and classes may be nerfed to oblivion due to overpowered combinations.

This could lead to pure classes being weak and “useless.” Which could force people to do subclassing just to keep up with the group/meta.

If ZOS wants players to have complete freedom in their build identity, pure classes should perform just as well as subclasses in both in endgame and roleplaying/single player aspects.

Subclass should be an added option. Not to replace pure class in terms of roles and performance. If I want to tank/dps/heal purely as a necro in a vet trial trifecta, I should be able to do that as good as any subclass combination. Not being forced to do subclass.

Do you think ZOS can maintain this balance? I personally don’t know but I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts. Are pure classes dead?

Nah not at all atleast not for NBs lol my Stamina NightBlade will not change and my solo nightblade bomber will not change as well

It’s a bit premature to make that claim. Your NB skill lines could become problematic when combined with other skill lines in a multi class build and through no fault of your or your class if you’re running a pure NB but be nerfed in order to balance those skill lines in the new multiclass game.

dark_hunterxmg

If you want a pure playstyle, go werewolf. You get locked in to 5 skills only with no variety and you have to think outside of the box, and then outside of that box to make it work. The only customizations are race/class, champion points, and armor sets.

Spacefish2323

I'm happy that people are excited to try new combinations for whatever reasons they see fit: roleplay, more powerful synergies and meta, whatever floats their boat. I'm upset that my main (non-pet PureSorc) is being nerfed in a way particular that it wouldn't be so bad if I did prefer to use a pet (which I never will).

Daedric Summoning is the name, sure, and most non-pet sorcs it will probably be their dumpline for like NB assassination. But Curse and Ward have been staple, iconic sorc skills for even non-pet builds forever. This isn't my ephemeral feeling of being left behind by an evolving meta, it's a nerf to my preferred and existing playstyle in order to balance subclassing.

Pure classes dead? No. Wounded? Yeah.

GloatingSwine

If you want to do group content with anything other than friends, then yeah seems like.

DPS for the right multiclass combo seems to be about 40-50% higher than for a pure class in ways that won't be able to be changed without nerfing one of the class lines involved into the ground. (Herald of the Tome/Gravelord/Assassination).

Get ready to be kicked from groups if you're not bringing that combo, because nothing else will be acceptable unless someone also demonstrates it peaking at 170-180k..

spartaxoxo

I'm pretty concerned about this because I have my sorc where I want her. I'll adapt, ofc, but I just feel like she's already in a good spot. My Night blade and Warden on the other hand are definitely getting subclassed. They never felt quite right.

Wereswan

Mayrael wrote: »

Probably yes, but is it bad? I don't think so. We need to get out of the box. Classes are just a typical approach in MMO, to hold players a bit longer in a game because they want check other classes out etc. etc.

Why players like classes? One of the reasons is that they can have advantage over other weaker classes (look how meta changes and some players switch classes all the time to stay at the top of the food chain). With this change those players are losing their advantage, because everyone can use what they are using now.

It will be bumpy ride but in the end it will restore balance to the force

I would like to hear more about what sort of unfair advantage my Dragonknight healer is losing once patch 46 arrives.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Man, as someone who has played theme builds for years (voluntarily after getting bored with endgame meta stuff), people sure can't comprehend a world in which it's okay to be nonoptimal for theme, haha.

It's a game, not a job - live a little. Play your weird Namira necromancer with medium armor Spell Parasite and Nobility in Decay, and settle for VHM dungeons without trials, and do arenas with friends who know you aren't the best. (They do exist).

Meta-chasing has killed theme for a long while now - and that's okay! Not everyone can have their cake and eat it too. I think the most fun I have had is trying to theorycraft maximum performance while staying in-theme. Sometimes it accidentally stumbles into goodness (I am a popular tank among my friends), sometimes it is awful (rip my Templar) and sometimes it's passable (my Arcanist is okay).

Kelenan7368

I don't think the3y are over but I think that pure classes deserve a buff that only pure classes can get.
I think its only right ZOS installs a pure class buff to incentivize staying a pure class.

shadyjane62

Eleven years a Templar. I'm too dang old to change. My fingers wouldn't cooperate anyway. Muscle memory is difficult to change in any case but at 74 it would be impossible for me.

For this reason I will simply play below 50 classes in lower PVP campaign. I have every chapter and in a lot of them I have never finished everything.

Most of all I will never give ZOS another penny. Even if they bring back my beloved jabs.