Ball groups ruin Cyrodiil

supabicboi · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

Impossible question to answer. A fair amount of zerg to bring them down.... are they a zerg wearing Deaths Wind and Varen's Legacy? Are they wearing PvP gear? Do they have any CP slotted? What's a fair amount of people a bomber can bring down? People who are good at PvP didn't just show up one day and become good. They practiced and experimented. The whole point of Cyrodiil is to PvP. Not get a participation trophy for showing up. I think gankers are overpowered. You can't see them, have no way of knowing when they'll strike, and there is no counter. Unless you build for it. And since randoms apparently don't have the ability to build to defend against gankers, then we'll just say everything that takes thought and sacrifice ruins Cyrodiil.

Pasting sth I wrote about ballgroups in this thread: The future Consolidation of Cyrodil

Ballgroups weren't as big of an issue before, they are at its very peak of disgustingness, there is no need to elaborate on this point as it is very clear, BUT I feel like many people havent really participated in a super optimized ballgroup, and here are some insider insights. Disclaimer: many ballgroups nowadays consist of more than 12 man in a group, meaning within the games setting, they arent in the same group. Therefore it can be assumed that they are so sweaty that they would be in voice chat to follow the lead. What this point really means is = some guilds, groups, are shameless and would zerg group in order to win a fight, and 12 man groups is not enough for them to be effective, cuz, well. they suck. resorting to finding strength in numbers rather than skill.

Zerg ballgrouping, and 12-8 man ballgrouping are 2 different concepts. 12-8 man ballgroups requires a lot more skill, Duh. theres less healers, less room for error, etc etc. it doesn't mean they aren't a nuisance/ trouble maker now in PvP, im just straight up saying they are the ones i would find impressive, while other zerg ball groups are shameless. I want to name guild names, but if you know, you know. I find 'small' ballgroups actually impressive simply because they are the embodiment of peak group play in ESO MMO, you cannot deny this as a fact.

Current problems with ballgroups (zerg balls or small balls) now - Overheal, OP ROA pulling sets, sheild stacks, over optimization leading to Group V Alliance stack, etc.. etc.. I agree Ball groups needs be adjusted so that there are more weaknesses to such groups, create vulnerabilities in them through target nerfs, and their peak annoyance levels will lower back to slightly acceptable standards.

The CORE issue with current ballgroups can be summed up with - combination of sets that have very polarized and specialized utilization in a group setting( that would otherwise be mediocre in a solo setting), meaning, you have 12 players in a group, each player themselves have an effect that would multiple the effectiveness of others in the group, this is not just the trial buff sets; for instance - ball group DPS damage dealers can be hyper-specialized in only dmg, they leave all their health and sustainability to other players in the group that would cover that aspect for them, making them extremely lethal. Healers that are able to overheal the whole group and give a ton of sustain, etc. all of them synergize with each other, a ball group.

potential solution - Make it so that its harder for them to play, make it so that grouping has a cost. Im sure the peak ballgroupers would actually enjoy the challenge. Weakening ballgroup sets/bonuses/ optimization levels, would also then cull the shameless/weaker 'ball groups', hence making 'real' ball groups that can stand on their own something more rare, and therefore actually impressive, and a good showcase of peak group play in ESO PvP.

Yes, applying a debuff to anyone that groups seems off and punishing those pug and small groups. Perhaps a Nerf like a status given to groupers (like a group nerf that goes up like a vamp cost debuff, the more players in group, the more costs, the more resource heavy. Small groups up to ~5 players should have minimal debuffs)

If its just numbers stacking together, surfing a zerg wave - thats awfully shameful, thats not ball grouping. pointing fingers to all those guilty.

Stridig · April 9

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

xylena_lazarow · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Outside-game logistics. So yes, all the prep work they do on Discord outside the game. All the scheduling their leisure time, structuring their social lives. Figuring out who to even ask about joining, then getting interviewed like it's a job. Being willing to spend on class tokens or faction tokens to keep up with the group's demands.

CanAPanda · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Your question has been answered multiple times in multiple ways. You deciding not to accept any of those answers because, in your opinion, they aren't valid answers isn't anyone's problem but yours. You are acting like you are the judge in this situation when you are just another player whose opinion isn't any more important than any other player regardless of your play time.

Stridig · April 9

CanAPanda wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Your question has been answered multiple times in multiple ways. You deciding not to accept any of those answers because, in your opinion, they aren't valid answers isn't anyone's problem but yours. You are acting like you are the judge in this situation when you are just another player whose opinion isn't any more important than any other player regardless of your play time.

My question has been answered with opinions. There's nothing against the rules about using spreadsheets or hitting synergies. There's nothing unfair about using Discord or class change tokens. There's nothing unfair about joining a group or practicing in their spare time. So far those are the things that have been considered unfair. Are they cheesy? Yes. Is it over the top? Yes. Are people emotional about it? Clearly, yes. ZOS has already commented on this. But what happens is people get harassed, bullied, and publicly shamed for playing the game within the games rule set. Geez

Heren · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Didn't read all the previous argumentations, but I'd say the problem is not really about ball groups having a possible 'unfair' advantage, but rather ball groups constituting an 'unfair' threat. I'm no expert in fighting ball groups, but from what i've seen here the only answer to beat ball groups seems to be... form a better ball group.

And that's fair in some ways - improve your skill is generaly a valid answer I think. But also a lot of pvp games try to differentiate players by skill lvl, in order to offer a fair competitive environment. You get matched ( with and ) against people of similar skill lvl ( idealy ), and matchmaking will change according to your progress ( or lack of ). And, idealy of course, your competitive experience will be satisfying ( generaly ).

If I begin to play some famous fps game, and in the match I'm in there's regularly some league lvl players, I don't think I will find the experience enjoyable. And I'd say I would prefer to stay with and against players in my league, where I might kill some players, will definitely be killed by other players, but most likely won't find myself entirely helpess.

Now, welcome to ESO pvp, gray host, where there is no matchmaking, where players of all skill lvl fight against one another, where the apex predators have the full ability to reign supreme. There might be no unfair advantage involved, yet the result might not be a good one overall - well appart from the apex predators of course.

And in many ways, this kind of situation, players of all skill lvl getting thrown together, good result in a not so bad situation. But, and this might be considered, maybe not an unfair advantage, but rather a wildly unbalanced one - ball groups today have some kind of exponential power. They are incredibly strong, and even if it's not because of an unfair advantage, it might still be concerning. And frankly I think it is, and that balancing is due, one way or another.

Anyway, we all have our turn-off.

xylena_lazarow · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

There's nothing against the rules about using spreadsheets

Nobody said that. Stop moving the goalposts. You don't need to break rules to gain an unfair advantage.

CanAPanda · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

CanAPanda wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Your question has been answered multiple times in multiple ways. You deciding not to accept any of those answers because, in your opinion, they aren't valid answers isn't anyone's problem but yours. You are acting like you are the judge in this situation when you are just another player whose opinion isn't any more important than any other player regardless of your play time.

My question has been answered with opinions. There's nothing against the rules about using spreadsheets or hitting synergies. There's nothing unfair about using Discord or class change tokens. There's nothing unfair about joining a group or practicing in their spare time. So far those are the things that have been considered unfair. Are they cheesy? Yes. Is it over the top? Yes. Are people emotional about it? Clearly, yes. ZOS has already commented on this. But what happens is people get harassed, bullied, and publicly shamed for playing the game within the games rule set. Geez

People are probably getting harassed and bullied because, while playing within the games rule set, others are realizing that they are at an unfair advantage for all of the reasons Laz has listed and you continue to ignore.

Stridig · April 9

CanAPanda wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

CanAPanda wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Your question has been answered multiple times in multiple ways. You deciding not to accept any of those answers because, in your opinion, they aren't valid answers isn't anyone's problem but yours. You are acting like you are the judge in this situation when you are just another player whose opinion isn't any more important than any other player regardless of your play time.

My question has been answered with opinions. There's nothing against the rules about using spreadsheets or hitting synergies. There's nothing unfair about using Discord or class change tokens. There's nothing unfair about joining a group or practicing in their spare time. So far those are the things that have been considered unfair. Are they cheesy? Yes. Is it over the top? Yes. Are people emotional about it? Clearly, yes. ZOS has already commented on this. But what happens is people get harassed, bullied, and publicly shamed for playing the game within the games rule set. Geez

People are probably getting harassed and bullied because, while playing within the games rule set, others are realizing that they are at an unfair advantage for all of the reasons Laz has listed and you continue to ignore.

Ok ok. You can have your thread back now. I just disagree with saying it's unfair to do things that are available to everyone else. I agree it's broken. I agree it's cheesy. I agree it's sweaty. But unfair... meh.

WaywardArgonian · April 9

No-proc had a pretty decent balance for ballgroups. Without Snow Treaders, pull sets and sets like VD/PB, and without buff sets, it was more skill-based and you could see that ballgroups with subpar players did not have much success.

In the end, ballgroups are just the meta of group play and they will be around in one form or another no matter the ruleset (yes, even with Vengeance rules). I don't think it's necessary to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but getting rid of certain overperforming sets such as Rush of Agony and Snow Treaders (while increasing the duration of snare removals because being perma-rooted isn't fun for anyone) will already go a long way. Ballgrouping was a thing long before these items existed, but they did make the entry level for being successful with a ballgroup much lower. Removing Azureblight was also a mistake, and addressing crosshealing and/or buff sets in a way that gives diminishing returns to larger groups would also help. This way you put a hard cap on the amount of statistical superiority a 12-man group can generate while also not completely destroying the benefits of playing as a well-organized group.

MorallyBipolar · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Stridig · April 9

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Yep. I've admitted all these things. My point is people just make stuff up to be salty about. It's not unfair to play the game differently than others. Using Cheat Engine is unfair. Shield/heal stacking is out of control, but not unfair. That's the point. Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups. I AM in favor of fixing broken things and bringing back the risk vs reward aspect of PvP. To all the rest of you, feel free to message me in game if you want to argue. That way the thread doesn't get closed down. @Stridig

Major_Mangle · April 9

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

No-proc had a pretty decent balance for ballgroups. Without Snow Treaders, pull sets and sets like VD/PB, and without buff sets, it was more skill-based and you could see that ballgroups with subpar players did not have much success.

In the end, ballgroups are just the meta of group play and they will be around in one form or another no matter the ruleset (yes, even with Vengeance rules). I don't think it's necessary to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but getting rid of certain overperforming sets such as Rush of Agony and Snow Treaders (while increasing the duration of snare removals because being perma-rooted isn't fun for anyone) will already go a long way. Ballgrouping was a thing long before these items existed, but they did make the entry level for being successful with a ballgroup much lower. Removing Azureblight was also a mistake, and addressing crosshealing and/or buff sets in a way that gives diminishing returns to larger groups would also help. This way you put a hard cap on the amount of statistical superiority a 12-man group can generate while also not completely destroying the benefits of playing as a well-organized group.

Couldn't have summarised it better myself.

The_Meathead · April 9

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

No-proc had a pretty decent balance for ballgroups. Without Snow Treaders, pull sets and sets like VD/PB, and without buff sets, it was more skill-based and you could see that ballgroups with subpar players did not have much success.

In the end, ballgroups are just the meta of group play and they will be around in one form or another no matter the ruleset (yes, even with Vengeance rules). I don't think it's necessary to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but getting rid of certain overperforming sets such as Rush of Agony and Snow Treaders (while increasing the duration of snare removals because being perma-rooted isn't fun for anyone) will already go a long way. Ballgrouping was a thing long before these items existed, but they did make the entry level for being successful with a ballgroup much lower. Removing Azureblight was also a mistake, and addressing crosshealing and/or buff sets in a way that gives diminishing returns to larger groups would also help. This way you put a hard cap on the amount of statistical superiority a 12-man group can generate while also not completely destroying the benefits of playing as a well-organized group.

Perfectly stated.

Ballgroups at current strength do ruin Cyrodiil imo, but it's not on their players to change that - it's on ZOS to limit the effect of stacked heals/shields and certain sets.

Players will and should always seek to be as powerful as they can in PvP, and Ballgroups are the pinnacle of that because they're a completely synergized maximum-sized group. It's the natural way of things that a well-run Ballgroup is gonna be the strongest thing out there (outside of a double Ballgroup, which happens too.) Where they're at right now is pretty obscene and absolutely needs to be dialed back for the sake of the game and possibly/probably performance, by ZOS.

As bumper rails and braindead as Vengeance was, I've had a very hard time returning to Cyrodiil after enjoying it without the presence of Ballgroups and especially the ridiculously stacked heals/shields. I hope that test campaign's results point first and foremost to something along those lines.

AngryPenguin · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Yep. I've admitted all these things. My point is people just make stuff up to be salty about. It's not unfair to play the game differently than others. Using Cheat Engine is unfair. Shield/heal stacking is out of control, but not unfair. That's the point. Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups. I AM in favor of fixing broken things and bringing back the risk vs reward aspect of PvP. To all the rest of you, feel free to message me in game if you want to argue. That way the thread doesn't get closed down. @Stridig

The main thing, in my view, is that we don't lose sight of the fact that what we need is to fix the Cyrodiil PvP we already have as opposed to forcing vengeance in some form on us as the only option.

I agree with a few other posters who have pointed out that, given ZOS level of support for the current PvP format that they are HIGHLY unlikely to support two different versions of PvP. They're going to pick the format that is easier for them, and it could mean the end of the Cyrodiil PvP that we've been playing since release.

If the PvE players get their wish, Cyrodiil will become primarily a PvE zone. As someone pointed out in another thread, we've always known there are more PvE players and most of them would rather see ESO become just like all previous versions of Elder Scrolls that don't have PvP options.

blktauna · April 9

Stridig wrote: »

Cyrodiil isn't for solo players unless they specifically build for it. Too many people just want to enter Cyrodiil and get rewarded without any effort. It's dumb.

Where do you get that idea?

What is this reward that 'people' want for no effort?

ZOS_GregoryV · April 9

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of posts, we would like to remind everyone that all posts are to be kept civil, constructive, and within the Community Rules.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Alchimiste1 · April 11

Stridig wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Yep. I've admitted all these things. My point is people just make stuff up to be salty about. It's not unfair to play the game differently than others. Using Cheat Engine is unfair. Shield/heal stacking is out of control, but not unfair. That's the point. Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups. I AM in favor of fixing broken things and bringing back the risk vs reward aspect of PvP. To all the rest of you, feel free to message me in game if you want to argue. That way the thread doesn't get closed down. @Stridig

"Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups."

yeah but I am.

xFocused · April 11

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Yep. I've admitted all these things. My point is people just make stuff up to be salty about. It's not unfair to play the game differently than others. Using Cheat Engine is unfair. Shield/heal stacking is out of control, but not unfair. That's the point. Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups. I AM in favor of fixing broken things and bringing back the risk vs reward aspect of PvP. To all the rest of you, feel free to message me in game if you want to argue. That way the thread doesn't get closed down. @Stridig

"Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups."

yeah but I am.

After watching a EP ball group run around the other night bagging everyone after they kill them as if they accomplished some impressive thing I’d say most of us would like to see them gutted.

The_Meathead · April 11

xFocused wrote: »

After watching a EP ball group run around the other night bagging everyone after they kill them as if they accomplished some impressive thing I’d say most of us would like to see them gutted.

A Ballgroup player teabagging someone has always struck me much like a touchdown celebration... right after the player scored a flag-football touchdown in their F150.

xFocused · April 11

The_Meathead wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

After watching a EP ball group run around the other night bagging everyone after they kill them as if they accomplished some impressive thing I’d say most of us would like to see them gutted.

A Ballgroup player teabagging someone has always struck me much like a touchdown celebration... right after the player scored a flag-football touchdown in their F150.

Yeah it was bad the other night; any and every solo player they killed got bagged, most of us just logged out.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 11

xFocused wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

After watching a EP ball group run around the other night bagging everyone after they kill them as if they accomplished some impressive thing I’d say most of us would like to see them gutted.

A Ballgroup player teabagging someone has always struck me much like a touchdown celebration... right after the player scored a flag-football touchdown in their F150.

Yeah it was bad the other night; any and every solo player they killed got bagged, most of us just logged out.

Sounds like that guild/group is not used to winning if they celebrate such small victories like that.

Kartalin · April 11

Stridig wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Yep. I've admitted all these things. My point is people just make stuff up to be salty about. It's not unfair to play the game differently than others. Using Cheat Engine is unfair. Shield/heal stacking is out of control, but not unfair. That's the point. Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups. I AM in favor of fixing broken things and bringing back the risk vs reward aspect of PvP. To all the rest of you, feel free to message me in game if you want to argue. That way the thread doesn't get closed down. @Stridig

I think what you're saying here, and I agree with it, is that ball groups are just optimizing based upon the tools that are available and it's the available tools that are the problem: RoA, heal stacking, and shield stacking primarily.

The fact is that these groups are not going to willingly nerf themselves just because something is overpowered, because when we face off against other groups we expect them to be doing the same thing.

Ultimately it comes down to players petitioning ZOS to address the issue, which is repeatedly happening all over these forums and rightly so. It's also important to know that it's people such as @Joy_Division and myself who are playing in these groups that are joining in sounding the alarm, so it's not just a matter of it being sour grapes.

Stridig · April 11

Kartalin wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Yep. I've admitted all these things. My point is people just make stuff up to be salty about. It's not unfair to play the game differently than others. Using Cheat Engine is unfair. Shield/heal stacking is out of control, but not unfair. That's the point. Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups. I AM in favor of fixing broken things and bringing back the risk vs reward aspect of PvP. To all the rest of you, feel free to message me in game if you want to argue. That way the thread doesn't get closed down. @Stridig

I think what you're saying here, and I agree with it, is that ball groups are just optimizing based upon the tools that are available and it's the available tools that are the problem: RoA, heal stacking, and shield stacking primarily.

The fact is that these groups are not going to willingly nerf themselves just because something is overpowered, because when we face off against other groups we expect them to be doing the same thing.

Ultimately it comes down to players petitioning ZOS to address the issue, which is repeatedly happening all over these forums and rightly so. It's also important to know that it's people such as @Joy_Division and myself who are playing in these groups that are joining in sounding the alarm, so it's not just a matter of it being sour grapes.

Yes. I agree with all of this and always have. I just have a real issue with people being accused of being exploiters, or that they are doing something unfair, or cheating in some way. Do I defend the ball group playstyle? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean things aren't broken. I see both of you in Cyrodiil all the time and it's evident that you know what you're talking about. I just feel the need to speak out when a certain part of our community is being labeled as pariah's simply for playing the game.

Stridig · April 11

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Guys..... there's no need to post whole pages of text trying to explain to me how the game works. I've been playing since early access. I have been playing in groups in Cyrodiil since day 1. I'm just trying to get a simple question answered. What gives ball groups an unfair advantage? I have yet to hear a good argument from all these veteran know it all's. Discord? Barrier? What?

Heal and shield stacking along with some broken sets like RoA and NB pulls in combination with VD give ball groups an outsized power. We've been saying this for years, so I'm not sure why you would ask the question in the first place.

Yep. I've admitted all these things. My point is people just make stuff up to be salty about. It's not unfair to play the game differently than others. Using Cheat Engine is unfair. Shield/heal stacking is out of control, but not unfair. That's the point. Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups. I AM in favor of fixing broken things and bringing back the risk vs reward aspect of PvP. To all the rest of you, feel free to message me in game if you want to argue. That way the thread doesn't get closed down. @Stridig

"Anyway, I'm not in favor of gutting Cyrodiil simply because people are tired of ball groups."

yeah but I am.

That's great! Many PvPers have different visions for what Cyrodiil should be. Hopefully it works out for everyone.

Iriidius · April 11

Stridig wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"? Are they using skills or gear that is only available to certain people? Are they using monster sets that are only available if you have a youtube chanel? Are they allowed to slot more CP on their bars than everyone else? Or is the root cause of the frustration just being blamed on them? Is the game actually pay to win with mythics and jewelry? What exactly is the unfair advantage? I hate fighting ball groups. I hate getting pulled halfway across the map by a gear set. But I don't think it's unfair to use skills and sets in Cyrodiil. To me it's just a bad argument to say ball groups ruin everything.

Stridig wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"?

None of the tools randoms have available can actually threaten an optimized ball group. All they can do is brute force outnumber and spam. Sure they have Negates and Meatbags but by definition they can't coordinate them, only hope to get lucky that they land together. It can take hours of zergers randomly spamming before they land a lucky bomb, and even then it probably just sends the ball to their camp outside, ready to do the same exact thing again.

So you're saying ball groups DO have skills or abilities that aren't available to everyone. Ok. So the problem isn't ball groups, it's RNG? Some people get certain tools and some don't? I'm lost here.

They practically have.

While everyone can wear the sets or cast the skills ballgroups are using, they will not give the same sum of stats for a solo player (where the effect is given only to him) than for a ballgroupler where the effect is given to all 12 players to the ballgroup.

If a solo player wears sanctuary set he gets 10% healing.
If a ballgroupler wears sanctuary set all ballgroup members get 10% healing so sanctuary gives 12 times 10% healing so in sum 12*10=120%.
Same with powerful assault(12*307=3684wpndmg)
and spc/olorhime and every other groupset.

Iriidius · April 11

CanAPanda wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Agreed.

Still waiting on word from ZOS about limiting heal and shield stacking in groups. Why hasn't ZOS tried this or at least commented about it?

To be fair they did implement this in the Vengeance campaign. No skill was able to affect more than 3 targets be it heals nor aoes. This was a brilliant step in the right direction imo.

An AOE burst heal healing 3 players for 80% of a single target burst heal still heals 240% of a single target heal altogether.
It still makes multitarget heals much stronger than single target heals.
But ballgroups felt like this wasnt enaugh because what they get in Grey Host is much stronger and still skipped Vengeance.

Kartalin · April 11

Iriidius wrote: »

But ballgroups felt like this wasnt enaugh because what they get in Grey Host is much stronger and still skipped Vengeance.

Our group was there multiple nights. Coordination was still valuable, syncing up ultimates, having designated healers, DKs chaining in opponents to pare down their numbers, etc.

To be fair the most fun we had was syncing up 4+ trebuchet shots at a defended breach and watching a group of defenders get instantly flattened

Stridig · April 11

Iriidius wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"? Are they using skills or gear that is only available to certain people? Are they using monster sets that are only available if you have a youtube chanel? Are they allowed to slot more CP on their bars than everyone else? Or is the root cause of the frustration just being blamed on them? Is the game actually pay to win with mythics and jewelry? What exactly is the unfair advantage? I hate fighting ball groups. I hate getting pulled halfway across the map by a gear set. But I don't think it's unfair to use skills and sets in Cyrodiil. To me it's just a bad argument to say ball groups ruin everything.

Stridig wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"?

None of the tools randoms have available can actually threaten an optimized ball group. All they can do is brute force outnumber and spam. Sure they have Negates and Meatbags but by definition they can't coordinate them, only hope to get lucky that they land together. It can take hours of zergers randomly spamming before they land a lucky bomb, and even then it probably just sends the ball to their camp outside, ready to do the same exact thing again.

So you're saying ball groups DO have skills or abilities that aren't available to everyone. Ok. So the problem isn't ball groups, it's RNG? Some people get certain tools and some don't? I'm lost here.

They practically have.

While everyone can wear the sets or cast the skills ballgroups are using, they will not give the same sum of stats for a solo player (where the effect is given only to him) than for a ballgroupler where the effect is given to all 12 players to the ballgroup.

If a solo player wears sanctuary set he gets 10% healing.
If a ballgroupler wears sanctuary set all ballgroup members get 10% healing so sanctuary gives 12 times 10% healing so in sum 12*10=120%.
Same with powerful assault(12*307=3684wpndmg)
and spc/olorhime and every other groupset.

You're not wrong. The point is you are encouraged to group up in Cyrodiil. And if you choose to be a solo player, then there are certain types of builds that compliment that playstyle. Why on earth would a solo player slot DD#4 skills and sets if they weren't in a group?

Iriidius · April 11

Stridig wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"? Are they using skills or gear that is only available to certain people? Are they using monster sets that are only available if you have a youtube chanel? Are they allowed to slot more CP on their bars than everyone else? Or is the root cause of the frustration just being blamed on them? Is the game actually pay to win with mythics and jewelry? What exactly is the unfair advantage? I hate fighting ball groups. I hate getting pulled halfway across the map by a gear set. But I don't think it's unfair to use skills and sets in Cyrodiil. To me it's just a bad argument to say ball groups ruin everything.

Stridig wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"?

None of the tools randoms have available can actually threaten an optimized ball group. All they can do is brute force outnumber and spam. Sure they have Negates and Meatbags but by definition they can't coordinate them, only hope to get lucky that they land together. It can take hours of zergers randomly spamming before they land a lucky bomb, and even then it probably just sends the ball to their camp outside, ready to do the same exact thing again.

So you're saying ball groups DO have skills or abilities that aren't available to everyone. Ok. So the problem isn't ball groups, it's RNG? Some people get certain tools and some don't? I'm lost here.

They practically have.

While everyone can wear the sets or cast the skills ballgroups are using, they will not give the same sum of stats for a solo player (where the effect is given only to him) than for a ballgroupler where the effect is given to all 12 players to the ballgroup.

If a solo player wears sanctuary set he gets 10% healing.
If a ballgroupler wears sanctuary set all ballgroup members get 10% healing so sanctuary gives 12 times 10% healing so in sum 12*10=120%.
Same with powerful assault(12*307=3684wpndmg)
and spc/olorhime and every other groupset.

You're not wrong. The point is you are encouraged to group up in Cyrodiil. And if you choose to be a solo player, then there are certain types of builds that compliment that playstyle. Why on earth would a solo player slot DD#4 skills and sets if they weren't in a group?

So you understand and admit yourself that a solo player slotting group sets and skill will not get the same effect as a grouped player or even a solo player in sole sets+skills?
That should answer your questions

Stridig wrote: »

What gives "ballgroups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"? Are they using skills or gear that is only available to certain people?

with yes.

In Vengeance despite „nothing encouraging group“ there where lfg groups most of the time, the whole faction was stacked and fighting equal sized faction stacks of other faction.

Sets+Skills used by ballgroups divide players in useful players giving buffs you dont have or can stack and useless players having redundant or no group buffs getting excluded and not encourage grouping with everyone but only in premades.