If anything of vengeance makes it to live it will fundamentally make it unfun to play pvp

MincMincMinc · January 27

sarahthes wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Feedback as simple as a thumbs up or thumbs down is just as legitimate as pages long explanations. They may not help the devs tailor their responses as accurately as needed, but a simple like or don't like is still legitimate feedback as a stand alone comment. Besides that, ZOS pretty much does whatever they've decided their going to do regardless of feedback. That's why their investment in this template version of Cyrodiil is so concerning for so many of us primarily PvP players.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have. As many other posters have pointed out, ZOS hasn't even tried limiting shield stacking and heal stacking in groups under Battle Spirit. We've been asking for this for years. ZOS appears to be on the road to scrapping the PvP that put ESO on the map in the first place, and that is very sad.

Feedback that is purposefully misconstrued or biased for the purpose of being spiteful, I cannot subscribe to being helpful.
"I do not like template pvp, it is limiting" This is fine and good feedback
"I can't believe zos is doing this to the game, how could they remove builds? Im going to quit if they continue with this" yeah these comments are not only purposefully incorrect, but also not helpful in anyway other than baiting random hate commenters to pop up.

The only investment theyve made is the instance tools that allow them to have a different skill book between pve and pvp.....Which is extremely helpful and healthy for the game. Everyone for years has been asking for pve and pvp to be balanced seperately. Practically since the dots and hots stacking change almost a decade ago.

The skills you see probably took them a week of work for one person. They are almost all copy and renamed versions of the current skills with parts disabled. It probably took them just as long to write the tooltips as it was to make the skills function.

Not to mention they stated multiple times that template pvp was never intended as the final product.....again not sure why people thought this would be the case. From nearly every aspect it makes no sense.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

Options like what, remove cyrodil and only have bgs and IC? Can you be more specific what options you think exist? Like i pointed out, they barely invested in anything yet. Why do you think they did a week of work to setup this test?

ZOS has never tried limiting heal and shield stacking for groups under Battle Spirit. They've never tried removing the most calculation intensive sets from Cyrodiil, like the sets with stacking buffs. They've never tried reverting the upgrading/downgrading keeps, bridges and gates.

There are a lot of things that are valid suggestions ZOS has never tried to keep the existing Cyrodiil game mode working properly. ....but as someone who spends a lot of time on this forum you already knew this was the answer to your question. Now please answer mine.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

They cant change individual effects through battlespirit. They stated it wont allow that. Even if they could its silly from a performance standpoint to even have the extra layer of battlespirit and different event calls that now have to check every tick of an ability or dot......which is why in vengeance this is removed.

They did try to limit proc sets and cross healing but the tests did not show enough improvements to implement across the game. The no proc campaign was loved by alot of people, but the general population will always flock to the most high end game campaign possible.

The bridge/gate and vol change was a disaster. The hammer alone proves that grouping players and stacking effects is an issue. Numerically they probably havent been able to prove that though.

Why is zos doing this, it all depend on money and who allocates it. Like I already said its the director level people who demand clear answers to be able to show even higher levels that their team requires more funding to carry through with changes of the scale needed. Its typical silicone valley corporate structure when it comes to changes like this.

No, they never tried limiting heal stacking and shield stacking IN GROUPS, as what was suggested.

Sorry my first point there should have included hot/dot stacking with "effects" They stated its just not possible through battlespirit easily or performative in any way. It is ingrained in other systems. The only way they can do it is quite literally making a duplicate skill system and make the new skills not stack......which is the whole point of vengeance having its own PVP skill system.

I am convinced that battle spirit is part of the problem with calculations bogging down the server in PvP and that is why they shy away from adding anything new to it.

Agreed, and it is a blanket fix for the pve/pvp split that should have happened a long time ago. There is no way the extra layer is helping, nice to see it gone in vengeance.

I also question passives and buffs or systems that interact with keep tick areas. You gotta think of keeps as giant buffs/effect circles across the entire map. Its just another layer of potential issues.

ZOS_GregoryV · January 27

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of posts, we would like to remind everyone that all comments stay on the topic of discussion.

Regards,
-Greg-

blktauna · January 28

LPapirius wrote: »

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

What leads you to believe they are creating a new mode?
They are doing as you suggest working with what they have by stripping back to minimum to get a baseline.

Aetherderius · January 28

"If anything of vengeance makes it to live it will fundamentally make it unfun to play pvp"

playing pvp was ever fun?

sans-culottes · January 28

blktauna wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

What leads you to believe they are creating a new mode?
They are doing as you suggest working with what they have by stripping back to minimum to get a baseline.

Right? People keep saying this. It’s clear they’ve not read the patch notes, etc. The devs have explained, and quite clearly, that this is temporary.

xylena_lazarow · January 28

sans-culottes wrote: »

Right? People keep saying this. It’s clear they’ve not read the patch notes, etc. The devs have explained, and quite clearly, that this is temporary.

It's entirely possible that the devs are reassuring us in part because so many players already gave feedback that they're not interested in the concept of Diet Cyrodiil. If that's true, then the system works? Nonetheless, they're still asking us to test something unfun for free, so they should at least offer some serious in-game rewards, like faction tokens.

MincMincMinc · January 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Right? People keep saying this. It’s clear they’ve not read the patch notes, etc. The devs have explained, and quite clearly, that this is temporary.

It's entirely possible that the devs are reassuring us in part because so many players already gave feedback that they're not interested in the concept of Diet Cyrodiil. If that's true, then the system works? Nonetheless, they're still asking us to test something unfun for free, so they should at least offer some serious in-game rewards, like faction tokens.

Its not supposed to be the most fun youve ever had in a game. Its a 1 week test which could determine whether we still have cyrodil or not.

Monetery wise template pvp would never be released. Zos's main income is from eso+ dungeon releases and chapters. Why would a pvp player ever buy those if nothing translates into pvp? Just take 5 mins to think it through, it makes no sense for them to do what you are having a nightmare over.

xylena_lazarow · January 28

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Its not supposed to be the most fun youve ever had in a game.

Right, surely the AAA game studio can at least give us some Hakeijos or something for our literal work.

MincMincMinc · January 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Its not supposed to be the most fun youve ever had in a game.

Right, surely the AAA game studio can at least give us some Hakeijos or something for our literal work.

Agreed, so instead of complaining about the test that will happen no matter what and be fine, we should be asking about the rewards to be changed. They will be more likely to listen to positive suggestions than someone screaming into a blackhole.

- Telvar
- Respec tokens
- alliance tokens
- eso+ month
- unique mount
- alchemy mats
- crown crates
- gold mats
- Title

sans-culottes · January 28

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Its not supposed to be the most fun youve ever had in a game.

Right, surely the AAA game studio can at least give us some Hakeijos or something for our literal work.

Agreed, so instead of complaining about the test that will happen no matter what and be fine, we should be asking about the rewards to be changed. They will be more likely to listen to positive suggestions than someone screaming into a blackhole.

- Telvar
- Respec tokens
- alliance tokens
- eso+ month
- unique mount
- alchemy mats
- crown crates
- gold mats
- Title

So you should get one or more of these for participating in the PTR? Here’s the thing: You can always choose to not participate, especially if it sucks.

MincMincMinc · January 28

sans-culottes wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Its not supposed to be the most fun youve ever had in a game.

Right, surely the AAA game studio can at least give us some Hakeijos or something for our literal work.

Agreed, so instead of complaining about the test that will happen no matter what and be fine, we should be asking about the rewards to be changed. They will be more likely to listen to positive suggestions than someone screaming into a blackhole.

- Telvar
- Respec tokens
- alliance tokens
- eso+ month
- unique mount
- alchemy mats
- crown crates
- gold mats
- Title

So you should get one or more of these for participating in the PTR? Here’s the thing: You can always choose to not participate, especially if it sucks.

Sure, but then you wont have ground to stand on in a year when you want to complain about performance.

sans-culottes · January 28

You can complain about performance without participating in the paid test realm. The “paid” part is, of course, not suggesting that participants should be paid.

xylena_lazarow · January 28

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Sure, but then you wont have ground to stand on in a year when you want to complain about performance.

Won't stop them, and when they say they aren't paid game testers, their stance is still 100% valid.

MincMincMinc · January 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Sure, but then you wont have ground to stand on in a year when you want to complain about performance.

Won't stop them, and when they say they aren't paid game testers, their stance is still 100% valid.

I just don't agree with not helping, throwing tantrums, and then still demanding change. Its not a 1 way street, we need zos and they need us. Asking for "payment" or rewards is fine, but its unrealistic to ask ZOSeso to hire 2x-3x their company for playtesters that have no idea of how to play the game. The test requires the players that are in here daily for the test to be representative by any degree.

Agree to disagree I guess. Pointless to argue if people just want to be mad and vent their frustrations. I think its unreasonable, you obviously don't.

xylena_lazarow · January 28

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Its not a 1 way street, we need zos and they need us.

It's most definitely a 1 way street. Nobody needs ESO. We are customers who can take our engagement and money elsewhere if the product does not meet our demands. The relationship is transactional and we do not owe ZOS anything.

MincMincMinc · January 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Its not a 1 way street, we need zos and they need us.

It's most definitely a 1 way street. Nobody needs ESO. We are customers who can take our engagement and money elsewhere if the product does not meet our demands. The relationship is transactional and we do not owe ZOS anything.

Like I said, agree to disagree. I think its unreasonable and blown way out of proportion to what is being asked of the user base. If you don't like the idea of testing, don't participate and don't complain at the results.

xylena_lazarow · January 28

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Like I said, agree to disagree. I think its unreasonable and blown way out of proportion to what is being asked of the user base. If you don't like the idea of testing, don't participate and don't complain at the results.

We do agree there should be more incentive, so perhaps that's what we should focus these threads on. ZOS wants us to effectively act as pro game testers for a week. I loved the faction token idea someone had.

MincMincMinc · January 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Like I said, agree to disagree. I think its unreasonable and blown way out of proportion to what is being asked of the user base. If you don't like the idea of testing, don't participate and don't complain at the results.

We do agree there should be more incentive, so perhaps that's what we should focus these threads on. ZOS wants us to effectively act as pro game testers for a week. I loved the faction token idea someone had.

Well i guess, what is good enough compensation in your mind? Would 1m ESO+ (15$) be enough? How many hours of testing on average do you think a player may need to participate in to achieve this? Should we consider this payment as post tax pay? Average US minimum wage?

You know what are the upper and lower bounds of acceptable incentives? Easier to close in the argument so we both arrive at a reasonable incentive?

karthrag_inak · January 28

At this point, after it has been stated so many times that this is a test only, khajiit thinks that anyone who posts as if this mode is an intended long term game mode should be considered trolling.

robpr · January 28

As a sidenote, having a template campaign with some weird stuff from time to time as a micro-event could be interesting. Cyro did not get anything new since hammer.

Sallymen · January 29

A whole lot of complaining for a whole lot of nothing, basically sums up Cyrodill alright.

Vengeance is a campaign they should have added a long time ago and glad they have added it regardless. A campaign that limits you on your class ability is something I've wanted for a long time and it looks like people wont be relying on traditional ball groups, or sets from paid content, this is a good thing. A level playing field.

Kaysha · January 29

I think it is quite reasonable to think the combat dev team is running low on resources.
And keeping this in mind we have to admit that this patch is a huge sign of dedication towards cyrodiil PvP.

Thanks ZOS for focussing on Cyrodiil. I keep my fingers crossed.

Surgee · February 2

JustLovely wrote: »

n333rs wrote: »

like at the moment it isn't at its best but doing nothing at all is substantially more preferable to this vengeance nonsense like im concerned that this won't be totally scrapped despite the extreme amount of negative feedback. There is nothing good in vengeance you're literally a companion made playable. It is horrid.

Couldn't agree more.

I don't like anything about this new play mode for Cyrodiil.

Why isn't ZOS working on balancing the Cyrodiil we already have? They could remove a few of the most calculation intensive sets and limit cross healing and shield stacking for groups, which is something we've been asking for for years and they have yet to so much as even try it out and see if that would be enough to improve performance.

Implementing this special play mode will isolate PvP from PvE entirely so PvP players will have no reason to PvE at all, ever. Some of the PvE community thinks this is a good idea, but they have no idea how integral PvP is to ESO.

Here's an idea from another game that fixed the unkillable people issue, which is a plague in ESO and make most not want to play aside from few "pros":

- Make shields mitigate 30% of incoming damage, instead of completely stopping it, and reduce your damage done by 30%. This should be a situational skill that's a tradeoff between survival and dealing damage
- replace defense number in armors with flat % of damage reduction and damage output gain.
- Light armour -20% damage reduction, +20% damage output gain
- medium armour -30% damage reduction +10% damage output gain
- heavy armour -40%.damage reduction 0% damage output gain
- these are not per piece, but a global armour weight category for your character.
- your armour category equals to the single heaviest armour piece you wear. This means if you run 6 light and 1 heavy, you'll be in heavy category and have damage reduction of -40% and 0% damage gain. This is to prevent unnecessary calculations, prevent broken builds, and make things simple to understand.
- remove penetration stat all together.

This will create a clear separation between being tanky and having lower damage, Vs being being squishy but having big damage. Right now damagers run with infinite shields, crazy armour, infinite resources, and hit for 15k damage unless you join the broken builds club.

CrazyKitty · February 2

JustLovely wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Nothing from vengeance is going to make it to live. It's a test. We don't need to panic.

To some extent, it will test whether players are interested in template PvP or not. Yes I get that performance is the priority, but it's okay to give feedback that I'm not interested in template PvP as a concept. This is a feedback thread.

Did you watch the live stream they did? They are absolutely not interested in killing builds and going template only

I learned a long time ago to watch what they do and essentially disregard what they say. Far too often they have turned out to not be the same thing.

Same. We'll see how this plays out, but it seems like the decision has already been made to go with a new stripped down version of Cyrodiil rather than make a concerted effort to fix the cyrodiil we already have, and that is sad.

sans-culottes · February 2

CrazyKitty wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Nothing from vengeance is going to make it to live. It's a test. We don't need to panic.

To some extent, it will test whether players are interested in template PvP or not. Yes I get that performance is the priority, but it's okay to give feedback that I'm not interested in template PvP as a concept. This is a feedback thread.

Did you watch the live stream they did? They are absolutely not interested in killing builds and going template only

I learned a long time ago to watch what they do and essentially disregard what they say. Far too often they have turned out to not be the same thing.

Same. We'll see how this plays out, but it seems like the decision has already been made to go with a new stripped down version of Cyrodiil rather than make a concerted effort to fix the cyrodiil we already have, and that is sad.

So you’re saying they are deliberately misleading people?

Kamchuk · February 3

I would be happy if as a reward for testing Vengeance, they gave me a costume that said: "I Tested the Vengeance Campaign and All I Got Was This Tee-Shirt".

I inherently understand the purpose of this test and I guess it is because of my computer background. In my opinion, the current Cyro GH campaign is broken. Any attempt to bring it back to its origins without lag/performance issues is worth my time. And the only way to "fix" it is to strip it down to the basic, bare bones functionality, find out if it works at that point, then start adding "stuff" back in to find where the breakage is. The more people that do this, the better the data.

Cyro has always been the highlight of this game because it requires you to constantly improve yourself to keep up. I took a year off and came back and found myself way behind. It took me a while to catch up to where I can once again hold my own in a fight and contribute to my teammates. What I have found in Vengeance is that I had to relearn how to fight all over again but using the basic Templar skills. At first, I was very frustrated. But I have started to like it more and more because I can no longer depend on CP, Passives, and most importantly: ARMOR. It's just me vs. the other player(s). And I can appreciate the unique Templar Class again.

I don't want to keep the status quo. I enjoy the game too much. I see the Vengeance Campaign as a means to bring it back to what the original design concept was: Massive numbers of players, fighting massive battles, with war game strategies and tactics, and with 24 player groups. I have been on the PTS and plan to be there when it gets to Live. I hope others will seize this opportunity. It just may be the last.

reazea · February 3

sans-culottes wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Nothing from vengeance is going to make it to live. It's a test. We don't need to panic.

To some extent, it will test whether players are interested in template PvP or not. Yes I get that performance is the priority, but it's okay to give feedback that I'm not interested in template PvP as a concept. This is a feedback thread.

Did you watch the live stream they did? They are absolutely not interested in killing builds and going template only

I learned a long time ago to watch what they do and essentially disregard what they say. Far too often they have turned out to not be the same thing.

Same. We'll see how this plays out, but it seems like the decision has already been made to go with a new stripped down version of Cyrodiil rather than make a concerted effort to fix the cyrodiil we already have, and that is sad.

So you’re saying they are deliberately misleading people?

If they were would it be the first time?

loosej · February 3

reazea wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Nothing from vengeance is going to make it to live. It's a test. We don't need to panic.

To some extent, it will test whether players are interested in template PvP or not. Yes I get that performance is the priority, but it's okay to give feedback that I'm not interested in template PvP as a concept. This is a feedback thread.

Did you watch the live stream they did? They are absolutely not interested in killing builds and going template only

I learned a long time ago to watch what they do and essentially disregard what they say. Far too often they have turned out to not be the same thing.

Same. We'll see how this plays out, but it seems like the decision has already been made to go with a new stripped down version of Cyrodiil rather than make a concerted effort to fix the cyrodiil we already have, and that is sad.

So you’re saying they are deliberately misleading people?

If they were would it be the first time?

The last "test" happened shortly after they finished upgrading the servers. It was supposed to be a stress test to see what the new infrastructure could handle, so pop caps were increased massively. Everyone was having fun, and assuming that pop caps after the test would be higher than before.

They ended up even lower. Turned out they (and we, the paying customers) were testing the new infrastructure allright, but apparently not to improve Cyrodiil.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, join the test, and give feedback. But my expectation is to be disappointed yet again.

But like I said before, this is an occasion where I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

JustLovely · February 3

loosej wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Nothing from vengeance is going to make it to live. It's a test. We don't need to panic.

To some extent, it will test whether players are interested in template PvP or not. Yes I get that performance is the priority, but it's okay to give feedback that I'm not interested in template PvP as a concept. This is a feedback thread.

Did you watch the live stream they did? They are absolutely not interested in killing builds and going template only

I learned a long time ago to watch what they do and essentially disregard what they say. Far too often they have turned out to not be the same thing.

Same. We'll see how this plays out, but it seems like the decision has already been made to go with a new stripped down version of Cyrodiil rather than make a concerted effort to fix the cyrodiil we already have, and that is sad.

So you’re saying they are deliberately misleading people?

If they were would it be the first time?

The last "test" happened shortly after they finished upgrading the servers. It was supposed to be a stress test to see what the new infrastructure could handle, so pop caps were increased massively. Everyone was having fun, and assuming that pop caps after the test would be higher than before.

They ended up even lower. Turned out they (and we, the paying customers) were testing the new infrastructure allright, but apparently not to improve Cyrodiil.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, join the test, and give feedback. But my expectation is to be disappointed yet again.

But like I said before, this is an occasion where I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

Yep. Those of us who've been PvP main since the beginning have seen this cycle of events more than once before and, if it results in the same kinds of actions taken as in the past, it bodes poorly for maintaining the current Cyrodiil we log in to play.

I also agree that I'd be happier if I were proven wrong in my assumption. But we know the history and it's not good.

necro_the_crafter · February 3

Network test usually heavily relies on community help, big studios like fromsoftware doing such test before games launches, they did it with DSR where they invited players to stress the servers, they did it with ER, and will do with ER:Nightraingh.

ZoS call for network test is a bit late, but still welcomed by many. I hope that data collected during said test will result in some vital insight into ways to make PvP expirience better for everyone.

Btw sacbones is horrible. Rework sacbones. NOW. Just press the button. Go on, just press the "rework button" and end the suffering of people trying to use this horrid ability.