Do you think some people just don't know how to properly play their class?

squeeze · May 2014

@Andy22‌
You forgot the number one thing players in groups do not know: that you can block for 50% pain reduction and blocking does not prevent use of instant spells.

Also, for tanks: that you can interrupt casts of elites and sometimes bosses and cc-break most CC all with the same key, which should be rebound far far from the horrible LMB+RMB two-button combo for speed.

Talmet · May 2014

FrauPerchta wrote: »

Yes. It's a major problem in ESO

Lol, yeah...because in other MMOs everyone is awesome & there aren't any scrub players.

OP: Yes, there are people who don't know how to play. There will always be people who don't know how to play. There have always been people who don't know how to play.

This is not a new thing, it has always existed since the creation of the first game of "throw the small rock at the large rock" played by cavemen.

Bargi · May 2014

I don't. Why? Because I don't care as long as I'm enjoying what I do, and as long as my guildies doesn't mind too much - and since many of them have played mmo's with me for 8 years and still take me into groups I can't be too bad at what I do. But no - I don't "know" how to by über.
-
- The follow up questions to "Do you think some people just don't know how to properly play their classes?" Should be " - and does it really matter that much?"

Armoril · May 2014

Is there any "proper way" to play any class, other than not dying in combat?

I mean, if we had been talking about doing your roles in dungeons, then yeah, you have certain obligations there. But OP did not mention this. It was really more or less "get good noobs"

firstdecan · May 2014

Honestly, I think this is an unfair discussion.

The intention the developers espoused during Beta and in their marketing is that there isn't a particular way to play each class, that with a little creativity you can turn ANY class into any of the traditional roles (Tank \ Healer \ DPS). What's really lacking is a good and accessible discussion of the "synergies" between the different skills \ skill lines, and how the passives can supplement those synergies.

One of the best posts I saw was from @attorneyatlawl in a thread where someone was complaining about how overpowered a particular class was because he managed to solo a powerful dungeon boss. @Attorneyatlawl‌ responded with great insight into how he managed to defeat that boss, then proceeded to explain in detail how it could be done with any class. Phenomenal post, great insight, and a cogent and well thought out explanation of the game mechanics and synergies he took advantage of.

The people (including me) who are having difficulty right now are not having difficulty with "their class," they're having difficulty with the complex game mechanics and the balance of those mechanics. I just hit VR5, and will probably respect my character very soon. I have skill points invested in skills I do not use (at all) because I thought they would be cool, or because I thought synergies might exist that don't. The experimentation is all part of the game, but it's frustrating when I'm experimenting with a combination that is not a winner, get killed in PvE, and then have to pay through the nose for repairs. Experimenting in PvP is barely an option, it takes too long to get to a battle, and then if you're not sure of what you're doing the only thing you'll see is a sea of enemy tags running over your dead body.

I like the idea of the openness that exists in creating your character, but it comes at a price: complexity. That complexity is hard to sort out when there isn't good information about the components of that system (character skills and game mechanics) available for people to consider. And in the absence of good information, all that people are left with is misinformation and conjecture.

I know TL;DR. I miss the days of real role playing games like AD&D. The mechanics were complex, but spelled out and accessible. That's what helps people play their builds, when they know what they're building.

MordenOtomo · May 2014

I can with all honesty and complete humbleness state that I am awesome, much like the OP. Everyone I've ever played with, instantly recognizes my greatness. From my spectacular good looks to my perfect game play I can both humbly and honestly confirm that anybody that is not me is probably a scrub, and jealous, and smelly, and it's totally their fault if anything bad happens because I'm great. Sometimes I just roll a level 1 character without armor or weapons, then go take on Veteran level content just so I can feel slightly challenged...it didn't work, so I started playing with just my nose, and I'm still awesome

Wow, thanks for putting this in the player helping players forum, I think I really helped some people realize I'm maybe the best player ever. I'm sure this post will be stickied now that I've posted here. It will now have to be named "Morden's Humble Guide to Why You Suck and How You Should Realize You'll never be a 1000th of the Man He Is".

Abigail · May 2014

Andy22 wrote: »

METALPUNKS wrote: »

That said do you ever feel that people just don't know how to play their class....

Thats exactly the problem, since there is no "static" class path they push u on and give u many free choices its easy to create something "new", but also as easy to miss or pick some "crappy/buggy" skill-line.

So the question is rather:
"Why do so many players struggle to build something that fits the stereotypical role others expect/need in groups/dungeons aka dps/heal/tank."

Here are some of the problems i noticed to get a "good" build per role:

DPS:
1) Huge gap between players using the "buggy" animation canceling or "skill weaving" thinggy, compared to others. Its so counterintuitive to use that u can't figure this out yourself normally.

2) If u are simply unlucky and picked a "under-performing" skill-line u will struggle deal "high" DPS. U need time/skill investment to test different combos, since there are huge differences.

3) U can simply miss the current "best" dps skill's. So if u never tested "Impulse spam" or "deadly bash" u don't know that this is "good", compared to other alternatives.

4) U don't know that there are "super" potions that are way better than drop potions and allow u to build a good mixed sta/magicka based build.

Heal:
1) U don't know that heals scale with your weapon DPS.
2) U don't know that only the resto staff regen and templar heals can actually crit atm and build for crit.
3) U don't know that damage shields receive none mitigated damage, means most of them are bad if compared to a normal heal. Basically multiply any damage shield value with 0.6 or 0.7 and compare it to a heal.
4) U don't know that a heavy resto staff attack will restore 10% magicka at the end.

Tank:
1) U are a vampire and believe that fire resist somehow "negates" the 50% extra fire damage. U will always take 50% more fire damage than a similar none vampire tank, no matter what items u use.
2) U are confused about what soft/hardcap actually means.
3) U picked NB/Templar as tank and struggle on trash-groups. (Talons FTW)
4) U "missmanage" stamina for blocking/taunting.

A) High respec cost at later levels also makes "experimenting" painfully. I did reset 3 times, just to test 4 different "morphs", since the tooltip was bad/misleading. If i could just respect single points, i would have found my current build much faster, easier.

There are so many "strange" and unbalanced factors at work to build/understand your role, that screwing up partly has a high chance to occur.
So either u are lucky in your class/role pick (DK tank) or need quite some investment to understand how things work and check forums, watch videos or install addons and experiment yourself.

Quite possibly a case of lazy minds or insufficient learning ... much like those who won't use a spellchecker when posting or being too lazy to spell out a simple three-letter word.

See, it's really easy to judge others, isn't it?

Singular · May 2014

AlMcFly wrote: »

Forget class...lots of people just don't know how to play the game...period. I had a tough time in several parts of the game. No matter what though I found a way to beat everything. V4+ is downright unforgiving to a solo player. But when I hear players under level 40 or 50 just livid and absolutely ready to leave the game because it is too difficult, it makes me facepalm.

When somebody in a forum says "L2P", 99% of the time I think they are trolls and completely moronic for saying it. However honestly, some people really really do just need to...L2P...

They can't l2p unless you give them some tips.

Tavore1138 · May 2014

I think the situation is that due to the draw of the TES name to players, like myself, who are now possibly playing a first MMO is that you have two very diverse sets of players here who don't really get each other.

You have the MMO people who are used to these build concepts & terms (tanks, ccs, dps and so on). They are used to respawning 'mobs' & the mechanics to deal with them. They are used to what types of build will do best against other humans. They are familiar with grouping and so on.

And I think they get very frustrated with us new MMOers not 'getting it'.

On the other side you have TES vets who've been, to a point, expecting Skyrim online with some PvP. In the PvE world we are used to I can use my brain to win instead of my build, I can be out of site & range arrowing a boss with my stealth until I need to come in and finish it off not trapped in a small room with it where the first attack makes me fully reachable. Crafting we get but understanding that backpedalling to stay at bow range for one fight is going to walk you into zone for another mob to jump on you from behind is a learning curve. We expect to be able to do a bit of whatever looks interesting and create a survivable build, something that is re-enforced by levels 1-50 & even VR1 stuff... and then somewhere between VR2-5 we realise that we don't have the experience of this sort of game.

And I think we get very frustrated that others don't get that too.

So kudos to those who take the time to explain stuff to us long time gamers but new MMOers... and boo to ZOS for not fixing broken skills and perhaps making the difficulty curve a little smoother...

(But NB skills are still way broken for VR)

Dalexx · May 2014

MordenOtomo wrote: »

Wow, thanks for putting this in the player helping players forum, I think I really helped some people realize I'm maybe the best player ever. I'm sure this post will be stickied now that I've posted here. It will now have to be named "Morden's Humble Guide to Why You Suck and How You Should Realize You'll never be a 1000th of the Man He Is".

I can't speak for the others, but reading your post made me feel 100 times better about myself. Now that I know I'm just a scrub, I no longer have to wonder why I'm terrible. I can now just play the game and be happy. Thanks Morden, I voted to have this post stickied, I believe many others will enjoy your keen insight and be liberated by your great words!

To the OP, since I'm a scrub, I will say that I think it's a little too early to be calling out people who "need to learn to play". The game isn't even 2 months old and they are still working out bugs and tweaking balancing. I also agree with others, One can't tell people "ESO is great because you can play anyway you want", but OBTW, there is only 1 or 2 correct ways to play a class. I never really bought in to the whole notion that I could play anyway I wanted. I knew it would be just a matter of time, before it became, this way or it's the wrong way.

Zershar_Vemod · May 2014

Does a bear *** in the woods?

So far players not knowing their classes / focused role(s) has caused way too many issues...

Allyah · May 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

[...]
I wouldn't consider anybody in this game a month in a "bad" player, they just need more time a learn.

A bad player refuses to learn and adapt.

By that logic and if the forums are any indication of some people's refusal to adapt, there are plenty of people that are bad players.

METALPUNKS · May 2014

I think some are misunderstanding what im trying to say here. I was directing my Original Post towards the people that come on here and blame the game for them dying all the time. The ones that say their class is totally broken and need some love, lots of loving, even sideways loving. That's why I opened up my thread with I understand some thing are broken and need some love.

I'm all for helping anyone out that I could to make them play better. I'm also for getting help which I need for sure. Anyway my point of all this was to see what the community thought about those players who die and die and keep dying and then say the game is broke and they'll be back when it fixed. Like most of you said it takes time but I certainly do not think the game is so broken it effects people dying all the time.

RazzPitazz · May 2014

I have had my run ins wih the game actually causing me to die (glitched unable to do anything until combat is over) but these moments are rare. I dont think it has anything to do with ppl not knowing how to do anything accept be patient. Anyone who ever played an MMO or TES game knows the sheer amount of fixes that will be necessary. What irks me peraonally are the ones who drop the " I have been complaining about this since beta but obviously ZoS doesnt agree." This gets me because I do not understand how these people figure its unimportant to ZoS because its a lower priority. Sorry that part was a tangent. Seeing developers hotfix and patch games over the years, they are going to fix the architecture first before hardcore repairing classes and it's not going to take as long as everyone thinks.

Sunrock · May 2014

METALPUNKS wrote: »

First off I get there are some broken mechanics in the game, broken skills or skills that need some changes. That said do you ever feel that people just don't know how to play their class, especially after seeing threads they make in his their class is broken and they keep dying.

I do fine with my NB build and I see many streamers in very high content do fine in all classes. I can easily take on mobs at least 2 or 3 levels ahead of me. I also never stick with the same set of skills all the time, I always change it up.

How do you feel about this. Do think the game is incredibly hard? Or do you feel it's almost too easy like me? I can't remember the last time something actually killed me.

For me this really shows in pvp. I really feel like many players are just slamming buttons instead using their tools to their advantage.

You can do really good as a NB if you don't use more then 1 or 2 NB skills. But when you talk about a class in this game you are only referring to the three skill lines that is specific to that class. So if you are a NB and do really good with using a fire staff and have 3-4 fire staff abilities slotted you are not really playing as a NB.

And in the NB case allot of our skills tend to bug out and there for makes it allot harder to play. I can count how many times I died because I got the "combat lock" bug where I have to tab of the game and then back in to be able to use any abilities including light and heavy attacks. Not to mention other bugs I don't experience with any other class.

But on paper NB are not that bad If everything worked as intended and there was no bugs in this game.

Cogo · May 2014

I do believe that people don't know how to play the game properly, not just their Class/build.

The main problem is that leveling goes to fast. I am not sure if thats Zenimax fault, or the effect of a lot of addons that helps you "fast".

We don't need to be like Everquest where it took up to 6 months to get to the highest level, but if you level to 50 in a week, you simply missed WAY to much of the game, not only battle but I am gonna keep to that since thats the topic.

How much can you learn in a week about different skills, situtations, grouping for a common goal, may it be pvp or pve. Not even to talk about instances.

Simple things like being aware in combat and what you can do at specific points just cant be learned in a week in a new type of MMO.

When to use synergy, who to attack, what to click on, what not to click on.
Learning to work as a unit, not just as a solo damage machine in a group.

I wonder, how many who is level 50 now, didnt get there quite fast and ALL have good addons that helped them there. (Just because I dont use addons doesnt mean I say others cant.

BUT, way to many people do not know enough of the game mechancs, core, teamwork. Even events or features they never heard of and would like if they just know.

ESO is built to start at level 1. Every level matters and teaches you new things, you pick new skills. And juuuust when you are around lvl 20 and think you got the hang of it, you go with an instance group that wipes over and over. And you end up having to rethink your build. Thats part of the game! And next instance, your first build might been better. Again, its up to YOU what you choose.

Of course, ONE of the goals in the game is to be high level to be able to do the up and coming raids! (yum).

But the MAIN core feature in ESO is that its not the end that matters, but your journey there.

SluggoV2 · May 2014

OP, You hit on a good point here.

I think it's a combination of people that not only don't know how to play there class but also don't understand their role or how to build for said roll. I can say this because I am one of those people. I have played TES since Morrowind, but have never really played an MMO until ESO. In the past my choices (wrong or right) didn't affect my gameplay as much in the single player instances of TES, but with ESO those choices are much more critical and are also much easier to get wrong.

I have found it very difficult to get all the info I need to make informed decisions about my build. I also have limited knowledge on how to select my build according to what role I have decided on. Before the other day, I never knew that as a tank I should really be running a taunt skill to keep the mob's focus on me.

Since in the prior TES series I really enjoyed playing a stealth/ranged style, I rolled NB. I have not had all that much success with this class thus far, so I was getting really frustrated. After much searching on the net, I learned that not only was picking the wrong skill combinations, I was not playing my class in a way that best complimented it. Luckily I stumbled upon some very informative videos on YouTube that have really help me to better understand the game...at least the PVE side of things. PVP probably takes even more effort to get right.

jesterstear · May 2014

I'm only level 39, playing as a Templar tank with offheals. The main issue I've encountered so far is people not getting the most basic things of all right.

1) DPS starting pulls. I can kind of live with this but at least make sure the group is ready, no-one is afk, reading their map or rummaging through their inventory.

ESPECIALLY when it comes to boss fights. Had a couple comedy wipes from a melee DPS starting the boss while our healer had said "Bio" in chat a minute ago and hadn't moved or typed anything since.

2) People running ahead in dungeons, ahead of the main group (who stopped to eat food, swapping skill bars etc after last boss fight) , agroing several groups of trash, then training them back into the group for a wipe.

I guess both of these are examples of "Leeroy Jenkins" behaviour, but I never saw anyone got kicked for it, maybe because they were competent enough in the actual boss fight itself. Still, whilst such a player at least allows you to complete the instance as opposed to an underdeveloped player or character, in some ways its even more inexcusable, since they should know better. Forcing your team-mates to die for no reason, waste potions and ultimates , and go into boss fights with damaged armour is inconsiderate in the extreme.