There are so few people willing to group up in Cyrodiil that ANY group is considered a ball group these days. People are so out of touch with what Cyrodiil is supposed to be that just last night in GH there was talk of mini ball groups. Yes, 3-4 players playing together are now being called mini ball groups. People not grouping up is what's ruining Cyrodiil. Solo players who slap on a gold set of shacklebreaker, then demand zos change Cyrodiil because they can't win fights is what's ruining Cyrodiil.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Yes, 3-4 players playing together are now being called mini ball groups. People not grouping up is what's ruining Cyrodiil. Solo players who slap on a gold set of shacklebreaker, then demand zos change Cyrodiil because they can't win fights is what's ruining Cyrodiil.

Smallscalers playing like ball groups is not new, just sweatier than the average tower runner group. But there's such an insane amount of power in the comp spreadsheet, that comp groups are effectively playing an entirely different game. One's perfectly minmaxed solo build is still orders of magnitude weaker than Ball Group Drone #9, to say nothing of the random casuals and beginners that comp groups are repeatedly stomping every day.

A ball group is like an NFL team, the randoms they're stomping are like a 3rd period sophomore gym class flag football team. Is anyone really surprised that flag football randoms are quitting rather than trying to beat the NFL team?

I'm aware of all these things. The game is in a sad state. But to say a certain play style ruins Cyrodiil is just laughable to me. I think buying a DLC in order to craft jewelry ruins the game. I think having a thousand different gear sets with no storage without eso+ ruins the game.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Yes, 3-4 players playing together are now being called mini ball groups. People not grouping up is what's ruining Cyrodiil. Solo players who slap on a gold set of shacklebreaker, then demand zos change Cyrodiil because they can't win fights is what's ruining Cyrodiil.

Smallscalers playing like ball groups is not new, just sweatier than the average tower runner group. But there's such an insane amount of power in the comp spreadsheet, that comp groups are effectively playing an entirely different game. One's perfectly minmaxed solo build is still orders of magnitude weaker than Ball Group Drone #9, to say nothing of the random casuals and beginners that comp groups are repeatedly stomping every day.

A ball group is like an NFL team, the randoms they're stomping are like a 3rd period sophomore gym class flag football team. Is anyone really surprised that flag football randoms are quitting rather than trying to beat the NFL team?

Yep this is really well said. I didn't really get into pvp until about this time last year after I got fed up with some aspects of PvE trial design choices. I mostly did Cryodiil, probably spent around 2k on transmutes and 30-40m on upgrade materials to make multiple sets to play around with. I saw a good amount of ball groups and I just always remember the feeling of nihilism when I saw any of them. Like "what's the point of even trying?"

Eventually after a few weeks I got invited to a ball group that ran on DC Blackreach. I joined them and, wow the requirements were more strict that any trifecta core I have been in. I've never had my race be a requirement or even talked about in PvE stuff. That really only matters when you get into score pushing. I was told the race, exactly how to a lot my attributes, all my enchants and traits, all gear must be gold, I had to level multiple skill lines that I normally don't have etc. Now remember this is just a Blackreach ball group, like who even takes BR seriously? Apparently these people. The leader did normal calls youd expect in ball groups etc but what got me is the not expectation but REQUIREMENT that we had to stay after the 3-4 hour run to go over logs for about TWO HOURS. What? Not even in Tri runs have I ever been required to stay to go over logs. I usually am the one looking at them on my own time anyway but this requirement was wild.

After all of that it really put into perspective how outmatched groups are who don't do that or even solo players. Honestly at this point make a campaign for ball groups, in main cryo just limit the amount of targets cross heals can hit, disallow the ball group sets like rush of agony vd etc. I know this will kill bombers too but bombers really should only be a response to ball groups anyways imo. Not giving players a fair chance to play in pvp will self cannibalize the player base over time. If you are a new to pvp player and go int then just get your *** pushed in by a ball group then get 1 shot by a bomber multiple times you likely won't come back.

CanAPanda wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Yes, 3-4 players playing together are now being called mini ball groups. People not grouping up is what's ruining Cyrodiil. Solo players who slap on a gold set of shacklebreaker, then demand zos change Cyrodiil because they can't win fights is what's ruining Cyrodiil.

Smallscalers playing like ball groups is not new, just sweatier than the average tower runner group. But there's such an insane amount of power in the comp spreadsheet, that comp groups are effectively playing an entirely different game. One's perfectly minmaxed solo build is still orders of magnitude weaker than Ball Group Drone #9, to say nothing of the random casuals and beginners that comp groups are repeatedly stomping every day.

A ball group is like an NFL team, the randoms they're stomping are like a 3rd period sophomore gym class flag football team. Is anyone really surprised that flag football randoms are quitting rather than trying to beat the NFL team?

Yep this is really well said. I didn't really get into pvp until about this time last year after I got fed up with some aspects of PvE trial design choices. I mostly did Cryodiil, probably spent around 2k on transmutes and 30-40m on upgrade materials to make multiple sets to play around with. I saw a good amount of ball groups and I just always remember the feeling of nihilism when I saw any of them. Like "what's the point of even trying?"

Eventually after a few weeks I got invited to a ball group that ran on DC Blackreach. I joined them and, wow the requirements were more strict that any trifecta core I have been in. I've never had my race be a requirement or even talked about in PvE stuff. That really only matters when you get into score pushing. I was told the race, exactly how to a lot my attributes, all my enchants and traits, all gear must be gold, I had to level multiple skill lines that I normally don't have etc. Now remember this is just a Blackreach ball group, like who even takes BR seriously? Apparently these people. The leader did normal calls youd expect in ball groups etc but what got me is the not expectation but REQUIREMENT that we had to stay after the 3-4 hour run to go over logs for about TWO HOURS. What? Not even in Tri runs have I ever been required to stay to go over logs. I usually am the one looking at them on my own time anyway but this requirement was wild.

After all of that it really put into perspective how outmatched groups are who don't do that or even solo players. Honestly at this point make a campaign for ball groups, in main cryo just limit the amount of targets cross heals can hit, disallow the ball group sets like rush of agony vd etc. I know this will kill bombers too but bombers really should only be a response to ball groups anyways imo. Not giving players a fair chance to play in pvp will self cannibalize the player base over time. If you are a new to pvp player and go int then just get your *** pushed in by a ball group then get 1 shot by a bomber multiple times you likely won't come back.

this is 100% true for the top few guilds on EU at least.
This groups enjoy optimizing and tryharding the same way as score pushing groups do.

What wonders me are the following 2 questions:
- why do ppl complain that they get outmatched by this kind of groups when they are in a unorganized zerg ?
- isn't it the purpose of a mmorpg to play together with friends and form groups that are way stronger then the same amount of players ungrouped (not every group has to be a tryhard group as described)

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"? Are they using skills or gear that is only available to certain people? Are they using monster sets that are only available if you have a youtube chanel? Are they allowed to slot more CP on their bars than everyone else? Or is the root cause of the frustration just being blamed on them? Is the game actually pay to win with mythics and jewelry? What exactly is the unfair advantage? I hate fighting ball groups. I hate getting pulled halfway across the map by a gear set. But I don't think it's unfair to use skills and sets in Cyrodiil. To me it's just a bad argument to say ball groups ruin everything.

Einstein_ wrote: »

CanAPanda wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Yes, 3-4 players playing together are now being called mini ball groups. People not grouping up is what's ruining Cyrodiil. Solo players who slap on a gold set of shacklebreaker, then demand zos change Cyrodiil because they can't win fights is what's ruining Cyrodiil.

Smallscalers playing like ball groups is not new, just sweatier than the average tower runner group. But there's such an insane amount of power in the comp spreadsheet, that comp groups are effectively playing an entirely different game. One's perfectly minmaxed solo build is still orders of magnitude weaker than Ball Group Drone #9, to say nothing of the random casuals and beginners that comp groups are repeatedly stomping every day.

A ball group is like an NFL team, the randoms they're stomping are like a 3rd period sophomore gym class flag football team. Is anyone really surprised that flag football randoms are quitting rather than trying to beat the NFL team?

Yep this is really well said. I didn't really get into pvp until about this time last year after I got fed up with some aspects of PvE trial design choices. I mostly did Cryodiil, probably spent around 2k on transmutes and 30-40m on upgrade materials to make multiple sets to play around with. I saw a good amount of ball groups and I just always remember the feeling of nihilism when I saw any of them. Like "what's the point of even trying?"

Eventually after a few weeks I got invited to a ball group that ran on DC Blackreach. I joined them and, wow the requirements were more strict that any trifecta core I have been in. I've never had my race be a requirement or even talked about in PvE stuff. That really only matters when you get into score pushing. I was told the race, exactly how to a lot my attributes, all my enchants and traits, all gear must be gold, I had to level multiple skill lines that I normally don't have etc. Now remember this is just a Blackreach ball group, like who even takes BR seriously? Apparently these people. The leader did normal calls youd expect in ball groups etc but what got me is the not expectation but REQUIREMENT that we had to stay after the 3-4 hour run to go over logs for about TWO HOURS. What? Not even in Tri runs have I ever been required to stay to go over logs. I usually am the one looking at them on my own time anyway but this requirement was wild.

After all of that it really put into perspective how outmatched groups are who don't do that or even solo players. Honestly at this point make a campaign for ball groups, in main cryo just limit the amount of targets cross heals can hit, disallow the ball group sets like rush of agony vd etc. I know this will kill bombers too but bombers really should only be a response to ball groups anyways imo. Not giving players a fair chance to play in pvp will self cannibalize the player base over time. If you are a new to pvp player and go int then just get your *** pushed in by a ball group then get 1 shot by a bomber multiple times you likely won't come back.

this is 100% true for the top few guilds on EU at least.
This groups enjoy optimizing and tryharding the same way as score pushing groups do.

What wonders me are the following 2 questions:
- why do ppl complain that they get outmatched by this kind of groups when they are in a unorganized zerg ?
- isn't it the purpose of a mmorpg to play together with friends and form groups that are way stronger then the same amount of players ungrouped (not every group has to be a tryhard group as described)

I actually considered making a ball group with a friend of mine who plays WAY more Cyrodiil than I do (Alexjrvs) but the stipulation was that the ball group was purely meant to counter other ball groups and all sets/classes and skills would be chosen to do such. We would never attack anything other than ball groups, not zergs not solos, not pvxers tower looping. In the end its a cool idea but its just not worth the effort for this game tbh.

Stridig wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite. What gives "ball groups" an unfair advantage over non "ball groups"?

None of the tools randoms have available can actually threaten an optimized ball group. All they can do is brute force outnumber and spam. Sure they have Negates and Meatbags but by definition they can't coordinate them, only hope to get lucky that they land together. It can take hours of zergers randomly spamming before they land a lucky bomb, and even then it probably just sends the ball to their camp outside, ready to do the same exact thing again.

Stridig wrote: »

So you're saying ball groups DO have skills or abilities that aren't available to everyone

Sorry I'll back up. There's an insane amount of power in the comp spreadsheet. It's so far beyond anything available to randoms that it's like an NFL team vs 3rd period gym class. And they haven't even pressed a button yet. It puts all the power into what's essentially a logistical problem that exists entirely outside the game itself. Very few players have the access or motivation to engage with the outside-game logistics necessary to play in an optimized PvP raid.

I'm not saying ball groups don't outperform 90% of the Cyrodiil player base. But I do argue that they ARE in fact using the same skills, sets, buffs, debuffs, and mythics available to everyone else. Perhaps, and this may be hard for people, but perhaps Cyrodiil isn't designed for randoms.

Stridig wrote: »

I'm not saying ball groups don't outperform 90% of the Cyrodiil player base. But I do argue that they ARE in fact using the same skills, sets, buffs, debuffs, and mythics available to everyone else. Perhaps, and this may be hard for people, but perhaps Cyrodiil isn't designed for randoms.

He means the avg zergling cant optimize his group....which i guess its true, ...its part of being in a zerg.

lets play a mind game, imagine the following scenario:
- 12 players where each of them is a more or less good 1vXer himself.
- They have a optimized setup with all buffs through sets/skills/scribing.
- They play together since 3+ years in that group 3x a week.
- They really tryhard and take their time to analyze and talk after their raids.

They basically know their environment better then any score pushing trial group, because no trial group plays the same trial for 3 years strait...

What would you consider a fair amount of unorganized zerg that can bring them down ?


edit: in my opinion a group of organized players should be stronger then the sum of each individual.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

perhaps Cyrodiil isn't designed for randoms

And perhaps why it died. Vengeance is designed with regard to play with randoms.

I think people got spoiled with vengeance. It was fun. The AP was intoxicating. But after a couple weeks Cyrodiil would become the PvE zone these randoms want so badly. It completely removes the whole play how you want campaign from the game. I was a temporary reprieve from the unbalanced mess we have today. But I don't think it would be popular in the long term.

A true ball group is comped imo. Defined sets and roles.

The situation now is that with stacking cross heals and group shields,plus RoA, VD, Northern storm, mass hysteria: a 4 man comped ball facing random pugs can be virtually unkillable and yet still deal 4v1 big damage to farm soloes.

This is especially obvious later at night (I play PST) when factions are 2 bars.

I noticed none of these balls dared play in Vengeance when all the crutch sets were gone, but they reappeared the minute their beloved RoA was back.

Yes, it is the “same sets and skills” but they are exponentially stronger in a comped group setting— way,way too strong, and have ruined cyrodil

darvaria wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

There are so few people willing to group up in Cyrodiil that ANY group is considered a ball group these days. People are so out of touch with what Cyrodiil is supposed to be that just last night in GH there was talk of mini ball groups. Yes, 3-4 players playing together are now being called mini ball groups. People not grouping up is what's ruining Cyrodiil. Solo players who slap on a gold set of shacklebreaker, then demand zos change Cyrodiil because they can't win fights is what's ruining Cyrodiil.

Yeah not like our old days when we ALWAYS joined up. TBH, I don't join up much because I don't want to get VD'd or have to follow the group on some out of the way venture. I spend most of my time just defending and recapping resources.

I saw a lot of random grouping in Vengeance. I think an automatic LFG should be implemented. When group 1 fills, let 2nd, 3rd, etc groups auto form. Random leader or players could ask for lead.

I'm not going much to Cyro since Vengeance. IF I do go, I make sure to just avoid balls. The key in ball groups is to remain where they can not pull you, even it limits your contribution. I play strictly on the walls and when they break through IFD, I just FTSIO and am done for the evening. Or pop right back in ... not much of a queue these days.

Yeah Darv. Groups were poppin back in the day. We ran barriers to push through a breach, DKs would pop magma to help, sorcs would negate and DPS would spin to win. People refuse to do it these days. Mist folks I see just want to solo whole factions the get mad when a CP 720 wrecks them. We need to bring group play back.

Stridig wrote: »

I'm not saying ball groups don't outperform 90% of the Cyrodiil player base. But I do argue that they ARE in fact using the same skills, sets, buffs, debuffs, and mythics available to everyone else. Perhaps, and this may be hard for people, but perhaps Cyrodiil isn't designed for randoms.

Just because the gear/skill is the same, doesn't mean the effect/significance of a ball group using them is the same as a PuG.

Rush of Agony in the hands of a PuG is just an annoying pull. In the hands of a ball group, they can exploit the broken, rule-breaking component of the set by CCing the targets again and then have their 11 buddies insta-kill them with DBs, Shalks, Whirling Blades etc.

Evasion as a buff by itself is merely annoying. Enough for me to basically quit even trying to play a jabbing Templar because it's so fun to play a class whose spammable gets reduced by 20-30% damage. But, fine, I'll just roll a sorc like everyone else. With a ball group and the ridiculous ease in which the minor evasion buff covers an entire group by Arcanist support, they run around with free 30% damage resistance against the only damage type that can harm them.

The scribing AoE shields are basically useless in the hand of a PuG. They are absolutely busted with the ease ball groups can spam these and absorb so much damage, they don;t even really need the 12 hots ticking on them (something else PuGs are not capable of doing).

The Rapid Maneuver skill is pointless on a PuG. But with the press of a button, now the entire ball group has major+minor expedition and snare/root removal. Sure, someone could just slot Race Against Time and achieve a weaker version, but the a ball group player need not even slot the skill and gets 100% uptime on a skill that makes the entire group faster than just about everyone in the game with no real counters to slow them down, let alone stop them.

These are all examples of skills and gear that are meh in isolation but absolutely broken in the hands of a ball group. I get it that organized groups are supposed to support each other and be more than the sum of their parts. But ESO goes way way too far and provides them with too much easily accessible power, for which PuGs have nothing to counter them with.

We all so how much they "out-performed" everyone else during Vengeance. They are a product of bad and broken mechanics, many of which are only accessible to them because they only work with fellow group members. I've run in an organized group since 2014 and this patently obvious to any objective observer.