Subclassing Will Break This Game - 156k Parse (Far From Optimized)

Renato90085 · April 15

Stx wrote: »

We knew dps numbers would skyrocket. Everyone knew that. Having three dps focused skill trees instead of one will do that.

Now we just need ZOS to communicate their goals for how to balance that. Whether it’s making top end content harder, or nerfing abilities across the board.

From new trial boss health,I feel Zos want try harder endcontent,like I temember they nerfed all pve 10% health

sarahthes · April 15

FoJul wrote: »

They will still be on beamcanist, just with necro and nb passives...
Beam is ridiculous.

While I agree that arc beam is ridiculous, Subclassing will still bring out other playstyles that can break 120k DPS. Remember you do NOT need meta to get through current content. Just better than what we have now. Which is definitely a possibility now.

Now is that going to change the people (edited to be nice) that want the Max potential to "look cool". No, they are still going to do the things they have for years. There is always a crowd that only plays meta builds. Which is fine.

If people stop comparing themselves to the people who decide to play this way, the game would be such a happier place.

In HM trials, I do understand you would prefer the maximum potential. Stacking one class to burn through mechanics seems so lame, and imo kills the validation of getting the achievement. The only use I see in this method is the people who sell carries. Which also should be shunned.

In addition, I believe that beam is broken, and would prefer if it got tuned to fit this new subclassing feature. There's no reason to nerf a whole bunch of passives and skills that buff it more, when the initial issue is arc beam being broken, and has been broken for a while.

The primary issue I think is that while you don't necessarily completely balance around the top tier of players, you do need to account for them in some way when balancing.

I don't know what that looks like, but I do know that it does need to be addressed. The damage ceiling is now sitting somewhere near Neptune here on week 1 pts even taking the various bugs into account. While the floor has actually dropped I think.

FoJul · April 15

[/quote]

^ Edit: I don't know how to keep the quote short, I mess it up everytime.

The primary issue I think is that while you don't necessarily completely balance around the top tier of players, you do need to account for them in some way when balancing.

I don't know what that looks like, but I do know that it does need to be addressed. The damage ceiling is now sitting somewhere near Neptune here on week 1 pts even taking the various bugs into account. While the floor has actually dropped I think.[/quote]
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think the floor has dropped, thats almost impossible to tell right now. Like I mentioned in my first comment, pretty much everyone has access to Minimum requirement of like 120k dps for HM now. I don't really know the minimum requirements now, I have been away for 2 months.

That being said, we already know beam is an issue to the integrity of DPS. What will happen in the PTS is soon to come to light, but surely it doesn't stand. I have a friend that parsed 222k. Arcanist beam is 1000% an issue, and I'm interested into seeing what happens from here.

madmufffin · April 15

FoJul wrote: »

^ Edit: I don't know how to keep the quote short, I mess it up everytime.

The primary issue I think is that while you don't necessarily completely balance around the top tier of players, you do need to account for them in some way when balancing.

I don't know what that looks like, but I do know that it does need to be addressed. The damage ceiling is now sitting somewhere near Neptune here on week 1 pts even taking the various bugs into account. While the floor has actually dropped I think.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think the floor has dropped, thats almost impossible to tell right now. Like I mentioned in my first comment, pretty much everyone has access to Minimum requirement of like 120k dps for HM now. I don't really know the minimum requirements now, I have been away for 2 months.

That being said, we already know beam is an issue to the integrity of DPS. What will happen in the PTS is soon to come to light, but surely it doesn't stand. I have a friend that parsed 222k. Arcanist beam is 1000% an issue, and I'm interested into seeing what happens from here.

You can see in the buffs section this is a bugged parse that has 26 active stacks of solar barrage, which is a known issue right now on pts.

FoJul · April 15

madmufffin wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

^ Edit: I don't know how to keep the quote short, I mess it up everytime.

The primary issue I think is that while you don't necessarily completely balance around the top tier of players, you do need to account for them in some way when balancing.

I don't know what that looks like, but I do know that it does need to be addressed. The damage ceiling is now sitting somewhere near Neptune here on week 1 pts even taking the various bugs into account. While the floor has actually dropped I think.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think the floor has dropped, thats almost impossible to tell right now. Like I mentioned in my first comment, pretty much everyone has access to Minimum requirement of like 120k dps for HM now. I don't really know the minimum requirements now, I have been away for 2 months.

That being said, we already know beam is an issue to the integrity of DPS. What will happen in the PTS is soon to come to light, but surely it doesn't stand. I have a friend that parsed 222k. Arcanist beam is 1000% an issue, and I'm interested into seeing what happens from here.

You can see in the buffs section this is a bugged parse that has 26 active stacks of solar barrage, which is a known issue right now on pts. [/quote]

I see that now, thanks for pointing that out.

This doesn't change the fact that with or without the solar barrage bug, other parses on other classes still show arc beam being well over the top when it comes to damage.

Edit: I'll also add, the reason everyone brings arcanist, is because its simple, over the top, and brings so much dmg it can bypass some mechanics.

Its not fair to other classes that have to juggle all 10 skills still perfectly to even get 75% of what arcanist can do with a few skills.

madmufffin · April 15

It's the single strongest spell in the current meta too. The mix and match of straight up buffs like Merciless and GLS means it's even stronger, especially with the skill itslef getting an 8% buff. I imagine it's one of several things getting tuned down in the next iteration patch.

Tommy_The_Gun · April 15

Every class skill was designed as a part of a toolkit. Each class has access only for a specific set of skills. If a class lacks certain tools, then there are options to use weapon / guild / world / AW skills. Later, scribing was added to add even more tools. This is how it works right now.

Now, once you will remove the restrictions of each class skill being assigned to a specific class and being exclusive to that class.... You will get exactly the issue you are seeing in this thread.

The very foundation on which combat was established in ESO is falling appart. Different classes with different skill trees. What is also important is that each class skill was never designed to be used in combo with a skill that is sourced from a different class. For instance, It is possible to use Blue Betty + Cloak and you will never run out of magicka. Or to combo Sorc Overload with NB Bow Proc. It is crazy. And this is just the tip of the ice berg. You can for example pick just class passives from 3 different "DPS" trees and dmg bonus alone would give you so much boost that you wont even need a rotation to do decent dmg.

This will lead to so many balance problems that ZOS will either have to nerf everything to the ground & convert every skill basically into what we have seen in "vengeance" mode, or just gave up & not balance anything cuz it will be pointless.

sarahthes · April 15

FoJul wrote: »

^ Edit: I don't know how to keep the quote short, I mess it up everytime.

The primary issue I think is that while you don't necessarily completely balance around the top tier of players, you do need to account for them in some way when balancing.

I don't know what that looks like, but I do know that it does need to be addressed. The damage ceiling is now sitting somewhere near Neptune here on week 1 pts even taking the various bugs into account. While the floor has actually dropped I think.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think the floor has dropped, thats almost impossible to tell right now. Like I mentioned in my first comment, pretty much everyone has access to Minimum requirement of like 120k dps for HM now. I don't really know the minimum requirements now, I have been away for 2 months.

That being said, we already know beam is an issue to the integrity of DPS. What will happen in the PTS is soon to come to light, but surely it doesn't stand. I have a friend that parsed 222k. Arcanist beam is 1000% an issue, and I'm interested into seeing what happens from here.

[/quote]

The reason the floor has dropped is because it's even easier to build out a bad setup due to the sheer number of combinations.

FoJul · April 15

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Every class skill was designed as a part of a toolkit. Each class has access only for a specific set of skills. If a class lacks certain tools, then there are options to use weapon / guild / world / AW skills. Later, scribing was added to add even more tools. This is how it works right now.

Now, once you will remove the restrictions of each class skill being assigned to a specific class and being exclusive to that class.... You will get exactly the issue you are seeing in this thread.

The very foundation on which combat was established in ESO is falling appart. Different classes with different skill trees. What is also important is that each class skill was never designed to be used in combo with a skill that is sourced from a different class. For instance, It is possible to use Blue Betty + Cloak and you will never run out of magicka. Or to combo Sorc Overload with NB Bow Proc. It is crazy. And this is just the tip of the ice berg. You can for example pick just class passives from 3 different "DPS" trees and dmg bonus alone would give you so much boost that you wont even need a rotation to do decent dmg.

This will lead to so many balance problems that ZOS will either have to nerf everything to the ground & convert every skill basically into what we have seen in "vengeance" mode, or just gave up & not balance anything cuz it will be pointless.

Somewhat agree to this, but remember if you take 3 DPS tree's, you're going to lack the other useful abilities, that give sustain/survivability. This was how the old ESO was. You had to really focus on sustain Moreso of anything else. You used to have to run 1 maybe even 2 sustain sets while using damage and survivability abilities to negate some of that.

One of the reasons why I'm actually excited about this, is you can literally make whatever you want. If I want to sacrifice sustain and being able to live, to guarantee a kill. So be it.

The only REAL issue I see for PvP, is everyone is going to stack polar wind and other warden heals. Ball groups are going to get worse. Maybe some fixes to how heals stack in PvP would be beneficial.

alpha_synuclein · April 16

FoJul wrote: »

While I agree that arc beam is ridiculous, Subclassing will still bring out other playstyles that can break 120k DPS. Remember you do NOT need meta to get through current content. Just better than what we have now. Which is definitely a possibility now.

You do not need meta to get through most of the content for a long time now. Yet a lot of the hardest content (especially the most recent one) is made in such a way that having more damage is giving you advantage.

FoJul wrote: »

Now is that going to change the people (edited to be nice) that want the Max potential to "look cool". No, they are still going to do the things they have for years. There is always a crowd that only plays meta builds. Which is fine.

If people stop comparing themselves to the people who decide to play this way, the game would be such a happier place.

In HM trials, I do understand you would prefer the maximum potential. Stacking one class to burn through mechanics seems so lame, and imo kills the validation of getting the achievement. The only use I see in this method is the people who sell carries. Which also should be shunned.

If anything should be shunned, it's the assumption that there is some kind of moral superiority in playing off meta.
If you want to do the things the old fashioned way, go for it.

FoJul wrote: »

In addition, I believe that beam is broken, and would prefer if it got tuned to fit this new subclassing feature. There's no reason to nerf a whole bunch of passives and skills that buff it more, when the initial issue is arc beam being broken, and has been broken for a while.

Indeed.

aestrivex · April 16

Xarc wrote: »

Here some questions.

In theory, everyone will do more damage. Is that a good thing?

It's not an entirely bad thing but it would be best if the increase in power level was slow moving. Prior to update 35 the game had power creep, but it was slow, over the course of years as sets were added to the game and the numbers around different skills were gradually adjusted to keep up with the content being released.

If everyone is now suddenly 15% stronger and it makes content that used to be pretty difficult, the recent vet trials and vet HMs, 40% easier, that's not a very good rate of power increase.

Is the gap between the very good players and the less good ones widening?

No. Probably not. If you can parse 170 now, you are probably the very few people who could parse 140 before. If you're like me, and you could parse 110 before, you might cap out at more like 140-150 now. I been testing stuff all evening and managed 132, but I didn't look at anything anyone else did and I already see some ideas for improvement. If bet if you could parse 90 before, you can probably do 115 now.

What is the point of ranking (arenas etc) by class now?

Not yet clear, but arcanist with necromancer is going to be very good, templar with necromancer, DK with necromancer, nightblade will be good with a lot of setups. I don't know the full answer yet.

Will the diversity of sub-builds be maintained?

Probably the same several skill lines will get used in a lot of different base classes. A ton of DPS will use grave lord and assassination, for example. So probably not.

RealLoveBVB · April 16

Stx wrote: »

We knew dps numbers would skyrocket. Everyone knew that. Having three dps focused skill trees instead of one will do that.

Now we just need ZOS to communicate their goals for how to balance that. Whether it’s making top end content harder, or nerfing abilities across the board.

And this is where the fun starts. ZOS' plan in the last years was to close the gap between hard-core players and casuals, so every player can enjoy all kind of content the same way.

Now to your balance solutions:
Making content harder would balance it for the hard-core players, but not for the casuals. Because the casuals have problems to beat hard mode content already and to make it harder will make it impossible for them.
Same logic hits when nerfing skills. Casuals tend to have not that much dps. So even if they get a buff with new skill lines and combinations, then the nerf hammer will bring them back to the starting point.

The only way to balance things from ZOS' side is to admit, that they made a huge mistake with introducing stuff like this and just rethink it.

Some years ago we had a similar case, where everyone got upset, when they decided to weaken light attacks and make heavy attacks the way to go, which would have made weaving useless. They also decided to not bring this change live, so there's hope they are as smart here too.

BananaBender · April 16

The main problem I have with this update is how much stronger Arcanist is compared to everything else. Builds that do not use the beam are getting much lower numbers even in single target let alone AoE. Now that Azureblight is nerfed as a group tool, no other class is even close to Arcanist, especially in AoE encounters (which is the vast majority of fights). In the new trial builds that build around buffing the Arcanist beam do almost twice the damage compared to non beam builds. If Arcanist didn't exist, I wouldn't be so opposed to this update, but in the current state it's beyond overpowered.

Also the argument that this insane level of power creep is fine because there are currently people who struggle with content is just stupid. This patch will do nothing to address that, because people who are not interested in optimizing or making a decent build wont do so even after the patch. Maybe they will stumble on something that is a bit stronger than what they are currently using on live or maybe they wont. But this will absolutely destroy any variety and challenge there was for anyone who wants to optimize even a little bit. You don't need to know how to play the game, you just have to put on a beam and look at the boss and you will do at least 150k in single target.

Subclassing is a great idea and brings a lot of fresh air into the game, but dear god do something about Arcanist!

AdmiralDigby · April 16

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

We knew dps numbers would skyrocket. Everyone knew that. Having three dps focused skill trees instead of one will do that.

Now we just need ZOS to communicate their goals for how to balance that. Whether it’s making top end content harder, or nerfing abilities across the board.

And this is where the fun starts. ZOS' plan in the last years was to close the gap between hard-core players and casuals, so every player can enjoy all kind of content the same way.

Now to your balance solutions:
Making content harder would balance it for the hard-core players, but not for the casuals. Because the casuals have problems to beat hard mode content already and to make it harder will make it impossible for them.
Same logic hits when nerfing skills. Casuals tend to have not that much dps. So even if they get a buff with new skill lines and combinations, then the nerf hammer will bring them back to the starting point.

The only way to balance things from ZOS' side is to admit, that they made a huge mistake with introducing stuff like this and just rethink it.

Some years ago we had a similar case, where everyone got upset, when they decided to weaken light attacks and make heavy attacks the way to go, which would have made weaving useless. They also decided to not bring this change live, so there's hope they are as smart here too.

You could quadruple their damage as and they still wouldn't clear it because it's the mechanics stopping them. Not dps (speaking in generalities).

yeeGK · April 16

ZOS really dont know how to do balance(or impotent on balance),they can't control the balance of the subclassing

katorga · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

It's the single strongest spell in the current meta too. The mix and match of straight up buffs like Merciless and GLS means it's even stronger, especially with the skill itslef getting an 8% buff. I imagine it's one of several things getting tuned down in the next iteration patch.

Ironically the nerfed sorc pet line because of potential interaction with other subclasses, and just said sorry, but just drop the skill line......and did nothing on how fatecarver interacts with other class lines.

So it is not like ZOS wasn't aware of the interaction potentials. They were considering it for other classes.

SundarahFr3akinrican · April 16

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

FoJul · April 16

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

We knew dps numbers would skyrocket. Everyone knew that. Having three dps focused skill trees instead of one will do that.

Now we just need ZOS to communicate their goals for how to balance that. Whether it’s making top end content harder, or nerfing abilities across the board.

And this is where the fun starts. ZOS' plan in the last years was to close the gap between hard-core players and casuals, so every player can enjoy all kind of content the same way.

Now to your balance solutions:
Making content harder would balance it for the hard-core players, but not for the casuals. Because the casuals have problems to beat hard mode content already and to make it harder will make it impossible for them.
Same logic hits when nerfing skills. Casuals tend to have not that much dps. So even if they get a buff with new skill lines and combinations, then the nerf hammer will bring them back to the starting point.

The only way to balance things from ZOS' side is to admit, that they made a huge mistake with introducing stuff like this and just rethink it.

Some years ago we had a similar case, where everyone got upset, when they decided to weaken light attacks and make heavy attacks the way to go, which would have made weaving useless. They also decided to not bring this change live, so there's hope they are as smart here too.

One way to fix this is separate PvP and PvE. People been saying it for years that we need this. As a core pvp'er I agree.

This will allow you to change things in PvE that are underperforming without having to worry about making something absurd for PvP.

Most MMO's today have separate systems. Vanguard is halfway proof that this is somewhat possible already. As well as battle spirit.

First example would be adding Double proc merciless resolve, for PvE only. This would make more sense than allowing this to happen in both contents.

tomofhyrule · April 16

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

...the same reason other people want to have their sorc shoot fireballs?

Some people designed their characters around the Class line. Some people like the way they play. Others are sad that their fantasy character didn't have access to other skills.

I don't understand why the people who are so gung-*** on "I want to have my character do a lot of different Class skills" can't comprehend that others' character fantasy is "I'm a pure Paladin with my Templar skills of light and I don't abide with trafficking with Daedra."

sarahthes · April 16

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

We knew dps numbers would skyrocket. Everyone knew that. Having three dps focused skill trees instead of one will do that.

Now we just need ZOS to communicate their goals for how to balance that. Whether it’s making top end content harder, or nerfing abilities across the board.

And this is where the fun starts. ZOS' plan in the last years was to close the gap between hard-core players and casuals, so every player can enjoy all kind of content the same way.

Now to your balance solutions:
Making content harder would balance it for the hard-core players, but not for the casuals. Because the casuals have problems to beat hard mode content already and to make it harder will make it impossible for them.
Same logic hits when nerfing skills. Casuals tend to have not that much dps. So even if they get a buff with new skill lines and combinations, then the nerf hammer will bring them back to the starting point.

The only way to balance things from ZOS' side is to admit, that they made a huge mistake with introducing stuff like this and just rethink it.

Some years ago we had a similar case, where everyone got upset, when they decided to weaken light attacks and make heavy attacks the way to go, which would have made weaving useless. They also decided to not bring this change live, so there's hope they are as smart here too.

You could quadruple their damage as and they still wouldn't clear it because it's the mechanics stopping them. Not dps (speaking in generalities).

Even on live there's people who have GH who have never done VCR+3 with portals. Or PB without having done a single Bahsei portal. Or Swash without doing bridge.

Most of these people are the top players in the game and wouldn't struggle with mechs, but sometimes they bring someone random along for the ride. For example a bunch of endgamers were doing "free carries" for gear and easy titles on twitch last weekend.

DPS can make you ignore the mechanics that casuals struggle with.

LukosCreyden · April 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

...the same reason other people want to have their sorc shoot fireballs?

Some people designed their characters around the Class line. Some people like the way they play. Others are sad that their fantasy character didn't have access to other skills.

I don't understand why the people who are so gung-*** on "I want to have my character do a lot of different Class skills" can't comprehend that others' character fantasy is "I'm a pure Paladin with my Templar skills of light and I don't abide with trafficking with Daedra."

Good news! You can now do both! You can play a pure class, or use subclassing!
As long as ZOS can behave themselves and not wreck things with wacky balancing.

Renato90085 · April 16

LukosCreyden wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

...the same reason other people want to have their sorc shoot fireballs?

Some people designed their characters around the Class line. Some people like the way they play. Others are sad that their fantasy character didn't have access to other skills.

I don't understand why the people who are so gung-*** on "I want to have my character do a lot of different Class skills" can't comprehend that others' character fantasy is "I'm a pure Paladin with my Templar skills of light and I don't abide with trafficking with Daedra."

Good news! You can now do both! You can play a pure class, or use subclassing!
As long as ZOS can behave themselves and not wreck things with wacky balancing.

but you know,this hardest part

Alag · April 16

I hope there will be some penalty for using skill line from other class. Like decrease efficiency by some percentage, allowing only certain amount of abilities, locking the passives... if it will go live in current stage, it might ruin the game.

Or just increase health, defenses and overal strength of monsters, especially in dungeons and trials. Right now, it looks ridiculous.

FoJul · April 16

Alag wrote: »

I hope there will be some penalty for using skill line from other class. Like decrease efficiency by some percentage, allowing only certain amount of abilities, locking the passives... if it will go live in current stage, it might ruin the game.

Or just increase health, defenses and overal strength of monsters, especially in dungeons and trials. Right now, it looks ridiculous.

Yeah i've mentioned this in several threads including the main feedback one. hopefully like a 25% efficiency nerf on subclassed skill lines or sum similar

AdmiralDigby · April 16

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

Someone could hit you with the exact same argument.

"I don't know why you want to multiclass so much?".

The reality is different people have different ideas of what's fun. What's most important is your fun, doesn't stop me from mine.

That's the issue. Balancing multiclassi g without making pureclasses absolute garbage.

necro_the_crafter · April 16

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

The same people that are excited about the possibilities will be the first to drop the game when its either too easy and/or too stale.

Yeah. This game, like many others, evolved to provide short-term entertaiment with seasonal content. Open world is stupid easy, most content can be cleared in a week of daily 3h playtime, pvp gets boring once half of population essentialy running the same copy-pasted build and the other half is ball-groups. So yea its not "I quit cuz game suc" it's 'Im squeezed as much fun as i could and now I move on to do other things that are more fun for me".

I started playing in 2016, and my jorney from level 1 to rank 16 took me like 9-10 month of active questing, runnig dungeons, naturaly grouping up out in a world and interacting with other players I meet. And it was fun, every levelup felt like achivement without getting crown tristat chiken as reward everytime I leveled. Long term dedication was something to be expected from an mmo player back in a day. But now with games on the market that proved short term entertaiment (fortnight, apex, etc..) that mmos are competing with for playerbase, you cant make money on the model that expects players to be dedicated to something that will be rewarding in a long term.

Thus seasonal content with simplifed diffuclty to icrease acsessabilty for different kinds of players, and players who see any new content as chalange - overcoming it and move on, until there is new challange to face.

Koshka · April 16

FoJul wrote: »

Alag wrote: »

I hope there will be some penalty for using skill line from other class. Like decrease efficiency by some percentage, allowing only certain amount of abilities, locking the passives... if it will go live in current stage, it might ruin the game.

Or just increase health, defenses and overal strength of monsters, especially in dungeons and trials. Right now, it looks ridiculous.

Yeah i've mentioned this in several threads including the main feedback one. hopefully like a 25% efficiency nerf on subclassed skill lines or sum similar

Yeah some limitations are clearly needed. I think it would be better if we could just pick a few skills from other classes instead of taking full advantage of 3 dps skill lines on one character.

Twohothardware · April 16

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Why do you need class identity when you can quite literally make your own class with its own identity in this new system.

I don't understand why people want their base classes identity so bad.

Someone could hit you with the exact same argument.

"I don't know why you want to multiclass so much?".

The reality is different people have different ideas of what's fun. What's most important is your fun, doesn't stop me from mine.

That's the issue. Balancing multiclassi g without making pureclasses absolute garbage.

Pureclasses aren’t a thing, it’s just something that people who don’t like change are trying to find an issue with.

For years we’ve been using weapon skill lines, fighters skill lines, mages skill lines, the Psijic skill line, and most recently Scribing skills to replace the skills we use on every class. For a long time classes like StamSorc barely even had more than one or two skills you used from the Sorcerer skill lines.

This is no different beyond its expanding the scope to allow more freedom into building your character, much like in other Elder Scrolls games.

Chibicosmos · April 16

If they're not going to make template weaker skills like with Companions, then I see a couple balance options.
1. Allow only support skill lines to be used and keep the first skill line unique and class only. In other words, you can take Green balance from Warden but not animal companion. You are allowed to borrow only 1 skill line at a time.
2. Keep it as is and ban subclassing in trials, arenas and Cyrodiil. Maybe leave it in IC to breathe some life there.

This is just way too unbalanced as it is. And while I can see their vision is just create your own class basically, it takes away identity and purpose. And based on what I have seen it looks like it's just beefing up Arcs anyway.

Varana · April 16

BTW, what about setups that don't use Fatecarver?

Anyone tried that on the high end, and how is it going?